The disappointing pass rush

[Success]

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

[Nephilim17]

Miller comes back and Jones is healthy. That's it. We have no cash to sign a good FA and we can't use draft capital — yet again — on a d-lineman as the offense (line and playmers) is the priority. 

Unless we hit on a 5th-round pick or something, we're rolling with what we have. If Miller is healthy and still in shape it should be OK, maybe not great, but OK next year.

[bills6969]

The pass rush is the single weakest link on this team.  Without Miller,  it’s downright bad. Oliver, Boogie, Rousseau and Epenesa have been disappointing.  Rousseau has shown flashes so I’m not totally giving up on him yet.  The others, especially Oliver with his cap hit,  are deadweight.

[DCofNC]

1 minute ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

It’s been obvious there’s not a difference maker on the line for a long time.  Miller was a help, but obviously, you rolled the dice on an older player on the decline and lost.   Quite honestly, this team needs to have the whole D revamped and the assets moved to the offense.  If you don’t support what’s making you great, you’re going to lose.  I’d personally looked at:

 

Edmunds walks (try to sign and trade, but I don’t see it happening)

Oliver, try to trade to clear that cap hit. Worst case, don’t resign.

 

Poyer, gone- old and injuries, love the guy, but gotta rip the band-aid off.

Hyde is back this year, gone next. 
 

Benford to SS

 

Elam has to be CB #1 or 2 depending on what happens to White.  If Tre comes back, cool, if not, I’m not shocked.

 

Tre… prove it year, may need to take a pay cut or a hike, can’t play like he did this year and get paid big money.   If he can’t get his speed back up, he’s not going to make it. 
 

Must find LB depth and ideally a more impactful starter to play along side Milano. 
 

DL is going to have to be what it is, the rotation means there is no point in paying for big time players, unless Beane is going to make a shift in mindset. 
 

 

 

[whorlnut]

2 minutes ago, bills6969 said:

The pass rush is the single weakest link on this team.  Without Miller,  it’s downright bad. Oliver, Boogie, Rousseau and Epenesa have been disappointing.  Rousseau has shown flashes so I’m not totally giving up on him yet.  The others, especially Oliver with his cap hit,  are deadweight.

Definitely disappointing but I still blame coaching. These guys didn’t just forget how to play football. They are put into bad situations. Just like last year we all thought a first round corner would help avoid another 13 second disaster. Well…no one wanted to put the blame on the coaches that rushed 3 and kept the corners off the ball. It was coaching, not personnel. 
 

I agree that the personnel on offense needs upgraded, but I equally think that a new DC and scheme could make the guys we already have on d more than serviceable. 

[Yobogoya!]

Whiffing on three pass rushers in a row is a huge red flag. Can we even identify this type of player? Groot is the only reliably decent rusher we’ve got but he hasn’t shone up as anything close to elite. 
 

How much more in draft picks or dollars can we even invest in this position? And can we even trust those judging the talent those resources are used on? 

[US Egg]

More disappointed with the injured Bengals O-lineman that didn’t play.

 

Maybe, just maybe, if they did play, it be a different story today……🧐

Edited January 23, 2023 by I am the egg man

[colin]

7 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Definitely disappointing but I still blame coaching. These guys didn’t just forget how to play football. They are put into bad situations. Just like last year we all thought a first round corner would help avoid another 13 second disaster. Well…no one wanted to put the blame on the coaches that rushed 3 and kept the corners off the ball. It was coaching, not personnel. 
 

I agree that the personnel on offense needs upgraded, but I equally think that a new DC and scheme could make the guys we already have on d more than serviceable. 

 

agree,

 

the fact that our guys are platooned, we've put so much money and so many picks into it, and they get figured out snap 1 and never adjust tells me they are not put in a position to win vs good teams.

 

we need more size and power obv, but getting ultra trucked every year w different lineups is not a pure player issue.

[SCBills]

Hard to generate pass rush when the QB gets rid of the ball to elite playmakers in 2.5 seconds and you play off coverage most of the game.

 

Regardless, the DL is a problem.

 

Von Miller, Greg Rousseau and Daquan Jones are the only guys worth keeping. 

 

Get Oliver and his cap hit off this team.  He, in no way, should be in the plans moving forward so trade him while we can. 

[dorquemada]

A DL to keep us from getting any further.  Look fearsome against terrible teams, fade away against tougher teams, get weaker as the year goes on, can't play in the elements

[Gunsgoodtime]

McBean needs to be put on notice for not only using all the draft capital and FA money used on the DLine, but failing at it as well.  All those 1,2,3rd round draft picks, where are they?  They are invisible on the field and could have been used to help protect Josh and give him his much needed weapons.  Yet with our already failure on our top paid DL investment, they double down on Defense again resulting in us having a not so great OL and downgrades at the WR positions.  We literally promoted Mckenzie and Davis because we didn't replace what we lost.  It was an immediate downgrade and failure on McBean part

[Billz4ever]

27 minutes ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

Our D-line can be summed up this way: Our line is quantity over quality when it needs to be quality over quantity.

[Jerome007]

Not only pas rush! They couldn't stop the run. They were psuhed around like juniors. DLine and coaches are why the Bills got blown out yesterday.

[Radar]

Both lines are bad. You can only do so much n one off season. Improve O line and #2 legit wideout.

[Donuts and Doritos]

27 minutes ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

 

Score more points than they do. We've invested tons into this already. Time to switch strategies & build up the Offensive arsenal w/ every single weapon we can get. Trade, draft, beg, borrow, steal. We need All the Weapons. Make the other team play catch up like Cincy & the Chiefs do to us. As for the D, it's time for a scheme change, cause same old same old doesn't work, take a page of Cincy's creative D play calling, hire one of their young assistants to be the new D coordinator.

[Eastport bills]

This D-line is not good enough to control a physical O-line and tough rbs. The defensive scheme with limited blitzing gets no pressure and exposes a weak secondary. When you have a slow track like snow games, everything is pronounced. Beane has failed to improve our D-line and now faces cap limitations. I wish I could say yesterday’s game was an element of exhaustion and an aberration, but sadly our coaches and players were exposed.

[NoSaint]

50 minutes ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

unfortunately, second rounders are not elite prospects at DL. 
 

we have Ed O, Rousseau and an injured VM. We need another elite rusher, even if a short term rental. 

[foreboding]

Listen, you might feel a tad better.

 

[Process]

Of course he's optimistic. He got a team to give him a $120M contract at 33 years old.

[WEATHER DOT COM]

Me too.

 

The 2022-2023 Bills should be celebrated. I'll never forget this team and the emotional turmoil they went through this year was beyond anything one could have predicted.

 

After the Hamlin injury the predominant thought was the rest of the season doesn't even matter as long as Damar is okay. Can't help but think some of those thoughts seeped into the minds of the players to the detriment of their play on the field - though, it likely improved their mental health off the field. A psychological catch-22.

 

Go Bills

[Hebert19]

Me too.   We needed this for people to realize that what Chris simms has been saying for 2 years is right.  The supporting cast around Josh isn't good enough.  

 

Now let's make some changes and get back at it.  

[dorquemada]

well, he's not gassed

[Gunsgoodtime]

Beane, the light is coming on, are you awake or do you heavily draft D this year once again and get fired at the end of the year?  It woukd be rightfully so if thats the case

[Returntoglory]

Horrible scheme by Frazier.

[B-Large]

17 minutes ago, foreboding said:

Listen, you might feel a tad better.

 

 

Von Miller has been here before, with the Broncos.  in 2015 without a Star Wars offense anymore, the Defense he was on was vicious and dragged that team to a ring. 

 

What is Wade Phillips up to these days?  I'd love to see a creative, vicious Defense here.... 

9 minutes ago, dorquemada said:

well, he's not gassed

 

 

LOL.... that's gonna be a thing for a LONG time now.... 

Edited January 23, 2023 by B-Large

[Slack_in_MA]

13 minutes ago, WEATHER DOT COM said:

Me too.

 

The 2022-2023 Bills should be celebrated. I'll never forget this team and the emotional turmoil they went through this year was beyond anything one could have predicted.

 

After the Hamlin injury the predominant thought was the rest of the season doesn't even matter as long as Damar is okay. Can't help but think some of those thoughts seeped into the minds of the players to the detriment of their play on the field - though, it likely improved their mental health off the field. A psychological catch-22.

 

Go Bills

I think they lost just enough of their edge and "killer instinct" coming off the Hamlin injury to make a difference. I bet more than a few of them have been just emotionally spent the past few weeks, on top of the coaching and talent inadequacies.

[IndyMark]

Do people firmly believe Miller will return to the Bills next season in time to help or have impact?  What is the timeline for an ACL tear / rehab / return again? 

 

Did we just not observe the Tre White "return"; plus Miller is older?

 

If we bank on Miller having impact next season I must have missed something.  We need immediate help, out of the gate next season...sure him returning week 13, 14, 15 or whatever could be ideal but that is pretty late in the year.

[B-Large]

1 minute ago, IndyMark said:

Do people firmly believe Miller will return to the Bills next season in time to help or have impact?  What is the timeline for an ACL tear / rehab / return again? 

 

Did we just not observe the Tre White "return"; plus Miller is older?

 

If we bank on Miller having impact next season I must have missed something.  We need immediate help, out of the gate next season...sure him returning week 13, 14, 15 or whatever could be ideal but that is pretty late in the year.

 

he said 9 months, that puts him at August, around training camp.

 

IMHO, Von was a luxury primarily acquired to make those 8-10 plays in the playoffs that change a game in your favor.   at 34 old body coming off multiple ACL's injuries, I think his role will be the same.  He will play all season, but they will keep him on a snap count more so.  I'd be worried if we think a 34 year old Von is going to invigorate that pass rush next year, week in and week out.  

 

He was missed, but I don't think this team was prepared to make a run at anything this offseason.... lucky we played a 3rd sting QB at home to win one game.

 

 

[somnus00]

Jerry Hughes had his best year since 2014 (9 sacks this year, 10 in 2014). There is context to look at here, but this is telling. The Bills current defensive staff does not know how to use/develop DEs.

Edited January 23, 2023 by somnus00

[Robert Paulson]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

It’s been obvious there’s not a difference maker on the line for a long time.  Miller was a help, but obviously, you rolled the dice on an older player on the decline and lost.   Quite honestly, this team needs to have the whole D revamped and the assets moved to the offense.  If you don’t support what’s making you great, you’re going to lose.  I’d personally looked at:

 

Edmunds walks (try to sign and trade, but I don’t see it happening)

Oliver, try to trade to clear that cap hit. Worst case, don’t resign.

 

Poyer, gone- old and injuries, love the guy, but gotta rip the band-aid off.

Hyde is back this year, gone next. 
 

Benford to SS

 

Elam has to be CB #1 or 2 depending on what happens to White.  If Tre comes back, cool, if not, I’m not shocked.

 

Tre… prove it year, may need to take a pay cut or a hike, can’t play like he did this year and get paid big money.   If he can’t get his speed back up, he’s not going to make it. 
 

Must find LB depth and ideally a more impactful starter to play along side Milano. 
 

DL is going to have to be what it is, the rotation means there is no point in paying for big time players, unless Beane is going to make a shift in mindset. 
 

 

 

can't disagree here- i am especially done with Edmunds- rarely makes the right choice in coverage -i believe it was the first TD drive yesterday where he left the WR alone(looked to be his man as no one else was interested in covering him)  to double team someone sitting in the short zone- it was downhill from there. not worth $18M+just to fail in the playoffs

[nosejob]

3 hours ago, bills6969 said:

The pass rush is the single weakest link on this team.  Without Miller,  it’s downright bad. Oliver, Boogie, Rousseau and Epenesa have been disappointing.  Rousseau has shown flashes so I’m not totally giving up on him yet.  The others, especially Oliver with his cap hit,  are deadweight.

The pass rush is bad because of being stubborn and only rushing fo. It's the philosophy that sucks as well as the lack of adaptation. Frazier is stubborn and stale.

It's simple math. 4 against 6 and a back. Put Shaq or Boogie inside once in a while. Have the ends stunt inside the Guards.

 

Blitz your LBs....not named Edmunds.

It ain't rocket science. Rushing 4 while playing a stupid soft zone and expecting pressure is idiotic.

 

Not to mention soft zone cancels out playing nickel cause it stops nothing and begs the other team to run on us. I'm so sick of Frazier's defense. We are going nowhere as long as he is here. He couldn't get a joint fired up. Looked like a lifeless smurf yesterday.

Edited January 23, 2023 by nosejob

[Niagara Dude]

3 hours ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

Missing Jones and Philips being injured played a huge part in this.  No pushing the pocket allowed Burrows to step up.  This is why I would consider trading Oliver and having another 300pounder plus DT. Oliver does not makes enough negative plays to play him big money.

 

[ddaryl]

The game is won and lost in the trenches. 

You may win in the regular season but you ain't winning in the post season with porous line play.  Lots of injuries on the DL skewed that side a bunch... BUT the OL is just a gigantic swing and a miss.... 

[JMM]

Hmm, can a pass rush be helped by creativity? Like disguised blitzes, stunts, aggressiveness? Did anybody watch Cinci and what they did yesterday? But let's stick with Frazier and the rush 4 vanilla. He looks like he is semi comatose on the sidelines, and his D plays like that at times.

[LabattBlue]

Where is good ole’ AKC when you need him.  He will gladly explain why another DL should be drafted instead of a WR. 

 

😂😂😂

[LanderPoke]

3 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Not only pas rush! They couldn't stop the run. They were psuhed around like juniors. DLine and coaches are why the Bills got blown out yesterday.

 D line couldn't lay a finger on the RB, much less the QB! It was an embarrassment.

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, Success said:

Yesterday was a real eye-opener - but we've seen it ever since Miller went down.  The Bengals were missing 3 out of 5 starting O-linemen, and our pass rush was still anemic.

 

They were saying in the post-game how outside of Miller, we don't have 1 guy in the top 40.

 

And we've also seen that many SB champs have this as a strength.  Think of the Bucs line from 2 years ago, or the Rams last year.  Multiple players who are good or great at getting to the passer.

 

How do the Bills fix this?  It feels like they have made every investment they can make - high draft picks, getting the best pass rusher in FA.  It's a glaring weakness.

 

 

Fire Bean, and stop drafting for positional need.  Taking Roseau and Basham led to passing up on 2 pro-bowl caliber G/Gs.  (leading to need on OL).  

25 minutes ago, JMM said:

Hmm, can a pass rush be helped by creativity? Like disguised blitzes, stunts, aggressiveness? Did anybody watch Cinci and what they did yesterday? But let's stick with Frazier and the rush 4 vanilla. He looks like he is semi comatose on the sidelines, and his D plays like that at times.

 

if Frazier is not fired, I'm not watching next year.  The same result will happen when you play a talented and well coached offense, like what happens in the post-season.  

 

 

[LanderPoke]

27 minutes ago, JMM said:

Hmm, can a pass rush be helped by creativity? Like disguised blitzes, stunts, aggressiveness? Did anybody watch Cinci and what they did yesterday? But let's stick with Frazier and the rush 4 vanilla. He looks like he is semi comatose on the sidelines, and his D plays like that at times.

Agree. Not much creativity with our defense.

[dorquemada]

2 minutes ago, LanderPoke said:

Agree. Not much creativity with our defense.

 

Come on that's not fair.  It takes a genius to have CBs be at least 10 yards away from all eligible receivers at all times. 

[Jerry Jabber]

Since McDermott became HC, the Bills had seven 1st round picks and five of those were used on defense. On the D-line alone, two 1st round picks [Oliver, Rousseau] and two 2nd round picks [Epeneza, Basham] were used and they all failed to make an impact yesterday. I know Miller, Jones and Hyde were out, but with the amount of high round picks used on the D-line, those guys should have made an impact and they couldn’t do 💩 against a Bengals O-line missing three starters.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Jerry Jabber