Why did Marv not directly replace Ted Marchiabroda?

[JohnNord]

The other day, I couldn’t remember who the Bills offense coordinator during the SB era was after Ted Marchiabroda left to coach Indy.  
 

I looked it up only to find that there really wasn’t a direct replacement.  Marv did two things - promoted running backs coach Elijah Pitts to Assistant HC and named Tom Bresnahan OC on top of duties as OL coach.   So it wasn’t a situation like we just had in Buffalo where Dorsey was promoted to OC and then Joe Brady was hired to take his job as QB coach.  
 

Does anyone remember what went into this decision to not replace Marchiabroda with someone from the outside?

 

Also what was the role of Elijah Pitts as Assistant HC?

 

Finally I noticed that Bresnahan along with DC Walt Corey had position responsibilities on top of their jobs as coordinators.  Was this something the Bills did to save money on coaches?  Oddly enough Marchiabroda was only OC.  
 

This was the start of my fandom so I don’t remember much things like this…

[RochesterLifer]

Ralph was cheap.

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

Ralph was cheap.

We all know that…,

[RochesterLifer]

Just now, Don Otreply said:

We all know that…,

It felt like a funny response. Perhaps I was mistaken.

[Don Otreply]

1 minute ago, RochesterLifer said:

It felt like a funny response. Perhaps I was mistaken.

You were not mistaken 😁👍

[transient]

Levy's hubris. For some reason I remember that he didn't really give Marchibroda the credit he deserved for the K-gun/no huddle concept and he thought Kelly was sufficient to keep it afloat without a true coordinator. It was a situation similar to wasting HOF talent on the defensive side of the ball with Walt Corey's putrid read and react BS.

[Special K]

Jim Kelly was OC.👍

[Man with No Name]

this is interesting. never realized all of this stuff since i was a kid. kelly definitely peaked in his last two years with marchibroda, if you look back at the stats. 

[JohnNord]

41 minutes ago, transient said:

Levy's hubris. For some reason I remember that he didn't really give Marchibroda the credit he deserved for the K-gun/no huddle concept and he thought Kelly was sufficient to keep it afloat without a true coordinator. It was a situation similar to wasting HOF talent on the defensive side of the ball with Walt Corey's putrid read and react BS.

Yeah I had assumed that the fact that Kelly was calling the plays on offense was the reason why he never really found a replacement.  Still it does make you wonder what would have happened if a fresh set of eyes at OC added some new wrinkles to the K-Gun.  
 

I’m actually surprised at how long Walt Corey lasted as DC.  My guess is because the team went to 4 straight Super Bowls and features a lot of All-Pro’s with a tendency to make big plays at key moments.  

52 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

Ralph was cheap.

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.  I do remember reading that Ralph was against giving coaches big contracts.  He never did this when he owned the Bills though rumor was that he was willing to break out the checkbook for Shannahan and Cower years later.  
 

I remember when Rex Ryan was hired and added a huge coaching staff.  The old beat reporters would comment how times had changed because Ralph would never allow this

[chris heff]

I don’t think replacing a coach like Ted Marchibroda is that easy. 

[JohnNord]

Just now, chris heff said:

I don’t think replacing a coach like Ted Marchibroda is that easy. 

Replacing a successful OC is never easy but teams usually try to hire someone.  For some reason Levy didn’t do that.  He simply merged the position with Bresnahan the OL coach.  It seemed like an odd decision 

[FitzShowUsYourTitz]

Marv asked me to be the OC, being Ted‘s brother he thought the transition would be seamless.  I on the other hand had a greater passion for old timer beer league hockey.  ✌🏼

[transient]

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Yeah I had assumed that the fact that Kelly was calling the plays on offense was the reason why he never really found a replacement.  Still it does make you wonder what would have happened if a fresh set of eyes at OC added some new wrinkles to the K-Gun.  
 

I’m actually surprised at how long Walt Corey lasted as DC.  My guess is because the team went to 4 straight Super Bowls and features a lot of All-Pro’s with a tendency to make big plays at key moments.  

I'm not a big Levy fan. He was good at getting a locker room full of big egos on the same page, for the most part, but he could never get out of the way of his own ego. If not for Polian providing the collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball there's no way he's a HOF coach. The lack of a true OC after Marchibroda, the wasted talent on defense with Corey, and his asinine insistence that the Bills could just "out execute" their opponent in the SB's as Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson outschemed and outcoached him to an embarrassing extent was infuriating. He was blinded by the fact the Bills were just that much more talented than the AFC for that stretch of the early 90s. He never figured out you couldn't win a championship on talent alone when you're up against a similarly talented opponent.

[eSJayDee]

I think it's a matter of what someone alluded to above.  Staffs weren't as large as they are now (nor were rosters).  Way back when, teams had like 3 or 4 coaches.  I'd bet Marv typically had about a dozen or so, which was probably typical.  It's only recently (Rex was an innovator ) that typical staffs are 20+ w/ multiple "quality control" and assistant position coaches.

[Cynical]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

The other day, I couldn’t remember who the Bills offense coordinator during the SB era was after Ted Marchiabroda left to coach Indy.  
 

I looked it up only to find that there really wasn’t a direct replacement.  Marv did two things - promoted running backs coach Elijah Pitts to Assistant HC and named Tom Bresnahan OC on top of duties as OL coach.   So it wasn’t a situation like we just had in Buffalo where Dorsey was promoted to OC and then Joe Brady was hired to take his job as QB coach.  
 

Does anyone remember what went into this decision to not replace Marchiabroda with someone from the outside?

 

Also what was the role of Elijah Pitts as Assistant HC?

 

He still served as the RB coach.

I believe the "promotion" to Asst HC was more about giving Pitts a title more than anything else.

 

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

 

Finally I noticed that Bresnahan along with DC Walt Corey had position responsibilities on top of their jobs as coordinators.  Was this something the Bills did to save money on coaches?  Oddly enough Marchiabroda was only OC.  

 

Even though there was no official position while he was on staff, Marchibroda also served as the QB coach.

After Ted left in '91, the Bills created the QB coach position, and hired Jim Shofner.

 

Football back then is not like it is today in regards to the coaching staff.

It was not uncommon for an assistant coach to pull double duty back then.

Walt Corey was both the DC and the LB coach.

 

35 minutes ago, Special K said:

Jim Kelly was OC.👍

 

This.

Did not matter who helped set up the game plan, Kelly was calling the plays when he took the field.

[Buftex]

I love revisionist history!

Can we go back and fire Marv?

 

[First Round Bust]

he did, in-house ,Tom Bresnahan, but using K-gun hurry-up set Kelly called the plays as mentioned.

 

https://pro-football-history.com/franchpos/7/7/buffalo-bills-offensive-coordinator-history - seems the position was invented in 1978 or was recorded as of then...

 

Had the opportunity to watch a cliub Marv training camp practive at Fredonia State, lived down the slow pace, esp the position drills, picked-up with O versus D but by then the wife and kid were long for the car and the drive to Ohio...

 

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by First Round Bust

[Buftex]

1 hour ago, transient said:

Levy's hubris. For some reason I remember that he didn't really give Marchibroda the credit he deserved for the K-gun/no huddle concept and he thought Kelly was sufficient to keep it afloat without a true coordinator. It was a situation similar to wasting HOF talent on the defensive side of the ball with Walt Corey's putrid read and react BS.

Do you have any source for this, other than your memory?  If he were alive today, it may be news to Ted.

[transient]

6 minutes ago, Buftex said:

Do you have any source for this, other than your memory?  If he were alive today, it may be news to Ted.

I remember it being talked about at the time of Marchibroda's departure and the fact that Levy didn't replace him with a true OC. And, take it for what you will, there's this https://www.allsportswny.com/k-gun-creator-ted-marchibroda-not-forgotten/.

[djp14150]

1 hour ago, JohnNord said:

The other day, I couldn’t remember who the Bills offense coordinator during the SB era was after Ted Marchiabroda left to coach Indy.  
 

I looked it up only to find that there really wasn’t a direct replacement.  Marv did two things - promoted running backs coach Elijah Pitts to Assistant HC and named Tom Bresnahan OC on top of duties as OL coach.   So it wasn’t a situation like we just had in Buffalo where Dorsey was promoted to OC and then Joe Brady was hired to take his job as QB coach.  
 

Does anyone remember what went into this decision to not replace Marchiabroda with someone from the outside?

 

Also what was the role of Elijah Pitts as Assistant HC?

 

Finally I noticed that Bresnahan along with DC Walt Corey had position responsibilities on top of their jobs as coordinators.  Was this something the Bills did to save money on coaches?  Oddly enough Marchiabroda was only OC.  
 

This was the start of my fandom so I don’t remember much things like this…

 

kellycalled the plays

[HOUSE]

2 hours ago, RochesterLifer said:

Ralph was cheap.

 

Losing a wallet is not uncommon now days

[NoHuddleKelly12]

 I believe it was one of the nfl films yearbook vids for the early 90’s teams that pointed out Ted was great at getting year over year improvement from JK, and this was sorely missed after he left. As good as Jim was, I wonder how much better he could’ve ended his career on had Ted stayed. Hopefully we won’t be saying the same thing about Daboll, but my gut tells me we won’t .

30 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

 

Losing a wallet is not uncommon now days

It’s a shame how often it happens to you during charitable fundraiser roll calls around here! 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, transient said:

I'm not a big Levy fan. He was good at getting a locker room full of big egos on the same page, for the most part, but he could never get out of the way of his own ego. If not for Polian providing the collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball there's no way he's a HOF coach. The lack of a true OC after Marchibroda, the wasted talent on defense with Corey, and his asinine insistence that the Bills could just "out execute" their opponent in the SB's as Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson outschemed and outcoached him to an embarrassing extent was infuriating. He was blinded by the fact the Bills were just that much more talented than the AFC for that stretch of the early 90s. He never figured out you couldn't win a championship on talent alone when you're up against a similarly talented opponent.

 

 

True that without his great players he's not a hall of fame coach.

 

But that's also true of every hall of fame coach. Marv was a very very good coach. 

 

Levy wasn't ignoring scheme. Don't know where you're getting that. The Bills did individual game prep and installation.

[billybrew1]

Yeah, Kelly ran the O like a kid in a yard. Andre turn the other way this time.....

etc.

Worked like a charm. Got Belicheat fired in Cleveland....

Yes, Marv was never big on strategy. He thought the game was pure execution.

But Belicheat watched Bill Walsh and others and then took strategy to a whole new level deciphering film to a whole new level and made dinosaurs like Levy obsolete. 
We really have little knowledge about Daboll's and company replacements, but they seem like good ideas. Hopefully Josh Allen's rise to dominance in the NFL will continue as planned. You almost know for sure that Beane will ensure Allen has the OL and weapons to continue to dominate (cuz last time I checked it's an eleven man game) .

[JohnNord]

2 hours ago, Buftex said:

I love revisionist history!

Can we go back and fire Marv?

 

Who’s saying that?  I’m just wondering why he didn’t directly replace Ted

59 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

True that without his great players he's not a hall of fame coach.

 

But that's also true of every hall of fame coach. Marv was a very very good coach. 

 

Levy wasn't ignoring scheme. Don't know where you're getting that. The Bills did individual game prep and installation.

I get the criticism of Levy and his staff though.  I think from an X’s and O’s standpoint they left a lot to be desired and were outcoached in every Super Bowl

[GunnerBill]

It is before my time but I think the answer has likely been given in this thread. Staffs were smaller. Marchibroda was OC and QB coach. When he left the Bills hired a QB coach but gave the OL coach the OC title. I guess it wasn't that uncommon around the league at the time.

[Dan Darragh]

12 hours ago, RochesterLifer said:

Ralph was cheap.

I remember when they were trying to sign Joe Cribbs (our star RB of the day) to a new contract in 1982.  Ralph offered him $150,000 plus $250 for every rushing yard.  Cribbs was about to accept it when Ralph said no, that was a mistake he meant to write $25 per rushing yard.

 

For those of you who weren't around, maybe that will help you understand why Buffalo was always seen as an undesirable place to play.

[BillnutinHouston]

An equally timely and relevant question is, why did it take Lincoln so long to replace General McClellan as General-in-Chief of the Union forces?

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

1 hour ago, BillnutinHouston said:

An equally timely and relevant question is, why did it take Lincoln so long to replace General McClellan as General-in-Chief of the Union forces?

Not to mention, why go with an over the hill, overly academic, Halleck as the next choice? Makes no sense. 
Lincoln is so overrated. Didn't think about strategy - his success was only due to great soldiers.  And he was cheap!

 

(Do I have that right as to how we do it here?)

[Bob in STL]

Ted gets way too much credit for the K-Gun or being some kind of innovator.   He was not.  The No Huddle’s success was not about any great OC scheme that he invented. It  was about having better talent on the field, getting favorable match ups,  and not letting the defense substitute.   These were the keys:  

 

1.   Kelly was excellent at reading defenses

2.  Kent Hull could read defenses and make line calls and the O-line was big, strong and athletic.  

3.  Our skill players had a lot of speed and HoF talent creating mismatches, and Thurman was an extremely versatile weapon.  
 

Ted’s offfense quite often didn’t produce results, leading us to use no the huddle in catch up situations.  The players realized that the no huddle was our best option and pushed for it.  
 

We replaced Ted with a position coach that covered two roles, not uncommon at the time.  The had an offensive assistant coach, Elijah Pitts, who also covered the RB position.   Ted himself coached the Bills QBs before he took the OC role.  

He has a career coaching record was 87–98–1 (.470) and 2–4 in the playoffs.   

 

 

 

[K-9]

14 hours ago, transient said:

I'm not a big Levy fan. He was good at getting a locker room full of big egos on the same page, for the most part, but he could never get out of the way of his own ego. If not for Polian providing the collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball there's no way he's a HOF coach. The lack of a true OC after Marchibroda, the wasted talent on defense with Corey, and his asinine insistence that the Bills could just "out execute" their opponent in the SB's as Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson outschemed and outcoached him to an embarrassing extent was infuriating. He was blinded by the fact the Bills were just that much more talented than the AFC for that stretch of the early 90s. He never figured out you couldn't win a championship on talent alone when you're up against a similarly talented opponent.

Per the bold, I’d be interested in seeing a list of HOF coaches that didn’t have a collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball. 

[Bill from NYC]

14 hours ago, transient said:

I'm not a big Levy fan. He was good at getting a locker room full of big egos on the same page, for the most part, but he could never get out of the way of his own ego. If not for Polian providing the collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball there's no way he's a HOF coach. The lack of a true OC after Marchibroda, the wasted talent on defense with Corey, and his asinine insistence that the Bills could just "out execute" their opponent in the SB's as Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson outschemed and outcoached him to an embarrassing extent was infuriating. He was blinded by the fact the Bills were just that much more talented than the AFC for that stretch of the early 90s. He never figured out you couldn't win a championship on talent alone when you're up against a similarly talented opponent.

The above is obviously not going over very well. One can't blame Bills Fans for being sentimental and nostalgic at the menotion of Marv.

That said, I've got your back. He was (imo) a so-so coach in every department other than soothing the egos of star players (which admittedly was important with those Super Bowl Bills teams).

 

Now if you think he was average at best as a coach, think about just how awful he was as a GM. The 2006 draft was monumentally stupid. It was bad beyond comprehension, much like the hiring of Dick Jauron. Do you remember when he "promised" Nate Clements that he wouldn't use the franchise tag on him?  

 

Levy always seemed like a nice man and I give him credit for trying, but there are several posters on this board who would have drafted better players for the Bufalo Bills, and I mean this. 

 

Jmo.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

16 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

The above is obviously not going over very well. One can't blame Bills Fans for being sentimental and nostalgic at the menotion of Marv.

That said, I've got your back. He was (imo) a so-so coach in every department other than soothing the egos of star players (which admittedly was important with those Super Bowl Bills teams).

 

Now if you think he was average at best as a coach, think about just how awful he was as a GM. The 2006 draft was monumentally stupid. It was bad beyond comprehension, much like the hiring of Dick Jauron. Do you remember when he "promised" Nate Clements that he wouldn't use the franchise tag on him?  

 

Levy always seemed like a nice man and I give him credit for trying, but there are several posters on this board who would have drafted better players for the Bufalo Bills, and I mean this. 

 

Jmo.

He was past his time when brought back as a GM. 

In terms of your assessment of him as a coach...of course you are welcome to your opinion, but the data indicates your opinion is incorrect. 

 

Some career highlights:

University of New Mexico - 14-6 record in two seasons and named coach of the year one of those seasons

College of William & Mary - twice coach of the year in five years

Montreal in the CFL - three Gray Cup appearances and two championships in five years. Named coach of the year once. 

KC - improved a putrid team's record for 3 straight years before being fired in year 5. The team regressed and didn't become a winner until 4 years later. 

Bills - 8 playoff appearances and 4 super bowl appearances in 11 seasons. Named coach of the year once. 

This is a "so-so" coach?

 

But hey, you probably have a master's degree from Harvard and a 46 year football coaching career that qualifies you to criticize his coaching capability. 

 

[3rdnlng]

3 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

An equally timely and relevant question is, why did it take Lincoln so long to replace General McClellan as General-in-Chief of the Union forces?

Fax machine failure. 

[Bill from NYC]

47 minutes ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

He was past his time when brought back as a GM. 

In terms of your assessment of him as a coach...of course you are welcome to your opinion, but the data indicates your opinion is incorrect. 

 

Some career highlights:

University of New Mexico - 14-6 record in two seasons and named coach of the year one of those seasons

College of William & Mary - twice coach of the year in five years

Montreal in the CFL - three Gray Cup appearances and two championships in five years. Named coach of the year once. 

KC - improved a putrid team's record for 3 straight years before being fired in year 5. The team regressed and didn't become a winner until 4 years later. 

Bills - 8 playoff appearances and 4 super bowl appearances in 11 seasons. Named coach of the year once. 

This is a "so-so" coach?

 

But hey, you probably have a master's degree from Harvard and a 46 year football coaching career that qualifies you to criticize his coaching capability. 

 

You don't need a master's degree from Harvard to know that he was outcoached in some of those Super Bowls. 

 

When Reed, Thomas, Kelly and Smith were getting older, Levy made little effort to replace them. He just kept drafting defensive backs in a league that was far more run oriented at the time. The team went straight downhill and Levy was reduced to standing next to Mauck and accompanying him in a screaming, spitting, foul mouthed, useless duet. I guess that you never noticed these trivial things.

 

In any case, thanks so much for allowing me to post opinions on a message board.  It matters.

[hondo in seattle]

16 hours ago, transient said:

I'm not a big Levy fan. He was good at getting a locker room full of big egos on the same page, for the most part, but he could never get out of the way of his own ego. If not for Polian providing the collection of HOF talent on both sides of the ball there's no way he's a HOF coach. The lack of a true OC after Marchibroda, the wasted talent on defense with Corey, and his asinine insistence that the Bills could just "out execute" their opponent in the SB's as Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson outschemed and outcoached him to an embarrassing extent was infuriating. He was blinded by the fact the Bills were just that much more talented than the AFC for that stretch of the early 90s. He never figured out you couldn't win a championship on talent alone when you're up against a similarly talented opponent.

 

You're not but Kelly, Bruce, Thurman, et al.    Since they know Marv just a slight bit more than you, I'll value their evaluations a slight bit more than I value theirs.

 

You do realize, don't you, that the performance of a player isn't solely a result of his innate talent?  The best coaches tap hidden potential and train players to perform at their very best.  They develop schemes that allow the players to shine.  

 

Just to give one example, look at Archie Manning.  Probably as much innate talente as his sons but he never sniffed a Super Bowl, never accomplished what his kids accomplished, because he didn't enjoy the same superior coaching and surrounding cast.  

 

It's true that Kelly and Company helped put Marv in the HOF.   It's also true he helped them get there as well.  

[JohnNord]

4 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

An equally timely and relevant question is, why did it take Lincoln so long to replace General McClellan as General-in-Chief of the Union forces?

Thanks for adding nothing 

[Nextmanup]

16 hours ago, chris heff said:

I don’t think replacing a coach like Ted Marchibroda is that easy. 

They could have at least tried to replace him...with an actual new body brought in from the outside.  

 

As noted above, Ralph was cheap.

 

 

[Beerball]

20 hours ago, RochesterLifer said:

It felt like a funny response. Perhaps I was mistaken.

It was my first thought too. Good call.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

3 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

You don't need a master's degree from Harvard to know that he was outcoached in some of those Super Bowls. 

 

When Reed, Thomas, Kelly and Smith were getting older, Levy made little effort to replace them. He just kept drafting defensive backs in a league that was far more run oriented at the time. The team went straight downhill and Levy was reduced to standing next to Mauck and accompanying him in a screaming, spitting, foul mouthed, useless duet. I guess that you never noticed these trivial things.

 

In any case, thanks so much for allowing me to post opinions on a message board.  It matters.

If you don't like the Bills drafts in the latter part of the Levy era I think that is on Polian and Butler. Unlike today's setup where McDermott reports to the owner, same as Beane, back then Levy reported up through the GM. I'm sure he had influence but not the final call. 

 

He was outcoached to varying degrees in those Super Bowls. That was against fellow Hall-of-Famers Parcells, Gibbs, and Johnson. Meanwhile in the playoffs he was schooling Shula, Cowher, and Flores, also all in the HOF. 

 

I don't know about 'trivial' things, I just noticed his 5 coach of the year awards in 4 different leagues, across 5 different decades. 

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Thanks for adding nothing 

I don't know...I laughed at it. And I thought your original post was interesting!