The colts fumble that was not called

[Dukestreetking]

3 hours ago, Best Williams Available said:

I mean the fact that decently informed NFL fans don’t know the procedure is a problem for the league.

Very insightful...reminds me of the ever evolving catch rule, or when they changed OT. For some reason, it took me a while to figure out (of course I'm a dumb a**, so there's that).

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, White Linen said:

 

He couldn't challenge. 

But!  He had to call TO so the League could get it's poo together.  The League was gonna turn a blind eye and let Colts run a play! Unbelievable! 

Hand of Providence that McD had the wherewithal to call TO in the nick of time!

[BuffaloRebound]

2 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

But!  He had to call TO so the League could get it's poo together.  The League was gonna turn a blind eye and let Colts run a play! Unbelievable! 

Hand of Providence that McD had the wherewithal to call TO in the nick of time!

In defense of the Booth, Indy was out of timeouts and stopping the clock without being sure that it was a close play would’ve helped Indy.  

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

In defense of the Booth, Indy was out of timeouts and stopping the clock without being sure that it was a close play would’ve helped Indy.  

So.  That's their problem. 

It was a close play.  

[Dukestreetking]

2 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Would 80,000 fans have driven them to make the right call?

Yet another good point in this thread.

 

I recall interesting MLB study (few yrs ago?) that demonstrated statistically significant bias by umpires in favor of home team.

 

Focus was ball/strikes, and seem to remember it was in the 5 percent range, but don't quote me.

 

Theoretical explanation was basic human psychology: at the margins, the umps would rather not get booed. 

 

Same dynamic in NFL on field calls? Who knows? Mongo only pawn in game of life.

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 minute ago, Dukestreetking said:

Yet another good point in this thread.

 

I recall interesting MLB study (few yrs ago?) that demonstrated statistically significant bias by umpires in favor of home team.

 

Focus was ball/strikes, and seem to remember it was in the 5 percent range, but don't quote me.

 

Theoretical explanation was basic human psychology: at the margins, the umps would rather not get booed. 

 

Same dynamic in NFL on field calls? Who knows? Mongo only pawn in game of life.

They got the "Immaculate Reception" in 1970s wrong because the refs had to leave Pittsburgh.

[4merper4mer]

1 minute ago, Dukestreetking said:

Yet another good point in this thread.

 

I recall interesting MLB study (few yrs ago?) that demonstrated statistically significant bias by umpires in favor of home team.

 

Focus was ball/strikes, and seem to remember it was in the 5 percent range, but don't quote me.

 

Theoretical explanation was basic human psychology: at the margins, the umps would rather not get booed. 

 

Same dynamic in NFL on field calls? Who knows? Mongo only pawn in game of life.

There was a book about stuff like that.  I forgot the name.  Also went into how getting a called strike two is easier than a called strike three.  It’s not universal though.  That poor pitcher from Detroit got robbed of out #27 in a perfect game at home.  That was a bad one.

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

So.  That's their problem. 

 
just saying.  It’s not as simple as saying they should’ve immediately went to replay.  Indy got to the line quick because clock was running and they had no timeouts.  Indy would’ve had at least 10 more seconds on clock if they blew the whistle earlier and went to replay.  Ref still would’ve upheld play and Indy would’ve had 10 more seconds to work with.  Booth has to wait to see something definitive enough to stop the clock in that situation.  

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

 
just saying.  It’s not as simple as saying they should’ve immediately went to replay.  Indy got to the line quick because clock was running and they had no timeouts.  Indy would’ve had at least 10 more seconds on clock if they blew the whistle earlier and went to replay.  Ref still would’ve upheld play and Indy would’ve had 10 more seconds to work with.  Booth has to wait to see something definitive enough to stop the clock in that situation.  

Okay... Fair enough.  But Poyer clearly didn't touch Pascal when Pascal's knee was down.

Edited January 10, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[Profootballdisc]

No, that was yet another mistake by the officiating crew. The replay review failed to realize that they should have reviewed the ruling on the field. When McDermott called a TO (hoping they would realize that the play should be reviewed), they did in fact decide to review the play, but only after McDermott called a TO. Had they decided to review the play prior to McDermott’s TO, replay review would have buzzed the referee and informed him that they were reviewing the play, and Buffalo’s TO wouldn’t have been taken and announced on the field.  
 

Bottom line, they made 4 mistakes on 1 play;

1.) The refs on the field failed to see that Pascal had gotten up before he was touched and then attempted to advance the ball before fumbling, so they ruled him down by contact.

2.) The replay review failed to realize that the call on the field should have been reviewed, forcing McDermott to call a TO before Rivers hurriedly snapped the ball.

3.) They failed to overturn the ruling on the field when all visual evidence clearly shows that; Pascal got up before he was touched and attempted to advance the ball, the ball was fumbled before he was tackled again, the ball came out prior to him being down, and the Bills clearly recovered the fumble.

4.) The explanation by the referee that the Bills wouldn’t be charged a TO because the replay review initiated the TO was incorrect. Replay review clearly wasn’t initiated prior to the TO or that same ref who gave the explanation on field would have been made aware and not stated that Buffalo had called a TO. Since coaches cannot challenge a ruling within the final 2 minutes, that time out shouldn’t have been returned to Buffalo. The fact that the officiating crew made the mistake which led to the TO being called is irrelevant. Nothing about that ruling was correct. Nothing. They got the initial ruling on the field wrong, they failed to review it prior to the TO, they ruled not to overturn the call when clear and obvious visual evidence showed that the ball was fumbled and recovered by Buffalo, and they returned the TO to Buffalo when they shouldn’t have. They are just lucky that their bad officiating didn’t ultimately cost Buffalo the game, but it could have. 

[Dukestreetking]

Warning to all:

 

My TBD board configuration just went kaflooe (sp?) for several minutes. Seriously, it did.

 

So...

 

The Badge must be watching us man! Wants to shut this discussion down, and he owns the night.

 

#resistance

[Simon]

I remember reading another one where jersey color was a factor in called penalties.

Darker jerseys drew penalties at a higher percentage than they could explain away with other factors.

The human mind is weird-assed attic

[White Linen]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

But!  He had to call TO so the League could get it's poo together.  The League was gonna turn a blind eye and let Colts run a play! Unbelievable! 

Hand of Providence that McD had the wherewithal to call TO in the nick of time!

 

Yes sir, we agree completely on what happened. 

 

Simon said that's not what happened.   That the refs were waiting until the last second and McD calling TO had nothing to do with it and his evidence is because we weren't charged one.  Wrong!

[The Red King]

Am I mistaken, or did the league do the same to Tampa earlier?  Close play, looked like a fumble, was near the end of the first half, under two minutes.  Looked like the booth wasn't going to review it so Tampa burned a time-out to force the issue.  And after the review, call on the field stood.

 

Tampa won, as did we, but the NFL should realize they dodged a bullet twice and really take a look at it's officials and replay system.

[Rochesterfan]

43 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

Yes sir, we agree completely on what happened. 

 

Simon said that's not what happened.   That the refs were waiting until the last second and McD calling TO had nothing to do with it and his evidence is because we weren't charged one.  Wrong!

 

Do you have any proof of this?

 

The facts are - the replay booth on these types of plays with a running clock do not buzz down until immediately at the snap to prevent giving the offense a time advantage.  Several of these plays happen where the ball is snapped and the ref blows the whistle stating he got the notification.

 

2nd - McD not being sure if they got the buzz used his available time out just before the ball was snapped and the referee clearly stated that he was buzzed at the same time and therefore the Bills were not charged a time out.

 

3rd - several hours later in the TB game - TB calls a time out right before the half to get the Refs to look at a fumble.  He called it before the replay team buzzed down and therefore TB stopped the running clock.  They decided to review the play and determined it was not a fumble and TB still lost the timeout because they stopped the clock.  The announcers clearly stated if after the review - it was determined to be a fumble - TB would have gotten their timeout back, but because they called the timeout before the review was initiated with a running clock - if it was upheld TB lost the timeout.

 

 If you view that in the context of the Bills game - if McD called the timeout with a running clock like TB and it was not simultaneous to the ref getting buzzed - Buffalo would have been charged with the timeout just like TB, but the ref clearly states Buffalo was not charged the timeout because the replay team buzzed in at the same time.

 

Therefore based upon the available facts @Simon is 100% correct.  We have no way to know the exact moment the replay team buzzes in, but usually the offense snaps the ball and begins the play and the ref blows it dead when the clock is moving to ensure the offense does not gain a time advantage.

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Rochesterfan]

38 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Am I mistaken, or did the league do the same to Tampa earlier?  Close play, looked like a fumble, was near the end of the first half, under two minutes.  Looked like the booth wasn't going to review it so Tampa burned a time-out to force the issue.  And after the review, call on the field stood.

 

Tampa won, as did we, but the NFL should realize they dodged a bullet twice and really take a look at it's officials and replay system.

 

Exactly - the difference was TB did not get their timeout back because they stopped the clock well before the next snap on a running clock and therefore well before the replay team buzzed in to the ref and therefore the timeout stood.

 

The Bills got their timeout back which suggests that it was simultaneous to the replay buzz.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Billsatlastin2018]

I saw a replay tonight, via You Tube/ CBS. That one absolutely showed Poyer waiting for the Receiver to elevate before whacking the ball out!

 

How does the review peeps screw that up?

[Rubes]

So glad we won this game. That horrendous call would have haunted me.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

How did McD get the TO back after losing challenge.  Was there no challenge @ all.

 

If McD doesn't call it, the next play stands! Criminal!

It wasn't a challenge. It was under two minutes.  Somehow the refs decided that they were reviewing the play and that the Bills TO did not need to be called though I don't think that is how it would have played out if McD did not call the TO. The Colts were snapping the ball just as McD was calling TO.  We will never really know if they would have stopped play on their own.

41 minutes ago, Billsatlastin2018 said:

I saw a replay tonight, via You Tube/ CBS. That one absolutely showed Poyer waiting for the Receiver to elevate before whacking the ball out!

 

How does the review peeps screw that up?

No idea because even the TV broadcast was clear Poyer had not touched him yet.  

[BillsfaninSB]

Like the ending in AZ, so glad this play did not come back to haunt us.  No one will care in a day or two. 

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

This is weirdly aggressive. It's certainly possible that the refs/league made a mistake there with not initiating a review and then tried to save face. A lot of people have said that.

Remember how quick they reviewed back to back sideline catches we had?

[GETTOTHE50]

Idk what’s worse, this call or the kroft int against the rams 

[Kenosha2Buffalo]

This year is special fellow mafia. We get past these type of blunders. I'm 30, this has never been the case. This was that bad luck tough loss we didn't lose. 

[sherpa]

I was thinking it would be just our luck if they ruled him down and then flagged Milano for a late hit on the play because, you know, he was "down" and all. 

[Doc Brown]

4 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

Exactly - the difference was TB did not get their timeout back because they stopped the clock well before the next snap on a running clock and therefore well before the replay team buzzed in to the ref and therefore the timeout stood.

 

The Bills got their timeout back which suggests that it was simultaneous to the replay buzz.

At least that's what the NFL wants you to believe.  That next play was going to happen if McDermott doesn't call a timeout.  It should've immediately been reviewed from above and somebody from the NFL screwed up. 

 

I HATE conspiracy theorists but the most likely reason why that was ruled not a fumble is because the NFL wanted to save face and not have McD's timeout be the reason it was overturned.

[machine gun kelly]

12 hours ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

Let me tell you Sean should give himself a game ball for that timeout after that play was just brilliant. 

I was thinking the exact same thing.  His use of timeouts and game management has been under appreciated by McD this year.  Enough has been said about the fumble.  I understand the difficulties of the refs on the field and the speed of the game, it could have been missed, but the review was blatant.  How can nay referee say there wasn’t irrefutable evidence.  We saw it on TV.  They have every angle the viewing audience has in their homes.

[jethro_tull]

10 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Can you imagine this message board if the Colts had gone on to win after that blown call? Yikes!

It would have been another heart break for the ages.  Those are the old Bills now.  Time to move forward.  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

6 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Remember how quick they reviewed back to back sideline catches we had?

This is an excellent point relative to the atrocious review of the fumble.  The Bills have two amazing plays to keep a very important drive alive in a playoff game.  In both cases, the officials on the field correctly rule the play a completed pass.  There most certainly must be a sense of “wtf” on the part of the Colts d, certainly is a sense of excitement and momentum for Buffalo and Indy is on its heels but cannot challenge.   
 

So...naturally it makes sense for league officials hundreds of mikes away to pause the game, twice,  take several minutes, allow the Colts to take a breath, twice, and regroup because maybe the guys on the field missed it, or perhaps the could see something to change the dynamic of the game.  
 

It’s maddening, just as we’re asked to believe that a slow motion replay on a high def camera didn’t reveal the exact moment when the hand made contact with the player. 
 

 

[billsfan1959]

Just to set aside any idea that he was touched while he was down...

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

At least that's what the NFL wants you to believe.  That next play was going to happen if McDermott doesn't call a timeout.  It should've immediately been reviewed from above and somebody from the NFL screwed up. 

 

I HATE conspiracy theorists but the most likely reason why that was ruled not a fumble is because the NFL wanted to save face and not have McD's timeout be the reason it was overturned.

 

Doc - with a running clock they never immediately review a play like that.  The referees must wait until the ball is about to be snapped.  
 

Let’s think of this another way - if right at the conclusion of the fumble they decide to review with 34 seconds left rather than right at the Colts snap of the ball - it essentially would have given the Colts another free play in the game based upon the ruling.

 

Look McD was very smart to call the timeout just to ensure because in the current system there is no way for him to be sure they are going to review, but there is also absolutely no proof that the Ref was not buzzed at the snap.  
 

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy- especially when the most logical and typical response mirrors what happened and mirrors the stated outcome.  The NFL ended up not needing to “save face” on that play any more than the should of been fumble in TB yet the difference in timeouts was obvious - so there must be a reason why Buffalo got their timeout back and TB didn’t.  It certainly does not scream to me that the NFL favors the Bills and therefore wanted to return the timeout versus Tom Brady’s team net getting their timeout back.

 

The most logical explanation is the timing of the timeouts versus the timing of the replay buzz and that was the explanation given in both cases.

 

The current NFL replay system stinks because of these reasons with a running clock - it is never fair to either team when the running clock gets stopped - so they try to do it is fairly as possible, but it leads to things like exactly what happened - a needless timeout and a potential play by Indy that gets stopped mid play because of review, but if they stop it earlier it gives free time to Indy to reset and get an extra play.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[YoloinOhio]

11 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

How did McD get the TO back after losing challenge.  Was there no challenge @ all.

 

If McD doesn't call it, the next play stands! Criminal!

There was no challenge. No challenges allowed in the last 2 minutes. So he called TO because Phil ran up to the line to run a play before they could review it. The TO ensured a review would actually take place. 

[Rochesterfan]

19 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

This is an excellent point relative to the atrocious review of the fumble.  The Bills have two amazing plays to keep a very important drive alive in a playoff game.  In both cases, the officials on the field correctly rule the play a completed pass.  There most certainly must be a sense of “wtf” on the part of the Colts d, certainly is a sense of excitement and momentum for Buffalo and Indy is on its heels but cannot challenge.   
 

So...naturally it makes sense for league officials hundreds of mikes away to pause the game, twice,  take several minutes, allow the Colts to take a breath, twice, and regroup because maybe the guys on the field missed it, or perhaps the could see something to change the dynamic of the game.  
 

It’s maddening, just as we’re asked to believe that a slow motion replay on a high def camera didn’t reveal the exact moment when the hand made contact with the player. 
 

 

 

Again - not to give any life to our ability to be pissed off about things, but in both cases of Davis sideline catches - his going out of bounds stops the game clock and therefore the review comes almost immediately.  There is no reason to wait because the clock is not moving.

 

In the case of the Indy fumble - the clock is moving so the job of the replay team is not to stop it until the snap to ensure it gets stopped at the last possible point before the play to ensure they do not give the offense more time - in this case it appears to have been about 5-6 seconds of game time.

 

Now how they get the call wrong is beyond me, but the timing makes sense based upon the clock.  It is similar to the TB/WFT fumble that they get wrong and could not overturn.

[SoCal Deek]

I’ll say it again. What was the call on the field? They never told us! Was he ruled down by contact? Was it ruled he gave himself up? Was it ruled that he didn’t actually fumble? Does ANYONE know? The ref never said.

[ExiledInIllinois]

14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

There was no challenge. No challenges allowed in the last 2 minutes. So he called TO because Phil ran up to the line to run a play before they could review it. The TO ensured a review would actually take place. 

And what happens if the

review never took place, play was run.

 

Do you trust the NFL to do the right thing and nullify the play?

 

I get it, they don't want to give the O a time advantage and the League wants to stop clock at last second if they need more time reviewing... 😆 They probably weren't even reviewing it anyway. The League wasn't stopping, they said they were but they were lying.  McD called their bluff.  They had to cover their butt.

 

...But, they didn't even get the review right. Even in my primitive screenshots it's clear Poyer didn't touch Pascal until Pascal's right knee was up.

 

The NFL simply does the wrong thing, game after game.  Then, they cover their tracks. /sad

Edited January 10, 2021 by ExiledInIllinois

[Doc]

I can buy that they might have intended to review the play, waited until the Colts were about to snap the ball and that the call came down simultaneously with McD's TO (and I'm glad he had the sense to call it).  The only thing I'm pissed about is the obvious fumble not being called one.  That was inexcusable and could have changed the outcome.  Thankfully the Bills TCB.  I'm also mystified how the ref earlier in the game could have ever claimed that Hilton caught that ball? 

[Kaenon]

I would like the NFL to come out with a statement today and just say they got the call wrong - sorry.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

29 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Again - not to give any life to our ability to be pissed off about things, but in both cases of Davis sideline catches - his going out of bounds stops the game clock and therefore the review comes almost immediately.  There is no reason to wait because the clock is not moving.

 

In the case of the Indy fumble - the clock is moving so the job of the replay team is not to stop it until the snap to ensure it gets stopped at the last possible point before the play to ensure they do not give the offense more time - in this case it appears to have been about 5-6 seconds of game time.

 

Now how they get the call wrong is beyond me, but the timing makes sense based upon the clock.  It is similar to the TB/WFT fumble that they get wrong and could not overturn.

But that doesn’t change the fact that the flow of the game is impacted by calls made correctly on the field.  It allows the d to reset and slows the game down. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The only thing I can think of as to why it was ruled down, the shin. The knee is definitely off the ground, but hiw much of the shin is still on the ground nd how much of a shin is needed to = down

 

But then I think why wouldn't the NFL just explain this in the tweet rather than say the call stood

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The only thing I can think of as to why it was ruled down, the shin. The knee is definitely off the ground, but hiw much of the shin is still on the ground nd how much of a shin is needed to = down

 

But then I think why wouldn't the NFL just explain this in the tweet rather than say the call stood

I thought only the knee.  If the knee is up, he's not down. 

 

FWIW, ESPN.com addresses it here:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656411/questionable-nfl-playoff-officiating-decisions-happened-which-were-right

[Cheektowaga Chad]

3 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

I thought only the knee.  If the knee is up, he's not down. 

 

FWIW, ESPN.com addresses it here:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656411/questionable-nfl-playoff-officiating-decisions-happened-which-were-right

Earlier this season there was a 2 or 3 week stretch where guys were being ruled down or in bounds because of the shin - ill try to find the games