Allen's frequent running

[Success]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Designed runs for Josh when the Bills are up 3 touchdowns...Hate, hate, HATE IT!  

 

Singletary was averaging 6 freakin' yards per carry and you do designed QB runs and hand off's to Moss.  It's boneheaded.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

It was a big game. He will run less against lesser opponents. 

What dir he start 10 for 10 so you really can't say he needs to run early to get into the game.

The stiff arm looked nice but that is his throwing hand. He'll either hand is invaluable. Needs to cut down those risk plays. 

[billsfan1959]

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

[Scott7975]

It’s who Allen is and it’s part of his game. Allen is going to do Allen things. Up 3 TDS though yeah, that’s a little overboard. 

[letsgoteam]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

This, I think some of these were his call. 

 

 

[Nextmanup]

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

Sure, there's a risk of injury every time Josh runs around, but I don't think it's close to what fans think it is.

 

I do support him NOT RUNNING at all against bad teams or when the score is run up. 

 

We need all we have against the big boys, though, and Josh running is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

I've been saying that for 3 years now and it's still true.

 

 

[LabattBlue]

The designed runs(in excess) will be defended by some here, until…

[Big Turk]

Ehh...I didn't love the runs when they were up late in the game, but Allen is going to do what he does...just have to live with it.  He typically doesn't take those type of hits like he did last night. It's like he was wanting to send a message to both the Rams and his teammates to set the tone for this season....that he was going to do whatever he had to do to win. Kinda like he said after McDermott's postgame speech when he broke the team down.  "It doesn't matter how we get the win, only that we get the f*****g win!!"

Edited September 9, 2022 by Big Turk

[Buffalo Boy]

   I’ve been on my high horse about this for two years.

   He has 20 more games to play if we are going to hoist a Lombardi.

    His passing skills are very good. I understand the need to scramble when the pass rush is taking itself too far upfield …. But that’s a choice. I don’t understand 4th quarter, by design, when the game is in hand because it is incomprehensible.

    The only argument for might be to get many different plays on tape to give DCs things to think about and to set up for future offensive subterfuge.

    Shula and the Panthers RUINED Cam through overuse and not protecting Cam from himself. It CAN happen and then we are just a good team without a QB.

[scuba guy]

This is also to get game tape out there to all the defensive coordinators so they have nightmares 😳 

[Buffalo Boy]

3 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

Don’t put him in RPO situations…. Problem solved.

[LeGOATski]

1 minute ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

Yep. It's Allen being Allen and the OC has no control over that.

 

While I want Allen to be safe, the guy knows what he's doing and his runs get the team fired up. Allen is the leader and he leads by example. I also never thought he was in an awkward position and vulnerable. They were calculated runs. He's not a frail guy, so he can take normal tackles as well as any RB.

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

 

He took a pretty good beating yesterday.   Fortunately he was well off the ground when Donald sacked him and his neck snapped back.    I think it's going to be hard to get him to stop running if they keep him in the shotgun all the time though.   He's gotten used to not punting and now it seems like an obsession to not give up on a series.  Even late in the game when the result was no longer in doubt.    If they want to impose a limit on him they might have to do it schematically.........line him up under center,  pound the ball from traditional running sets and use play action to set up your passing game.   The style they are playing might be the most efficient way to move the ball now but they need to find a balance between moving the ball and not putting hard miles on Allen.    Can't have him running 10x every game.

Edited September 9, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Bubba Gump]

Yeah, way too many plays where he could run, or were meant for him to run. The Rams were trying to break him like a wishbone when he kept running in the 2nd half. 

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Don’t put him in RPO situations…. Problem solved.

 

Yeah...I don't think that is gonna happen. Nor should it...

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

Some were read options where he kept it. The problem is that he always keeps it on those. I have never seen him hand the ball off on the rear option runs. Never. 

[PrimeTime101]

13 minutes ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

Many of those runs were by choice. A couple of those were good licks... Josh stood up and smiled... EVERY TIME!

 

Its like he needed to be hit...

 

im not worried

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

 

2 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

 

"O" being the key letter in "RPO".   Just don't give him the option.  Run smarter plays to protect your QB when your up 3 touchdowns.

 

If they want to sprinkle some in here and there....fine.  If Josh can scramble to get a first down....fine.

 

The designed run in the 4th up by 3 touchdowns had me really scratching my head.  The was another, 3rd quarter maybe, Josh was damn near held up horizontally while the Rams Dline was trying to tear him in half.  And ( I believe ) that was a designed run up the middle.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

"O" being the key letter in "RPO".   Just don't give him the option. 

 

This is just silly

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Just now, billsfan1959 said:

 

This is just silly

 

I'm talking about when your up 3 TD's with the game won.  Silly to protect the QB in that scenario??? Ok coach.  

[LabattBlue]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Many of those runs were by choice. A couple of those were good licks... Josh stood up and smiled... EVERY TIME!

 

Its like he needed to be hit...

 

im not worried

 

[billsfan1959]

2 minutes ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

 

I'm talking about when your up 3 TD's with the game won.  Silly to protect the QB in that scenario??? Ok coach.  

 

As long as Allen is in the game, he is going to have his full complement of plays to run. And he should.

[Success]

I get the "he's choosing to run" arguments - but that falls to coaching, too.  It just feels like that shouldn't always be the easy button on plays that break down a little.

 

But I also get the idea that some fans are making, that this is just who Allen is.  And maybe we just have to ride w/ that, whatever comes.

 

Kelly used to take some big chances running, and he had a pretty healthy career overall. And that was in the days when QB's weren't as protected.  Allen reminds me of him so much at times - that "Linebacker mentality."

 

[msw2112]

I agree that Allen should run less.  I hope and think that because this was big game - national stage, opening game against a top opponent, etc. that they wanted to set the tone for the season with big win.  The one "designed" run I didn't like, as mentioned above, was the one with under 10 minutes left in the fourth quarter, up by 3 scores.  We were at the game and could see the whole play develop from above.  I think that play was similar to the first TD.  They expected the Rams to sell out on the run and that when Allen rolled out, the WR would be wide open dowfield like Davis was on the first TD and Allen would just dump it over the top.  When the defensive player didn't cheat to Allen, there was a huge running lane and Allen took it.  He should have just done the QB slide and gone down.  Running out of bounds would not have been the right play, as they wanted to keep the clock running. 

 

I also thought that late in the game, the Bills should have run the ball every down and either 1) forced the Rams to use their TOs, or 2) milked the clock.  Moss' fumble might have caused them to move away from that strategy.  Oddly, the Rams didn't use TOs and didn't even try to get the ball downfield.  Stranger things have happened in the NFL - if they managed to score a quick TD and recovered an onsides kick, the momentum shifts and they might have a shot.  A longshot for sure, but a shot.  Instead, they pretty much conceded the game inside of 7 minutes.

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

7 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

As long as Allen is in the game, he is going to have his full complement of plays to run. And he should.

I'll agree to disagree...not when the game is won.

[Buffalo Boy]

14 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Yeah...I don't think that is gonna happen. Nor should it...

In the 4 th quarter, when leading decisively, I think it should.

[billsfan1959]

Just now, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

I'll agree to disagree...not when the game is won.

 

We can agree to disagree 

[HOUSE]

He won't listen to me, I tried

[GaryPinC]

8 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

Sure, there's a risk of injury every time Josh runs around, but I don't think it's close to what fans think it is.

 

I do support him NOT RUNNING at all against bad teams or when the score is run up. 

 

We need all we have against the big boys, though, and Josh running is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

I've been saying that for 3 years now and it's still true.

 

 

Our superbowl hopes and the dominance of this team depend on Josh.  Our hopes for a decade or more of franchise dominance depend on Josh.  

 

He stupidly absorbed many direct hits yesterday, and many on throwaway plays like 2nd and 9 from the 40 yard line.  To answer your question, it's wear-and-tear on his body that accumulates and will shorten his career, and one bad hit during an awkward body position may derail this season entirely.

 

That said, I want Josh to run, but Diggs needs to take him aside and teach him when not to sacrifice your body for the extra yards.  Diggs is one of the smartest I've seen about avoiding hard hits unless it's a critical situation.

 

Our coaches need to stop spoiling Josh and get the ball to Singletary more on the throwaway downs and field position.  Let alone when we are up big. That's his job and since last year he seems really good at it.  Coaches pandered too much to Josh's running proclivities yesterday, IMO.  Josh needs to play his game while also being more respectful of the long view.

[billsfan1959]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

In the 4 th quarter, when leading decisively, I think it should.

 

And you are free to feel that way. I'm not belittling your opinion, just disagreeing with it.

 

Cheers

[mannc]

22 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I could be wrong, but I think a number of those runs were Allen's choice on RPOs.

Yeah, I think he called his own number on the majority of those runs.  He was also quick to tuck the ball away and run when he felt pressure from the pass rush.  It's highly effective, but of course you worry about the sustainability over a long season.  I'm not sure it's something that can be coached out of Josh at this point of his career.  He's just too competitive. 

[GaryPinC]

Just now, mannc said:

Yeah, I think he called his own number on the majority of those runs.  He was also quick to tuck the ball away and run when he felt pressure from the pass rush.  It's highly effective, but of course you worry about the sustainability over a long season.  I'm not sure it's something that can be coached out of Josh at this point of his career.  He's just too competitive. 

So is Singletary.  Josh is essentially taking some of his carries and coaches need to get Josh to execute his ambitions more carefully.

[boater]

28 minutes ago, Bandito said:

I don't get the use of Moss. He is not very good. 

Yeah. Moss had quite a few gains of a lofty one yard each.

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

Yeah, I think he called his own number on the majority of those runs.  He was also quick to tuck the ball away and run when he felt pressure from the pass rush.  It's highly effective, but of course you worry about the sustainability over a long season.  I'm not sure it's something that can be coached out of Josh at this point of his career.  He's just too competitive. 

 

I honestly wonder if someone like Von Miller might have more of an impact with Josh than the coaching team - a player that has done it all, led the team defensively yesterday and has so much skill and experience, I can imagine him Josh respecting him and listening to him. Plus Miller can explain the dirty tricks defenses might get up to to hinder a QB's game.

 

The issue is I can see Josh appreciating that view off the field, and saying to himself he won't put himself in those positions so much in the game, but I think something takes over when he crosses the white line, where he wants to pound, grind and compete for the full four quarters. He sees the specific down and nothing else, not the long term picture. If we could change that mentality, would we want to? And would it improve him as a player or actually affect him unduly?

[mannc]

25 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I disagree with this "he's going to get hurt" thing from fans.  Why?  He's 6'6 and 240 lbs... and can take linebackers for a ride.

 

Why aren't you worried about Matt Milano getting hurt with all the running and thumping he does?  Josh is a LOT bigger!
 

Sure, there's a risk of injury every time Josh runs around, but I don't think it's close to what fans think it is.

 

I do support him NOT RUNNING at all against bad teams or when the score is run up. 

 

We need all we have against the big boys, though, and Josh running is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

I've been saying that for 3 years now and it's still true.

 

 

Same with Cam Newton and now his career is over at 33 years old.  It's true that QB's are more likely to get injured standing in the pocket and getting hit while they throw, but running 10-15 times a game is just not sustainable if you want Josh to have a long career.  There is a reason even the best RBs only last a few years in the league.  That being said, I think it's probably just something we have to live with at this point in Josh's career.  I doubt it can be coached out of him, but maybe there are things they can do schematically to minimize it.

[Rampage]

How could someone disagree with your post? People want Josh taking massive hits up three touchdowns? It’s insanity. He’s not iron man. He can get hurt like everyone else.

[Chicken Boo]

I don't mind Josh running, I just wish he would slide more.

[billsfan1959]

4 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

So is Singletary.  Josh is essentially taking some of his carries and coaches need to get Josh to execute his ambitions more carefully.

 

I think the coaches trust Josh to make the right decisions when he is on the field.

[RiotAct]

40 minutes ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

To be fair, that’s what everyone was saying his rookie season too

 

But yeah, no need for him to be taking off down the middle of the field when we’re up by 3 scores halfway thru the 4th quarter.