Walter Football Mock with the Hot Take on our MLB

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, george c said:

I don’t get the Edmunds hate. Two linebackers patrol the middle.A LOT is asked from them. No chance we give up on Edmunds.

Nothing about him screams elite, game changer, or frankly dependable. His play is inconsistent. Imho, he's more a liability than a asset. Many games you never even hear his name called. He gets blocked by running backs and lineman which he cannot shed to make a tackle. Routinely gets burned in pass coverage. Look at how many sacks and ints he has. He doesn't make big play with the exception of missing his gap where an opposing RB runs for 40 yards. I think I've been impressed with two or three games he's played as a Bill. Additionally, he doesn't seem to be a leader. The guy has pretty much under preformed in every area. Sure he's young and can improve. I just don't see it. He isn't the type of LB that leads defenses to championships. I think he's a stop gap kind of player. Hope that helps.

Edited February 25, 2022 by newcam2012

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Tremaine hasn’t been a “huge bust,” but he hasn’t been a difference maker either. His instincts are below average for a MLB, but his size and athleticism are elite. Put the two together and you get a slightly above average linebacker, though I couldn’t argue if someone else were to just call him “average.”
Despite being the defensive captain and getting everyone set on defense, his mental acuity and processing do him no favors. I don’t think he’ll ever be a defensive playmaker, a guy the opposing team absolutely fears and has to account for.

I get your point, but you just described a bust for a player drafted 16th overall.  He can play in this league and it’s not his fault that he was drafted too early, but that’s how draft picks are judged.

[newcam2012]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

But I thought the Bills DT's were a liability...........so Edmunds couldn't make plays in run defense?

 

The issue with Edmunds is simple...........he plays a position in a system that is designed to put him around the ball A LOT..............and he doesn't make the kind of plays that turn games.........passes defensed, TFL, sacks, QB hits, pressures, FF, FR, INT.

 

The reasons are

 

1. A lack of in-game instincts or mental acuity.........he generally achieves the minimum result on every play he does make.

 

2. An inability to get off of blocks...........which turns him into a tumbleweed on screen plays and leads to him being maybe the worst blitzing LB in the entire NFL(no exaggeration.......he went like 140 blitz attempts with 1 pressure in 2019-2020).

 

Well said! 

[Solomon Grundy]

If the Bills had a closer at DE, this Tremaine Edmunds debate would be moot. IMO.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

This is the London Fletcher debate all over again. Bills fans always complained about Fletcher. 

[Orlando Tim]

46 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

 

How to prove that you don't know football? State a player who is captain of the #1 defense and is statistically elite is subpar. He is not Darius Leonard good but he well above average

[JohnBonhamRocks]

9 hours ago, Process said:

You know how you go to Chiefs Planet and every post is "RAPE", "POOP", "KILL YOURSELF!!!"?

 

Those guys have more football knowledge than Walter football. 

 

With that said, if we get to 25 and Dean is still there, and a team offered us an early 2nd Rd pick or better for Edmunds, it would be a no brainer.

“Those guys”?
 

I thought you were just referring to Jackson Mahomes’ post history there. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is the London Fletcher debate all over again. Bills fans always complained about Fletcher. 

 

 

No it's definitely not.

 

Fletcher made more plays AND a lot more tackles than Edmunds.

 

There were complaints about him not being undersized and not a great run stuffer...........but not about his instincts or ability to get off blocks and make plays.

 

People think Edmunds has lacked support from his DL...........what Fletcher got when he arrived in Buffalo was much worse.

 

[gobills404]

27 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

But I thought the Bills DT's were a liability...........so Edmunds couldn't make plays in run defense?

 

The issue with Edmunds is simple...........he plays a position in a system that is designed to put him around the ball A LOT..............and he doesn't make the kind of plays that turn games.........passes defensed, TFL, sacks, QB hits, pressures, FF, FR, INT.

 

The reasons are

 

1. A lack of in-game instincts or mental acuity.........he generally achieves the minimum result on every play he does make.

 

2. An inability to get off of blocks...........which turns him into a tumbleweed on screen plays and leads to him being maybe the worst blitzing LB in the entire NFL(no exaggeration.......he went like 140 blitz attempts with 1 pressure in 2019-2020).

 

So you must think Devin Bush, Devin White, Lavonte David, Fred Warner, Bobby Wagner, and Myles Jack also have no instincts and can’t get off blocks right? Give me a break.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No it's definitely not.

 

Fletcher made more plays AND a lot more tackles than Edmunds.

 

There were complaints about him not being undersized and not a great run stuffer...........but not about his instincts or ability to get off blocks and make plays.

 

People think Edmunds has lacked support from his DL...........what Fletcher got when he arrived in Buffalo was much worse.

 

Later he did. He was always criticized for making tackles down field. 

 

Edmunds and Milano have lacked support from the DL. The DL does not occupy blocks in the run game. You should know that since you watch close from your Edmunds analysis.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I would really love to hear someone argue that the Bills defensive line is strong at the point of attack. That they routinely win the line of scrimmage battle.

 

If you can't argue this point then don't try to argue Edmunds is a bad football player.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Freddie's Dead]

5 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

 

@GunnerBill, my friend, you're entering a world of pain....

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

@GunnerBill, my friend, you're entering a world of pain....

 

I have no idea what that photo is!

[LABILLBACKER]

I'm so exhausted discussing Edmunds. His list of deficiencies far outweighs his strengths. And there's no way he gets extended. He'll either be traded or play out his contract year.

[Freddie's Dead]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I have no idea what that photo is!

 

If you've never seen "The Big Lebowski", do yourself a favor and see it.  The reference is to Walter, played by John Goodman, a slightly unhinged Vietnam vet, who enforces fouls in a bowling league in a, shall we say, authoritarian manner.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

If you've never seen "The Big Lebowski", do yourself a favor and see it.  The reference is to Walter, played by John Goodman, a slightly unhinged Vietnam vet, who enforces fouls in a bowling league in a, shall we say, authoritarian manner.

 

I have never seen it. 

[Rigotz]

1) Re-sign at $12M/yr:

The top 10 ILB's in the NFL make between $10.5M and $20M. Most would argue Edmunds should be toward the bottom on a new deal.

 

2) Trade for a 3rd Round Pick:

If a 1st/2nd is offered, I think that might be an easy decision. So lets say it's a 3rd. GM's likely won't offer a no-brainer trade. His full $12.7M salary is released w/ zero dead cap.

 

3) Let him walk:

You get Edmunds this year at $12.7M. When he walks, you might get a 3rd round comp pick back if he's paid highly in Free Agency.

 

*Note* I know this discussion has been made in other topics, but the poll should be interesting.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Rigotz

[DJB]

I love new interesting topics which have never been discussed 

Edited February 25, 2022 by DJB

[B-Man]

 

 

4)  Move him to the outside.

 

 

[Rigotz]

Just now, DJB said:

I love new interesting topics 

 

You must have missed my note in bold at the bottom.

This is a hypothetical with a poll - if you don't like it, please feel free to visit another topic.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

I get your point, but you just described a bust for a player drafted 16th overall.  He can play in this league and it’s not his fault that he was drafted too early, but that’s how draft picks are judged.

 

Question: if "huge bust" or "bust" describes a player who has started consistently in an important role on a defense that's statistically good, but was drafted 16th overall and is not a star, how do you describe other players who were drafted in the 1st round and have not done as much?

 

Darron Lee

Charles Harris

etc

 

How do you describe other players who were drafted high in the first round and have started, but perhaps not been all that was hoped for contributions?

Devin Bush

Rashan Gary

etc

 

I think people get laser-focused on how our guys do or don't measure up to our expectations and lose perspective on how they compare to other players drafted in similar slots.  Not everyone who is drafted in the middle of the first round or above becomes a star.

 

I also think the term "bust" gets tossed around pretty freely to mean "any guy I wouldn't have drafted there" or "any guy who isn't producing the stats I think he should produce" vs. its original use, which was IMO to describe a guy who just couldn't play.

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

But I thought the Bills DT's were a liability...........so Edmunds couldn't make plays in run defense?

 

I believe that's sarcasm

 

and yet

 

From the way you consistently criticize Lotulelei and Butler and Harry etc

 

Isn't that what YOU think - that the Bills DT are a liability, that they don't close gaps and at best, they occupy two blockers but don't move them around and make tackles?

 

And if that's correct, then wouldn't that be expected to impact LB play?

 

How do you account for Edmunds having his best statistical year in 2018 with Kyle Williams and Lotulelei ahead of him and a side order of Phillipses?

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm so exhausted discussing Edmunds. His list of deficiencies far outweighs his strengths. And there's no way he gets extended. He'll either be traded or play out his contract year.

Let’s put some money on that

[BillsFanMike]

Keep him. He's young and still has a high ceiling. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

This is kind of the dilemma with Edmunds that I think fans are having. They don't ask him to do a lot besides take up space. He's very good at taking up space. With our defense playing mostly nickel, I don't want to move on from a LB that plays nearly 100% of the snaps. He's very dependable. It's big risk to try and upgrade. 

 

Quote

“Interesting guy (Edmunds) because they don't use him in coverage very much. He'll cover backs at times, but he rarely covers was tight ends, because Milano does that or if Milano blitzes, they have one of the safeties do that,” Greg Cosell of NFL Films, an analyst on ESPN's NFL Matchup, said. “Edmunds rarely matches up man-to-man to tight ends, which is kind of interesting in and of itself, given his length and his athleticism. … It just strikes me as odd given the athletic traits. I think he's a good player. My sense is he's not a dominant player.”

 

"The amount of space he takes away just by his mere presence in the middle of the field is unlike anything that’s been seen in a very long time," Saleh said of Edmunds. "I think [Brian] Urlacher would probably be one of those guys."

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/37052/bills-face-key-decision-on-extending-linebacker-tremaine-edmunds

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Extend him.

19 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

4)  Move him to the outside.

 

 

You have someone named Milano.

[DJB]

18 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

You must have missed my note in bold at the bottom.

This is a hypothetical with a poll - if you don't like it, please feel free to visit another topic.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

So you must think Devin Bush, Devin White, Lavonte David, Fred Warner, Bobby Wagner, and Myles Jack also have no instincts and can’t get off blocks right? Give me a break.

 

No, quite the opposite with most of those guys,  lesser traits and more instincts.

 

Though I wouldn't identify Bush, who struggled this season after a season ending injury in 2020.......... or the seriously disappointing Myles Jack as guys who are really perceived as better than Edmunds at this point.

 

Edmunds is a middle of the league starting ILB/MLB...........it's not a premium position so it's a lot like being a middle of the league starting RB............he's been "meh"..........but he has physical talent to be an All Pro.

 

Good comparison would be if Derrick Henry was a middle of the league starting RB in year 4 of his career..............people would surely say "that's it?"..........as are Bills fans and people like Jason LaCanfora who thought he was going to be the best defensive player in football last season.  

 

[B-Man]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Extend him.

You have someone named Milano.

 

 

You have two outsides.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

 

 

You have two outsides.

No they don't. We're a base nickle defense.

[PonyBoy]

If ever a poll needed an "other" category this would be it. The responses would have been hilarious!

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

You must have missed my note in bold at the bottom.

This is a hypothetical with a poll - if you don't like it, please feel free to visit another topic.

 

I've checked the other 2 "what to do with Edmunds" threads on page 1....the poll doesn't take it to the level you imagined.

[Brand J]

There was a poll already on this topic that read “Should the Bills extend Edmunds?” 

[BADOLBILZ]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Question: if "huge bust" or "bust" describes a player who has started consistently in an important role on a defense that's statistically good, but was drafted 16th overall and is not a star, how do you describe other players who were drafted in the 1st round and have not done as much?

 

Darron Lee

Charles Harris

etc

 

How do you describe other players who were drafted high in the first round and have started, but perhaps not been all that was hoped for contributions?

Devin Bush

Rashan Gary

etc

 

I think people get laser-focused on how our guys do or don't measure up to our expectations and lose perspective on how they compare to other players drafted in similar slots.  Not everyone who is drafted in the middle of the first round or above becomes a star.

 

I also think the term "bust" gets tossed around pretty freely to mean "any guy I wouldn't have drafted there" or "any guy who isn't producing the stats I think he should produce" vs. its original use, which was IMO to describe a guy who just couldn't play.

 

 

I believe that's sarcasm

 

and yet

 

From the way you consistently criticize Lotulelei and Butler and Harry etc

 

Isn't that what YOU think - that the Bills DT are a liability, that they don't close gaps and at best, they occupy two blockers but don't move them around and make tackles?

 

And if that's correct, then wouldn't that be expected to impact LB play?

 

How do you account for Edmunds having his best statistical year in 2018 with Kyle Williams and Lotulelei ahead of him and a side order of Phillipses?

 

 

I consistently criticize Harrison Phillips?   That's a lie.

 

In 2020 I said both Phillips and Butler played admirably at DT1T.    Oliver was also very good.

 

In 2021 Phillips and Oliver were both above average to very good at their jobs.

 

If Edmunds needs ELITE talent at DT to make ANY plays whatsoever then it's a much bigger problem than support in front of him.

 

I accounted for Edmunds best statistical year being 2018 as him not thinking as much..............right from the opening game when he had a strip sack in Baltimore he was better when he didn't know what he didn't know.

 

One of the DUMBEST f*cking notions ever is that Kyle Williams was good in run defense............he was simply a penetrator and pass rusher...........2021 Oliver was a much better all around player than KW was in 2018.    Statistically they may look about the same but KW wasn't capable of manning DT1T at f*cking all and was lousy in run defense.  

 

And 2021 Harrison Phillips was much better than 2018 Lotulelei.

 

[gobills404]

18 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

No, quite the opposite with most of those guys,  lesser traits and more instincts.

 

Though I wouldn't identify Bush, who struggled this season after a season ending injury in 2020.......... or the seriously disappointing Myles Jack as guys who are really perceived as better than Edmunds at this point.

 

Edmunds is a middle of the league starting ILB/MLB...........it's not a premium position so it's a lot like being a middle of the league starting RB............he's been "meh"..........but he has physical talent to be an All Pro.

 

Good comparison would be if Derrick Henry was a middle of the league starting RB in year 4 of his career..............people would surely say "that's it?"..........as are Bills fans and people like Jason LaCanfora who thought he was going to be the best defensive player in football last season.  

 

Here’s the picture from the tweet you originally replied to since you obviously didn’t actually look at it.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I consistently criticize Harrison Phillips?   That's a lie.

 

In 2020 I said both Phillips and Butler played admirably at DT1T.    Oliver was also very good.

 

In 2021 Phillips and Oliver were both above average to very good at their jobs.

 

If Edmunds needs ELITE talent at DT to make ANY plays whatsoever then it's a much bigger problem than support in front of him.

 

I accounted for Edmunds best statistical year being 2018 as him not thinking as much..............right from the opening game when he had a strip sack in Baltimore he was better when he didn't know what he didn't know.

 

One of the DUMBEST f*cking notions ever is that Kyle Williams was good in run defense............he was simply a penetrator and pass rusher...........2021 Oliver was a much better all around player than KW was in 2018.    Statistically they may look about the same but KW wasn't capable of manning DT1T at f*cking all and was lousy in run defense.  

 

And 2021 Harrison Phillips was much better than 2018 Lotulelei.

 

 

Typical.  You're asked a broad question and you fixate on one small bit and throw a Drama Llama hissy fit about it.

You have, in the past, in fact criticized Harry - you've said he was a good tackler at Stanford and has not shown that ability in the Pros, he's undersized and gets injured because of it etc.  Butler too - that the Bills hoped he'd become their big 1TDT and those hopes were mistaken etc.

 

I'm not motivated to go find all that stuff, so if it helps you actually focus on the broader issue raised, I'll concede the point.  I was not talking about just last season, however.

 

Now let's reprise:

From the way you consistently criticize Lotulelei and Butler and Harry etc

 

Isn't that what YOU think - that the Bills DT are a liability, that they don't close gaps and at best, they occupy two blockers but don't move them around and make tackles?

 

And if that's correct, then wouldn't that be expected to impact LB play?

 

How do you account for Edmunds having his best statistical year in 2018 with Kyle Williams and Lotulelei ahead of him and a side order of Phillipses?

 

You gonna respond with some actual football talk or throw a hissy again?

 

Would you argue that the Bills DL in general and their DTs in particular last season "met expectations" and provided a good ROI?

 

 

[Process]

2 hours ago, gobills404 said:

 

This chart could not be any more meaningless..... Just watch the games 

[Rigotz]

A lot of people somehow missing the point here...

 

The existing poll and existing thread don't put any parameters on what a "trade" or "extension" mean.

So every thread has devolved into "HE SUCKS, DONT EXTEND HIM" or "TRADE 4 PICKS"

 

That's not what this thread is. It's a realistic hypothetical and plenty of people are answering, so enjoy it, or go cry somewhere else.
 

[DrDawkinstein]

 

 

I'd take the 3rd in a trade, but would also be interested in a player:player trade.

Edited February 25, 2022 by DrDawkinstein

[Magox]

If you can sign him to a multi year deal for around $10M a year average - sign him up.

 

If not, trade him - I think you could get a 2nd rounder for him, I believe that a few GM's value him higher than the board does.

[gobills404]

10 minutes ago, Process said:

This chart could not be any more meaningless..... Just watch the games 

And how many games of those non-bills players do you watch? I guess the “eye test” from bills fans in their living rooms is much more meaningful than actually objective numbers from people who watched every snap for all the players. Laughable logic.