[Edit] Jon Gruden resigns over controversial emails discovered in WFT investigation

[34-78-83]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

It’s not patently false. In fact my company will clear your entire personal phone remotely the day you quit or get fired. 
 

It is server dependent. In order to connect to your Microsoft exchange server the general agreement gives your company full access, including texts. Your company may or may not take advantage of it. But you waive your right to privacy. 

Other guy was right. While you are correct the company can wipe your phone once you are registered with your company's O365 / intune on it, they CANNOT see your text messages or other personal items not included in the O365 suite. Its not a "your company may not, mine does" thing. It's literally not possible.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

[Virgil]

How and why did this investigation start?  Had that been released?

 

 

[SydneyBillsFan]

When will people finally realise that there is no cyber toilet where you can just flush these types of electronic correspondence away?

 

 

[Wayne Cubed]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Yep, the 2 year policy is just to clean up the server for space so people dont have profiles that are 20GB of junk sitting there. It isnt to protect the user or erase evidence.

 

The emails are still archived and saved elsewhere.

 

Same goes for text messages and your cellular phone provider. There is no policy with cellular providers how long they keep your text messages on their servers.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Virgil said:

How and why did this investigation start?  Had that been released?

 

 

 

It was part of the WFT/Snyder workplace investigation. WFT turned over 650,000+ emails. These were in those.

[BillsFan4]

I strongly disagree with the things Gruden said in those emails. I think it’s disgusting and I am not sticking up for him in any way. But I’m not sure I really agree with this, since it happened while he was working for another company (ESPN). Had it happened after he was hired by the raiders, I get it. 
 

I don’t really feel bad for him, and I don’t think this is “cancel culture” (I think most of “cancel culture” is just consequences for your actions anyway) since it was his employer that fired him without any real motivation from social media outcry (that I know of).

 

I think it was more that the NFL has made such a strong stance against racism/homophobia/etc. and felt they had to act on this or their words would look hollow and I definitely don’t think they want any protests starting up again. 

 

But I guess I just wonder if there was another way this could have been handled.

Like, send him for 100 hours of sensitivity training and fine him and/or take away a draft pick or something like that. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by BillsFan4

[LeviF]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I strongly disagree with the things Gruden said in those emails. I think it’s disgusting. But I’m not sure I really agree with this, since it happened while he was working for another company (ESPN). Had it happened after he was hired by the raiders, I get it. 
 

I don’t really feel bad for him, and I don’t think this is “cancel culture” (I think most of “cancel culture” is just consequences for your actions anyway) since it was his employer that fired him without any real motivation from social media outcry (that I know of).

 

I think it was more that the NFL has made such a strong stance against racism/homophobia/etc. and felt they had to act on this or their words would look hollow and I definitely don’t think they want any protests starting up again. 

 

But I guess I just wonder if there was another way this could have been handled.

Like, send him for 100 hours of sensitivity training and fine him and/or take away a draft pick or something like that. 

 

He resigned, wasn't fired.

 

Maybe he'll go to the University of Alabama Coaching Rehabilitation Program.  Works for cases of bad playcalling, alcoholism, why not calling the most powerful figure in your profession a f*g?

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

I strongly disagree with the things Gruden said in those emails. I think it’s disgusting. But I’m not sure I really agree with this, since it happened while he was working for another company (ESPN). Had it happened after he was hired by the raiders, I get it. 
 

I don’t really feel bad for him, and I don’t think this is “cancel culture” (I think most of “cancel culture” is just consequences for your actions anyway) since it was his employer that fired him without any real motivation from social media outcry (that I know of).

 

I think it was more that the NFL has made such a strong stance against racism/homophobia/etc. and felt they had to act on this or their words would look hollow and I definitely don’t think they want any protests starting up again. 

 

But I guess I just wonder if there was another way this could have been handled.

Like, send him for 100 hours of sensitivity training and fine him and/or take away a draft pick or something like that. 

 

He didnt even get fired. He resigned because he knew he could no longer show his face in that locker room as a supposed Leader. He canceld himself twice.

[LeviF]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He didnt even get fired. He resigned because he knew he could no longer show his face in that locker room as a supposed Leader. He canceld himself twice.

 

For all of Gruden's faults he's displaying a lot more self-awareness at this point than like 99% of head football coaches ever.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, LeviF said:

 

For all of Gruden's faults he's displaying a lot more self-awareness at this point than like 99% of head football coaches ever.

 

Ha, true. I guess that is one way of looking at it. Although that must mean the bar is really low. Not giving him much credit for it tho.

[BillsFan4]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He didnt even get fired. He resigned because he knew he could no longer show his face in that locker room as a supposed Leader. He canceld himself twice.

After a talk with the owner. I guess I just assumed he “resigned” (as in, the owner forced it). I can’t imagine Gruden willingly left $60 million on the table. I heard the owner was under immense pressure from the NFL to fire him. They wanted it done before Sunday’s game.

Edited October 12, 2021 by BillsFan4
Spelling

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan4 said:

After a talk with the owner. I guess I just assumed he “resigned” (as in, the owner forced it). I can’t imagine Gruden willingly left $60 million in the table. I heard the owner was under immense pressure from the NFL to fire him. They wanted it done before Sunday’s game.

 

I'm sure he had a talk with Davis and was told "we can do this the easy way, or the hard way". He ultimately willingly left $60M on the table and saved himself the bad optics of having to fight for it in court after all this.

 

Gruden has made plenty of money. Probably already sitting on over $50M. That's enough to "fall back on" when something like this comes out.

 

It was already on the fence facing his players with the racial stuff. But the homophobic stuff when you have Nassib on the roster... unrecoverable. He had to walk away.

Edited October 12, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[muppy]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Well, he ultimately willingly left $60M on the table and saved himself the bad optics of having to fight for it in court after all this.

 

Gruden has made plenty of money. Probably already sitting on over $50M. That's enough to "fall back on" when something like this comes out.

 

It was already on the fence facing his players with the racial stuff. But the homophobic stuff when you have Nassib on the roster... unrecoverable. He had to walk away.

retirement doesn't suck. He and his millions will adjust...lol on the golf course. I pity him zero

[DasNootz]

I strongly disagree with judging someone's past actions based upon today's optics.  That said, 10 years ago if those emails saw the light of day he likely would have been canned too.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, Muppy said:

retirement doesn't suck. He and his millions will adjust...lol on the golf course. I pity him zero

 

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/09/highest-paid-espn-jon-gruden-report-monday-night-football-jon-gruden-salary

 

ESPN's highest paid employee when he was there at $6.5M/year. Plus the $20M+ from his original coaching stint. Plus the $30M+ he already made on his latest contract.

 

I think I could survive.

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/09/highest-paid-espn-jon-gruden-report-monday-night-football-jon-gruden-salary

 

ESPN's highest paid employee when he was there at $6.5M/year. Plus the $20M+ from his original coaching stint. Plus the $30M+ he already made on his latest contract.

 

I think I could survive.

I’m pretty sure Gruden will see a fair amount of the money remaining on his current contract with the Raiders.  They probably cut a deal, and agreed to pay him out through 2023 (or something like that) if he would agree to “resign”.  

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, mannc said:

I’m pretty sure Gruden will see a fair amount of the money remaining on his current contract with the Raiders.  They probably cut a deal, and agreed to pay him out through 2023 (or something like that) if he would agree to “resign”.  

 

Knowing the history of the Davis family, I'll believe that when I see it.

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

I respectfully disagree.  I am not one to persecute someone from a snip it, but I wrote in the beginning of this thread there would be apologists, and two things.  One, if he wrote the one comment, he has more behind it and shouldn’t be condoned me didn’t care if it were 10 years ago.  I’ve spent my whole life trying to avoid people or walk out of the room from my own extended family member when they make what they think are innocent jokes etc.  it’s plain and simple racism, and in my opinion stupidity.

 

Stupidity as to make generalizations about a group based on a what they think is the norm is shortsighted as there is so much variability among any group, to generalize shows you’re not that smart, and/or jaded.  I’ve taught my sons and daughter do you want to sound stupid.  They would argue as teens, and I would counter, and give examples.  Inevitably, it took a lifetime of raising someone to make sure they have in their head if I make generalizations based on a cooor, ethnicity, religion, whatever, I sound stupid.  That’s my opinion and I don’t apologize for it.

 

Second, to put anything in writing you can’t defend in a court of law makes you additionally stupid.  I work in a highly regulated community in medical device sales.  25+ years ago I had a mentor tell me to use that as the litmus test.  Anything you write personally to a friend as a joke,  always be prepared to be on the witness stand and defend it.  It stuck with me from a young age.  I knew if Gruden was so brash to write one racist remark, more would come when the FBI is investigating everything.  I didn’t want to say it the other day, but I knew more would come.  It’s the FBI.  When they start an investigation, they will do a metaphoric colonoscopy on everything.  Hence going back to my courtroom litmus test.

 

Lastly, we all have buddies who send us off color jokes which could make you laugh and even just say raucous, not necessarily prejudiced, I had to stop as a new manager over 15 years ago.  I just told my buds, please take me off this list and put it in writing, not just called them.  I wanted it in writing showing I didn’t condone it.  I then followed up with a call, and verbalized my concerns in a light way.  The whole list stopped as they were all new managers promoted and didn’t think about the ramifications of what they thought were innocent funny jokes.  That’s the world we live in and been that way for a very long time.  This isn’t something new in the last five years.  

 

Anyway, I don’t feel sorry for the guy, I think he’s a racist, sexist, homophobic idiot, who thinks he is above reproach and that pervasive attitude just bit him in the butt.  I won’t feel sorry if anyone else in the NFL has the same track record.  That’s not cancel culture, it’s not being tolerant of the good old boy culture.  There’s no place for it in corporate America nor has there been for decades.

 

If you disagree, that is you’re position.  We’ll agree to disagree.

 

 

 

Excellent post!   Back in the Stone Age when I was in junior high (I graduated from college almost 50 years ago ), the general rule was to never commit to paper what you wouldn't want your mother to read.   In the modern world with emails and social media tweets and posts stored out in the ether,  that rule is a thousand times more important.   What you put out there, even if it's "personal", never disappears even after you hit the delete button ... and the more incriminating it is, the more likely it is that somebody will save it/forward it/publish it somewhere and that at some point in the future it will come back around and bite the originator in arse.    Ask all the teenagers who have had their sexting material become public.

 

People have always been held accountable for their opinions, including opinions that were once acceptable/popular that are no longer respectable.  During the Great Depression, thousands of intellectuals and disillusioned young people joined socialist or Communist organizations.  In the 1950s, many of those older and wiser people found themselves out of their jobs and unable to get new ones. 

 

Finally, there is no excuse for bigotry.  It is hateful whether it's based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or place of origin.  Most of us struggle with aspects of it because we live in a diverse, rapidly changing world in which what decent people of our parents' generation believed/accepted/tolerated isn't what decent people of our own age believe/accept/tolerate or what decent people today want their children to believe/accept/tolerate.  Individuals frequently embrace bigotry in order to have somebody to blame for their own personal failures and insecurities.   Bigotry certainly is not a political belief although some unscrupulous politicians and political talking heads use it to further their agendas. 

[mannc]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Knowing the history of the Davis family, I'll believe that when I see it.

It will never be public, but it’s highly unlikely that Gruden just resigned without being paid a significant amount of the money that would have been due.  If the Raiders had fired him, he probably would have had a good argument that they were on the hook for the remaining six years.  And the way the team is going this year, Gruden would have been on the hot seat anyway after the season. So Davis probably ends up saving a lot of $, even though he’s paying out $10 million or so in “severance”.

Edited October 12, 2021 by mannc

[Captain Hindsight]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

It will never be public, but it’s highly unlikely that Gruden just resigned without being paid a significant amour of the money that would have been due.  If the Raiders had fired him, he probably would have had a good argument that they were on the hook for the remaining six years.  And the way the team is going this year, Gruden would have been on the hot seat anyway after the season. So Davis probably ends up saving a lot of $, even though he’s paying out $10 million or so in “severance”.

Resign or this gets much worse for you might have been conversation. I think at most he gets the rest of this season, but I doubt it. Any other profession if you resign, you done getting paid. I doubt Davis is going to bend over backward for Gruden after all this 

 

[benderbender]

Gruden hasn't changed. If there ever was a "what you see is what you get" type personality, he would be it. The more intriguing question to me is did he rub someone the wrong way about the next union contract (why else focus on comments about Demaurice Smith in particular)? Or is he just a target of opportunity in the WFT investigation and couldn't be passed up?

[YoloinOhio]

Daboll would be wise to avoid that organization IMO 

 

 

[mannc]

17 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said:

Resign or this gets much worse for you might have been conversation. I think at most he gets the rest of this season, but I doubt it. Any other profession if you resign, you done getting paid. I doubt Davis is going to bend over backward for Gruden after all this 

 

I’d have to actually see the contract, but Gruden likely had plenty of leverage.  Things would have been worse for the Raiders if he had decided to tough it out, like Urban Meyer seems to be doing. And my point is, his “resignation” was negotiated; he didn’t just walk into Davis’s office and say “I quit.”

Edited October 12, 2021 by mannc

[DrDawkinstein]

40 minutes ago, mannc said:

It will never be public, but it’s highly unlikely that Gruden just resigned without being paid a significant amount of the money that would have been due.  If the Raiders had fired him, he probably would have had a good argument that they were on the hook for the remaining six years.  And the way the team is going this year, Gruden would have been on the hot seat anyway after the season. So Davis probably ends up saving a lot of $, even though he’s paying out $10 million or so in “severance”.

 

Agree to disagree. I dont think he sees another dime going out like this. Maybe the rest of this year, but that is it.

 

[jlgarsh]

14 hours ago, Success said:

 

Maybe - we've seen it a few times that some assistant stepped in and emerged as a good or great one.

 

Bruce Arians comes to mind. Chuck Pagano lasted a few years based on Bruce’s work with the Colts

[BillsFan4]

I think it’s important to note that these weren’t just 10 year old emails. They stretch from 2011 to 2018. Some of the emails in question were from 2016 and 2018.

[nucci]

I think Gruden is an ass but how does Dan Snyder still stick around? He's much worse than Gruden

[Rico]

So if Chucky is just the tip of the iceberg, here’s my top 5 scumbags I want out of the league:

1. Jerry Jones

2. Robert Kraft

3. Dan Snyder

4. Andy Reid

5. Bill Belichick

 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Coach's contracts are fully guaranteed, so unless there is a personal conduct clause in Gruden's contract, the Raiders are on the hook, for 60M+. I seriously doubt, that Gruden just simply 'resigned'.

 

They arent guaranteed if they resign/retire. Davis now has an immediate and legal out.

 

You think that after being shamed out of the league, Gruden would then want to go through a public court battle, demanding he be paid the rest of the contract?

 

Bigoted AND Greedy?!

 

That is a really bad look. All but ensuring he would NEVER work again around the NFL in any capacity.

 

Like I said, they may pay him the rest of this year, but no way does Mark Davis (or any owner) pay 6 out of 10 years and $60M to someone who was run out of the league in disgrace.

[aristocrat]

7 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Coach's contracts are fully guaranteed, so unless there is a personal conduct clause in Gruden's contract, the Raiders are on the hook, for 60M+. I seriously doubt, that Gruden just simply 'resigned'.

Yes there is a morals clause and he likely triggered it. Gruden does not want this to go to any type of trial and have his name be in the headlines for years to come and become even more of a poster boy for this. It’s already a pr nightmare for him and trying to fight for the contract would make it worse. 

[marky]

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

I think Gruden is an ass but how does Dan Snyder still stick around? He's much worse than Gruden

It all comes down to will. Players will walk out, and open season on the ones who do stick around. They'll give you two weeks, and if you don't win with practice squad who hates you. Gruden already won a super bowl and is rich, and just didn't want that fight. It would be funny if he coaches football in Asia or Europe and turns into Ted Lasso.

 

I wish we had this same reaction to the 70 shot gunfight where everyone walked for mutual combat, the school shooter who just got bail,  the marxist bioweapon lab that ended up murdering more people than the fascists, and the drug cartel which currently enslaves more people than anyone in history. NFL and pro sports champion their issues, Lebron and China, end racism and more social justice. So yeah, they're even worse.

 

 

Just now, Rico said:

So if Chucky is just the tip of the iceberg, here’s my top 5 scumbags I want out of the league:

1. Jerry Jones

2. Robert Kraft

3. Dan Snyder

4. Andy Reid

5. Bill Belichick

 

{ }→ ∞

[DrDawkinstein]

19 minutes ago, nucci said:

I think Gruden is an ass but how does Dan Snyder still stick around? He's much worse than Gruden

 

Easy. Gruden cashes checks. Snyder signs checks. Goddell works for Snyder, and all the other owners. And the other owners arent going to push the league to go after Snyder because then they open themselves up (Jerry Jones, Irsay, looking at you)

 

 

[corta765]

23 minutes ago, nucci said:

I think Gruden is an ass but how does Dan Snyder still stick around? He's much worse than Gruden

 

This was mentioned online but basically guy receiving the checks (Gruden) vs. guy writing the checks (Snyder). I do not disagree that the NFL should try to make Snyder sell, BUT the league is an old boys club in parts also which shows with stuff like this. What I do not get with the league and Snyder is a better owner would just make more money for the league and team. It is in the NFL's and the 31 other owners best interest for Snyder to leave.

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

What would he have to lose? He is already F'd for all time, if he wants to work as a Coach, or in Broadcasting.

 

What would he have to gain? He is already sitting on $50M+

 

The cash isnt worth ruining your reputation for the rest of your life. If he goes away quietly, waits for Urban Meyer to do something else dumb, and comes back slowly and contritely, he could hang out with his buddies again.

[Pokebball]

Is Dr. Dre, Snoop, Eminem and others still performing at the Super Bowl?

 

Asking for a friend!

[mannc]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

They arent guaranteed if they resign/retire. Davis now has an immediate and legal out.

 

You think that after being shamed out of the league, Gruden would then want to go through a public court battle, demanding he be paid the rest of the contract?

 

Bigoted AND Greedy?!

 

That is a really bad look. All but ensuring he would NEVER work again around the NFL in any capacity.

 

Like I said, they may pay him the rest of this year, but no way does Mark Davis (or any owner) pay 6 out of 10 years and $60M to someone who was run out of the league in disgrace.

As I said above, it's highly unlikely that Gruden just walked into Davis's office and said "I quit."  There was undoubtedly a negotiation.  I have not seen Gruden's contract, but it's unlikely that emails Gruden sent 10 years ago as a private citizen would have given Davis a clear-cut basis to terminate him for cause. Hence, Gruden probably had significant leverage in the negotiations and probably walked away with a nice "severance package." 

[SDS]

33 minutes ago, nucci said:

I think Gruden is an ass but how does Dan Snyder still stick around? He's much worse than Gruden

that shoe has yet to drop.

[JohnNord]

11 hours ago, motorj said:

I think it'll be a no go for eminem

Not sure how the NFL can justify any of the three performers given their lyrics, themes and content…but I’m sure they will 

3 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Is Dr. Dre, Snoop, Eminem and others still performing at the Super Bowl?

 

Asking for a friend!

Yes they will

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Not sure how the NFL can justify any of the three performers given their lyrics, themes and content…but I’m sure they will 

Yes they will

 

Because they arent hired to be the face of a franchise and top leader of a team. They are there to shuck and jive for 10 minutes and provide minimal entertainment during an intermission when most people tune out.

 

Plus, Gruden was never fired. He was never canned by someone at the League. He chose to leave.

 

Isnt even close to the same thing, and the fact that some people here cant see it is scary/sad.

 

Your guys false equivalencies or whataboutisms arent nearly as smart as you think.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by DrDawkinstein