Week 12: Bills at Saints on Thanksgiving

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

Our D is better than last year.  What happened then?

I'm not saying the D played well at all, but the Colts did get two scores on short fields because of turnovers. On the other hand, in the past three games Allen has 5 interceptions and 8 interception-worthy throws along with 2 fumbles and what should have been a third (vs. Jax at the end of the game; that was absolutely a fumble). The backs fumbled it twice vs. the Jets, Sweeney fumbled it once vs. Jax, and McKenzie fumbled it vs. Indy too. That is 17 turnover-worthy plays in 3 games (5.67 per game), which is terrible. No matter how the D plays, you're not going to win when you have that level of carelessness with the football.

Edited November 23, 2021 by dave mcbride

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Any updates on Edmunds or Lotulelei?

[YoloinOhio]

20 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Any updates on Edmunds or Lotulelei?

Edmunds practiced in full yesterday (it was only a walk through)

 

Star won’t be activated until Wednesday at the earliest 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Getting Stevenson back could give us some much needed speed and let McKenzie focus solely on WR (Not that he’s a bad KR)

[uninja]

31 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I'm not saying the D played well at all, but the Colts did get two scores on short fields because of turnovers. On the other hand, in the past three games Allen has 5 interceptions and 8 interception-worthy throws along with 2 fumbles and what should have been a third (vs. Jax at the end of the game; that was absolutely a fumble). The backs fumbled it twice vs. the Jets and Sweeney once vs. Jax too. That is 16 turnover-worthy plays in 3 games (5.33 per game), which is terrible. No matter how the D plays, you're not going to win when you have that level of carelessness with the football.

 

Yeah the sloppiness with the football is killing us like it was crushing the Chiefs earlier this year. If we can clean up the turnovers and just play patient football we can win games. We have the defense to do it (well...most of the time lmao). We don't need to drop 30-40 burgers on teams every week (although...cool). I'll take ugly, gritty W's as long as they're W's. Lord knows I've seen enough ugly football (and some wins) played by the Bills in the last 20 years 😂

[dave mcbride]

Just now, uninja said:

 

Yeah the sloppiness with the football is killing us like it was crushing the Chiefs earlier this year. If we can clean up the turnovers and just play patient football we can win games. We have the defense to do it (well...most of the time lmao). We don't need to drop 30-40 burgers on teams every week (although...cool). I'll take ugly, gritty W's as long as they're W's. Lord knows I've seen enough ugly football (and some wins) played by the Bills in the last 20 years 😂

I actually forgot the McKenzie fumble! I'll add that to the list.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

While McDermott says "everything is on the table", it's really hard for me to imagine Stevenson being activated after a short practice week for such an important game.

I find it much more likely that he'd be activated for the Monday nighter against the Pats, since there'd be a 10 day runup to make sure he's acclimated and ready to roll.

[YoloinOhio]

fwiw 

[John from Riverside]

Stevenson isnt saving this team.......he could be good for a big play or two

 

What would save this team is a combo of our D finding their balls and Matt Brieda being on the field a WHOLE lot more

[Thriftygamer83]

Right now I thin we'll be more likely to put everything on the table.  We've seen this season all but slip away.  Considering the hype it's time to be honest.  We're most likely not going to be in the playoffs and the offensive line is pretty much the reason why.  Trading, cutting, and using the practice squad will be on the table for next year.  We expected to much me I don't know if we'll even be around for the second quarter to match the rushing offense and our offensive linemen couldn't block a cold.

1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Stevenson isnt saving this team.......he could be good for a big play or two

 

What would save this team is a combo of our D finding their balls and Matt Brieda being on the field a WHOLE lot more

The defensive line is in limbo right now.  It's only really an average line which rarely performed and in the clutch has fallen off completely.  Ed Oliver might just be looking at being gone for a second round or a couple more down the road.  

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

Why not just let McKenzie be that guy and have Stevenson just handle the return duties? Get McKenzie back in the offense like he used to be 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Mat68]

Stevenson might provide some juice the offense is missing.  Running past people is a skill he seems to have it.  Mckenzie muffs another return he can fill in there too.  More speed on offense.  Brieda, Stevenson, Mckenzie all have it. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, SWATeam said:

IMO, offense is more of the issue.  Our D is built to be elite at defending the pass to compliment our explosive offense that should have teams chasing points.  When our O is not working, it allows teams to be content pounding us on the ground.

 

 

 

I agree that is probably how McDermott sees it.    But the reality is that more draft capital and $ has been invested into the defense under McBeane.   

 

A lot of people think this is some outrageously talented offense........it is not.

 

Josh Allen and Stef Diggs are pro bowl players.

 

Beasley and Sanders are vets who are well on the backside of their careers athletically.    Davis is a player with decent potential but a lot of teams have that guy who may never really pan out due to injuries(bad ankles have hindered him both years) or inconsistency(has stretches of inexplicable drops).    Knox is the best we've had in a while but he's not an elite TE and it remains to be seen if he ever will.........TE's like him come and go with other teams........we just aren't used to having one with talent.......and their depth at TE is maybe the worst in the NFL.    Obviously, the OL has been hindered by the dropoffs from Dawkins and Williams and we knew coming in that the interior OL was going to be mediocre.   Running backs are plenty good........it's not an important position to have great talent at........but they are ordinary.   They aren't a naturally explosive offense.........they are an ordinary unit with a dynamic QB.

 

What has happened is that it's turned into the Josh Allen show this season.........he's trying to carry the team to the heights they were at last season but a lot of players have regressed and he didn't have a roster full of #1 picks at his disposal on offense to begin with.    He's the only one on the entire offense who was a first round draft pick.    On defense.......a lot more athletic pedigree.......6 first round draft picks.    The defense is basically designed to protect leads now but the offensive talent is overrated.

[Arkady Renko]

Sorry, who are the Bills cutting to get Stevenson on the roster?

[YoloinOhio]

Just now, Arkady Renko said:

Sorry, who are the Bills cutting to get Stevenson on the roster?

They have an open roster spot 

[Process]

If the Bills can't beat the Saints and do it convincingly with all the injuries they are dealing with, it's basically a wrap for the season..

 

It's looking like they will be down their starting QB, #1 WR, starting RB, starting TE, two starting OTs and the backup OT who was replacing the other guys. Geez.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Process

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I know and I just don't get it.  I'm going to be a broken record here but the Bills had only two freaking possessions between the opening KO and the two minute warning.  TWO!  And they scored a TD on one of them and had a nice drive going until back to back penalties killed it. When the Bills got the ball for the only the 3rd time in the first half they were already down 24 - 7.

 

This should be the universal talking point of the coaches and those that get paid to cover the Bills.  I don't know why it isn't?

 

 

 

I'm not arguing this POV just trying to get into McD's head a little bit

I think he believes that the defensive scheme is sound and that on D, it's a matter of players executing.  He did call out stupid penalties, and physicality at the point of attack, as defensive problems.

 

(I would argue not being able to stop the Titans or Colts argues a schematic and a personnel weakness.  Like I said, just trying to get into his head)

 

I think he believes that the offense is not sound, going back to last year's playoffs - that we don't have enough of a run threat to make teams respect it.  This is an issue I suspect he's raised over and over and over again with Daboll, and it's not getting fixed.  Now there are back-and-forth arguments there - we don't necessarily have the OL to run consistently, and we definitely don't have the RBs who can make yards without blocking.  After Pittsburgh, an argument could be made that it was the surprise, and a top-quality DL

 

But it's now become clear that pretty much any D can handle us on O.  The Colts are NOT the defense we could barely handle in last year's playoffs.  Their DL isn't as good, their LB is playing hurt, and they're missing their starting safeties, and they killed us.

 

I think that McDermott and Daboll have a genuine difference of philosophy on how to fix the offense, and Daboll has his fingers in his ears going "Lalala not listening" or maybe "fix your own show, Mr Defense" and that's why we keep hearing about it at McD's pressers. 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

They have an open roster spot 

 

Because of Star and Brown on Covid, right?

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Allen had a turnover-worthy play on the second drive on yet another forced pass. They were lucky it wasn’t a turnover. When analyzing performance, you have to factor that in. 

 

It wasn't a forced pass. It was a miscommunication with Diggs.

 

 

This is the case on a lot of interceptions, not just for Allen. It always looks like the QB's fault. If Diggs had continued coming back to the ball it would be a catch.

[SWATeam]

2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I agree that is probably how McDermott sees it.    But the reality is that more draft capital and $ has been invested into the defense under McBeane.   

 

A lot of people think this is some outrageously talented offense........it is not.

 

Josh Allen and Stef Diggs are pro bowl players.

 

Beasley and Sanders are vets who are well on the backside of their careers athletically.    Davis is a player with decent potential but a lot of teams have that guy who may never really pan out due to injuries(bad ankles have hindered him both years) or inconsistency(has stretches of inexplicable drops).    Knox is the best we've had in a while but he's not an elite TE and it remains to be seen if he ever will.........TE's like him come and go with other teams........we just aren't used to having one with talent.......and their depth at TE is maybe the worst in the NFL.    Obviously, the OL has been hindered by the dropoffs from Dawkins and Williams and we knew coming in that the interior OL was going to be mediocre.   Running backs are plenty good........it's not an important position to have great talent at........but they are ordinary.   They aren't a naturally explosive offense.........they are an ordinary unit with a dynamic QB.

 

What has happened is that it's turned into the Josh Allen show this season.........he's trying to carry the team to the heights they were at last season but a lot of players have regressed and he didn't have a roster full of #1 picks at his disposal on offense to begin with.    He's the only one on the entire offense who was a first round draft pick.    On defense.......a lot more athletic pedigree.......6 first round draft picks.    The defense is basically designed to protect leads now but the offensive talent is overrated.

I agree with regards to investment.  ROI on the D line has been poor to say the least.

 

I think our offensive weapons are fine, especially with the emergence of Knox.  Oline issues are a bit of bad luck, IMO, with Dawkins (probably COVID related) and Williams regression, and Feliciano's surprise weight loss- not that he was anything special.  Brown seems to be a nice find.  Overall, I don't see any real personnel reasons for our offensive regression from last year.  And when you have an MVP caliber $250M QB, he's supposed to elevate those around him.

 

I'd like to see us go back to more of a spread attack.  Seemed to work really well last year with Josh getting rid of the ball quickly neutralizing some oline deficiencies.  Some of these quick hitters can be a substitute for an ineffective run game as well.  Long developing plays are causing more problems than they're worth. 

[FilthyBeast]

12 minutes ago, Arkady Renko said:

Sorry, who are the Bills cutting to get Stevenson on the roster?

 

I can list at least 10 useless and worthless wastes of roster space to make room starting with Butler, Ford, Moss, etc.

[Son of a K-Gun]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I agree that is probably how McDermott sees it.    But the reality is that more draft capital and $ has been invested into the defense under McBeane.   

 

A lot of people think this is some outrageously talented offense........it is not.

 

Josh Allen and Stef Diggs are pro bowl players.

 

Beasley and Sanders are vets who are well on the backside of their careers athletically.    Davis is a player with decent potential but a lot of teams have that guy who may never really pan out due to injuries(bad ankles have hindered him both years) or inconsistency(has stretches of inexplicable drops).    Knox is the best we've had in a while but he's not an elite TE and it remains to be seen if he ever will.........TE's like him come and go with other teams........we just aren't used to having one with talent.......and their depth at TE is maybe the worst in the NFL.    Obviously, the OL has been hindered by the dropoffs from Dawkins and Williams and we knew coming in that the interior OL was going to be mediocre.   Running backs are plenty good........it's not an important position to have great talent at........but they are ordinary.   They aren't a naturally explosive offense.........they are an ordinary unit with a dynamic QB.

 

What has happened is that it's turned into the Josh Allen show this season.........he's trying to carry the team to the heights they were at last season but a lot of players have regressed and he didn't have a roster full of #1 picks at his disposal on offense to begin with.    He's the only one on the entire offense who was a first round draft pick.    On defense.......a lot more athletic pedigree.......6 first round draft picks.    The defense is basically designed to protect leads now but the offensive talent is overrated.

Good point.  There is a lack of premium talent on the offensive side of the ball and the team has done little to address it.  There are only two first round picks on offense and one of them is the backup QB.  You could make an argument that Diggs is a de facto first rounder since the Bills traded their first round pick for him, but after Allen and Diggs there isn't much.  And people wonder why we rely so much on Josh...

[Stank_Nasty]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It wasn't a forced pass. It was a miscommunication with Diggs.

 

 

This is the case on a lot of interceptions, not just for Allen. It always looks like the QB's fault. If Diggs had continued coming back to the ball it would be a catch.

These guys made so much hay off of play extensions last year. Doesnt seem to be clicking nearly as well this season.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

It wasn't a forced pass. It was a miscommunication with Diggs.

 

 

This is the case on a lot of interceptions, not just for Allen. It always looks like the QB's fault. If Diggs had continued coming back to the ball it would be a catch.

Good link - thanks. Diggs is regarded by pretty much everyone as one of the best and most precise route runners in the league. Who knows who did the miscommunicating there. Regardless of who was at fault, they gotta clean stuff up. 

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Good link - thanks. Diggs is regarded by pretty much everyone as one of the best and most precise route runners in the league. Who knows who did the miscommunicating there. Regardless of who was at fault, they gotta clean stuff up. 

 

This is the problem with option routes, which the Bills run a ton of. If the QB and WR aren't on the same page it is likely to be a turnover-worthy play.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I agree that is probably how McDermott sees it.    But the reality is that more draft capital and $ has been invested into the defense under McBeane.

 

I see that last part of the sentence as true: $50M cap on D, $41M cap on O.  And "to whom much is given, much should be expected" ought to hold. 

 

The point about Allen being our only 1st round draft pick, (or Allen and Diggs if you count him), is valid; we have 4 of our own and 3 (I think - Butler, Hughes, and Lotulelei) of other team's 1st round picks on the roster.

 

But a different draft perspective, if you look at the top 3 rounds of the last 4 years drafts, is that there's been a roughly equal investment (if you count Diggs as equivalent to a #1 pick since that's what we invested in him) on offense and defense. 

 

The problem may be that we aren't getting the quality of play we need from the picks on either side of the ball - I don't lke the word "Bust", but they're not the consistent contributors we need picks in the top 3 rounds to be, and moreso on Offense than Defense.  Since 2018:

6 picks on D : Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa, Oliver, Edmunds, Phillips

6 picks on O : Brown, Moss, Ford, Singletary, Knox, Allen (plus Diggs)

 

Overall, that Rousseau, Epenesa, Oliver, and Edmunds have shown some signs they can play.

Knox is just starting to have the lightbulb flicker, Brown looks promising, Ford looks like a total bust at this point.  Singletary and Moss look like guys you could elevate from a practice squad at this point.

 

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

A lot of people think this is some outrageously talented offense........it is not.

 

Josh Allen and Stef Diggs are pro bowl players.

 

Beasley and Sanders are vets who are well on the backside of their careers athletically.    Davis is a player with decent potential but a lot of teams have that guy who may never really pan out due to injuries(bad ankles have hindered him both years) or inconsistency(has stretches of inexplicable drops).    Knox is the best we've had in a while but he's not an elite TE and it remains to be seen if he ever will.........TE's like him come and go with other teams........we just aren't used to having one with talent.......and their depth at TE is maybe the worst in the NFL.    Obviously, the OL has been hindered by the dropoffs from Dawkins and Williams and we knew coming in that the interior OL was going to be mediocre.   Running backs are plenty good........it's not an important position to have great talent at........but they are ordinary.   They aren't a naturally explosive offense.........they are an ordinary unit with a dynamic QB.

 

What has happened is that it's turned into the Josh Allen show this season.........he's trying to carry the team to the heights they were at last season but a lot of players have regressed and he didn't have a roster full of #1 picks at his disposal on offense to begin with.    He's the only one on the entire offense who was a first round draft pick.    On defense.......a lot more athletic pedigree.......6 first round draft picks.    The defense is basically designed to protect leads now but the offensive talent is overrated.

 

Yep.

 

Not only have players regressed or fallen off, but there's a lot of tape out there on Josh Allen and the Bills offensive tendencies, and now a lot of tape out there on how to hinder it or shut it down.    The counters aren't rocket science, but we're not doing them or able to do them.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

Blue on Blue 

Edited November 23, 2021 by SlimShady'sSpaceForce

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Good link - thanks. Diggs is regarded by pretty much everyone as one of the best and most precise route runners in the league. Who knows who did the miscommunicating there. Regardless of who was at fault, they gotta clean stuff up. 

 

The way Daboll's offense is designed, it's both.  The WR has the freedom to run one of several different route options depending upon the coverage he sees after the snap.  The QB and the WR need to read the defense the same way and the WR needs to communicate to the QB *during the play* what he's going to do.

 

This is why Beasley and Allen talk so much about "body language" and "giving me good body language"

[FilthyBeast]

35 minutes ago, Process said:

If the Bills can't beat the Saints and do it convincingly with all the injuries they are dealing with, it's basically a wrap for the season..

 

It's looking like they will be down their starting QB, #1 WR, starting RB, starting TE, two starting OTs and the backup OT who was replacing the other guys. Geez.

 

Even if the Bills beat the Saints it's another mirage until the inevitable happens on national TV on MNF....and pretty sure most fans know what I'm talking about so don't need to describe it in detail here.

[Process]

Just now, FilthyBeast said:

 

Even if the Bills beat the Saints it's another mirage until the inevitable happens on national TV on MNF....and pretty sure most fans know what I'm talking about so don't need to describe it in detail here.

Oh shut up

[YoloinOhio]

49 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

I'm not arguing this POV just trying to get into McD's head a little bit

I think he believes that the defensive scheme is sound and that on D, it's a matter of players executing.  He did call out stupid penalties, and physicality at the point of attack, as defensive problems.

 

(I would argue not being able to stop the Titans or Colts argues a schematic and a personnel weakness.  Like I said, just trying to get into his head)

 

I think he believes that the offense is not sound, going back to last year's playoffs - that we don't have enough of a run threat to make teams respect it.  This is an issue I suspect he's raised over and over and over again with Daboll, and it's not getting fixed.  Now there are back-and-forth arguments there - we don't necessarily have the OL to run consistently, and we definitely don't have the RBs who can make yards without blocking.  After Pittsburgh, an argument could be made that it was the surprise, and a top-quality DL

 

But it's now become clear that pretty much any D can handle us on O.  The Colts are NOT the defense we could barely handle in last year's playoffs.  Their DL isn't as good, their LB is playing hurt, and they're missing their starting safeties, and they killed us.

 

I think that McDermott and Daboll have a genuine difference of philosophy on how to fix the offense, and Daboll has his fingers in his ears going "Lalala not listening" or maybe "fix your own show, Mr Defense" and that's why we keep hearing about it at McD's pressers. 

 

 

 

 

 

Because of Star and Brown on Covid, right?

If I’m looking at the roster correctly, It’s star’s spot, Hart took Brown’s spot (meaning I think he will be cut when Brown comes back). They are sitting at 52.

[Fan in Chicago]

51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But it's now become clear that pretty much any D can handle us on O.  The Colts are NOT the defense we could barely handle in last year's playoffs.  Their DL isn't as good, their LB is playing hurt, and they're missing their starting safeties, and they killed us.

 

I think that McDermott and Daboll have a genuine difference of philosophy on how to fix the offense, and Daboll has his fingers in his ears going "Lalala not listening" or maybe "fix your own show, Mr Defense" and that's why we keep hearing about it at McD's pressers. 

 

 

 

McD should have control of his team's philosophies in all 3 facets of the game. It is inexcusable if Daboll is not listening to his boss. If thats the case, I want to see Daboll fired after the Saints game. I know it can be disruptive but given how his O has been continually neutralized, we arent going far this season with him at the O controls anyway. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

If I’m looking at the roster correctly, It’s star’s spot, Hart took Brown’s spot (meaning I think he will be cut when Brown comes back). They are sitting at 52.

 

Oh, wow - I thought we'd signed Hart to the PS but I see you're right, he's on the roster.

 

Stevenson activated to return to practice.   Am I correct that this means he has 3 weeks before the Bills either activate him to the 53 man roster or shut him down for the year?

[Patrick Duffy]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, wow - I thought we'd signed Hart to the PS but I see you're right, he's on the roster.

 

Stevenson activated to return to practice.   Am I correct that this means he has 3 weeks before the Bills either activate him to the 53 man roster or shut him down for the year?

Wonder if we see him get a shot at KR anytime soon? He has speed so curious to see if they eventually use him somewhere at some point whether it be KR or on offense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Wonder if we see him get a shot at KR anytime soon? He has speed so curious to see if they eventually use him somewhere at some point whether it be KR or on offense.

 

Depends upon whether McKenzie fumbles or muffs another punt.

[FLFan]

30 minutes ago, Process said:

Oh shut up

We all wish.  I stared to respond and then realized - it never pays to feed the troll.  He will eventually go away if he is ignored.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, wow - I thought we'd signed Hart to the PS but I see you're right, he's on the roster.

 

Stevenson activated to return to practice.   Am I correct that this means he has 3 weeks before the Bills either activate him to the 53 man roster or shut him down for the year?

 

Sorry for following my own post

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/bills-news/capaccio-stevenson-practices-for-first-time

According to Sal, this is correct

[Dablitzkrieg]

I loved the "let ya nuts hang" reference by Diggs today in his presser 🤣 twice, i mean, i guess because 2 nuts, idk

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

I agree with regards to investment.  ROI on the D line has been poor to say the least.

 

I think our offensive weapons are fine, especially with the emergence of Knox.  Oline issues are a bit of bad luck, IMO, with Dawkins (probably COVID related) and Williams regression, and Feliciano's surprise weight loss- not that he was anything special.  Brown seems to be a nice find.  Overall, I don't see any real personnel reasons for our offensive regression from last year.  And when you have an MVP caliber $250M QB, he's supposed to elevate those around him.

 

I'd like to see us go back to more of a spread attack.  Seemed to work really well last year with Josh getting rid of the ball quickly neutralizing some oline deficiencies.  Some of these quick hitters can be a substitute for an ineffective run game as well.  Long developing plays are causing more problems than they're worth. 

 

I think they've lost juice at 4 of the 5 OL positions and Beasley in the slot.    That's regression from nearly half of the personnel on offense.   Sanders has had a good year but I think they are a little less explosive there as well so the y and z haven't been drawing enough attention for the x (Diggs).  

 

To me........this year was a prime window for the heavily invested defense.    For the most part they've held up and been the more effective unit.......but when needed to step up against TN and Indy they played their worst.

 

And I hate the spread.   There are still plenty of opportunities to dink and dunk from under center and using play action.