Dorsey ran a lot of 12 personnel packages

[78thealltimegreat]

I know Daboll ran what Chris Simms called a “Patriots light” offense where he took many of his concepts from his Pats days here.

So figured I’d watch Kens time with the Miami hurricanes and he ran an awful lot of 2 TE…1 Back style stuff…now it could be the insane talent they had at those positions but was thinking this might factor into the Bills free agent and draft decisions as well. 
Either way it looks like we are getting a lot of play action in his offense as he loved to do that Miami 

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Knox + Gronk 

 

I like 12 if both of your TE's are good.

 

Good way to keep the ball moving,   bolster the run game and open up the deep play action passing game.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Josh thrived with play action...so that would be a huge plus.

 

That said, being he ran that offense in college doesn't mean it is something he runs now. People evolve and learn. We will see soon what Dorsey's philosophy is.

[Jim Bob]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Josh thrived with play action...so that would be a huge plus.

 

That said, being he ran that offense in college doesn't mean it is something he runs now. People evolve and learn. We will see soon what Dorsey's philosophy is.

 

The Bills offense under Daboll and the Carolina offense when Dorsey was on the staff there likely have much bigger influences on how Dorsey will do things as OC than what he ran in college.

[transient]

Dorsey also had pre-injury McGahee in the backfield, so…

[Low Positive]

As the OP noted, that roster was f-ing loaded at RB and TE. If you had Frank Gore, Willis McGahee, Clinton Portis, Najeh Davenport, Jeremy Shockey, and Kellen Winslow Jr. on a single college roster, you'd run 12 personnel too. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, Jim Bob said:

 

The Bills offense under Daboll and the Carolina offense when Dorsey was on the staff there likely have much bigger influences on how Dorsey will do things as OC than what he ran in college.

Agree. I would also hope that Dorsey has a few original ideas to incorporate that seemed to escape Daboll from time to time last year. Such as generating better YAC, incorporating a better screen game. Different ideas to set up ALL available talent on offense to succeed. 

 

He's got a lot to prove. Let's hope he's up to it!

[LABILLBACKER]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Knox + Gronk 

 

I like 12 if both of your TE's are good.

 

Good way to keep the ball moving,   bolster the run game and open up the deep play action passing game.

Agree.....maybe we consider Gronk or Gesicki on a reasonable deal? Love the idea of bolstering our run game and advancing play action. 

[Jim Bob]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Agree. I would also hope that Dorsey has a few original ideas to incorporate that seemed to escape Daboll from time to time last year. Such as generating better YAC, incorporating a better screen game. Different ideas to set up ALL available talent on offense to succeed. 

 

He's got a lot to prove. Let's hope he's up to it!

 

I am sure that Dorsey will have his own take on things.

 

Plus, the personnel will change and that will likely allow him to do new things.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I would like to see a 2TE 3WR set with a WR like Deebo Samuel who is able to motion back to the RB position. In a hurry up offense I feel like this would wreak havoc and confuse the crap out of DC’s. If the 49ers had Allen they would be a lock for winning the SB this year. If I was Dorsey I would steal most of my plays from the 49ers play book. The 49ers play design and formations are brilliant and whoever the guy is there that is responsible for designing that running attack needs to be bronzed.

[Bangarang]

6 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Agree.....maybe we consider Gronk or Gesicki on a reasonable deal? Love the idea of bolstering our run game and advancing play action. 

Gesicki is going to get paid. 

[wvbillsfan]

Let’s stick with modern football 

11 personnel as our dominant offense

 

i don't want to go backwards in time. 

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

 Such as generating better YAC. 

 

I took a look.  Bills were last in the league in YAC per completion at 4.2.  49ers were best at 6.6.  

 

Bills were just average around the league in yards per attempt and yards per completion.   Both of those numbers would improve if the Bills could get another yard of YAC.  

 

On the other hand, the Bills were third in first downs, third in total plays, third in scoring, fifth in total yards on offense.   Hard to argue with that.  

 

So, I'd say YAC isn't the stat I'd target to improve.  

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I took a look.  Bills were last in the league in YAC per completion at 4.2.  49ers were best at 6.6.  

 

Bills were just average around the league in yards per attempt and yards per completion.   Both of those numbers would improve if the Bills could get another yard of YAC.  

 

On the other hand, the Bills were third in first downs, third in total plays, third in scoring, fifth in total yards on offense.   Hard to argue with that.  

 

So, I'd say YAC isn't the stat I'd target to improve.  

 

I would say that if we targeted to improve that part, it gives defenses another thing to worry about.

Makes us more whole.

[eball]

I would suggest that the point isn’t to get the ball out of Josh’s hands more quickly with short passes.  That takes away what he does best.

 

When you have a thoroughbred, you don’t enter him in harness races.

 

And again, NO to Gronk.  I couldn’t care less that his family still has a business in Buffalo.  He’s a tool who tried to end Tre’s career.

[34-78-83]

30 minutes ago, wvbillsfan said:

Let’s stick with modern football 

11 personnel as our dominant offense

 

i don't want to go backwards in time. 

Peyton Manning and his high flying passing offenses ran a ton of 12. If both TE's are good receivers AND good enough blockers, it balances the formation to where the defense can't really cheat to one side, creating an advantage.

[ngbills]

Dorsey played at Miami in the late 1990's/2000's. I think his coaching philosophy will come from his coaching experiences and even pro playing experiences more than his college QB days. 

[34-78-83]

1 minute ago, eball said:

I would suggest that the point isn’t to get the ball out of Josh’s hands more quickly with short passes.  That takes away what he does best.

 

When you have a thoroughbred, you don’t enter him in harness races.

 

And again, NO to Gronk.  I couldn’t care less that his family still has a business in Buffalo.  He’s a tool who tried to end Tre’s career.

Agree... I like the idea of a talented #2 TE, but I'll just never like Gronk no matter what after the WWF style hit (but real lol) on Tre Day

[BuffaloBillyG]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I took a look.  Bills were last in the league in YAC per completion at 4.2.  49ers were best at 6.6.  

 

Bills were just average around the league in yards per attempt and yards per completion.   Both of those numbers would improve if the Bills could get another yard of YAC.  

 

On the other hand, the Bills were third in first downs, third in total plays, third in scoring, fifth in total yards on offense.   Hard to argue with that.  

 

So, I'd say YAC isn't the stat I'd target to improve.  

Well, while what you say may very well be factually correct I struggle to accecpt league wide rankings as evidence of proof (pro or con) of improvements needed.

 

When offering data the cumulative outcome needs to be set by an equal means. In other words, the data is often compmrised due to factors that are inconsistent on a team by team basis. (Weather, opponent, field type, key injuries).

 

That said, I used YAC as an example of any area that could stand improvement. Not saying that's the only one. Could have also mentioned cashing in in the red zone more amoungst other things.

 

In any event it will be interesting to see the areas that Dorsey can help improve the offense and what areas may take a step back.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Irrelevant.

[Doc]

55 minutes ago, Jim Bob said:

The Bills offense under Daboll and the Carolina offense when Dorsey was on the staff there likely have much bigger influences on how Dorsey will do things as OC than what he ran in college.

 

This.  Josh is a totally different QB than Dorsey was.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Knox + Gronk 

 

I like 12 if both of your TE's are good.

 

Good way to keep the ball moving,   bolster the run game and open up the deep play action passing game.

Gronk could probably help Knox with some TE stuff.

 

Knox could probably help Gronk spell.

 

It’s a win-win

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

I would suggest that the point isn’t to get the ball out of Josh’s hands more quickly with short passes.  That takes away what he does best.

 

When you have a thoroughbred, you don’t enter him in harness races.

 

And again, NO to Gronk.  I couldn’t care less that his family still has a business in Buffalo.  He’s a tool who tried to end Tre’s career.

 

I love the "Gronk tried to murder Tre White"  "Gronk tried to end Tre White's career" takes.

 

He speared him on the ground after a play.........dirty, absolutely........but more career threatening things happen in the middle of the field all the time..........intentional low hits to defenseless receivers........intentional helmet to helmet collisions.

 

Brandon Beane showed how unforgivable he thought it was when he pursued Gronk in UFA last offseason.

 

The incident has been greatly exaggerated by a few people........including one notable wannabe honorary WNY'er living in the Carolina's who quit his season tickets in frustration when Sean McDermott was hired.     That guy was trying to end McDermott's career! 

[TBBills]

Cannot really look at college and think that is what they will do.

Edited February 2, 2022 by TBBills

[Doc]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I love the "Gronk tried to murder Tre White"  "Gronk tried to end Tre White's career" takes.

 

He speared him on the ground after a play.........dirty, absolutely........but more career threatening things happen in the middle of the field all the time..........intentional low hits to defenseless receivers........intentional helmet to helmet collisions.

 

Brandon Beane showed how unforgivable he thought it was when he pursued Gronk in UFA last offseason.

 

The incident has been greatly exaggerated by a few people........including one notable wannabe honorary WNY'er living in the Carolina's who quit his season tickets in frustration when Sean McDermott was hired.     That guy was trying to end McDermott's career! 

 

LOL!  Driving your arm, one with a solid brace, on someone's head/neck area while he's prone on the ground and unable to defend himself isn't the same as going low on another player or an inadvertent helmet-to-helmet in a split second play.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

LOL!  Driving your arm, one with a solid brace, on someone's head/neck area while he's prone on the ground and unable to defend himself isn't the same as going low on another player or an inadvertent helmet-to-helmet in a split second play.

 

 

Inadvertent vs intentional..........BOTH happen.

 

Like the difference between you and a real doctor. 

[CSBill]

21 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Peyton Manning and his high flying passing offenses ran a ton of 12. If both TE's are good receivers AND good enough blockers, it balances the formation to where the defense can't really cheat to one side, creating an advantage.

 

Also, Davis is a very good blocking WR. I can see him being used more in the slot in a hybrid TE-slot receiver type of role. From that he becomes more of an asset in the run game, but can also be utlize with his receiving and route running skills. ....But then again, after that last game it would be hard to remove him from that true WR set.

[DCofNC]

38 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I took a look.  Bills were last in the league in YAC per completion at 4.2.  49ers were best at 6.6.  

 

Bills were just average around the league in yards per attempt and yards per completion.   Both of those numbers would improve if the Bills could get another yard of YAC.  

 

On the other hand, the Bills were third in first downs, third in total plays, third in scoring, fifth in total yards on offense.   Hard to argue with that.  

 

So, I'd say YAC isn't the stat I'd target to improve.  

 

32 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I would say that if we targeted to improve that part, it gives defenses another thing to worry about.

Makes us more whole.

YAC is great, don’t get me wrong, but if you had the very BEST YAC, you would average 2.4 yards more per throw, so let’s say 40 throws, it’s 100ish yards a game, sounds huge!  Here is where I have to look at the rest of it and say, take this team out of Buffalo Weather and the team would be first in every other category for passing.   Sometimes it’s footing that causes no YAC, sometimes it’s a pass to the end zone that causes no YAC, sometimes it’s out routes that cause no YAC, sometimes it’s just the play design to get to the sticks and dive forward, get the first and move on.   The other reality of YAC is more routes will be middle of the field to make it happen, which means bigger collisions.   It can also mean your routes are shorter/quicker routes that give your receivers a seam to work and get more YAC.  This offense, with Allen, didn’t get a lot of YAC because he holds the ball forever and throws deep, much easier to get next to nothing after a catch when the ball travels 30 yards in the air and the defenders have a chance to react for a quicker tackle.  He also throws deep to the end zone A LOT, again, you get no YAC.   The O was not a problem, there’s nothing that needs changing, with Allen at the helm and playing the way he does, you aren’t going to be a lead leader in YAC.    
 

Could more dynamic players yield more YAC? Yep.  Throw a Deebow or Chase or Lamb or Hill on this roster and their raw ability after the catch will get you more.  The cast we have is not a scary one, Diggs isn’t a burner, fast enough, but not a burner.  Beasley goes down super fast to avoid being killed, Davis is probably the most dynamic WR we have and a lot of his routes are to the sideline.  McKenzie and Sanders never really got involved, they should have been your middle of the field find quick catches and turn it into 15, but that didn’t happen, be it scheme or what.   
 

I think some areas that could make the O better would be more crossing routes, a few more quick passes in the middle of zones, we liked to go outside to the back quite a bit it seemed, and more dynamic guys in the field.  This team lacks a true difference maker on O.  I know I’ll take heat for it, but Diggs is a possession guy, he doesn’t strike fear in the D.  Frustrate them?

 Maybe.  Same goes for everyone on the roster really.  Davis really is the only guy who has both size and speed enough to be a problem at WR.  McKenzie has the speed and quickness, but something obviously didn’t allow him to be used more.   Knox could be more of a weapon and got used as such a few times this year, but he’s not enough of a focus to scare teams either.  
 

If I were to tweak the O, to try to maximize output, I’d look to use Knox more in the passing game.  I’d try to get the running game going like it was late in the year and use more play action and lastly, I’d let Davis take over as the #1 and turn him loose on more than sideline routes.  Diggs will still get plenty, but I’d move him inside more and let him be the best Slot guy in the NFL. He can play anywhere, so moving him around more should get him more looks and  make him harder to take out of games.  Of course it is all so easy to sit here and say all that, but this team was great on O and the coordinator who made it click so well was good enough to get a HC job and I’m a nobody.  There may be a good reason that we don’t see that he favored what he did. 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I know Daboll ran what Chris Simms called a “Patriots light” offense where he took many of his concepts from his Pats days here.

So figured I’d watch Kens time with the Miami hurricanes and he ran an awful lot of 2 TE…1 Back style stuff…now it could be the insane talent they had at those positions but was thinking this might factor into the Bills free agent and draft decisions as well. 
Either way it looks like we are getting a lot of play action in his offense as he loved to do that Miami 

 

He is going to work with the talent he has here...what you do is usually a reflection of what you feel your best options lie. There is zero chance that he believes his best options lie with 12 personnel here. And if he does he should be fired immediately.

[Mango]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

As the OP noted, that roster was f-ing loaded at RB and TE. If you had Frank Gore, Willis McGahee, Clinton Portis, Najeh Davenport, Jeremy Shockey, and Kellen Winslow Jr. on a single college roster, you'd run 12 personnel too. 

 

Honestly, just sub out Davenport for Andre Johnson. Even then you have to sub somebody out to get 5 OL out there, or a TE has to line up on the line and declare as eligible. 

 

Wild to think about. 

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Knox + Gronk 

 

I like 12 if both of your TE's are good.

 

Good way to keep the ball moving,   bolster the run game and open up the deep play action passing game.

Would be amazing if Gronk can stay healthy 

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Well, while what you say may very well be factually correct I struggle to accecpt league wide rankings as evidence of proof (pro or con) of improvements needed.

 

When offering data the cumulative outcome needs to be set by an equal means. In other words, the data is often compmrised due to factors that are inconsistent on a team by team basis. (Weather, opponent, field type, key injuries).

 

That said, I used YAC as an example of any area that could stand improvement. Not saying that's the only one. Could have also mentioned cashing in in the red zone more amoungst other things.

 

In any event it will be interesting to see the areas that Dorsey can help improve the offense and what areas may take a step back.

 

 

Agreed. but the stats are nevertheless useful to point out what kind of improvement one might expect.  To go from worst to first, Bills would be getting 2 more yards after catch on each completion.  That would be 800 more yards per season, which would have left the Bills second in the league in passing yards, up from ninth.   While that would be nice, none of that strikes me as the thing that would make a real difference in the team.

 

The fact is that the Bills were an excellent team in 2021, and I'd be happy if they showed no statistical improvement anywhere.  In terms of production, and defense, they were good enough.   Heck, they were excellent.  

 

What they need are things that don't reduce themselves to stats very well.  As you say, red zone performance is something that would be nice to improve.  That too can be measured by stats, but the stats don't reflect real efficiency there.   In fact, I didn't think the Bills had very good plays inside the five, and that is one area where I hope Dorsey can be more creative than Daboll.  

 

Frankly, so long as Dorsey doesn't screw things up, defense is where I'd like to see improvements.   I'd like to see more free runners at the QB, either for the sack or at least to drive the QB off his spot and disrupt the timing of the opponents' offense.  Whether they get that by scheme or adding some talent doesn't matter..  I'd like to see a defense that gives me more confidence that it can make big-play, fourth quarter stops.  

 

I think with better creativity, the Bills offense could be spectacular, but I think it's creativity on defense that the Bills need to win the games they lost this season.

[eball]

32 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

The incident has been greatly exaggerated by a few people........including one notable wannabe honorary WNY'er living in the Carolina's who quit his season tickets in frustration when Sean McDermott was hired.  

 

Amazing how you despise and insult me for holding your feet to the fire and not bowing down to your self-congratulatory football prowess.

 

Pretty sad.

 

[Hebert19]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Knox + Gronk 

 

I like 12 if both of your TE's are good.

 

Good way to keep the ball moving,   bolster the run game and open up the deep play action passing game.

This.  And saves us needing to find another WR. 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Would be amazing if Gronk can stay healthy 

 

 

Or if he doesn't just hit the wall as a player should he decide to actually play in 2022.    

 

He was tremendously productive this year though............some Bills fans think he was just an "ok" TE still.........but between his production as a receiver and his ability to block he was certainly a top 10 TE and arguably a top 5 TE.     

 

I wouldn't be as high on the idea if they had a really great option as a YAC producing slot receiver.........but not a lot of good matches $ wise and talent wise at that position in UFA.........and while I like the late 1st round receiver prospects you don't want to be reliant on one in 2022.  

 

I readily admit that Brady did a great job leading his receivers.......which is a bit different than how the Bills offense has done it..........but Gronk averaged almost 15 yards per reception and would have lead Bills receivers in YAC per play based on numbers alone.

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Doc]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Inadvertent vs intentional..........BOTH happen.

 

Like the difference between you and a real doctor. 

 

BOTH happen?  LOL!  

 

That's dumber than your usual stuff.

[RyanC883]

2 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Gesicki is going to get paid. 

 

perhaps Gronk takes a discount to win in Buffalo before retiring. ?  (only if Tre is okay with the idea). 

 

Like the idea of opening up the play action more. 

[34-78-83]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I love the "Gronk tried to murder Tre White"  "Gronk tried to end Tre White's career" takes.

 

He speared him on the ground after a play.........dirty, absolutely........but more career threatening things happen in the middle of the field all the time..........intentional low hits to defenseless receivers........intentional helmet to helmet collisions.

 

Brandon Beane showed how unforgivable he thought it was when he pursued Gronk in UFA last offseason.

 

The incident has been greatly exaggerated by a few people........including one notable wannabe honorary WNY'er living in the Carolina's who quit his season tickets in frustration when Sean McDermott was hired.     That guy was trying to end McDermott's career! 

Part of being a fan is my right to hate Gronk no matter how rational it may be or how good he is ... Not just for the hit, but for being a Patriot, and a boneheaded dufus clown. I'd hate to see that nimrod on the Bills.

[RyanC883]

1 minute ago, 34-78-83 said:

Part of being a fan is my right to hate Gronk no matter how rational it may be or how good he is ... Not just for the hit, but for being a Patriot, and a boneheaded dufus clown. I'd hate to see that nimrod on the Bills.

 

I get it.  I’d be okay with it only if Tre is.  That said I would never want brady as qb.  We don’t have to make sense as fans!  

[stinky finger]

2 hours ago, wvbillsfan said:

Let’s stick with modern football 

11 personnel as our dominant offense

 

i don't want to go backwards in time. 

 How about not married to any one type? 
 

Diversify - get the opposing D on their heels. 

1 hour ago, eball said:

I would suggest that the point isn’t to get the ball out of Josh’s hands more quickly with short passes.  That takes away what he does best.

 

When you have a thoroughbred, you don’t enter him in harness races.

 

And again, NO to Gronk.  I couldn’t care less that his family still has a business in Buffalo.  He’s a tool who tried to end Tre’s career.

Gotta move on. Gronk would do well here. 
 

They’d bury the hatchet for the greater good.