Running Backs Being a Dime a Dozen ??

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Look at Bills OL and YES they would not be any better than Singletary 

 

 

Wow.  All you have to do is look at the Chiefs and the Bills.  That's damning. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

More like 12 million a dozen…

[Rochesterfan]

48 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

This is the wrong conclusion. Pierce being a 4th Rd RB doesn't prove that RBs are a dime a dozen - it proves that NFL FOs have no clue how to evaluate RBs int he modern NFL. If you did a redraft today, he'd go in the 1st round.

It's true, there are a virtually endless pile of backs that you can hand the ball off to and have them plod for a 3.0 AYC. When it comes to special backs, they're just as rare now as they've ever been - maybe more because it isn't a position in demand. With more and more WRs taking their carries and sometimes their jobs outright, maybe the true workhorse RB dies for good.

 

 

So are our RBs good or bad?

 

Singletary over 4YPC this year and career over 4.7 YPC

Moss - 5.3 YPC for the season

Cook - 5.2 YPC for the season.

 

They have better YPC than Pierce and are right in line with Hall and better than Jacobs career - although with the #1 run blocking line he is having a better year and all of that has gotten LV 1 win.

 

Give me the better QB.

 

[Perry Turtle]

The Bills running backs had 11 total carries against the Steelers in a game that was over in the 3rd quarter.  Each RB averaged 7 ypc.

 

Hell, Keenum threw the ball 5 times, while Cook carried it only 4 times.  And Cook has actually looked good the few times he carried the ball.

 

The Bills spent almost 25 years looking for a franchise QB, and now that they have him, they're not building an offense that gives a running back 20+ carries a game.

 

Daboll recognized this and Dorsey recognizes this.  The Bills are bad at running the ball?  Well that would mean something if they actually tried to run the ball.  At this point in Allen's career, the ball is staying in his hands.  RBs are nothing more supporting players in their offense.  Trade for CMC?  Sure he'll look awesome with his 8 carries a game. 

 

[JoshAllin]

Come on 26 carries for pierce? Would you rather the bills rb get in this type of rhythm or Josh and the wr's in the passing game get rhythm all game. The bills rb are not there to run the ball in case you haven't heard they're there for the illusion of a run game

[Nextmanup]

I can't believe that people still want to talk about running the football.

 

[njbuff]

Maybe it is just high time to say............

 

"With a QB like Josh Allen, you really don't need a running game"

[BullBuchanan]

22 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

So are our RBs good or bad?

 

Singletary over 4YPC this year and career over 4.7 YPC

Moss - 5.3 YPC for the season

Cook - 5.2 YPC for the season.

 

They have better YPC than Pierce and are right in line with Hall and better than Jacobs career - although with the #1 run blocking line he is having a better year and all of that has gotten LV 1 win.

 

Give me the better QB.

 

I mean duh...

YPC is a vanity metric. In isolation over a 5 game span it tells you nothing besides how many yards per carry you're getting with a player. It doesn't tell yout he how or why, which is far more useful in being able to predict the stats of other players or the same players with different inputs.

I'm not trading for McCaffery to get 1-2 more YPC. I'm trading for him hoping that I can increase the explosive plays that I generate from my offense. We already do well there overall, but we aren't very good at it from the RB position, especially early in games. If we could rely on a RB to spur our breakout instead of having to rely on Allen, it would be another dimension to our offense that also mitigates our risk when Allen isn't having a 5 star day.

[CheshireCT]

18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I can't believe that people still want to talk about running the football.

 

agreed. it's just because the media keeps poking at our running game because there's nothing to criticize. 

 

this team just needs to be able to run the ball when they have to. and as much as it would be wonderful luxury to have some elite running back added on this team, you just can't have it all. and said elite RB would likely be disgruntled and ask for a trade with his 5 carries per game.

[Rhode Island Red]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Nobody just pushes another team off the ball all game,   there has to be legitimate uncertainty in the mind of the defense and enough time between the snap (…AND WHAT??, the moment the RB does what??) to get them to commit.   You don't get that out of the gun.    For a while RPO's gave teams that but they aren't as effective any longer.   

 

 

I’m pretty sure you left out a crucial element of that sentence, am I wrong?

 

I stuck my question in there with a few CAPS, haven’t figured out how to bold when I’m on this phone yet…

Edited October 11, 2022 by Rhode Island Red

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

I mean duh...

YPC is a vanity metric. In isolation over a 5 game span it tells you nothing besides how many yards per carry you're getting with a player. It doesn't tell yout he how or why, which is far more useful in being able to predict the stats of other players or the same players with different inputs.

I'm not trading for McCaffery to get 1-2 more YPC. I'm trading for him hoping that I can increase the explosive plays that I generate from my offense. We already do well there overall, but we aren't very good at it from the RB position, especially early in games. If we could rely on a RB to spur our breakout instead of having to rely on Allen, it would be another dimension to our offense that also mitigates our risk when Allen isn't having a 5 star day.

I want an RB that single handedly makes 3rd and 3  a running down likely to succeed.  Short of that, I don't see a need. 

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, Chaos said:

I want an RB that single handedly makes 3rd and 3  a running down likely to succeed.  Short of that, I don't see a need. 

 

 

If they know you're rushing? I think that Guy's name is Derrick Henry. Other than that, I don't think people do that very much anymore.

Josh Jacobs was having a great go of it yesterday with a career day and McDaniels chose a hail mary on 4th & 1 😅

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

If they know you're rushing? I think that Guy's name is Derrick Henry. Other than that, I don't think people do that very much anymore.

Josh Jacobs was having a great go of it yesterday with a career day and McDaniels chose a hail mary on 4th & 1 😅

Well, if Derrick Henry is the only one that can do that, and I can't have Derrick Henry, then I guess I don't care what position my playmakers play.  I would rather have the closest thing to Travis Kelce available over McCafferty or Barkley. 

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

Well, if Derrick Henry is the only one that can do that, and I can't have Derrick Henry, then I guess I don't care what position my playmakers play.  I would rather have the closest thing to Travis Kelce available over McCafferty or Barkley. 

We have Travis Kelce at home. His name is Dawson and you'll like it.

I too would love to have the 1st-5th best TE to ever play the game.

[Chaos]

15 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

We have Travis Kelce at home. His name is Dawson and you'll like it.

I too would love to have the 1st-5th best TE to ever play the game.

Knox is good. But he is to Travis Kelce as Jimmy Garipola is too Josh Allen. 

[Mr. WEO]

the saying is "a dime a dozen 3rd round picks"

[Maine-iac]

The single biggest difference in our running game would appear to be Diggs.  The year he showed up we started throwing over 600 times a year and started running it closer to 400 times a year which is about 100 less carries and 100 more passes.  That said we also are scoring a lot more points so it's hard to argue with it.  I just would like see a commitment to running and closing out games to keep our WR's and QB healthy and keep carrying the ball enough that we don't become 100 percent predictable.

[Mikie2times]

It's just a bad investment. Well past 30 excellent RB's exist on this earth. Only a couple exist that truly change the game. So you're essentially playing a game of not trying to get a "hit" but trying to get a homerun. Then within that, how long of time do you get with this player if you do get a HR? They decline so rapidly and are so injury prone. It's really not just a bad investment, it's an awful one. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah, agree with this.  We both don't call many run plays and also don't run an offense where traditional run plays are ran from.  And we have still scored the most points in the NFL despite missing Davis (and him playing hurt in other games), Knox, McKenzie, and 5 of our OL at various times this year.  When our team is healthy, its playing at an unstoppable level right now, and people want to change that and take the ball out of Allens hands more, and I don't understand why.  

 

What we need is better play calling at times on short yardage...if they can clean that up, this offense has no flaws.   

 

On a side note...What is weird to me, is people will see us run with success multiple times in a game, but just focus on the couple runs that didn't work and then throw the whole run game under the bus as if its a disaster too.  Like no RB or team has success on every attempt.  But here, the board magnifies the ones that don't work and ignores that we actually run plenty of other times where we chewed big chunks or first downs.

 

 

 

The highlighted is THE THING.   It's working and Josh likes it.   I'd love it if he could get under center and run traditional play action because he would have receivers open in the intermediate and deep all game.   But Josh likes to face the defense all the time and he more than makes up for the lack of a reliable traditional running game by making spectacular throws and gashing teams with big runs.

 

I think eventually he'd benefit greatly by stepping out of his comfort zone and getting under center a lot more......this offense moves the chains and puts up points but the Pittsburgh game was unusual with all the big plays.......there are too many small plays with this style of offense and that puts a lot of mileage on him and the receivers in particular.   The Miami game was an extreme example, but it underscores the issue with this style.  That's why he averaged just 6.8 ypa last season.......a number far too low for his talents.  

 

But this season they need to be all in on winning every possible game and getting homefield so Josh being comfortable is job #1.   Next season the roster will not be as strong but if they have rings to show for this season they might not need to be as desperate for home field.

 

What's weird to ME.........when the Bills were leading the NFL in rushing AND big plays and were a high scoring offense with very little money invested in it under Tyrod Taylor..........people focused on the passing inefficiencies and there was a surprising lack of love for what they were doing on the ground.    When you have a QB like that who averages 6.5 ypa and your RB's average a relatively absurd 5.5.........you have a compelling argument to keep running the football.    You can't throw a TD pass when you've already run it in from 20 yards out.    When your QB averages 8.0+ yards per attempt......as Allen is now and should ALWAYS be......... I don't care if you have Jim Brown in his prime you are better off being very imbalanced in favor of the pass.

[Teddy KGB]

I think they run closer to 700k than a dime 

[Dablitzkrieg]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

It's all about the O line.

 

Ours sucks.

 

Relax.  Watch my Yankees tonight.  🤣

[Jackalope89]

54 minutes ago, njbuff said:

Maybe it is just high time to say............

 

"With a QB like Josh Allen, you really don't need a running game"

But when Josh IS the running game, that's not a great thing.

I, personally, am not saying our RBs are bad. But the run blocking is not helping things. Sure, sometimes they get a good play. Other times, the RBs have to make their own play, or are lucky to get to the line of scrimmage, if not get tackled for a loss.

[JoshAllin]

Last year bills fans were clamoring over different RB's

This year it's a different set of RB's and the ones from last year are nowhere to be heard from

Colts RB's avg 3.6 ypc with their OL shuffling this year

Cinci RB's avg 3.3 poor OL play

Rams RB's avg 3.2 again OL

TB RB's avg 3.1  OL

 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

I want an RB that single handedly makes 3rd and 3  a running down likely to succeed.  Short of that, I don't see a need. 

 

 

Or a RB to help your backup QB milk the lead after your starter gives you a 30 pt. advantage. 

[97bills]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The single biggest reason the Bills don't run the ball more effectively is because Josh Allen prefers to play out of the shotgun.    

 

So the people who are constantly complaining about the running game should blame Josh and demand he changes or shut up.

 

I wouldn't mind them doing more of that..........I am not a big fan of spread offense football........but that's not what Allen is right now.........he's not as comfortable under center and turning his back to the defense for traditional play action.    

 

Nobody just pushes another team off the ball all game,   there has to be legitimate uncertainty in the mind of the defense and enough time between the snap to get them to commit.   You don't get that out of the gun.    For a while RPO's gave teams that but they aren't as effective any longer.   

 

 

Yea I don’t ever see LB commit to the run win Allen dose those RPO , he snaps the ball and everyone drops in coverage lol. 

[JerseyBills]

We gotta rev that Motor

 

6 ypc last game 

Good in pass pro and receiving 

 

Career almost 5 ypc

Let him be the bell cow and sprinkle in Cook , then Moss

Edited October 11, 2022 by JerseyBills

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

I mean duh...

YPC is a vanity metric. In isolation over a 5 game span it tells you nothing besides how many yards per carry you're getting with a player. It doesn't tell yout he how or why, which is far more useful in being able to predict the stats of other players or the same players with different inputs.

I'm not trading for McCaffery to get 1-2 more YPC. I'm trading for him hoping that I can increase the explosive plays that I generate from my offense. We already do well there overall, but we aren't very good at it from the RB position, especially early in games. If we could rely on a RB to spur our breakout instead of having to rely on Allen, it would be another dimension to our offense that also mitigates our risk when Allen isn't having a 5 star day.

 

OK - so 
 

Devin Singletary over 50 games - 4.7 YPC

CMC over 63 games - 4.6 YPC

 

It is not just over a small sample size the comparison holds for well over 4 years.

 

Explosion - I get it, but Devin has had the longer run in 2 out of his 4 years  and the same with receiving 2 out of his 4 years - Singletary has the longer reception for the year. 
 

CMC does have a 1.2 yard per reception advantage for his career over 8 to nearly 7 for Devin.

 

Devin has also been significantly healthier and costs significantly less long term - although there may be savings for the rest of this year.

 

My overall point is just that whether a trade happens or not - the RB in a Buffalo offense makes very little difference.  They get very limited touches running the ball and limited passes to catch - Make the change, but expect little real overall impact.  
 

Maybe CMC could change that but he also has a history of injury that would suggest you get less than 1/2 a season before he can no longer perform to that level.

 

 

[bobobonators]

Josh Allen is arguably the greatest threat in the NFL. Why are we so focused on getting a really good, premier RB? So he can rush the ball 8-10x/game?

Does anyone here really want to see a RB take the ball away from Allen and have him rush the ball 25x/game? Allen and this passing game can score a TD from any point on the field at any moment - regardless of down or distance. Its beautiful to watch. Its unprecedented for Bills fans. Relish in it. 
 

Our franchise focus needs to be, above all, protecting Allen with a premier OL and continue giving him passing weapons. I never want to see what happened to Rodgers in GB happen to Allen where he’s throwing to a bunch of scrubs for far too long.
 

We have more than serviceable RB’s. We need to upgrade at OL and we need to improve at running the ball in short yardage. 
 

1. Protect Allen

2. provide him weapons in the pass game

3. running game just needs to be situationally functional. 
 

Wasting draft picks on a RB before the first two priorities are addressed every year would be criminal w Allen at QB. 

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

 

 Singletary, Moss and Cook average about 4.7 yards a carry this year on 77 attempts. There's 11 different RBs that have 77 carries or more. Of those 11 Henry(3.9), Mixon(3.1) & Elliott(3.8) average sub 4.0 a carry, yet they keep feeding them the ball. This is a choice, it's what both Daboll & Dorsey have elected to do with our offensive play calling. We're not running because we can't, we're not running because our QB is the most dangerous player in the game.

 

 

[bobobonators]

4 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 Singletary, Moss and Cook average about 4.7 yards a carry this year on 77 attempts. There's 11 different RBs that have 77 carries or more. Of those 11 Henry(3.9), Mixon(3.1) & Elliott(3.8) average sub 4.0 a carry, yet they keep feeding them the ball. This is a choice, it's what both Daboll & Dorsey have elected to do with our offensive play calling. We're not running because we can't, we're not running because our QB is the most dangerous player in the game.

 

 

<slow clap>

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Jackalope89 said:

But when Josh IS the running game, that's not a great thing.

I, personally, am not saying our RBs are bad. But the run blocking is not helping things. Sure, sometimes they get a good play. Other times, the RBs have to make their own play, or are lucky to get to the line of scrimmage, if not get tackled for a loss.

So you too would like better run blocking , as compared to . a feature back ?
Then we certainly agree

[Process]

1 hour ago, bobobonators said:

Josh Allen is arguably the greatest threat in the NFL. Why are we so focused on getting a really good, premier RB? So he can rush the ball 8-10x/game?

Does anyone here really want to see a RB take the ball away from Allen and have him rush the ball 25x/game? Allen and this passing game can score a TD from any point on the field at any moment - regardless of down or distance. Its beautiful to watch. Its unprecedented for Bills fans. Relish in it. 
 

Our franchise focus needs to be, above all, protecting Allen with a premier OL and continue giving him passing weapons. I never want to see what happened to Rodgers in GB happen to Allen where he’s throwing to a bunch of scrubs for far too long.
 

We have more than serviceable RB’s. We need to upgrade at OL and we need to improve at running the ball in short yardage. 
 

1. Protect Allen

2. provide him weapons in the pass game

3. running game just needs to be situationally functional. 
 

Wasting draft picks on a RB before the first two priorities are addressed every year would be criminal w Allen at QB. 

Good post, spot on. Surround josh with good protection and targets and he'll take you to the promised land.

[Wayne Arnold]

Yes they are a dime a dozen.

 

I'm shocked Beane was dumb enough to spend a 2nd rounder on one.

 

One of his few flaws is his overvaluing and misevaluating of the running back position. Could be his only flaw, we'll see.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wayne Arnold

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Relax.  Watch my Yankees tonight.  🤣

RIzzo!!!

[Chicken Boo]

8 hours ago, Airseven said:

RBs are not a dime-a-dozen, and Bills absolutely must figure out the run game/OL in order to execute in the playoffs. Go-patterns and blow-outs are fun in the regular season, but the team still has that soft underbelly. 

 

It should also be said the Bills RBs, specifically, are a dime-a-dozen which is part of the problem.   

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[Marvin]

We need the OL to be better at both run and pass blocking.  Behind a good line, JA17 will be much safer and last that much longer.  Behind a good line, average RBs can look good and good RBs can look great.

[US Egg]

JA is a QB dual dynamo threat, probably the best ever. He is the Bills best runner, probably for awhile.

 

It’s not a bad thing…..provided of course, he stays healthy.

 

If he continues as such another couple seasons and he is teetering towards greatest Bills player ever.

[T master]

20 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

So Breece Hall had 18 for 97 - pretty much exactly what Moss and Cook have done- both are at 5.3 YPC.

 

So what exactly is your point.  The difference is Hall, Pierce, Jacobs all get significantly more carries per game.  
 

I can imagine any of them on the Bills, but can you picture Jacobs or Hall after getting 10 carries a game.  I do not want to take the ball out of Josh’s hand for 20+ runs a game - Josh averages passing is double what Jacobs averages on the ground and his great running has made his team an incredible 1-4.  
 

They would not get the volume here to make a difference to the offense.  They make a difference in an offense that has a mediocre QB and you are covering for him.  
 

 

 

I just watched a thing on Rumblings that said the Bills didn't have the ball for as much time as the Steelers did & i seem to remember a SB game that the Bills lost 20-19 back in the day and because of a really good defense they were playing they lost the crux of my post to all that say don't take the ball out of Joshes hands is we must improve the run game .

 

The backs we have don't scare defensive coordinator maybe one day Cook will ? Motor is a i think really good back but needs carries to get into a rhythm like they use to & Moss isn't in any way the banger they thought he was in college or the complimentary back to Motor IMHO the complimentary back needs to be bigger .

 

Let's say 6' 230 lbs or somewhere in there . I love it as much as any one that Josh is playing the way that he does but what team that lives and dies by their passing game has been a repeated SB champion ? The last one i remember was St. Louis Rams the greatest show on turf & they only won 1 SB correct ?

 

This team just like the team in the 90's can seemingly score at will but if you watch the Scarey movie video on Rumblings it tells how long it took the Bills to score each drive .

 

1st - TD 1:04 

2nd - TD :10 

3rd - TD :33 

4th - TD 2:37 

5th - TD :57 

Total TOP - 6:07 

 

The Steelers had the ball 12:00 longer than the Bills in total so what happens that entire time the Bills offense isn't on the field our D is and just like back in the 90's if the Bills cannot sustain a drive by adding in a above average running game to give the D a blow they are going to wear out & if that is a t a crucial time say like in the SB then it's SB 25 all over again .

 

Then there are those saying our O line sucks well in some articles i have read they are praising the O lines ability to keep a clean pocket giving Josh enough time to deliver a good ball so who's right does the O line suck or is it good ?

 

Motor can bust off a run like he did & he proved last year that he can be a good back if given a chance & in a game like this last one when they are up by a 38 to 3 margin then why not get the reps in the run game don't wait until it's to late games are different than practice putting it on the field at game speed is a need .

 

If the run game isn't utilized or at the very least used to get some reps now you can bet there will be a huge number of the Bills Mafia here that are known for B**ching about McD's coaching that will be doing so if the team needed at a crucial juncture in a game to control the clock with the run game & couldn't.

 

The Bills run game id more than what the "Experts" here think that is that it's just the O line 2 of the backs need to be better when given a chance Moss in particular sure he has a decent average but he gets that from 1 big run per game Cook looked better last week & he's a rookie so it may take a bit for him to feel comfortable in the scheme .

 

But if we don't have a good running game i don't think we will have a SB win come to Buffalo no matter how much we want it and the possibility of another disappointment with out a running game is more prevalent than it would be if they had one . It would be really nice if they had a back that we knew was good for say 100 ypg if needed .

 

OK i'm done ranting sorry ... GO BILLS !!! 

[ArtVandalay]

If RBs are a dime a dozen how come this top flight offense can't find one with two 3rd rounders and a 2nd rounder?

 

Identifying RBs is a major weakness of this front office. As amazing they are with the secondary, they are equally awful at RB. It's okay, every front office has weaknesses.  NE can't draft WR, we can't draft RB.

[ArtVandalay]

On 10/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Billz4ever said:

We have the worst run block win % in the entire league (65%).  The RBs aren't the problem.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34536376/2022-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings-top-players-teams#rbwrteam

The New York Giants ar #26 at 69%.

 

Saquon Barkley is #2 in the NFL with 533 Yards Rushing and 5.5 YPC.

 

#1 Rusher in the NFL, Nick Chubb, has 593 yards and 6.1 YPC with the #17 line. 

 

#5 rusher Dameon Pierce has 412 yards (2 behind #4) and 4.8 YPC and is a rookie with the #31 line.

 

Meanwhile the #1 line in the league with James Connor rushing has only 200 yards and 3.7 YPC.

 

This only illustrates the importance of the skill of your RB, skilled RB with an NFL line will be productive. And if you don't have skill at RB you aren't going to produce.