John Brown wonders if Bills’ Josh Allen had any input on release

[Royale with Cheese]

52 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Massive conflation.  Your job ain't NFL football nor on a contract like what Brown was signed to. 

 

And I'm guessing that you didn't appeal to your co-workers to run the Regional Manager's decision by someone higher up. 

 

Be relevant in analyzing that statement as I have.

 

 

Your job at the NFL either so your opinion somehow means more?

 

Oh so it's all about the Management and not about the player?  Well John Brown's contract was for 3 years, who didn't own up to their end of the bargain.....Brown or the Bills?

 

I was also replying to your Deshaun Watson/Russell Wilson statement....they are the one who demanded the trade lol not Brown.  

 

So basically if you're an NFL player, even if the franchise is terrible and not looking like they're going to be able to fix it....you just have to stay because you signed a contract.  Contracts on both sides are always kept right?

 

Are you really suggesting I go behind the back of my reporting manager to a higher up? 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[Boxcar]

58 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Serious question - Why?

 

I mean last year as a rookie he replaced him fine.  We have another red shirted rookie - so maybe the plan is less speed and better routes.  A group with bigger bodies to fight through the type of coverage KC threw at them.

 

I think they will miss his speed, but I think they will also get younger and different production from the position. 
 

Plus the last stat I read yesterday was that Davis was the only receiver in the entire NFL over the last 8 games to have 20+ catches and average over 19 yards per catch.  He found ways to get deep even without Smoke’s blazing speed.

Because Davis showed flaws that could be exposed if he becomes more of a focal point. For one, he wasn't very QB friendly. He tends to run his route and then call it a day, which doesn't work. Two, he doesn't have Brown's breakaway speed. I love the way he can contort his body mid air and make some great catches, but I don't think he's as good as Brown and might get exposed.

 

Hope I'm wrong. I like Davis a lot, but I would have loved to see a full year of Beasley, Brown and Diggs.

[BillsVet]

14 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Your job at the NFL either so your opinion somehow means more?

 

Oh so it's all about the Management and not about the player?  Well John Brown's contract was for 3 years, who didn't own up to their end of the bargain.....Brown or the Bills?

 

I was also replying to your Deshaun Watson/Russell Wilson statement....they are the one who demanded the trade lol not Brown.  

 

So basically if you're an NFL player, even if the franchise is terrible and not looking like they're going to be able to fix it....you just have to stay because you signed a contract.  Contracts on both sides are always kept right?

 

Are you really suggesting I go behind the back of my reporting manager to a higher up? 

 

Sounds you need a Snickers bar right now. 

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Because Davis showed flaws that could be exposed if he becomes more of a focal point. For one, he wasn't very QB friendly. He tends to run his route and then call it a day, which doesn't work. Two, he doesn't have Brown's breakaway speed. I love the way he can contort his body mid air and make some great catches, but I don't think he's as good as Brown and might get exposed.

 

Hope I'm wrong. I like Davis a lot, but I would have loved to see a full year of Beasley, Brown and Diggs.

 

Could doesn't mean will.  

 

You are basically describing Davis as terrible.  QB unfriendly with no speed....sounds like he should be out of the league.

You have already labeled Davis after one season in which he had 7 TD's and 600 yards receiving.  

[Jerome007]

This one we all saw coming, so Brown's agent didn't do a good job if he didn't warn him! 

It sucks but clearly a salary cap casualty and nothing more to read into it. 2021 will be the worst year to be a FA. 2022 could be the best for players as the salary cap should JUMP UP big time.

[Matt_In_NH]

I am disappointed he is gone.....he is a pro.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

May be they don't want big money on a 3rd WR but instead use it to get a #1 TE....

That would be ideal! I’m hoping for Jared Cook.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, MrSarcasm said:

I like the dude, but one of the upsides to him being cut is that I don't have to hear 

'They call him Smoke' story every game...

 

P.S. I really miss the Nick Oleary- No gloves and Jack Nicklaus' grandson stories...

 

🙄

user name checks out 

[Buftex]

Maybe it is a case of him being a little over-sensitive, but I remember a few times this past season, feeling kind of bad for Brown because the offense was exploding, with, or without him, and because of the injuries, he sort of became a bit player... he had such a great season in 2019.  I give him some credit for helping Allen progress as much as he did.

 

No matter how much money these guys make, their egos are a big part of what help them succeed in a competitive field. I am sure it was killing him to have a limited role in this record setting offense, particularly coming off such a great year.  You could kind of see it in  that last game of the season against Miami...like he was so relieved to be getting plays...I have no doubt it was a tough year for him. Even had he been healthy the whole season, his numbers would have likely taken a dip because of the addition of Diggs.

 

I know, guys come and go all the time...and as fans we are used to it.  To be honest though, I haven't felt as bad about a Bills player getting released like this since Fred Jackson. I really wish they could have worked something out for him to stay in Buffalo.  It remains to be seen how the receiving group will take shape for next season, but it felt great, after all these years struggling to find just one decent receiver, to feel like we had so much depth, in case, you know, somebody got injured.  I feel like subtracting Brown from the group, even though they did alright without him, is a pretty big loss. 

[Royale with Cheese]

31 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Sounds you need a Snickers bar right now. 

 

I don't like Snickers.

[offyourocker]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Hopefully! And good point. Brown was set to make, what, $9-10M this year? So how much of a pay cut is he really going to take? Is he willing to go down to $1M just to stay on this team? I'm sure he can get more than that somewhere else. It's what's best for both sides whether he realizes it right now or not. Good luck to him.

I might be way off but I don’t see him getting much m0re than 5-6 mil somewhere else

[Buftex]

28 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

This one we all saw coming, so Brown's agent didn't do a good job if he didn't warn him! 

It sucks but clearly a salary cap casualty and nothing more to read into it. 2021 will be the worst year to be a FA. 2022 could be the best for players as the salary cap should JUMP UP big time.

I think he may have not have saw it coming, because they expected the Bills to try to restructure his contract.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

44 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Because Davis showed flaws that could be exposed if he becomes more of a focal point. For one, he wasn't very QB friendly. He tends to run his route and then call it a day, which doesn't work. Two, he doesn't have Brown's breakaway speed. I love the way he can contort his body mid air and make some great catches, but I don't think he's as good as Brown and might get exposed.

 

Hope I'm wrong. I like Davis a lot, but I would have loved to see a full year of Beasley, Brown and Diggs.

 

I disagree with this point.  A number of Davis more spectacular catches were secondary windows or secondary route concepts/scramble drills.  He wasn't Beasley, but Davis did a good job of being QB-friendly IMHO.

 

I don't disagree that Davis lacks a healthy Brown's breakway speed, but TBH most of this season, Brown lacked Brown's breakaway speed.  And while Davis struggled to separate and struggled with hands at times, the same could be said at times of Brown.  The hope is that Davis was a rookie who out-performed expectations and will continue to develop in his 2nd season, while the fear was that Brown would be a 31 yr old 8 year vet who isn't as likely to develop.

 

I don't know what the Bills see as their answer to take a step up at the receiving corps.  I hope they have one and that his name isn't Stills, Kumerow, or Gentry.

[colin]

5-0 without him, he said it, he knows it, he's just sore.

 

he had limitations when he was healthy, not someone who can beat aggressive man coverage, and he had a couple weak plays which essentially cost us the houston playoff game.

 

if he never got hurt, i think he continues to put up numbers and is still a bill, but he's been hurt way too much to be an asset on the team for what he's getting paid.

 

and to royal w cheese: all these nfl contracts are structured with guaranteed and up front money for players to get cut.  in some cases, it is so prohibitive that it basically can't happen, but other than that, it's in the contract and the CBA, players can get cut.

 

there are about 2000 people who can play in the NFL, with the bottom 1k being nearly totally interchangeable, and a couple hundred come into the league from college every single season and they are young and cheap.  there are 32 teams, and that's it. 

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

 

I have to disagree, Allen is younger

Also Allen is bigger and thus eats more. Better for the WNY economy. 
 

 

[mjt328]

I love John Brown, and I absolutely hate seeing him go.  

But the more you think about it, this was really a no-brainer decision for the Bills...

 

1.  Prior to Wednesday's moves, the Bills had something around $2-3 million available in salary cap space.  Even after restructuring Jerry Hughes and Mitch Morse.  That's not even room for one decent starter.

 

2.  Our upcoming free agents include starters Matt Milano, Jon Feliciano, Darryl Williams and Levi Wallace, along with key contributors like Matt Barkley, Andre Roberts, Isaiah McKenzie, Ike Boettger, Ty Nsehke and Josh Norman.

 

3.  Without making some restructures/cuts, this means the Bills had absolutely no cap room to re-sign OR replace ANY of these guys.  We fell just short of making the Super Bowl last year.  We need to get better, not worse.

 

4.  Wide receiver is easily our deepest position.  Gabe Davis was our #4 last year, and appears ready to step into the starting lineup.  This made Brown one of the most expendable starters on the roster.

 

 

Also - looking at our current cap situation - I see no way that Mario Addison makes it past the next couple weeks without either taking a pay cut or getting released.  The Bills would save around $8 million by letting him go right now.  Obviously Edge Rusher is not our best position.  My guess is that Brandon Beane wants to see how Free Agency shakes out before making a move with Addison.  But I can't see anyway it doesn't happen, unless we totally strike out on every pass rushing target in F/A.

 

[DaggersEOD]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think this happens in every industry.  I left a job 10 years ago because of our Regional Manager.  I 100% knew his plan wasn't going to work and then I left.  3 years later, all offices in that division closed.  I saw the writing on the wall.

 

I'm in manufacturing right now and mills or plants that are run by bad GM/Ops Managers have high turnover because no one wants to work for them.

Their bonuses are effected by the success of the plant.  If the plant isn't successful, that's money out of your pocket.

 

I don't think anyone should sacrifice their careers because they are reporting to bad management.   

I see the point, but in your example, those workers aren’t signing/committing to an exclusive contract with that company. These NFL players are. 
 

If they really want that input, it has to be in their contracts, negotiated and accepted by both parties. Right now they’re demanding power they have no contractual right to. 
 

Who knows, maybe there are some teams willing to offer that power, but it won’t be for free. They’d have to compromise on other aspects of their contract. 
 

They are doing it in a way where they get to

have their cake and eat it too. I think that’s why there is so much friction concerning this topic. 
 

I say, if you want it, add it to your contract. If it’s something you can’t live without, then you can’t sign a contract without that clause. If you can find a team willing to offer it, then take it. Otherwise, it’s all hot air IMO. 

[Boxcar]

38 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Could doesn't mean will.  

 

You are basically describing Davis as terrible.  QB unfriendly with no speed....sounds like he should be out of the league.

You have already labeled Davis after one season in which he had 7 TD's and 600 yards receiving.  

No, I'm not doing that, I even threw in compliments ffs. I'm pointing out legit flaws as to why he isn't a one for one replacement. You can't definitively say that Davis will improve year 2, and with the Bills where they are, it isn't really wise to go into the season with a somewhat questionable commodity.

 

Was the hyperbole necessary?

[Gugny]

53 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

Because Davis showed flaws that could be exposed if he becomes more of a focal point. For one, he wasn't very QB friendly. He tends to run his route and then call it a day, which doesn't work. Two, he doesn't have Brown's breakaway speed. I love the way he can contort his body mid air and make some great catches, but I don't think he's as good as Brown and might get exposed.

 

Hope I'm wrong. I like Davis a lot, but I would have loved to see a full year of Beasley, Brown and Diggs.

 

Wow, dude.  What do you have against Gabe Davis?  Where is all this hatred coming from??

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

No, I'm not doing that, I even threw in compliments ffs. I'm pointing out legit flaws as to why he isn't a one for one replacement. You can't definitively say that Davis will improve year 2, and with the Bills where they are, it isn't really wise to go into the season with a somewhat questionable commodity.

 

Was the hyperbole necessary?

 

I honestly wasn't trying to use hyperbole.  When I hear "QB unfriendly" and doesn't have breakaway speed, that's really bad negatives. 

 

Him and Brown are two different WR's.  I only worried about Davis's hands as he dropped a few really easy ones that cost us TD's.

 

I think he's a deep threat but not a speed deep threat.

[Boxcar]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

Wow, dude.  What do you have against Gabe Davis?  Where is all this hatred coming from??

Maybe it's his face, not sure

[Bobby Hooks]

I think they’re pretty comfortable where they are in terms of wide receivers. Especially with Gabe coming into his own. 

 

I think that even at a reduced price they would prefer to just put that money elsewhere. I have to agree with them here. I liked Brown but it was time to move on. 

 

I think they believed it was best to cut him than insult him with what they’d be willing to spend for his replacement if they’re even planning to bring one in. 

 

They still have Hodgins waiting in the wings and they seemed pretty high on him. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Bobby Hooks

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

I am going to miss Smoke. I thought he was the beginning of something special that's been building. Ideally wish 

they could all be part of bringing a Championship here. Not meant to be. 

 

We do need to get some speed on the field somewhere. Our number 4 whoever that ends up being needs to be fast..

[Boxcar]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I honestly wasn't trying to use hyperbole.  When I hear "QB unfriendly" and doesn't have breakaway speed, that's really bad negatives. 

 

Him and Brown are two different WR's.  I only worried about Davis's hands as he dropped a few really easy ones that cost us TD's.

 

I think he's a deep threat but not a speed deep threat.

1. Being QB friendly can be learned. I believe he was getting better near the end of the year, but I distinctly remember times where he ran his route and then stopped. One of those times, I think Josh even tried to throw it to him but he wasn't paying attention.

 

2. He doesn't have breakaway speed. Are you arguing otherwise? This is only a concern because he's been used as a deep threat.

 

He has tremendous body control, and I hope he takes the next step, but I really think JB is being underrated here.

[DrDawkinstein]

19 minutes ago, offyourocker said:

I might be way off but I don’t see him getting much m0re than 5-6 mil somewhere else

 

But the Bills dont want to pay their #4/5 WR even that much right now. Probably not even vet minimum at his rate. And that would be even more insulting, calling up a vet who is under contract for about $10M, and asking him to take vet minimum instead. Just cut him so he can sign on somewhere else.

 

Would have been nice to at least have a conversation with him tho, and explain that. But hey, it's a business.

[Royale with Cheese]

17 minutes ago, Boxcar said:

1. Being QB friendly can be learned. I believe he was getting better near the end of the year, but I distinctly remember times where he ran his route and then stopped. One of those times, I think Josh even tried to throw it to him but he wasn't paying attention.

 

2. He doesn't have breakaway speed. Are you arguing otherwise? This is only a concern because he's been used as a deep threat.

 

He has tremendous body control, and I hope he takes the next step, but I really think JB is being underrated here.

 

I know he doesn't have breakaway speed but that doesn't mean you can't be a deep threat.  He's not a guy that's going to run away from someone like Tyreek Hill but if you throw it up down field and he's one on one....he's pretty good.  

 

I don't know if he stopped running because it was a miss communication or something else.  We don't know who was at fault necessarily or if it was anyone's fault.

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not the one on the field trying to play through a high ankle sprain and a knee and a foot injury.

 

I don't think he was offered a pay cut or a reworked contract.

His courage was admirable. His play was not. Wasn’t implying that he was offered, was wondering if it was a consideration?

[Jobot]

John Brown is like that fantasy football player that you keep on your bench the entire season and refuse to drop... Gotta get out of that mental habit of over-valuing things just because they are yours.

[LeGOATski]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Have you ever heard a player, whether 1 hour, 1 day, or a year out from being cut ever publicly talk about whether the QB was consulted on the former being cut?  I've never heard that.  My contention remains: that NFL players are beginning to demand a say in personnel decisions, both player and executive.  Russell Wilson and Deshaun Watson won't be the last who demand trades or question the front office publicly.  It's not gonna go over well if players believe they're entitled to a seat at that table.   

 

I'm surprised you're not including Aaron Rodgers. He's arguably the biggest name who's had similar issues with his FO.

[78thealltimegreat]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

So you have gone from he wouldn’t take a pay cut , to his agent should have offered to take a pay cut before Beame cut him? is that right?

If you hear that you are the most likely player on the entire roster to be cut wouldn’t your agent say hey Brandon can we talk a bit? Wouldn’t you even do that yourself? This isn’t a Kyle Van Noy Miami deal where he signed a new contract last year and was cut without warning...That’s on Brown for not reaching out to Beane there’s only 53 guys on an active nfl roster more then enough time since the season has ended for him to reach out and if he doesn’t return your call it’s pretty obvious what’s happening 

[LeGOATski]

5 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

.... if he doesn’t return your call it’s pretty obvious what’s happening 

Maybe that's exactly the lack of communication Brown is referring to?

[Aussie Joe]

6 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

If you hear that you are the most likely player on the entire roster to be cut wouldn’t your agent say hey Brandon can we talk a bit? Wouldn’t you even do that yourself? This isn’t a Kyle Van Noy Miami deal where he signed a new contract last year and was cut without warning...That’s on Brown for not reaching out to Beane there’s only 53 guys on an active nfl roster more then enough time since the season has ended for him to reach out and if he doesn’t return your call it’s pretty obvious what’s happening 

 

You said originally he wouldnt take a pay cut . .this is another argument about what his agent should have done...

 

Here is your original comment

 

Quote

Of course Josh would want him to stay this was a salary cap issue and he wouldn’t take pay cut and got released 

 

[Mr. WEO]

4 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

“Like, I don’t know if they gave Josh Allen input on it,” said Brown.  “He should have had input.  Or, if he did have input I thought he would want me to stay.” "

 

 

 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2021/03/john-brown-wonders-if-bills-josh-allen-had-input-on-release.html?fbclid=IwAR3bCPyz0WulU5NqUy7VZRpSD6BT4jDjCcutzGCdif1nQ2WKeI2GRlv-kDg

 

 

yeah, nah.....

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Maybe that's exactly the lack of communication Brown is referring to?

But let's not forget that the agent could be a factor here.  Maybe the agent did know what is going on, and decided not to pass it on to Brown.

[BillsVet]

15 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

I'm surprised you're not including Aaron Rodgers. He's arguably the biggest name who's had similar issues with his FO.

 

3 QB's in one off-season.  Deshaun wants to have a say in the HC and GM.  Russ is mad his OLine isn't better.  Rodgers didn't like the Jordan Love pick.

 

It's not new for players to demand trades, but front office moves that need to go by the QB is a recent trend. 

 

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

I love John Brown, and I absolutely hate seeing him go.  

But the more you think about it, this was really a no-brainer decision for the Bills...

 

1.  Prior to Wednesday's moves, the Bills had something around $2-3 million available in salary cap space.  Even after restructuring Jerry Hughes and Mitch Morse.  That's not even room for one decent starter.

 

2.  Our upcoming free agents include starters Matt Milano, Jon Feliciano, Darryl Williams and Levi Wallace, along with key contributors like Matt Barkley, Andre Roberts, Isaiah McKenzie, Ike Boettger, Ty Nsehke and Josh Norman.

 

3.  Without making some restructures/cuts, this means the Bills had absolutely no cap room to re-sign OR replace ANY of these guys.  We fell just short of making the Super Bowl last year.  We need to get better, not worse.

 

4.  Wide receiver is easily our deepest position.  Gabe Davis was our #4 last year, and appears ready to step into the starting lineup.  This made Brown one of the most expendable starters on the roster.

 

 

Also - looking at our current cap situation - I see no way that Mario Addison makes it past the next couple weeks without either taking a pay cut or getting released.  The Bills would save around $8 million by letting him go right now.  Obviously Edge Rusher is not our best position.  My guess is that Brandon Beane wants to see how Free Agency shakes out before making a move with Addison.  But I can't see anyway it doesn't happen, unless we totally strike out on every pass rushing target in F/A.

 

 

Fans look way too much at last season as though it's a guarantee the next season will be better.  Lot of conventional thinking, but rosters turn over really fast in the NFL.  Players get hurt, they leave in UFA, and cap management becomes more challenging when you play well.  This is a place Bills fans haven't been since the cap was introduced in 1993.  Depending heavily on UFAs in 19-20 is a luxury they no longer have.  Only now, they're right back against the cap with the expectation is to remain competitive. 

 

2. The free agents mentioned aren't coming back if they haven't re-signed by now.  And no way is Matt Barkley a key contributor, nor Levi Wallace an above replacement grade starter. 

 

3. Buffalo needs to be more efficient with cap dollars, the result of spending big on UFA's in 2019-20, particularly at OL, DL, and WR.  They need to get younger and better production on cheaper contracts and/or a rookie contract.

 

4. Buffalo's WR group isn't solid after Diggs.  Davis had a nice season as a 3 but how, if now the Z, he plays is entirely different.  Beasley isn't young either.  I'd expect to see a Day 2 pick there.

 

The DL needs to be overhauled and younger value type players need to step up, especially Oliver and Epenesa.  They've gotta get younger and better on DL.  

 

 

[Aussie Joe]

9 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But let's not forget that the agent could be a factor here.  Maybe the agent did know what is going on, and decided not to pass it on to Brown.

 

Out of interest his agent is Ex player Dave Butz...

 

See he also acts for Stefon Gilmore so maybe his focus has been on his future trade ...and he has dropped he ball by not getting onto Beane earlier to offer a paycut or pass the news of the paycut offer through to Smoke...

 

Might not be a multi tasker...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2021 by Aussie Joe

[billsfan89]

I wish John could have stayed but the cap is what it is. But I do hope they let Josh know about this move and I hope Brown was asked to restructure and turned it down. 

[HOUSE]

It's like I tell you guys all the time, check for incoming text messages at least twice per day.  One could be valuable input.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Boxcar said:

Maybe it's his face, not sure

Dude.........

2 hours ago, Boxcar said:

Because Davis showed flaws that could be exposed if he becomes more of a focal point. For one, he wasn't very QB friendly. He tends to run his route and then call it a day, which doesn't work. Two, he doesn't have Brown's breakaway speed. I love the way he can contort his body mid air and make some great catches, but I don't think he's as good as Brown and might get exposed.

 

Hope I'm wrong. I like Davis a lot, but I would have loved to see a full year of Beasley, Brown and Diggs.

Not at $9 million

[LeGOATski]

12 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

3 QB's in one off-season.  Deshaun wants to have a say in the HC and GM.  Russ is mad his OLine isn't better.  Rodgers didn't like the Jordan Love pick.

 

It's not new for players to demand trades, but front office moves that need to go by the QB is a recent trend. 

 

 

Maybe the publicity is a recent trend, but I don't think a franchise QB's input into player decisions is anything new.

 

I think Rodgers even had some input on their coaching decision around McCarthy/Lafleur