TUA in Concussion Protocol Again!

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, Beast said:

If you think for one second the Bills gameplan wouldn’t have changed if Rutledge took the field I don’t know what to tell you. Heck, the Fiants passing game was every bit as good as ours was that night. And it wouldn’t have been with Jeff Rutledge taking snaps.

No, because the game plan going in was to stop the run first and foremost. I just don’t buy the premise that we got run on all game because the game plan wasn’t to stop the run but focus on containing Hostetler instead. It was the 1990 Parcells coached Giants and the entire world knew the key was to stop run. Wouldn’t have made a bit of difference if was Rutledge handing off to OJ Anderson instead. That wasn’t gonna prevent Jeff Wright from getting blown off the LOS or prevent all the missed tackles on defense. They had the ball for 40 fricken minutes and Hostetler simply wasn't the key to that. 

[Rochesterfan]

9 hours ago, Sestak4ever said:

Whether he shows signs or not, knowing his recent history the proper thing to do was evaluate him after they witnessed his head slamming off the field. 

 

No because then you are pulling players in mid game based on did he hit his head or not and not whether there appeared to be an issue. 
 

If the independent consultant has the power to pull players that get hit, but show no signs - that is going to cost players in their contract negotiations.

 

Going forward - what would Tua be worth if potentially after every sack or take down they had to pull him for a couple of plays - he would never self report and he would do everything to make it as easy as possible to get back and you are actually defeating the purpose of what they are trying to do.

 

They have rules in place and in my opinion should not deviate based on history.  The team should be evaluating the players via interactions throughout the game - they and the player have the onus to catch these types of issues if something happens.

 

Hell in NE just by looking another player knew there was an issue and got the play stopped - if Tua was showing anything why wouldn’t his teammates do the same?

 

Even if the independent pulled him for a minute after the play - that does not necessarily change what happened - a player can easily get a concussion and not show any effects for 24 hours.

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, Dr. K said:

I think I agree with you about Morse. Six concussions is not good. 

 

When I had a concussion, even after I felt completely normal months later, if I bumped my head I was as woozy as if I were back in the minutes after the concussion. 

no doubt it isn’t good.  The difference is that there’s been years in between his concussions.  Still not good,  but a better situation than Tua is facing this season

[Fan in San Diego]

19 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

Does Tua have to think of possibly retiring? I mean 3 Concussions in 1 year is pretty bad. I mean that hit people are showing looked mild at best. 

 

I think Tua should retire. 3 this close together is not good. He will get them easier and easier after this. Soon he will be drooling and eating baby food.

[LABILLBACKER]

19 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

Does Tua have to think of possibly retiring? I mean 3 Concussions in 1 year is pretty bad. I mean that hit people are showing looked mild at best. 

In all 3 concussion tackles, Tua makes little or no effort to try and keep his head up. It literally just bounces off the ground. If Josh goes down in a similar manner, you can see him try to tilt his head/ neck upward to minimize impact. Tua just goes limp and let's it bounce off the turf.  He's not long for this league. 

[benderbender]

Why bother screaming on Tua’s behalf when the NFL never finds any wrongdoing? Didn’t you get the memo to not believe your own eyes?

The NFL obviously don’t care about his health, his coach throws him back in every time, no independent observers ever catch anything, so the message is: why should you care anymore?

Edited December 31, 2022 by benderbender

[prissythecat]

5 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Why bother screaming on Tua’s behalf when the NFL never finds any wrongdoing? Didn’t you get the memo to not believe your own eyes?

The NFL obviously don’t care about his health, his coach throws him back in every time, no independent observers ever catch anything, so the message is: why should you care anymore?

What symptoms did Tua display on the field for the latest "concussion"?   Thats the key point here.  Throwing ints is not a generally accepted symptom

[AlfaBill]

On 12/28/2022 at 5:08 PM, PatsFanNH said:

Does Tua have to think of possibly retiring? I mean 3 Concussions in 1 year is pretty bad. I mean that hit people are showing looked mild at best. 

It’s 2 concussions. Right? Matt Milanos shove (which was not a penalty BTW) was a back injury 

[benderbender]

2 minutes ago, prissythecat said:

What symptoms did Tua display on the field for the latest "concussion"?   Thats the key point here.  Throwing ints is not a generally accepted symptom

You’re not wrong about symptoms, but look how hard his head hit. 

You could say hindsight is 20/20, but not when it’s someone’s job specifically to watch for it. Add to it that it already happened twice this year! You can’t tell me the NFL cares. 

[PatsFanNH]

Just now, AlfaBill said:

It’s 2 concussions. Right? Matt Milanos shove (which was not a penalty BTW) was a back injury 

They are saying 3 on the sports shows.

[transient]

On 12/29/2022 at 1:45 PM, LABILLBACKER said:

In all 3 concussion tackles, Tua makes little or no effort to try and keep his head up. It literally just bounces off the ground. If Josh goes down in a similar manner, you can see him try to tilt his head/ neck upward to minimize impact. Tua just goes limp and let's it bounce off the turf.  He's not long for this league. 

In general, watching Tua get tackled, he always looks like a helpless rag doll. Even Rob Johnson had a better sense of self preservation than he does.

[Gunsgoodtime]

13 minutes ago, AlfaBill said:

It’s 2 concussions. Right? Matt Milanos shove (which was not a penalty BTW) was a back injury 

Tua admitted after the Bills win he had a concussion in the Bills game.  He thanked Bills fans for the donations to his charity after the concussion in the game.  Miami needs to be penalized for their cover uos and actions

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

Why bother screaming on Tua’s behalf when the NFL never finds any wrongdoing? Didn’t you get the memo to not believe your own eyes?

The NFL obviously don’t care about his health, his coach throws him back in every time, no independent observers ever catch anything, so the message is: why should you care anymore?

The only thing anyone involved outside of the player cares about is whether they have evidence in a court of law that they followed established protocols. 

[Don Otreply]

On 12/28/2022 at 7:08 PM, PatsFanNH said:

Does Tua have to think of possibly retiring? I mean 3 Concussions in 1 year is pretty bad. I mean that hit people are showing looked mild at best. 

Tua is fragile, look at his injury history. Right now the Dolphins FO and HC are doing the RG3 on him, the kid needs better representation working for him.

[MJS]

1 hour ago, prissythecat said:

What symptoms did Tua display on the field for the latest "concussion"?   Thats the key point here.  Throwing ints is not a generally accepted symptom

Yeah, I agree. I am willing to throw the Dolphins and the independent observers under the bus as much as the next guy, but if Tua wasn't showing outward symptoms, and did not communicate that there was anything wrong, I'm not sure what you can do.

 

Tua needs to be more honest and tell people when he isn't feeling right. Compare this to Mitch Morse, who actually listens to his body and communicates when he isn't right. He trusts the protocol and he gets back healthy each time. He doesn't try to play through it.

 

Tua's teammates need to also speak up if they notice anything off about him in the huddle or on the field. They are closest to him and would be the one's to notice something wrong.

[rusty shackleford]

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, benderbender said:

Why bother screaming on Tua’s behalf when the NFL never finds any wrongdoing? Didn’t you get the memo to not believe your own eyes?

The NFL obviously don’t care about his health, his coach throws him back in every time, no independent observers ever catch anything, so the message is: why should you care anymore?

 

 

Is the NFL supposed to make up symptoms for the players or identify concussions when there are no signs or symptoms present?

 

Why blame the NFL for any of this?

 

Tua was tackled by a normal/routine tackle - got up with no signs of an issue.  He meet with teammates and coaches after the play - no one said or did anything to suggest he had a concussion.

 

The next day he presented with symptoms and the team put him in protocol.

 

It sounds to me like the team and the league handled it correctly.  Now if Tua had symptoms during the game and did not say something - that is 100% on him.  If he did say something and the team ignored it - that is on them.  Finally, if his teammates thought there was an issue and they did not do anything - well then shame on them for not being there for their teammate and shame on the Dolphins for their culture.

 

Unfortunately- at this time all sign directly point to everyone handled it correctly and delayed symptoms showed up post game.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

3 hours ago, benderbender said:

You’re not wrong about symptoms, but look how hard his head hit. 

You could say hindsight is 20/20, but not when it’s someone’s job specifically to watch for it. Add to it that it already happened twice this year! You can’t tell me the NFL cares. 

 

Again hitting is head is not a reason to pull the player.  The NFLPA was specific in what the independent team is looking for and just hitting you head would pull a ton of players out every game.

 

They have to show signs - motor impairment, stumbling, looking dazed, going toward 5he wrong sideline or huddle, not looking stable, ataxia, etc. and Tua showed none of that.

 

After that it is the team and the players that have to help and protect each other.  
 

That play does not show anything about if the NFL cared or not - it was a routine play in this league and was handled correctly.

 

 

[benderbender]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

Is the NFL supposed to make up symptoms for the players or identify concussions when there are no signs or symptoms present?

Considering concussion symptoms aren't always immediate, and he's already had clear concussion symptoms dismissed before, then actually was concussed; yes, I would assume they'd be watching for his head slamming on the turf. His fragile melon in particular. Are you telling me that the observers aren't looking for head contacting the ground? They're only looking for the birdies and stars to spin around above his head like a Bugs Bunny cartoon?

[DrPJax]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

Is the NFL supposed to make up symptoms for the players or identify concussions when there are no signs or symptoms present?

 

Why blame the NFL for any of this?

 

Tua was tackled by a normal/routine tackle - got up with no signs of an issue.  He meet with teammates and coaches after the play - no one said or did anything to suggest he had a concussion.

 

The next day he presented with symptoms and the team put him in protocol.

 

It sounds to me like the team and the league handled it correctly.  Now if Tua had symptoms during the game and did not say something - that is 100% on him.  If he did say something and the team ignored it - that is on them.  Finally, if his teammates thought there was an issue and they did not do anything - well then shame on them for not being there for their teammate and shame on the Dolphins for their culture.

 

Unfortunately- at this time all sign directly point to everyone handled it correctly and delayed symptoms showed up post game.

 

 

     They did not have to make up anything , that whiplash of his head off turf, FOR A PLAYER ITH TWO KNOWN CONCUSSIONS IN A SHORT SPAN THIS YEAR BY VERY SIMILAR WHIPLASH INJURIES, ESP THE TEAMS REACTION TO THE MILANO HIT WHICH TRIGGERED ALL THE CONTROVERSY, is a simple observation IF THEIR OBSERVATION PEOPLE WERE PROPERLY TRAINED and as I said in a prior solution, they have enough observers for this type of speed and impact game.  
 

     His head bounced with his occipital area slamming into the turf , exactly the mechanism involved with the Milano hit !  IF THE PROTOCOL was correctly done, he needed to be pulled into the tent or locker room after that hit and checked with  physical and cognitive testing.   IF THEY did do that, then I would say things worked as the algorithm is supposed too. He may not have had symptoms until the following day , but if they did NOT do the formal physical and cognitive exams required after the whiplash injury ( and the observers must know those who are higher risk as that’s one of the reasons for the protocol , to prevent second impact syndrome. Eg. Morse should be  watched more closely than other line players , medicine is about assessing risk as it is not an exact science like repairing a car.   Medicine HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT RISK STRATIFICATION.  WE CAN ALL AGREE AS another example a healthy childs risk of death from a certain virus  approaches zero , while a 96 year old with co morbidities is unlikely to survive the same infection). One with prior similar concussions is at higher risk and so the threshold for exam is lowered and thats just basic medicine , Med student level type analytical taught processing. 
 

     If they pulled Tua aside after the whiplash , then the system is working and it’s possible he was fine and later developed symptoms.  I may Be wrong as I didn’t watch that whole game , but I was under the impression he wasn’t examined at all after that head impact , and was only placed in the protocol after self reporting symptoms the following day. This is about player health and you don’t do the protocol SOMETIMES.  It’s with ANY  observed impact that could cause a concussion and cognitive testing is part of that.  If the NFL is stating THAT hit is not the type that needed follow up in a player with a recent history of concussions, I call BS and it’s just another example of inadequate preparation and training of observers and probably proof the observers are understaffed.   Players have to also have skin in self reporting and there has to be documented poof they are being checked at intervals ( like half time for at risk players) or asking about symptoms DID NOT  happen.   The NFL protects THE NFL BOTTOM LINE , and they usually have to keep being dragged into progress fully.  

[DJB]

Anyone know when the funeral is? 

[Malazan]

every time I see this thread on the front page again.. I think it's a new one and am like, "Oh, he must have got another one today. Did he eat his ice cream too fast?"

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, benderbender said:

Considering concussion symptoms aren't always immediate, and he's already had clear concussion symptoms dismissed before, then actually was concussed; yes, I would assume they'd be watching for his head slamming on the turf. His fragile melon in particular. Are you telling me that the observers aren't looking for head contacting the ground? They're only looking for the birdies and stars to spin around above his head like a Bugs Bunny cartoon?

 

How many players have had concussions in the NFL? How do you decide who to pull based on a routine play?

 

The NFLPA made it clear they did not want players to be targeted because it could potentially cost them money and contract length if players with previous concussions could be pulled every time they hit their head.

 

They specifically wanted the spotters looking for signs.  If there are no signs - don’t pull him and the teams and players are responsible for identifying issues afterwards.

 

 

[Sjwalker1]

I'm sure it's just like before they want to get in the playoffs and that coach just like the jets coach don't really give a dam about a player making millions of dollars to play

[Sjwalker1]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:19 AM, atlbillsfan1975 said:

If it did occur in the first half and he played the second half, shame on Miami and McDaniel. McDaniel is proving he is in over his head. 

 

On 12/27/2022 at 6:12 AM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Holy hell. If this is true what the hell happened during the game to allow him to keep playing??

 
of course mcdainels is over his head. How could any player respect a coach that is everyone's buddy plus he looks like a freaking sickly weasel on the sideline 

[The Red King]

Apparently Tua and his teammates are all it's us against the world.  He's not done!

 

He's gonna get killed at this rate.

[Nextmanup]

3 hours ago, Malazan said:

every time I see this thread on the front page again.. I think it's a new one and am like, "Oh, he must have got another one today. Did he eat his ice cream too fast?"

Well, it's now been 3 major events, separated by a handful of weeks.

 

He should have sat out the season after getting the first two so quickly in succession.

 

And so now he has the third.  He'll get the fourth even easier.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

14 hours ago, DJB said:

Anyone know when the funeral is? 

I think all they have to do is remove his spleen…,  

 

 

the funeral for Tua’s career as a starter is next year…,

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Well, it's now been 3 major events, separated by a handful of weeks.

 

He should have sat out the season after getting the first two so quickly in succession.

 

And so now he has the third.  He'll get the fourth even easier.

 

 

 

Just ask Mitch Morse

[Rochesterfan]

16 hours ago, DrPJax said:

     They did not have to make up anything , that whiplash of his head off turf, FOR A PLAYER ITH TWO KNOWN CONCUSSIONS IN A SHORT SPAN THIS YEAR BY VERY SIMILAR WHIPLASH INJURIES, ESP THE TEAMS REACTION TO THE MILANO HIT WHICH TRIGGERED ALL THE CONTROVERSY, is a simple observation IF THEIR OBSERVATION PEOPLE WERE PROPERLY TRAINED and as I said in a prior solution, they have enough observers for this type of speed and impact game.  
 

     His head bounced with his occipital area slamming into the turf , exactly the mechanism involved with the Milano hit !  IF THE PROTOCOL was correctly done, he needed to be pulled into the tent or locker room after that hit and checked with  physical and cognitive testing.   IF THEY did do that, then I would say things worked as the algorithm is supposed too. He may not have had symptoms until the following day , but if they did NOT do the formal physical and cognitive exams required after the whiplash injury ( and the observers must know those who are higher risk as that’s one of the reasons for the protocol , to prevent second impact syndrome. Eg. Morse should be  watched more closely than other line players , medicine is about assessing risk as it is not an exact science like repairing a car.   Medicine HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT RISK STRATIFICATION.  WE CAN ALL AGREE AS another example a healthy childs risk of death from a certain virus  approaches zero , while a 96 year old with co morbidities is unlikely to survive the same infection). One with prior similar concussions is at higher risk and so the threshold for exam is lowered and thats just basic medicine , Med student level type analytical taught processing. 
 

     If they pulled Tua aside after the whiplash , then the system is working and it’s possible he was fine and later developed symptoms.  I may Be wrong as I didn’t watch that whole game , but I was under the impression he wasn’t examined at all after that head impact , and was only placed in the protocol after self reporting symptoms the following day. This is about player health and you don’t do the protocol SOMETIMES.  It’s with ANY  observed impact that could cause a concussion and cognitive testing is part of that.  If the NFL is stating THAT hit is not the type that needed follow up in a player with a recent history of concussions, I call BS and it’s just another example of inadequate preparation and training of observers and probably proof the observers are understaffed.   Players have to also have skin in self reporting and there has to be documented poof they are being checked at intervals ( like half time for at risk players) or asking about symptoms DID NOT  happen.   The NFL protects THE NFL BOTTOM LINE , and they usually have to keep being dragged into progress fully.  

 

This is just wrong for the protocol.  The “whiplash” and hitting of the head has no impact on the observer deciding if they enter protocol or not.  It doesn’t matter if it is his first and he has no documented concussions or if it is Tua or Morse with documented history - the hit to the head is irrelevant- they must show some signs/symptoms for the observer to pull him.

 

Therefore; your whole premise that “IF THEIR OBSERVATION PEOPLE WERE PROPERLY TRAINED” is totally wrong.  The observers are properly trained and per the NFL and more importantly the NFLPA - the observers followed protocol correctly and there was no issue with the play.

 

Again - when Mitch Morse got his last concussion - he was not pulled by observers - he felt symptoms and self reported during the game.  There is no reason that Tua couldn’t do the same.  
 

As the NFLPA stated - the protocol was followed and there was nothing done wrong.  The NFLPA has also stated they are 100% against stratification of players to identify concussions because it will impact contracts as those players are more likely to be pulled for no reason mid-game.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

From todays Athletic, an article talking about he last big big Bills-Bengals game in 1988 playoffs.  The way the game was back then:

 

A Wil Wolford quote: I don’t really remember the game very well because in the second quarter I’m trying to make a tackle on an interception and I got knocked out cold. I remember getting ready to make a tackle and the next thing I know I’m on the ground looking up, and Joe Kelly is dancing over me like a prizefighter. He hit me from the side and I never saw it coming. I stumbled toward Cincinnati’s bench. They’re all laughing. I’m not sure who got me straight to come back over to our sideline. Back then, concussions were not an injury. I kept playing but I don’t remember much, and it was not very good.

 

Couple other interesting quotes from the article:

 

Thurman Thomas:  I remember saying to myself, “If we got this far, what can be our limit?” We got the AFC Championship Game with Jim throwing 15 touchdowns and 17 interceptions. Today, you’d be in last place!

 

This quote may explain why Boomer Esiason doesn't seem to be a real big Bills fan: At least (the Seahawks) tried doing it on the field of play as opposed to some other teams that tried to do it in the commissioner’s office and then STEAL the concept … and go on to four straight Super Bowls.

Didn't remember this but couple hours prior to kickoff Levy had petitioned the NFL to outlaw the No-Huddle

 

https://theathletic.com/4048401/2023/01/02/bills-bengals-afc-championship/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

 

 

[Saint Doug]

On 12/31/2022 at 6:42 PM, Rochesterfan said:

 

They have to show signs - motor impairment, stumbling, looking dazed, going toward 5he wrong sideline or huddle, not looking stable, ataxia, etc. and Tua showed none of that.

But do they? The Dolphins already have shown even this doesn’t cut it. So, I’m not going to rely on them to pick up subtle clues. 

[FilthyBeast]

Tua situation is very unfortunate and has essentially derailed the Dolphins season at this point.

 

Hope this kid can get healthy and better prepared in the offseason for the rigors of a 17 week NFL season because the talent is there for the Dolphins to be one of the league's truly elite teams and they were certainly on that path this season.

[Franco_92]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

Tua situation is very unfortunate and has essentially derailed the Dolphins season at this point.

 

Hope this kid can get healthy and better prepared in the offseason for the rigors of a 17 week NFL season because the talent is there for the Dolphins to be one of the league's truly elite teams and they were certainly on that path this season.

lmfao 

[Seventeen]

1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

Tua situation is very unfortunate and has essentially derailed the Dolphins season at this point.

 

Hope this kid can get healthy and better prepared in the offseason for the rigors of a 17 week NFL season because the talent is there for the Dolphins to be one of the league's truly elite teams and they were certainly on that path this season.

 

Better prepared in the offseason for the inevitable concussions ? What would you suggest he do ? 

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Saint Doug said:

But do they? The Dolphins already have shown even this doesn’t cut it. So, I’m not going to rely on them to pick up subtle clues. 

 

Yes they do.  Even the NFLPA agreed that protocols were followed in the Bills game.  He stumbled - they tested him for a concussion and he passed - they used an additional loophole to get him back on the field and have since closed that loophole.

 

If they show no signs the independent team should not be responsible for pulling the player.  If they show no signs on the field it becomes important for the player, his teammates, and the coaching and training staff to help identify a situation.

 

Again - even in the GB game the NFLPA found nothing wrong and they have the most to gain.  
 

Things happen and symptoms develop sometimes 2 or 4 or even 24 hours later - how teams handle it at that point when presented is the key.

 

 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Tua situation is very unfortunate and has essentially derailed the Dolphins season at this point.

 

Hope this kid can get healthy and better prepared in the offseason for the rigors of a 17 week NFL season because the talent is there for the Dolphins to be one of the league's truly elite teams and they were certainly on that path this season.

 

The Elite Dolphins didnt lose 4 straight because of a Tua concussion.  They lost 4 straight because they werent playing the Chicago's of the world.  The only path they were on is taking some teams by surprise before they got figured out and playing bad teams after they got figured out.

[Playoffs?]

The dolphins leadership cannot afford to miss the playoffs after an 8-3 start. I would be very shocked to see Tua not cleared for next Sunday’s game.

[Scott7975]

6 minutes ago, Playoffs? said:

The dolphins leadership cannot afford to miss the playoffs after an 8-3 start. I would be very shocked to see Tua not cleared for next Sunday’s game.

 

I could still see Miami losing to the Jets. That D is legit.  Just need White to not turn over the football.

[Saint Doug]

28 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I could still see Miami losing to the Jets. That D is legit.  Just need White to not turn over the football.

They’ll throw him around like a rag doll again. It’s really not the players fault, but I imagine someone is going to get the distinction of ending this guy’s career, perhaps in an ugly way.