Chris Simms Has Zach Wilson Ahead Of Trevor Lawrence?

[HardyBoy]

Will watch the video later, but Lawrence's pocket awareness concerned me a lot in the national championship game.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, costrovs said:

Chris Simms Has Zach Wilson Ahead Of Trevor Lawrence?

 

Are you asking a question or making a statement?

it’s a rhetorical question to express disbelief.

 

a lovely tool in the literary tool box. 

[mannc]

18 minutes ago, HardyBoy said:

Will watch the video later, but Lawrence's pocket awareness concerned me a lot in the national championship game.

I think he’s far from a risk-free pick.

[DCOrange]

It's draft season. I for one am thoroughly enjoying all the Wilson > Lawrence and Fields > Lawrence takes lately.

 

I saw a few people over the past few days say that they've charted all of the prospects passes and determined that Fields is the most accurate passer in the class, with one of them saying Fields is the best prospect he's scouted since at least the Andrew Luck draft if not further back than that.

Edited March 3, 2021 by DCOrange

[costrovs]

3 hours ago, H2o said:

It's question asked in more like a "wtf" manner. 

 

Ok. So you're asking everybody on this forum if Chris Simms has Zach Wilson ahead of Trevor Lawrence.

Well if you look at the link you posted, then you'd already know the answer to it.

Also, You'd want to start the sentence with "Does"

We use do/does or is/are as question words when we want to ask yes/no questions.

 

If you're letting everyone know that Chris Simms has Zach Wilson ahead of Trevor Lawrence,

then you don't need a question mark. because you're making a statement.

 

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

it’s a rhetorical question to express disbelief.

 

a lovely tool in the literary tool box.

 

Look up.

 

3 pages and 4 hours into your post, I'll go ahead and answer your "question".

Yes, it appears that Chris Simms has Zach Wilson ahead of Trevor Lawrence.

Here's a link that answers your question.

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/03/03/zach-wilson-over-trevor-lawrence-chris-simms-says-yes/

 

[Hebert19]

I agree with him 100 percent.  Lawrence will not be the pro most think. Imo

[CincyBillsFan]

Funny this topic came up.  Driving around town today and listening to the NFL station on Sirius radio the guys doing the show were BOTH saying that after studying Zack Wilson film over the last week they were willing to put him ahead of Lawrence!  I'm not ready to go there as it seems like sacrilege to question TL.  

 

But I'm seeing more of the so called "experts" saying that Wilson is a lot closer to Lawrence then people think.  It would explain why all of a sudden the Jets GM says he'll answer the phone if someone calls about acquiring Darnold.  And in the same announcement he praises Darnold through the roof.

 

If the Jets have come to the conclusion that Wilson is an outstanding, elite prospect then it makes more sense to take him in the draft then give up all those picks for Watson or try to get Darnold to work out.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

Will watch the video later, but Lawrence's pocket awareness concerned me a lot in the national championship game.

 

In the last two national championship games. 

[mannc]

11 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Funny this topic came up.  Driving around town today and listening to the NFL station on Sirius radio the guys doing the show were BOTH saying that after studying Zack Wilson film over the last week they were willing to put him ahead of Lawrence!  I'm not ready to go there as it seems like sacrilege to question TL.  

 

But I'm seeing more of the so called "experts" saying that Wilson is a lot closer to Lawrence then people think.  It would explain why all of a sudden the Jets GM says he'll answer the phone if someone calls about acquiring Darnold.  And in the same announcement he praises Darnold through the roof.

 

If the Jets have come to the conclusion that Wilson is an outstanding, elite prospect then it makes more sense to take him in the draft then give up all those picks for Watson or try to get Darnold to work out.

 

 

 

 

 

In the last two national championship games. 

Excellent point.  If the Jets and other teams view Wilson and Lawrence as 1 and 1a, or vice versa, then Jets would be much less likely to enter the D Watson sweepstakes.  

[Victory Formation]

We fall into these traps mentally where we think that cause a player is the #1 prospect he must be better than somebody taken 40th or 50th overall, but history shows, that’s clearly not the case. Surely your higher rated players will typically bear more fruit, but look at Josh, both Mayfield and Darnold were taken before him. If you like a guy that is 10-15 spots lower on McShay’s, Kiper’s or Jeremiah’s big board, take him! To hell with it! I feel this way about Carlos “Boogie” Basham Jr.... He is the 50th overall prospect on most folks big boards, I want him at 30! To hell with these arbitrary numbers and rankings, get your damn guy!

[dave mcbride]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Fields 2020 season if extrapolated over 14 games was more than okay. Fields >>> Fromm and it isn't close.

I think Fields is fool's gold. Heaving it up vs. bad Clemson DBs who were regularly beaten like a drum deep is not a sign that a qb is good. Matt Barkley is excellent at the deep air ball too as long as the receiver beats his man. Fields is inaccurate and runs a super-simplified scheme. 

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

He has come up a little small the past two end-of-season playoff games.  Hard to say.

So did Payton Manning in college. It's not always the QB's fault. In the LSU game, Clemson faced a once-in-a-lifetime offensive-talent juggernaut. And on the other side, Lawrence needed to put up 50 just to have a chance in a game against a defense in which 9-10 starters were going to end up as NFL draft picks.

Edited March 4, 2021 by dave mcbride

[Mr. WEO]

37 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I think Fields is fool's gold. Heaving it up vs. bad Clemson DBs who were regularly beaten like a drum deep is not a sign that a qb is good. Matt Barkley is excellent at the deep air ball too as long as the receiver beats his man. Fields is inaccurate and runs a super-simplified scheme. 

So did Payton Manning in college. It's not always the QB's fault. In the LSU game, Clemson faced a once-in-a-lifetime offensive-talent juggernaut. And on the other side, Lawrence needed to put up 50 just to have a chance in a game against a defense in which 9-10 starters were going to end up as NFL draft picks.

In the 2 close out games of those seasons, he threw a total of 2 TD passes (zero vs LSU, completing 49% of his passes)

Edited March 4, 2021 by Mr. WEO

[Andy1]

I hope Wilson doesn’t end up on the Jets. He looks a lot like a Mahomes type QB. 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I think Fields is fool's gold. Heaving it up vs. bad Clemson DBs who were regularly beaten like a drum deep is not a sign that a qb is good. Matt Barkley is excellent at the deep air ball too as long as the receiver beats his man. Fields is inaccurate and runs a super-simplified scheme. 

 

Indeed but he didn't only play well vs Clemson. I do agree about the super simplified scheme and that is why I think for him to succeed early he needs to be in an offense that simplifies his reads. Reading the field and processing quickly are weaknesses I feel.

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Andy1 said:

I hope Wilson doesn’t end up on the Jets. He looks a lot like a Mahomes type QB. 

I hope he doesn't end up on the Jets because I actually like him and want him to succeed. Either he will be good, and therefore make it tougher for the Bills, or (more likely) the Jets will ruin him and he will be a backup or out of the league in a few short years.

 

Both bad outcomes.

[GunnerBill]

44 minutes ago, MJS said:

I hope he doesn't end up on the Jets because I actually like him and want him to succeed. Either he will be good, and therefore make it tougher for the Bills, or (more likely) the Jets will ruin him and he will be a backup or out of the league in a few short years.

 

Both bad outcomes.

 

While I like Wilson too, I'm not convinced I love the fit with the offense the Jets are going to run. They brought Mike LaFleur in to run the Shanahan WCO off the stretch zone concept with lots of boots and roll outs. I like Wilson better in a spread the field, heavy shotgun offense where he can read the whole field and get the ball out of his hands. He is a gamer he has a bit of that gunslinger mentality in him and those guys don't tend to be great fits in that Shanny style. To me the absolute ideal fit for Wilson is Carolina with Joe Brady. I think he'd be perfect there. He won't last to #8 and the Panthers may well not own that pick anyway by draft time..... but that is the ideal fit IMO. 

 

To me, if I am running the stretch zone I prefer Fields, if I am running a spread concept offense I prefer Wilson. 

[ProcessTruster]

12 hours ago, mannc said:

That is the last thing Chris Simms is trying to do.  He's got a great record when it comes to evaluating college QBs. 

yeah, Simms is a straight shooter; doesn't really seem to be one of those to say things to just stir up views and clicks.   I've never seen Wilson play so there's that, so there will be a bias towards Lawrence bc of his exposure, but Josh had no exposure and he turned out better than all in his draft class.  

[machine gun kelly]

13 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

I love this time of year. Even though I don't watch college ball I love hearing all the talking heads giving their opinions on different guys.

 

I also love looking back on drafts a few years later, seeing how guys have changed. Before the divisional round this year I saw some clips of Josh and Baker at the combine and it was funny seeing how young they looked despite it only being a few years. 

 

It must be weird to be a college player who knows he's going in the first round, wondering where he'll go and how that might effect his career. 

 

Sorry, what was the question again?

I watch some college ball, but not to the level of acting like a prognosticator of future success.  I do agree with Simms to stop fantasizing about a chance to get Wilson or Watson.  I’m at the point of being sick of hearing about these ideas.  If it happens fine (although I still doubt it), but these franchises would be fools to let these generational QB’s go.

 

I don’t think it’s crazy Simms likes one QB over another.  I can see the Jets pulling the trigger on one of these QB’s and give up on Darnold.  I don’t see many teams giving up much draft capital for him.

[Doc Brown]

Looked up his pre draft rankings from 2018 on.  Not too shabby so far.  He went along with the consensus number one in 2019 and 2020 so I can't say he's putting Wilson in front of Lawrence just for attention.  Still continuing hope that the Jets will screw the pooch and keep Darnold.

 

2018

Lamar Jackson

Josh Allen

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Rosen

 

2019

Kyler Murray

Drew Lock

Dwayne Haskins

Ryan Finley

Jarrett Stidham

Daniel Jones

Clayton Thorson

Will Grier

 

2020

Joe Burrow

Justin Herbert

Jordan Love

Tua Tagovailoa

 

 

 

[TBBills]

Cannot look at stats when it comes to college.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Looked up his pre draft rankings from 2018 on.  Not too shabby so far.  He went along with the consensus number one in 2019 and 2020 so I can't say he's putting Wilson in front of Lawrence just for attention.  Still continuing hope that the Jets will screw the pooch and keep Darnold.

 

2018

Lamar Jackson

Josh Allen

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Rosen

 

2019

Kyler Murray

Drew Lock

Dwayne Haskins

Ryan Finley

Jarrett Stidham

Daniel Jones

Clayton Thorson

Will Grier

 

2020

Joe Burrow

Justin Herbert

Jordan Love

Tua Tagovailoa

 

 

 

 

100% Simms isn't doing it for attention. That isn't his style at all. If he says he has Wilson #1 then I completely believe he thinks that. I think Lawrence suffers a bit from "evaluation fatigue" he has been playing so well for so long in college that teams are kind of used to him. Wilson is the exciting guy who has come from nowhere this year and I do think that plays in a bit. 

[mannc]

3 hours ago, ProcessTruster said:

yeah, Simms is a straight shooter; doesn't really seem to be one of those to say things to just stir up views and clicks.   I've never seen Wilson play so there's that, so there will be a bias towards Lawrence bc of his exposure, but Josh had no exposure and he turned out better than all in his draft class.  

Think about it...how often does the first QB taken actually turn out to be the best in his draft class?  It’s rare.

[TBBills]

I guess we shall see 🙂

[DCOrange]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Looked up his pre draft rankings from 2018 on.  Not too shabby so far.  He went along with the consensus number one in 2019 and 2020 so I can't say he's putting Wilson in front of Lawrence just for attention.  Still continuing hope that the Jets will screw the pooch and keep Darnold.

 

2018

Lamar Jackson

Josh Allen

Baker Mayfield

Sam Darnold

Josh Rosen

 

2019

Kyler Murray

Drew Lock

Dwayne Haskins

Ryan Finley

Jarrett Stidham

Daniel Jones

Clayton Thorson

Will Grier

 

2020

Joe Burrow

Justin Herbert

Jordan Love

Tua Tagovailoa

 

 

 

Chris Simms actually ended up ranking the 2018 class as follows:

1. Josh Allen
2. Josh Rosen
3. Baker Mayfield
4. Lamar Jackson
5. Sam Darnold

The clip of him ranking Lamar and Allen at the top was an older take before he changed it all at the last minute.

[machine gun kelly]

Someone brought up earlier about retro grading teams drafts.  I love that series on NFLR, as it’s usually a Blitz (the show) topic where they grade the draft from four years ago.  They rate on an A,B,C,D etc. draft.  It’s a very interesting series, and the primary guy was Mark Dominic, the old GM from Tampa.  He’s a very interesting guy with Bruce, the main host.

 

Needless to say our drafts prior to McBeane on a four years later have not been the best, but they were fair.  They consider, who’s still on the NFL whether starting or a role player, regardless if they are still on the team that drafted the player.  It’s part of their off season series each show does to basically fill down time.  You may not always agree with the hosts, but they make several good points trying to quantify a draft.  This year should be fun as it’s the 2017 draft, but I know I think it’s Late Hits does something like this, but would be the 2018 draft.

 

Its interesting to see, because for example we don’t still have Wyatt Teller, but he starts for the Browns and was a 2018 draft guy.  To me that’s fair given they are a national show, not biased by a local market like WGR.

 

Anyway, you Sirius guys have a listen when they do it.  If memory serves, it’s usually done after the draft.  By then FA is over, the draft is over, coaching hires are over, and even the UDFA market is over.  They can then focus on this kind of topic.

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Lawrence is the best QB in the class.

 

 

Come on, Bill.

 

That's an opinion, too. A less controversial one than his, certainly. Could easily turn out to be absolutely correct down the line. But it's not a fact.

 

We'll find out who the best QB in the class is a few years down the line. Right now we can't even agree on who was the best college QB.

 

I have great respect for your opinions, but that is what this is.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Come on, Bill.

 

That's an opinion, too. A less controversial one than his, certainly. Could easily turn out to be absolutely correct down the line. But it's not a fact.

 

We'll find out who the best QB in the class is a few years down the line. Right now we can't even agree on who was the best college QB.

 

 

 

Of course it's an opinion. What suggested it wasn't?

[Orlando Tim]

I watched both QBs twice this year and I was more impressed with Zach during those two games, but I would not be surprised if these are the two gems of this draft and they are both pro bowlers for years to come.

[Doc]

Time will tell.

[Thurman#1]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course it's an opinion. What suggested it wasn't?

 

 

Your words.

 

"_________ is ___________," is not grammatically how you present an opinion. It's how you present a fact or something you believe is a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

"I've got _______________ as _____________."

 

or

 

"_______________ looks like ________________."

 

or

 

"I believe __________ is _____________."

 

or

 

"Doesn't seem that way to me."

 

 

 

 

Those, and a thousand alternatives and a million variations are ways to present an opinion. You know all this. You find Simms using this kind of language constantly.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Your words.

 

"_________ is ___________," is not grammatically how you present an opinion. It's how you present a fact or something you believe is a fact.

 

 

 

 

 

"I've got _______________ as _____________."

 

or

 

"_______________ looks like ________________."

 

or

 

"I believe __________ is _____________."

 

or

 

"Doesn't seem that way to me."

 

 

 

 

Those, and a thousand alternatives and a million variations are ways to present an opinion. You know all this. You find Simms using this kind of language constantly.

 

 

I disagree actually. I think when I post something on a message board it should be pretty implicit that it is my opinion. I don't think I should have to say "I believe" before everything I say to distinguish it as opinion. It is self evidently opinion to say player X is better than player Y etc. 

 

Indeed, on the contrary... on a message board such as this I think you should make it explicit when what you are doing is giving factual information. Like when I say "I know, for a fact, that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson in 2015 and was overruled." I don't do that very often. I occasionally will clarify things relating to the CBA or the salary cap where people aren't aware of specific regulations etc, but everything else I post is generally opinion. Whether it says "in my opinion" or "I believe" in that sentence or not. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by GunnerBill

[LeviF]

He's about to be on the Dan Patrick show to explain himself.

[mannc]

57 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

He's about to be on the Dan Patrick show to explain himself.

Simms explained himself fully on his podcast.  He convinced me, even though I haven’t seen much of Wilson.  By the way, he also loves Mack Jones, and ranks him just a shade behind Lawrence and Wilson.

[njbuff]

What's most important is that Wilson is a MUCH BETTER prospect than Sam Darnold was.

 

That's good for the Jets and not so good for the Bills as they might have a divisional rivalry a few years down the road with Wilson leading the Jets.

 

But here is to hoping that Wilson is a Jets bust too. 😁

[H2o]

1 hour ago, njbuff said:

What's most important is that Wilson is a MUCH BETTER prospect than Sam Darnold was.

 

That's good for the Jets and not so good for the Bills as they might have a divisional rivalry a few years down the road with Wilson leading the Jets.

 

But here is to hoping that Wilson is a Jets bust too. 😁

Yes, but are the Jets going to take a QB is the question. They could instead think that Darnold was just a product of Gase the last two years and look to add weapons in the draft. It's going to be interesting to see how the first 3 picks play out. You know Jax is taking a QB, but both NY and Miami could justify taking one. I think Miami is less likely because they just drafted Tua, but you never know. Then you have Atlanta who obviously are looking towards their future, Carolina in need, San Fran I'm sure wants to upgrade, NE is in limbo, then you have Chicago, and Washington. It will be fun to watch the mad scramble and see how it all plays out. 

[TailgateChef]

22 hours ago, Brennan Huff said:

Trevor Lawrence is going to be a bust. I’m prepared for the hate...

Mark me down for this as well.

[GunnerBill]

36 minutes ago, H2o said:

Yes, but are the Jets going to take a QB is the question. They could instead think that Darnold was just a product of Gase the last two years and look to add weapons in the draft. It's going to be interesting to see how the first 3 picks play out. You know Jax is taking a QB, but both NY and Miami could justify taking one. I think Miami is less likely because they just drafted Tua, but you never know. Then you have Atlanta who obviously are looking towards their future, Carolina in need, San Fran I'm sure wants to upgrade, NE is in limbo, then you have Chicago, and Washington. It will be fun to watch the mad scramble and see how it all plays out. 

 

Jets are taking a QB. Book it.

[Buffalo716]

In 100 years of college football Trevor Lawrence had the best true freshman campaign by a quarterback ever

 

It's kind of hard to wow anybody after that

 

Then For the next few years everybody is looking for every single fault to knock him down a peg.. he would have been the first overall pick after his freshman year

 

 

[LeviF]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

In 100 years of college football Trevor Lawrence had the best true freshman campaign by a quarterback ever

 

It's kind of hard to wow anybody after that

 

Then For the next few years everybody is looking for every single fault to knock him down a peg.. he would have been the first overall pick after his freshman year

 

 

 

Yeah and that was with some need for growth.  He's gotten better and in my mind there's zero question about his position as a prospect.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, LeviF91 said:

 

Yeah and that was with some need for growth.  He's gotten better and in my mind there's zero question about his position as a prospect.

Yea barring injury or something catastrophic he's as clean as they come

 

His upper body mechanics, release, arm strength, football IQ, athleticism, are all off the charts

 

I was lucky enough to see him in high school and he was better than some NFL quarterbacks, not kidding

 

Like he was making throws that some guys in the NFL can't make today

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree actually. I think when I post something on a message board it should be pretty implicit that it is my opinion. I don't think I should have to say "I believe" before everything I say to distinguish it as opinion. It is self evidently opinion to say player X is better than player Y etc. 

 

Indeed, on the contrary... on a message board such as this I think you should make it explicit when what you are doing is giving factual information. Like when I say "I know, for a fact, that Doug Whaley wanted to hire Hue Jackson in 2015 and was overruled." I don't do that very often. I occasionally will clarify things relating to the CBA or the salary cap where people aren't aware of specific regulations etc, but everything else I post is generally opinion. Whether it says "in my opinion" or "I believe" in that sentence or not. 

 

 

Fair enough that you disagree. You're claiming the freedom to communicate unclearly, and nobody can take that away from you. To communicate clearly and well should - I personally believe - be the goal in any public communication. Message board or not. If someone wants to be understood correctly, he should speak clearly. But some people have other priorities, and that's their prerogative.

 

And no, you don't have to say "I believe" or "in my opinion" before every opinion, to be clear. I pointed out four easy alternatives and there are surely hundreds if not tens of thousands of ways to point out you're expressing an opinion. But if you don't mind being misunderstood easily and often, who am I to challenge your priorities? Hell, I'm just a guy on the internet.

 

On the other hand, I have the right to say something along the lines of "What you have there is an opinion, it is certainly not a fact," if you state an opinion as a fact. I'm not a mind-reader, just a text-reader. Even if your intention is to give your opinion, if I can't understand that from the writing, I'm gonna react to what you wrote, just as I do for everyone. I just do my best to understand the words on the page or the screen, myself. I think that's what most people do, they assume what someone wrote is what they meant. I don't think of myself as bright enough to elicit unexpressed meaning from text.

 

Worth pointing out, though, that Simms spends a great deal of time and care pointing out that what he says is opinion.

 

01:30  "Zach Wilson is clearly the number one quarterback in the draft for me."

 

04:00  "To me, he is the clear-cut number one quarterback in this draft. I love Trevor Lawrence, there's a lot I like. But I think Zack Wilson and him, there's a separation there, for my money and what I see and what I've evaluated."

 

He even prefaces the whole thing with a similar statement, "What I'm evaluating here is what I see on the field. Yeah, I hear rumors and all that kind of stuff, OK? But all I can do is see what I see on the field and use my knowledge that way, and that's really what my rankings are all about."

 

That was only the first four minutes. He goes on like that constantly, in pretty much every podcast. Why? I think it's because through long experience he's found out that, people misunderstand him. They hear it as, "I know this, 'cause I'm just that smart." He's been faced with that misunderstanding often enough that he knows if he wants to be correctly understood he's got to say this.