NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

 

His head slammed the ground.  He wasnt knocked to his knees from pain, he collapased from loss of motor control.

[CountDorkula]

Does this look familiar: Not saying this si what happened but it looks identical to what Tua did last night

 

Decorticate posture is an abnormal posturing in which a person is stiff with bent arms, clenched fists, and legs held out straight. The arms are bent in toward the body and the wrists and fingers are bent and held on the chest. This type of posturing is a sign of severe damage in the brain.

 

Considerations

Decorticate posture is a sign of damage to the nerve pathway in the midbrain, which is between the brain and spinal cord. The midbrain controls motor movement. Although decorticate posture is serious, it is usually not as serious as a type of abnormal posture called decerebrate posture.

The posturing may occur on one or both sides of the body.

Edited September 30, 2022 by CountDorkula

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, Beast said:

I don’t disagree. However, a doctor should be able to see Tua stumble and fall, right after the back of his head smacking off the turf, and call BS.

 

The thing is that an EMT at the OP vs. West Seneca JV game wouldn't OK that person to return to the game. If Tua started to lecture about string theory it wouldn't matter. The evidence on the field alone is enough to keep a pop warner kid off the field. I likely wouldn't be allowed to return for another shift in my bar league hockey game. 

In order for Tua to return you have to throw out evidence and/or be willing to explain it via something else. 

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

I don't think that's right.  Bates was limited yesterday and he is in the protocol.  I'm sure limited is a very broad term but he was still practicing. 

Because they flat out lied that he wasn’t concussed. “Upper back” injury

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Beast said:

I’d like to see the stats on your last statement before commenting further.

 

How does someone get through all 5 stages of protocol after a mandatory rest period in 3 days? Especially for an away game.

 

The NFL’s return-to-play protocol features five, rather than six, steps:5

 

Symptom limited activity: Following a period of rest, the athlete gradually reintroduces light physical activity.

 

Aerobic exercise: When cleared, the football player does aerobic work, balance training, stretching, and other work while being monitored.

 

Football-specific exercise: Gradually, the player can begin exercises and drills geared specifically to the game. They can do noncontact practice drills with the team for 30 minutes a day in this phase.

 

Club-based noncontact drills: While keeping up with aerobic and other kinds of football-specific exercises, players can begin taking part in noncontact activities like throwing, catching, and running. By this phase, the player needs to have had neurocognitive balance testing.

 

Full football activity/clearance: In order to return to full-contact practice and play, the player must have a complete evaluation both by the team’s physician and an independent neurological consultant (a doctor assigned by the league).

 

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I’ve seen players miss 2-3 days and some 2-3 weeks. 

Whatev. Officially, he had the creative “upper back injury”. He was therefore allowed to practice. We’ll see how the investigation goes.

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

I don't think that's right.  Bates was limited yesterday and he is in the protocol.  I'm sure limited is a very broad term but he was still practicing. 

 

Practicing is part of the protocol.  It means he was in stage 4

[aristocrat]

Has Tua said anything about sunday's hit? He had to have had a press conference before last night right?  I'm assuming someone had to ask him about and he said no concussion right?

[GaryPinC]

35 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That is what the evaluation is all about - they take it out of the players hands.

 

If they fail the cognitive testing they enter the protocol and can not return.

 

Therefore as Bart Scott stated - many players cheat on the off season baseline testing to help if something happens during the season.

 

For the protocol to work it’s best - it takes the players being honest, both during the game and in baseline testing.

 

If players are going to lie and cheat - the protocols are going to fail and you get exactly what happened with Tua - a guy that should never had returned nor played Thursday, but was cleared for both and will probably be cleared by next Sunday so as not to miss a game.

 

 

All great points.  I definitely think Tua played a role in hiding his concussion by blaming it on his back

 

But you cannot absolve at a minimum the training/medical staff.  No way should he have been cleared to go back in so soon after, regardless of what he was blaming.  I don't know the details of the NFL rules but there's the damage from the concussion and there's post-concussion syndrome which is delayed effects.

 

I've seen kids/people who've sustained concussions and seem fine initially only to have neurological and coordination symptoms set in 15 minutes to hours later.

 

To keep it simple, I have no confidence that Miami's staff had Tua's health in mind because of how rapidly he came back.  I doubt his eye's/pupil and motor coordination was re-evaluated at halftime.  Probably just passed the baseline test.

[Warcodered]

35 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

Damn, good ol' Wade has no chill:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/wade-phillips-ripped-for-insensitive-tua-tagovailoa-tweet/ar-AA12q0Eq?cvid=74800ab16eaf422b831dd854d5b9e0cd

 

"Very poor decision and ability to avoid the rush--no wonder he has been hurt"

Not a nice thing to say about a guy after he gets hurt like that, but he's not exactly wrong.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

17 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Whatev. Officially, he had the creative “upper back injury”. He was therefore allowed to practice. We’ll see how the investigation goes.

I was just saying that the NFL clearly doesn’t follow a set plan. 

[RocCityRoller]

29 minutes ago, Beast said:

I don’t disagree. However, a doctor should be able to see Tua stumble and fall, right after the back of his head smacking off the turf, and call BS.

 

 

 

 

All 'doctors' who seem more qualified than the independent neurological expert at Sunday's game, and Miami's Medical staff that pushed the 'back injury' narrative and let him play on a short week.

 

The medical field in general has become an incompetent laughing stock

[GaryPinC]

4 hours ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

I rewatched the film of him after Sunday's concussion.  Keep in mind Tua may believe in hiding any concussion symptoms.  

 

When I think of a back injury, I think of weird posture, most often displayed in the positioning of the shoulders and muscular tension in the upper body.  Arched back, grabbing at of jerking your posture to alleviate the pain, etc.

 

There's none of that displayed, his shoulders and upper body are well aligned and overall relaxed.  The only thing he does is shake his head and briefly grabs at is his head and chin strap.  After his fall and stumbling, the trainer comes over and the first thing he appears to do is maybe grab at his back (which is why I think Tua is BSing) but he may have also just been trying to hold Tua up.

[stevewin]

5 hours ago, skibum said:

Why is everyone so certain that Tua was concussed on Sunday? I have had back pain that has literally knocked me to my knees, and I have never been tackled by a 300 lb man. 

I've had that back pain - and I've reached for my back, and cried out in pain.  When you had that back pain - did you just shake your head and wobble around?  I've never had or seen anyone who has intense back pain just stumble like a drunk person and shake their head and not at all reach for their back or cry out in pain.

 

There comes a point where "proof" can be replaced by common sense.  If you watch the tape and think that him shaking his head, wobbling and stumbling like someone who was knocked senseless is from back pain then I don't know what to tell you.  It simply is not plausible.  Common sense,

[Warcodered]

 

 

Lot of players/former players seem upset about this.

[Big Turk]

54 minutes ago, Beast said:

I don’t disagree. However, a doctor should be able to see Tua stumble and fall, right after the back of his head smacking off the turf, and call BS.

 

And see him put both hands up to his head like you see almost every time the back of a player's helmet hits the turf and they have a concussion

8 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

Lot of players/former players seem upset about this.

 

Because they know he had a concussion regardless of what was claimed. They aren't dumb...they know what goes on in locker rooms and how doctors will bend to the will of the team to allow players to play when they know they probably shouldn't.

 

Hearing Tomlin talk about relationships and caring about his players is almost like a twin with McDermott who basically is the same way...they played together in college and they both put a high priority on doing things the right way and doing right by their players.  It's no wonder they are respected and revered by their players and former players.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Big Turk

[Warcodered]

 

[PetermansRedemption]

Still a joke. Independent neurologist my ass. If you’re paid by the NFL, you aren’t independent. To me, an independent neurologist would be the guy working at Buffalo General (as a local example) who is billing the players insurance and not at all being paid by the NFL. 
 

These independent doctors are about as independent as the “experts” that defense attorneys and prosecutors hire to push their narratives in a case. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by PetermansRedemption

[freddyjj]

41 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

How does someone get through all 5 stages of protocol after a mandatory rest period in 3 days? Especially for an away game.

 

The NFL’s return-to-play protocol features five, rather than six, steps:5

 

Symptom limited activity: Following a period of rest, the athlete gradually reintroduces light physical activity.

 

Aerobic exercise: When cleared, the football player does aerobic work, balance training, stretching, and other work while being monitored.

 

Football-specific exercise: Gradually, the player can begin exercises and drills geared specifically to the game. They can do noncontact practice drills with the team for 30 minutes a day in this phase.

 

Club-based noncontact drills: While keeping up with aerobic and other kinds of football-specific exercises, players can begin taking part in noncontact activities like throwing, catching, and running. By this phase, the player needs to have had neurocognitive balance testing.

 

Full football activity/clearance: In order to return to full-contact practice and play, the player must have a complete evaluation both by the team’s physician and an independent neurological consultant (a doctor assigned by the league).

 

Scott - my take is he never was evaluated for a concussion and therefore avoided entering the league's concussion protocol altogether.  

 

As Miami officials (at home btw) within minutes of the Sunday injury informed the sidelines and media that Tua was being evaluated for a "head injury" and then bypassed all concussion protocols with the back injury nonsense, they may be facing some serious consequences.

 

Hope the young man recovers without incidence.  

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Good for Harbaugh.  The non-weasel coaches and owners need to speak up and denounce that trash organization.  

[YoloinOhio]

 

[DaggersEOD]

4 hours ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

He's the head coach with medical info available to him for all his players....he's not a Dr. but he does have judgement.  You use your best judgement and err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of others.  He either chose to look the other way to continue the Phins hype train and re-enforce his ego or he just has poor judgement.  

 

If he did something not on the level with Tua regarding his health, he will lose the respect of the veterans on that team.

As the leader of that team, when McDaniels saw how Tua was behaving last week, he should’ve used his Coach card and pulled him from the game, regardless of what the player/docs were telling him. 
 

I’ve served and I’m imagining that the team atmosphere is similar to a military unit’s atmosphere in terms of personal closeness and relationships. The brotherhood.

 

From that perspective, McDaniels is either a coward, too weak to stand up to the organizational/player pressure to allow this to happen, or a cold heartless human, more obsessed with his ambition to care about the well-being and livelihoods of his team. 
 

Maybe he thinks he’s more like the Rocky 4 Creed v Drago coach not throwing in the towel/ending the match?

 

Reality, it’s likely (speculation) a combo of the 1st two and a calculated roll of the dice, assuming Tua wouldn’t get hit like that 2 games in a row. Another poster mentioned the long break after this week. Probably another consideration. 
 

At the end of the day, anyone from their couch could tell Tua hurt his head last week but the phins are insisting that we’re all wrong. That will be the place where the friction builds until this breaks wide open IMO. 

 

I know it’s the fish/Tua but this just seems so wrong to me. The team needs to look after it’s members. This seems to have violated that. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by DaggersEOD
Spelling

[Warcodered]

6 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Good for Harbaugh.  The non-weasel coaches and owners need to speak up and denounce that trash organization.  

 

He clearly takes it seriously, Lamar had basically the same thing happen to him in that playoff game against us and they kept him out.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

After Tua stumbled in the Bills game he shakes his head and grabs it with both hands. Not once did he reach for his back.

 

That was a clear “no go” situation. Passing Concussion protocol doesn’t matter at that point. He should’ve been ruled out.
 

We all have eyes and saw what happened. “No go” is all about the visual symptoms. The only person that could say he fell because of his back is Tua. Tua’s opinion shouldn’t have mattered.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[YoloinOhio]

 

Cover up incoming!

[CoffeeDrip]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

After Tua stumbled in the Bills game he shakes his head and grabs it with both hands. Not once did he reach for his back.

 

That was a clear “no go” situation. Passing Concussion protocol doesn’t matter at that point. He should’ve been ruled out.
 

We all have eyes and saw what happened. “No go” is all about the visual symptoms. The only person that could say he fell because of his back is Tua. Tua’s opinion shouldn’t have mattered.

This is why I was so shocked when he went back in. I thought any visible sign of a potential head injury, even if the player isn’t placed in protocol, was an automatic out.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Cover up and coming!

Media hopefully doesn’t let them off the hook. We all have eyes. We saw it. 
 

The NFL has people watching to protect players from themselves. It’s the only reason they’re there.

[Warcodered]

9 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Cover up incoming!

I'm trying to understand how a back injury severe enough to cause him to collapse to the ground doesn't keep him out, and is somehow a nonfactor immediatly following the game. I'm not sure there is a scenario of this that isn't ***** terrible.

[Gugny]

19 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

He clearly takes it seriously, Lamar had basically the same thing happen to him in that playoff game against us and they kept him out.

 

Glad to see him speak out about what happened so frankly and honestly.  After seeing this, I feel confident in how I feel about the Tua situation.

 

Even if proper protocol was followed and Tua was somehow cleared to return to the field last Sunday, as the head coach of the team, Mike McDaniel should have stepped in and told Tua he was done for the day.  McDaniel is the main failure here.  He put winning ahead of his quarterback's short and long term health.

 

[The Wiz]

16 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Cover up incoming!

The NFL is about as transparent as mud when it comes to these situations.

[1ManRaid]

My understanding from listening to sports talk radio (assuming they know what they're talking about) is that even if you "pass" the tests, the loss of motor control he displayed on the field is supposed to automatically disqualify you from returning to the game.  I can only assume the doctors worked off a different interpretation of the rule where they only counted his motor control during the actual tests to have plausible deniability.  The automatic disqualification is supposed to prevent these "just a back injury" situations where the player is able to shake out the cobwebs before the test.

 

Miami needs to be severely punished for this if the league wants to retain any shred of credibility regarding player safety.

[LabattBlue]

2 hours ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Actually no that's not in the protocol, and that's maybe where there's a loophole.

 

If you exhibit what the NFL calls "gross motor instability" aka you get up from a hit and are a bit wobbly or unsteady, then you must be examined for a concusion. Here's where the loophole is, if the independent doctor and team doctor determine it's no neurological, then you can go back into the game. Both the Dolphins and independent neurologist determined Tuas wasn't neurological from the tests they do in the protocol. Now, that doesn't mean the protocol works or is perfect. He should have obvioulsy been to have further tests

 

The easiest way to close that loop is to just say, hey if you exhibit this gross motor instability, you are out of the game. If I had to guess, they put that in the protocal in case someone gets up from a big hit and trips or falls over another player. That could be viewed as unsteadiness by an independent spotter.

Just heard Brown & Tasker reiterate that the symptoms Tua showed after getting up, mean an automatic “done for the day”.

 

[Solomon Grundy]

28 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Cover up incoming!

Do we really need to hear from them?? I tend to believe my lying eyes😎

[syhuang]

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

So I’m just kind of learning the details of “no go” protocol.

 

So apparently if a player suffers fencing symptoms like we saw last night it’s automatic no go. Obviously.
 

But if a player stumbles to the ground after a hit to the head all the doctors get together and determine what caused the stumbling? Are we stupid? That definitely sets up a huge loophole in the rules. Why would they even put that in the rules? Just in case a star QB gets knocked out in the Super Bowl he might be able to return?

Yikes.

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, nucci said:

Still amazing they called it a back injury.

My guess with absolutely zero medical training  but several documented concussions lol is that he probably had a back injury and a concussion.  the team doctor probably suggested the loss of motor function could’ve happened from the back injury if he passed all the other concussion tests and the independent neurologist said it was possible.  It’s the team doctors call ultimately.

 

I bet they waited til halftime to test him so he got some of his wits back.  If he got that test right away no way he would’ve passed 

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

So I’m just kind of learning the details of “no go” protocol.

 

So apparently if a player suffers fencing symptoms like we saw last night it’s automatic no go. Obviously.
 

But if a player stumbles to the ground after a hit to the head all the doctors get together and determine what caused the stumbling? Are we stupid? That definitely sets up a huge loophole in the rules. Why would they even put that in the rules? Just in case a star QB gets knocked out in the Super Bowl he might be able to return?

Yikes.

 

Yup a loophole that was exploited either accidentally or knowingly 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[1ManRaid]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This NFL doctor just lied or he doesn’t know the NFL’s concussion protocol “no go” rules.

 

 

 

So he admits they don't look at the video evidence of how he was loopy on the field.  Also seemed to say loss of motor function isn't a "no go", despite it absolutely being so?

[Sestak4ever]

50 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

As the leader of that team, when McDaniels saw how Tua was behaving last week, he should’ve used his Coach card and pulled him from the game, regardless of what the player/docs were telling him. 
 

I’ve served and I’m imagining that the team atmosphere is similar to a military unit’s atmosphere in terms of personal closeness and relationships. The brotherhood.

 

From that perspective, McDaniels is either a coward, too weak to stand up to the organizational/player pressure to allow this to happen, or a cold heartless human, more obsessed with his ambition to care about the well-being and livelihoods of his team. 
 

Maybe he thinks he’s more like the Rocky 4 Creed v Drago coach not throwing in the towel/ending the match?

 

Reality, it’s likely (speculation) a combo of the 1st two and a calculated roll of the dice, assuming Tua wouldn’t get hit like that 2 games in a row. Another poster mentioned the long break after this week. Probably another consideration. 
 

At the end of the day, anyone from their couch could tell Tua hurt his head last week but the phins are insisting that we’re all wrong. That will be the place where the friction builds until this breaks wide open IMO. 

 

I know it’s the fish/Tua but this just seems so wrong to me. The team needs to look after it’s members. This seems to have violated that. 

Makes me think back to Robert Griffith and Shanahan was coaching them. Griffith couldn’t stand up from the beating he was taking, but Shanahan kept putting him back in the game. Basically ruined his career.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

My guess with absolutely zero medical training lol is that he probably had a back injury and a concussion.  the team doctor probably suggested the loss of motor function could’ve happened from the back injury if he passed all the other concussion tests and the independent neurologist said it was possible.  It’s the team doctors call ultimately 

Was the back injury reported? Do NFL teams have to report injuries that get examined during the game?
 

We have eyes. Honestly I would rather just have the old rules back where we didn’t care about concussions and just let the players decide for themselves.

 

The NFL thinks we’re stupid.