Rules question: Illegal block to the back

[ngbills]

Off topic but it also seems new this year to see the play-clock go well past 0 or there is a perfectly timed time out right at 0. Maybe I have PTSD from the Fins this weekend literally doing it every play. But notice it in other games as well. Much more than I can remember from past years. And what genius came up with a concept that zero does not mean zero and there is some flexibility? They would not do that on the game clock. If it is hiked after 0 then its a delay, pretty simple. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

Off topic but it also seems new this year to see the play-clock go well past 0 or there is a perfectly timed time out right at 0. Maybe I have PTSD from the Fins this weekend literally doing it every play. But notice it in other games as well. Much more than I can remember from past years. And what genius came up with a concept that zero does not mean zero and there is some flexibility? They would not do that on the game clock. If it is hiked after 0 then its a delay, pretty simple. 

it also happened repeatedly against Indy in the WC game in '21

[LABILLBACKER]

I'm seeing less and less clips called on offensive plays. The only time I see them is on ST.

[TC in St. Louis]

Andrews was gonna catch up and tackle the guy.  The block from behind took him out of the play.  Should've been a penalty.  The Bengals would've had the ball in good field position and had to earn the victory by scoring something.  

 

Anybody remember when Darrick Holmes fumbled against the 49ers on Sunday Night Football?  At the goal line, and returned 99 yards to turn the game around.  

[Doc]

That’s why they should allow more things to be reviewed. 

[ngbills]

Funny - Bengal player also threw his hands in the air after the illegal block saying "I didnt do that". Usually a dead give away. 

[Sierra Foothills]

56 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

has it stopped blocks in the back?

 

how many players have missed games because they got blown up in the back?

 

In this discussion a distinction has to be made between players being pushed or even nudged in the back and what could happen if there were no restrictions on blocking from behind.

 

Yes you're right the rule has not stopped the pushes and nudges but it certainly has eliminated high speed, high impact blocks in the back.

 

The rule exists for player safety to prevent hits that could injure players.

 

If backside/blindside contact were permitted it would be open season on defensive players.

 

Also do you really believe the game would be improved by allowing offensive players to blindside block their opponents? Should American Football also legalize holding?

[Golden*Wheels]

Same thing happened this year, I think in a Giants game...the answer basically was...'it was away from the play/it couldn't have affected it' which once you go to that kind of grey area....just another one they can call whenever they want, or don't.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Golden*Wheels

[1stgm1993]

2 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

Then how do you explain that soft DPI call on Tre that extended the Dolphins lone actual drive?

I think that was a makeup call for us hitting the qb at the sideline (didn't need a penalty there either since he was in bounds)

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

In this discussion a distinction has to be made between players being pushed or even nudged in the back and what could happen if there were no restrictions on blocking from behind.

 

Yes you're right the rule has not stopped the pushes and nudges but it certainly has eliminated high speed, high impact blocks in the back.

 

The rule exists for player safety to prevent hits that could injure players.

 

If backside/blindside contact were permitted it would be open season on defensive players.

 

Also do you really believe the game would be improved by allowing offensive players to blindside block their opponents? Should American Football also legalize holding?

i was referring to kick/punt returns only

[Bob Jones]

2 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said:

Should American Football also legalize holding?

Im old school. What Id like to see is that no one, offense or defense, can put their arms out to block (like all offensive linemen do) or hinder movement (like defensive players do). IOW, nobody can put their hands on another player except to tackle someone. Remember in the old days when linemen had to have their arms in, hands at their heart, with fists closed, to block somebody? The latter sure would eliminate all of the illegal holding, which we know goes on every play, and is called very subjectively.

[Goin Breakdown]

42 minutes ago, Mark Vader said:

It was an extremely rare, once-in-a-lifetime, historic play in a playoff game.

 

Do you really think the refs were going to call a penalty on that?

Cody ford has something to say about this. 

[Mark Vader]

4 minutes ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Cody ford has something to say about this. 

You think that play was similar?

[Sierra Foothills]

5 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Im old school. What Id like to see is that no one, offense or defense, can put their arms out to block (like all offensive linemen do) or hinder movement (like defensive players do). IOW, nobody can put their hands on another player except to tackle someone. Remember in the old days when linemen had to have their arms in, hands at their heart, with fists closed, to block somebody? The latter sure would eliminate all of the illegal holding, which we know goes on every play, and is called very subjectively.

 

 

Just kidding. I don't disagree with you... just assume the position like the electric football players.

 

 

[bigduke6]

keep in mind that we the viewers have the advantage of repeated slow motion replays from great angles on nearly every single play.   the refs do have a difficult job in my opinion.   i dont necessarily blame them for missed called, or bad calls unless its right in front of them.    this speaks more to the NFL needing to give them more help,  which of course will cost more $$$$,  and we all know that the NFL is hurting business wise right?

 

we want the games,  called fairly,  and consistently.   thats a tough ask when humans are involved,  especially with the speed of the game.   having to make judgment calls on plays where you cant see the play clearly and its going 100mph,  thats a tough job.

 

i imagine with the integration of legalized gambling into the NFLs product such a key motivator nowadays,  that the NFL is going to have to take a look at how refs are calling games,  and how to help them out more.   you cant have people wagering on a product that will rile them up if they lose due to bad calls by refs.   bad play by the players,  fine,  not the refs though.

Edited January 16, 2023 by bigduke6

[Sierra Foothills]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

That’s why they should allow more things to be reviewed. 

 

Belichick has said on many occasions that there should not be any restrictions on the use of replay.

 

[Doc]

Just now, Sierra Foothills said:

Belichick has said on many occasions that there should not be any restrictions on the use of replay.

 

I agree, with the caveat that a failed challenge results in something like a 10 yard loss (if the team is on offense) or gain for the opposition (if on defense).

[Sierra Foothills]

Just now, Doc said:

 

I agree, with the caveat that a failed challenge results in something like a 10 yard loss (if the team is on offense) or gain for the opposition (if on defense).

 

[BillyBilliams]

3 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

after watching all the games this weekend i can only suspect the NFL told the refs to keep the flags in their pockets unless it was something so blatantly obvious and egregious that they had to call it.   doesnt explain the block on Andrews,  but it sure explains alot of the other stuff i saw uncalled.

 

imo the Phins could have had at least 7 more delay of game penalties that werent called.  

I wish they would have done that for the Cousins roughing the passer.  That was so damn bad

[billykay]

3 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

after watching all the games this weekend i can only suspect the NFL told the refs to keep the flags in their pockets unless it was something so blatantly obvious and egregious that they had to call it.   doesnt explain the block on Andrews,  but it sure explains alot of the other stuff i saw uncalled.

 

imo the Phins could have had at least 7 more delay of game penalties that werent called.  

All weekend the refs were not calling all the ticky tacky penalties. I think that is a good thing. Others may disagree.

[bigduke6]

3 minutes ago, billykay said:

All weekend the refs were not calling all the ticky tacky penalties. I think that is a good thing. Others may disagree.

i do agree,  to a point.   its hard to decide when,  and when not to call it though.  tough job.

[Livinginthepast]

Sorry if someone else mentioned this in the thread but there was also a significant uncalled blind side block on Milano in yesterday's game. You know the kind that caused us to lose the game against the Texans 3 years ago. Milano looked like he got hit pretty hard, enough to give himself a shake when he got up. I'm all for the officials letting them play but at least have some consistency. The contacting the kicker call on the Cinci punter in the 4th Q was an absolute joke. The Kicker totally faked it. Then the Cinci kicker tried to do it again on the next punt. Gesicki yesterday was also faking. Is there no penalty for this kind of dbaggery? Unsportsmanlike conduct?

[frostbitmic]

1 hour ago, Livinginthepast said:

Sorry if someone else mentioned this in the thread but there was also a significant uncalled blind side block on Milano in yesterday's game. You know the kind that caused us to lose the game against the Texans 3 years ago. Milano looked like he got hit pretty hard, enough to give himself a shake when he got up. I'm all for the officials letting them play but at least have some consistency. The contacting the kicker call on the Cinci punter in the 4th Q was an absolute joke. The Kicker totally faked it. Then the Cinci kicker tried to do it again on the next punt. Gesicki yesterday was also faking. Is there no penalty for this kind of dbaggery? Unsportsmanlike conduct?

Dbaggery should absolutely be a penalty and bad acting fits the infraction.

 

I'd include faking an injury to give your team a breather, bad acting, flagged for Db.

 

 

[Billzgobowlin]

7 hours ago, GolfandBills said:

The officiating in the playoffs league wide  has been spotty at best 

You ain't kidding.  Can't believe how many plays had to be redone because so many late whistles in the Bills game, whether timeout or penalties.  Don't get me started on why they continue to maintain the 0 seconds on the clock no delay of game.  Refs are getting worse

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

There was a block in the back on the Dolphins last offensive play too.  Had elam not broken it up, I was ready to go ballistic. 

Really bad hold the play before their td too…I think it was a quick screen to Ahmed if I’m remembering properly 

[djp14150]

8 hours ago, simpleman said:

I just saw the highlights of the Cinci playoff game. On the winning fumble recovery, there was an obvious block to the back to a player that had caught up with the runner before he crossed the goal line. Why would that not be a penalty, it occurred before the touchdown was scored. I am beginning to get more and more confused about legal and illegal actions in the NFL. Thank You in advance for the explanation.

it was not a block in the back.  They collided and he fell. There was not a block in the back.  You are allowed to fight for position when running and block from the side.  
 

 

[BRH]

7 hours ago, TC in St. Louis said:

Andrews was gonna catch up and tackle the guy.  The block from behind took him out of the play.  Should've been a penalty.  The Bengals would've had the ball in good field position and had to earn the victory by scoring something.  

 

Anybody remember when Darrick Holmes fumbled against the 49ers on Sunday Night Football?  At the goal line, and returned 99 yards to turn the game around.  

This is the play I thought of first. I couldn’t believe it was 27 years ago because I can still see it like it was yesterday.  Gary Plummer hit Holmes and Lee Woodall returned it. 

[VaMilBill]

10 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

after watching all the games this weekend i can only suspect the NFL told the refs to keep the flags in their pockets unless it was something so blatantly obvious and egregious that they had to call it.   doesnt explain the block on Andrews,  but it sure explains alot of the other stuff i saw uncalled.

 

imo the Phins could have had at least 7 more delay of game penalties that werent called.  

Totally agree. The unfortunate thing about that is it gives the advantage to the defense. What more, it allows for the less talented team to even the playing field of the better team because they can essentially push the boundaries of the rules. 
 

I don’t really see it benefiting us too much since we don’t play man. But for a team like the dolphins playing cover 0 last weekend it was immensely helpful. Numerous holds not called on defense and a block in the back by Tyreek on Edmunds on that 4th and 8

[Orlando Tim]

10 hours ago, simpleman said:

I just saw the highlights of the Cinci playoff game. On the winning fumble recovery, there was an obvious block to the back to a player that had caught up with the runner before he crossed the goal line. Why would that not be a penalty, it occurred before the touchdown was scored. I am beginning to get more and more confused about legal and illegal actions in the NFL. Thank You in advance for the explanation.

I have not seen an official explanation but I assume it is because the officials could not be sure it was in the back and not on his side. They seemed much more reluctant to make calls unless they were sure this weekend, which is generally what I prefer actually.

[That's No Moon]

22 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

has it stopped blocks in the back?

 

how many players have missed games because they got blown up in the back?

Yes, it largely has. The ones that happen now are largely accidental and not high speed. You don't see people getting crushed from behind because people know not to do it. Imagine a punt return where blocking from behind is legal. The tackler has to break down to try to make the tackle and you have a guy who has a 50 yard head start able to unload into the middle of his back who is stopping or who has essentially stopped. The whiplash injuries would be immediate and severe.

 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

18 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Sorry if someone else mentioned this in the thread but there was also a significant uncalled blind side block on Milano in yesterday's game. You know the kind that caused us to lose the game against the Texans 3 years ago. Milano looked like he got hit pretty hard, enough to give himself a shake when he got up. I'm all for the officials letting them play but at least have some consistency. The contacting the kicker call on the Cinci punter in the 4th Q was an absolute joke. The Kicker totally faked it. Then the Cinci kicker tried to do it again on the next punt. Gesicki yesterday was also faking. Is there no penalty for this kind of dbaggery? Unsportsmanlike conduct?

 

I was getting flashbacks to Jarvis Landry on Aaron Williams. 

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, That's No Moon said:

Yes, it largely has. The ones that happen now are largely accidental and not high speed. You don't see people getting crushed from behind because people know not to do it. Imagine a punt return where blocking from behind is legal. The tackler has to break down to try to make the tackle and you have a guy who has a 50 yard head start able to unload into the middle of his back who is stopping or who has essentially stopped. The whiplash injuries would be immediate and severe.

 

 

the tackler is the guy with the full head of steam "gunning" for the returner.  as he blows past the blocker, the blocker typically only has time to push him in the back.  This shouldn't be a penalty. 

[Drew21PA]

Most boneheaded play 

 

BUT

 

goes with their luck for the season

[NewEra]

19 hours ago, djp14150 said:

it was not a block in the back.  They collided and he fell. There was not a block in the back.  You are allowed to fight for position when running and block from the side.  
 

 

They “collided”???  Pass whatever you’re smoking over here. He CLEARLY puts his hand in the upper middle of Andrews’ back and extends his left arm and pushes Andrew’s to the ground.  
 

 

 

[djp14150]

5 hours ago, NewEra said:

They “collided”???  Pass whatever you’re smoking over here. He CLEARLY puts his hand in the upper middle of Andrews’ back and extends his left arm and pushes Andrew’s to the ground.  
 

 

 

 

there feet entangle causing the trip

 

thrydont call that on pass plays. They aren’t calling that thrn.  His push was more of a stumble and he braced against him.  First contact was in the feet with both running.

[NewEra]

Just now, djp14150 said:

 

there feet entangle causing the trip

 

thrydont call that on pass plays. They aren’t calling that thrn.  His push was more of a stumble and he braced against him.  First contact was in the feet with both running.

Stop.  Just stop.  He CLEARLY pushed him in the back and extended his arm.  It’s plain as day.  

[djp14150]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Stop.  Just stop.  He CLEARLY pushed him in the back and extended his arm.  It’s plain as day.  

It’s not when I trial contact was made. Their feet also made contact. Thry colidaded and made contact on the side.

 

read the actual rule book.

Edited January 18, 2023 by djp14150

[NewEra]

26 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

It’s not when I trial contact was made. Their feet also made contact. Thry colidaded and made contact on the side.

 

read the actual rule book.

Maybe I need glasses or a bigger phone.  I don’t see their feet make contact before the block.  If it is, it can’t be more than a millisecond prior.  

[Beck Water]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:50 AM, simpleman said:

I just saw the highlights of the Cinci playoff game. On the winning fumble recovery, there was an obvious block to the back to a player that had caught up with the runner before he crossed the goal line. Why would that not be a penalty, it occurred before the touchdown was scored. I am beginning to get more and more confused about legal and illegal actions in the NFL. Thank You in advance for the explanation.

 

That was a penalty.  The refs were keeping their laundry in their pockets a lot.

[Beck Water]

39 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

It’s not when I trial contact was made. Their feet also made contact. Thry colidaded and made contact on the side.

 

read the actual rule book.

 

Their feet did not make contact.  Andrews was pushed from behind

You can see the Bengals player and Andrews feet are not entangled, he reaches out and gives him a shove.  Then he raises his arms like "what, lil ol me, I didn't shove him in the back"

 

OK, you want to read the actual rule book.  Here ya go; which part of the rule book do you believe makes this not a foul?

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2022-nfl-rulebook/#article-3.-illegal-block-by-offensive-player