[Edit] Jon Gruden resigns over controversial emails discovered in WFT investigation

[BillsShredder83]

37 minutes ago, Rico said:

So if Chucky is just the tip of the iceberg, here’s my top 5 scumbags I want out of the league:

1. Jerry Jones

2. Robert Kraft

3. Dan Snyder

4. Andy Reid

5. Bill Belichick

 

Must be something outthere I never heard?

[mannc]

8 minutes ago, SDS said:

that shoe has yet to drop.

The NFL has fared poorly in its lawsuits against club owners.  They are going to tread very, very carefully in dealing with Snyder and the WFT organization. 

[SDS]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

The NFL has fared poorly in its lawsuits against club owners.  They are going to tread very, very carefully in dealing with Snyder and the WFT organization. 

perhaps. But enough has come out regarding that ***** show but I think the fallout is inevitable.

[nucci]

11 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Is Dr. Dre, Snoop, Eminem and others still performing at the Super Bowl?

 

Asking for a friend!

who's your friend? i'll tell 'em

[aristocrat]

10 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Is Dr. Dre, Snoop, Eminem and others still performing at the Super Bowl?

 

Asking for a friend!

dr Dre who has a long history of beating women.  Two things can be true.  Gruden is an ####### and shouldn’t be a coach. These guys should not be celebrated as artists with their history.  

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, mannc said:

The NFL has fared poorly in its lawsuits against club owners.  They are going to tread very, very carefully in dealing with Snyder and the WFT organization. 

 

I expect more of a buy-out/push-out then any major lawsuit.

 

"Look what we did to Jon Gruden with just a couple emails. Here are piles and piles of evidence showing what a scumbag you are. You can be bought out, take your BILLIONS, and leave. Or it all goes public during trial."

 

Seems pretty easy.

[Pokebball]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

who's your friend? i'll tell 'em

My wife and you're not getting anywhere near her  

[JohnNord]

15 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Because they arent hired to be the face of a franchise and top leader of a team. They are there to shuck and jive for 10 minutes and provide minimal entertainment during an intermission when most people tune out.

 

Plus, Gruden was never fired. He was never canned by someone at the League. He chose to leave.

 

Isnt even close to the same thing, and the fact that some people here cant see it is scary/sad.

 

Your guys false equivalencies or whataboutisms arent nearly as smart as you think.

 

 

I’m not defending Gruden at all.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the NFL not tolerating any more racist, sexist, or homophobic actions or language while hiring and promoting entertainers with an extensive backgrounds of using all those words plus more.  

 

 

8 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

dr Dre who has a long history of beating women.  Two things can be true.  Gruden is an ####### and shouldn’t be a coach. These guys should not be celebrated as artists with their history.  

I agree…

Edited October 12, 2021 by JohnNord

[nucci]

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

My wife and you're not getting anywhere near her  

I was going to write, not visit the house

[mannc]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I expect more of a buy-out/push-out then any major lawsuit.

 

"Look what we did to Jon Gruden with just a couple emails. Here are piles and piles of evidence showing what a scumbag you are. You can be bought out, take your BILLIONS, and leave. Or it all goes public during trial."

 

Seems pretty easy.

It's anything but easy.  I'm not sure what sort of contract (if any) governs the conduct of team owners, but I'm pretty sure a lawsuit to force Snyder to sell would be extremely risky.  Danny Boy doesn't seem like the kind of guy who will go quietly and he's likely to be around for decades to come.  

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’m not defending Gruden at all.  Just pointing out the hypocrisy of the NFL not tolerating any more racist, sexist, or homophobic actions or language but hiring and promoting entertainers with an extensive background of use all those words plus more, makes it ok.  

 

You might want to think twice before using the term “shuck and jive” which is largely offensive and considered racially offensive to many

 

 

I agree…

 

I know you werent defending Gruden. My point is that there really isnt much hypocrisy since Gruden is an NFL employee, face of the franchise, and major decision maker who wields a ton of power across the league. The other guys are just hired help to fill 10 minutes.

 

I used that term on purpose since we are discussing racial issues, and to point out how the League views the entertainers differently than Head Coaches. Good catch.

 

But noted that you are all for pushing cancel culture as far and wide as possible.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[Pokebball]

20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Because they arent hired to be the face of a franchise and top leader of a team. They are there to shuck and jive for 10 minutes and provide minimal entertainment during an intermission when most people tune out.

 

Plus, Gruden was never fired. He was never canned by someone at the League. He chose to leave.

 

Isnt even close to the same thing, and the fact that some people here cant see it is scary/sad.

 

Your guys false equivalencies or whataboutisms arent nearly as smart as you think.

 

 

You can rationalize it and some will also be able to.  Others won't be able to. Entertainers are seen and heard by millions, including children. Eminen might have the word "fagg..." more times in one of his songs than the number of emails Gruden has sent in his lifetime.

 

The inconsistency wouldn't be good optics in my opinion.  We'll have to agree to disagree.

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I know you werent defending Gruden. My point is that there really isnt much hypocrisy since Gruden is an NFL employee, face of the franchise, and major decision maker who wields a ton of power across the league. The other guys are just hired help to fill 10 minutes.

 

I used that term on purpose since we are discussing racial issues, and to point out how the League views the entertainers differently than Head Coaches. Good catch.

 

But noted that you are all for pushing cancel culture as far and wide as possible.

 

 

I think these entertainers have more influence on more people than an NFL coach has.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Pokebball

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

You can rationalize it and some will also be able to.  Others won't be able to. Entertainers are seen and heard by millions, including children. Eminen might have the word "fagg..." more times than the number of emails Gruden has sent in his lifetime.

 

The inconsistency wouldn't be good optics in my opinion.  We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Not rationalizing anything. Simply explaining how the league views it and the obvious differences over what they are ultimately responsible for.

 

You can want to cancel those guys, and everyone else, as much as you want. All good. Probably would do best taking it to twitter if you want real results.

[Pokebball]

13 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Not rationalizing anything. Simply explaining how the league views it and the obvious differences over what they are ultimately responsible for.

 

You can want to cancel those guys, and everyone else, as much as you want. All good. Probably would do best taking it to twitter if you want real results.

You see, I don't want to cancel anyone.  I don't want to rationalize selective cancellation.  Free speech is going to be offensive.  

 

What Gruden did was stupid and inappropriate.  How these entertainers live their lives and what they say in their songs is even more so stupid and inappropriate.  How the NFL can hire one and not the other is them being inconsistently selective in their management and social and cultural images they want to portray.

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Pokebball

[SoTier]

16 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Easy. Gruden cashes checks. Snyder signs checks. Goddell works for Snyder, and all the other owners. And the other owners arent going to push the league to go after Snyder because then they open themselves up (Jerry Jones, Irsay, looking at you)

 

 

 

That's a very simplistic view.  

 

These emails are part of the larger investigation of Snyder and the WFT by the FBI and DEA, which suggests a criminal investigation.  Documents related to an ongoing criminal investigation aren't going to be released until/unless the prosecutors have enough evidence to indict somebody, likely Snyder.  Gruden wasn't being investigated, so his emails were tangential and wouldn't have been protected from FOIL requests.

 

Then there's the real possibility that Snyder wasn't party to the Gruden emails since they were sent to somebody else in the Washington organization, which would have made them even more tangential.

 

[Pokebball]

38 minutes ago, SDS said:

that shoe has yet to drop.

This is the larger point in this issue.  We all have earned the right to be "cancelled".  Where do you draw the line?

 

How many of you have thought about Josh Allen's tweets heading into the draft, while reading this thread?

 

We continue to take some very dangerous positions in our attempt to cancel only some things.

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

You see, I don't want to cancel anyone.  I don't want to rationalize selective cancellation.  Free speech is going to be offensive.  

 

What Gruden did was stupid and inappropriate.  How these entertainers live their lives and what they say in their songs is even more so stupid and inappropriate.  How the NFL can hire one and not the other is them being inconsistently selective in their social and cultural images they want to portray.

 

 

So cancel the NFL?

1 minute ago, Pokebball said:

This is the larger point in this issue.  We all have earned the right to be "cancelled".  Where do you draw the line?

 

How many of you have thought about Josh Allen's tweets heading into the draft, while reading this thread?

 

We continue to take some very dangerous positions in our attempt to cancel only some things.

 

🙄 Slippery Slope Fallacy

[Pokebball]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

So cancel the NFL?

This extreme would be to cancel life, and no, no one wants to do that.  Because of this is the solution, you and I are getting cancelled too.

 

We need  some tolerance.  We need to allow people to make mistakes and grow, learn and develop from them. 

[SoTier]

4 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Jon Gruden the sacrificial lamb. 
 

so tell me why the NFL would leak emails on a coach that had nothing to do with the investigation of what they are actually looking at. Who Al’s doesn’t coach for the team they are looking at. 
 

NFL just sacrificed Gruden to keep other things quiet. This is exactly why they paid off Kaepernick and others they fear the discovery process. 

 

The NFL didn't "leak" the emails.   Two newspapers, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, reported the content of the emails.

[JoPoy88]

27 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

That's a very simplistic view.  

 

These emails are part of the larger investigation of Snyder and the WFT by the FBI and DEA, which suggests a criminal investigation.  Documents related to an ongoing criminal investigation aren't going to be released until/unless the prosecutors have enough evidence to indict somebody, likely Snyder.  Gruden wasn't being investigated, so his emails were tangential and wouldn't have been protected from FOIL requests.

 

Then there's the real possibility that Snyder wasn't party to the Gruden emails since they were sent to somebody else in the Washington organization, which would have made them even more tangential.

 

So many inaccuracies here - the investigation that uncovered these Gruden emails was an internal league probe into WFT’s workplace culture, let’s say “issues.” It has nothing to do with the federal criminal investigation into WFT’s trainer. FOIA would not apply, at all. FOIA would not work for the criminal investigation either at this point, since that investigation is still active.
 

You’re conflating things here. Read the thread you’ll get a clearer picture.

19 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The NFL didn't "leak" the emails.   Two newspapers, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, reported the content of the emails.

And how do you think the papers got them? My goodness

 

edit: it’s FOIA if you’re talking about the federal law. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by JoPoy88

[stevestojan]

Oh good. Now Feliciano is chirping about it on Twitter. 
 

in response to Schefter tweet about Gruden resignation:
 

“Is he gonna return the money like he said he would?” 

and then: 

 

“never been about the raiders. It was always about gruden. I was there. He’s a pos.”

 

 

[Pokebball]

For me, it's simple.

 

The NFL needs to decide if they're going to "woke" or not.

[DrDawkinstein]

10 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

This extreme would be to cancel life, and no, no one wants to do that.  Because of this is the solution, you and I are getting cancelled too.

 

We need  some tolerance.  We need to allow people to make mistakes and grow, learn and develop from them. 

 

Speak for yourself. I am not getting canceled. Not ever worried about it either.

 

Another paradox/fallacy to read up on! Youre really nailing them today. Paradox of Tolerance

Just now, Pokebball said:

For me, it's simple.

 

The NFL needs to decide if they're going to "woke" or not.

 

Or else what?

[Warcodered]

Syfy channel is in mourning with a Chucky marathon today.

[RichRiderBills]

9 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

So many inaccuracies here - the investigation that uncovered these Gruden emails was an internal league probe into WFT’s workplace culture, let’s say “issues.” It has nothing to do with the federal criminal investigation into WFT’s trainer. FOIL would not apply, at all. FOIL would not work for the criminal investigation either at this point, since that investigation is still active.
 

You’re conflating things here. Read the thread you’ll get a clearer picture.

And how do you think the papers got them? My goodness

 

Speaking of inaccuracies, I believe you mean FOIA?

 

 

 

[nucci]

woke, cancel culture...where do you people come up with this stuff?

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

woke, cancel culture...where do you people come up with this stuff?

 

Propaganda

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by DrDawkinstein
a letter

[MAJBobby]

18 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

The NFL didn't "leak" the emails.   Two newspapers, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, reported the content of the emails.

Leaked to them by the people that work out of 345 Park Ave, New York, NY

Edited October 12, 2021 by MAJBobby

[JoPoy88]

5 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

Speaking of inaccuracies, I believe you mean FOIA?

 

 

 

Yeah he got that wrong too. Federal is known as FOIA, the NY state law is usually abbreviated FOIL. It’s a not a big deal.

[BuffaloBud]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You mean Bruce Allen? May want to do some of your own research on Allen and what an upstanding individual he is. Or isnt.

 

Keep in mind, the NFL was investigating the disgusting office culture of the WFT which was lead by Snyder and Allen when they stumbled across these emails.

 

Gruden's emails arent even the main event.

No investigation needed.  I knew that BA was a DB.  The question still remains.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, BuffaloBud said:

No investigation needed.  I knew that BA was a DB.  The question still remains.

 

Which question?

 

BA was the one who received these emails. Of course he wasnt going to report him because he's a scumbag too. He's already been ousted tho, so not much left to do.

[JoPoy88]

35 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

You see, I don't want to cancel anyone.  I don't want to rationalize selective cancellation.  Free speech is going to be offensive.  

 

What Gruden did was stupid and inappropriate.  How these entertainers live their lives and what they say in their songs is even more so stupid and inappropriate.  How the NFL can hire one and not the other is them being inconsistently selective in their management and social and cultural images they want to portray.

 

Well, you happily omit one pretty key distinction in your little exercise in whataboutism - one party was a prominent NFL employee in a leadership role, the other parties are entertainers who work for themselves being contracted for one day of work. Pretty sure the league is on solid ground applying different standards to the two.

 

points for squeezing “free speech” into this, when it has nothing to do with free speech.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Muppy said:

retirement doesn't suck. He and his millions will adjust...lol on the golf course. I pity him zero

He can also buy some sensitivity training .. a find a kindler gentler way of communicating….

[BuffaloBud]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Which question?

 

BA was the one who received these emails. Of course he wasnt going to report him because he's a scumbag too. He's already been ousted tho, so not much left to do.

Was Bruce Allen the only one that was on these emails?

[RobbRiddick]

I am disgusted by this whole revelation. Truly disgusted. It's completely taken the attention away from the Bills win

[JoPoy88]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBud said:

Was Bruce Allen the only one that was on these emails?

No. The Times named a few other recipients- one was the founder of Hooters, another ran some bowl game in Tampa, another was an owner of a fried chicken joint.

 

edit: fun fact - the bowl game guy is Jim McVay, uncle to Sean. He makes a mil a year to put on the Outback bowl.

Edited October 12, 2021 by JoPoy88

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBud said:

Was Bruce Allen the only one that was on these emails?

 

2 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

No. The Times named a few other recipients- one was the founder of Hooters, another ran some bowl game in Tampa, another was an owner of a fried chicken joint.

 

Yes, Allen was the only one from the WFT/NFL.

[RobbRiddick]

What strikes me as funny about this whole thing is the constant line up of shows on ESPN etc, with the likes of Skip Bayless and Max Kellerman, as they sit there talking in sober, judgmental tones, acting like none of them have any negative views about women, LGBT community or anything else. 

 

Maybe none of them do, but I'd like them to take a little advice from Michael Wilbon who, for me, spoke the most sense on this subject yesterday when he said his biggest issue with Gruden (this was following the original email) was that he insisted he didn't have a racist bone in his body. Wilbon said he hates it when people say this stuff because everyone has prejudice in them to some degree, himself included.

 

Instead of everyone waving the finger of judgement and acting like their ***** doesn't stink, I'd really love it if they all had an open conversation where they admitted some of the stuff they themselves have said in the past, stuff that might have even been a joke with friends but that other people would find offensive. I know I'm living in a fantasy land here, kind of like asking a politician to be honest, but that would be much healthier and much more beneficial to everyone in the long run than being self righteous for a few days and then moving onto the next hot topic.

[muppy]

21 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

He can also buy some sensitivity training .. a find a kindler gentler way of communicating….

fat chance. Guys like he make mistakes and its like teflon deflect Deflect DEFLECT. If he actually mans up and grows I want to see Proof not just lip service

[Logic]

Between the unknown nature of whatever else the investigation into the WFT has found -- what's in the rest of these Bruce Allen e-mails? -- and the ongoing St Louis relocation lawsuit, the league potentially is about to have some very public, very ugly things to answer for. Little bit of a scary time for those in the league office.