OldTimeAFLGuy Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 17 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Isn't it like 15mil for D Tackles? I'd pass unless a tag and trade was worked out 2020 Projected Franchise and Transition Tenders Position Franchise Tag Transition Tag QB $26,895,000 $24,373,000 DE $19,316,000 $16,338,000 WR $18,491,000 $15,926,000 CB $16,471,000 $14,570,000 LB $16,266,000 $14,080,000 OL $16,102,000 $14,666,000 DT $15,500,000 $12,321,000 S $12,735,000 $10,801,000 RB $12,474,000 $10,189,000 TE $11,076,000 $9,267,000 ST $5,297,000 $4,884,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 No punters and place kickers or have they combined that into ST now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloMatt Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) I heard that AB is now requesting that the Bills sign him AND that he will take the veteran minimum. see link to down news period in NFL. Edited February 13, 2020 by BuffaloMatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 12 hours ago, aristocrat said: who do we replace him with if we don't tag him? Christian Covington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 11 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Christian Covington not sure i want to get rid of our sack leader. i'd like to milk him for all he's got Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, aristocrat said: not sure i want to get rid of our sack leader. i'd like to milk him for all he's got I’m going to pass on paying a guy with one good season as a pass rusher and marginal run defender $12M under a tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 18 hours ago, Buffalo716 said: Isn't it like 15mil for D Tackles? I'd pass unless a tag and trade was worked out With 90 million in cap space they could easily take on the 15 million then part ways with him at the end of the season. 15 million does sound like a lot of money though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, aristocrat said: not sure i want to get rid of our sack leader. i'd like to milk him for all he's got So you have to look at why he got the sacks and what else he did. I want Phillips back, but the Bills are looking at his role in their system. McDermott is big on DL rotation. In McDermott's system, lots of sacks from the DT are a double-edged sword. Sometimes Phillips pursuing sacks came at the expense of run D, meaning he would guess wrong, and penetrate too quickly pursuing a possible sack - and lose gap integrity 'cuz, run play. Him trying to be super-quick off the snap and get a sack cost us a defensive Offside in the Pitts. game that put them in FG range in the 2nd Q. (He actually was NOT Offside, bad call, but when a DT gets into the backfield that fast the refs will call it). Phillips is rotating with Ed Oliver, who came on at the end of the season. Oliver and Phillips ended the season with almost a 50/50 snap count split, but the fine detail is that Phillips had 60-70% of the snaps in a 4 game stretch mid season, then at the end Ed came on strong and Phillips lost snaps to him. The hope is that Ed is a "rising tide" who will further develop next season; you don't draft a guy high in the 1st to sit more than he has to. You also don't pay a different guy $12M or $15M or lock him up in a long-term big-money contract if you're expecting your 1st round rookie to continue to take his snaps. The Bills overpaid for Star when McDermott was desperate to turn around the "culture" in a DL room that had the highest-paid player, Captain Big Puff, showing late to meetings when he didn't sleep through 'em and taking plays off. They feel less need to overpay now, which is why they just asked Star to swap $$ for guarantees. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 hours ago, ProcessTruster said: yep. he was clearly playing not for the Bills last year, but 100% in anticipation of FA. TBH, I don't think that's fair to Phillips. I think he was legit having a good time here, improving his game, loving his teammates (remember how he lifted Josh up after a TD, like Simba?). I think he was playing for both. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: TBH, I don't think that's fair to Phillips. I think he was legit having a good time here, improving his game, loving his teammates (remember how he lifted Josh up after a TD, like Simba?). I think he was playing for both. He was a 2nd round pick from a big program school that went to a horribly run team. I think folks are a bit unfair saying he was just playing for the potential payout. Of course that would play into it a bit, as it would for ALL of us. But it's not like he came out of nowhere. He could just as easily be starting to hit his prime and very well worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 If the Bills want to keep him..... Just work out a deal and don't mess with the Franchise Tag. Its not worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, thebandit27 said: Christian Covington So here's the question How important is it, in your view, to keep size on our DL? Covington is 6'2", 289 Phillips is 6'6", 349 Oliver is 6'3", 292 Lotulelei listed at 6'2", 315 (think he's heavier) Harrison Phillips 6'3", 307 Corey Liuget listed at 6'2", 300 (think he's heavier) Vincent Taylor 6'3", 311 I "get it" that "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog", but other things being equal.... doesn't size matter? Big J9797 does have that "trait you can't coach" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So here's the question How important is it, in your view, to keep size on our DL? Covington is 6'2", 289 Phillips is 6'6", 349 Oliver is 6'3", 292 Lotulelei listed at 6'2", 315 (think he's heavier) Harrison Phillips 6'3", 307 Corey Liuget listed at 6'2", 300 (think he's heavier) Vincent Taylor 6'3", 311 I "get it" that "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog", but other things being equal.... doesn't size matter? Big J9797 does have that "trait you can't coach" That he does...but if he’s only a so-so run stopper using that size, then I’m not as concerned. If we want a big body to plug in there, I’m just as content signing a Michael Pierce or DJ Reader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: That he does...but if he’s only a so-so run stopper using that size, then I’m not as concerned. If we want a big body to plug in there, I’m just as content signing a Michael Pierce or DJ Reader. So I thought that Phillips run D did improve this year Do you think that's what Beane meant in his presser when he said "I think he still has room to develop" or words to that effect? Note: I am not advocating for a tag, transition or franchise. I think Beane would like to keep Phillips, but they have a value on him given his role on the team, and they're willing to "bend but not break" it to keep him. His agent calls Beane and says "we got a Linval Joseph type deal lined up", Beane says "good for you!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So I thought that Phillips run D did improve this year Do you think that's what Beane meant in his presser when he said "I think he still has room to develop" or words to that effect? Yeah probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 hours ago, thebandit27 said: I’m going to pass on paying a guy with one good season as a pass rusher and marginal run defender $12M under a tag. I really hadn't even considered tagging Jordan Phillips until now............IMO he really stinks against the run. He has that NT weight and that's what people see....... but he's really tall and long legged so the kind of pad level that might work for DJ Reader doesn't work for him and I'm not sure if he will ever be willing or able to play with better leverage against the run. But if teams go crazy tagging more prospective UFA's than expected............it might be a good idea to tag him late in the process and then take your chances that he might sign it while you negotiate with alternatives like Covington or Gerald McCoy or Vernon Butler etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 3 hours ago, auburnbillsbacker said: With 90 million in cap space they could easily take on the 15 million then part ways with him at the end of the season. 15 million does sound like a lot of money though. Problem is I'm not sure if he's worth that much He isn't a gap sound player which is important in McDermott's defense and is prone to being out of position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 Hard pass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: If the Bills want to keep him..... Just work out a deal and don't mess with the Franchise Tag. Its not worth it. What if they would like his services for one more season but don't want to lock him up long term? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 57 minutes ago, auburnbillsbacker said: What if they would like his services for one more season but don't want to lock him up long term? Its a risk either way. He had more sacks this season than his entire career. The major question is - Can he repeat that? You make him an offer that can easily be managed with bonuses and out clauses. Some players don't like to be tagged and the headache that comes with it IMO is not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 I would say the chance is as close to ZERO without actually being zero as you can get. There is no way they franchise Phillips. They are already paying big money to 2 DT's they cannot afford to pay a huge percentage of their cap to that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, matter2003 said: I would say the chance is as close to ZERO without actually being zero as you can get. There is no way they franchise Phillips. They are already paying big money to 2 DT's they cannot afford to pay a huge percentage of their cap to that position. Who is that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 (edited) On 2/12/2020 at 2:54 PM, DrDawkinstein said: The 2019 Tag Number for DTs was $15,209,000. Just putting that out there for easy reference. Edited February 13, 2020 by HOUSE 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 On 2/12/2020 at 2:54 PM, DrDawkinstein said: The 2019 Tag Number for DTs was $15,209,000. Just putting that out there for easy reference. Well that ends this discussion then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddo Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 56 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said: Well that ends this discussion then I doubt it does, but it should. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 13, 2020 Share Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, matter2003 said: I would say the chance is as close to ZERO without actually being zero as you can get. There is no way they franchise Phillips. They are already paying big money to 2 DT's they cannot afford to pay a huge percentage of their cap to that position. 1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said: Who is that? Cmon man, haven’t you heard that cost controlled rookie deals are also big money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) Who is Joe DiBiase of WGR and what credence does he have? https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/jordan-phillips-is-perfect-for-the-franchise-tag "After thinking about the idea more and more, it actually makes sense. A lot of sense. In fact, the Bills would probably be smart to franchise tag Phillips, which would cost them $15.5 million on the cap. In no way am I saying that I think Phillips is a $15.5 million player. He had 9.5 sacks last season, yes. He's a better all around defensive tackle than Star Lotulelei, yes. However, Phillips struggled in run defense this past season. He's a great penetrator up the middle, but there's a reason he only received a grade of 53.6 from Pro Football Focus and didn't crack their top-100 free agents for this offseason. The idea of franchise tagging Phillips has nothing to do with the $15.5 million. It has everything to do with it only being for one year. The worst thing I believe the Bills could do is sign Phillips to a multi-year extension. By 2021, the Bills will have to give out new deals to cornerback Tre'Davious White, left tackle Dion Dawkins, linebacker Matt Milano, and even safety Jordan Poyer if they want to keep him around. A multi-year deal for Phillips would stretch into a time period where the Bills have to pay all those guys, and possibly quarterback Josh Allen and linebacker Tremaine Edmunds too. Honestly, it would be better for the Bills to pay Phillips $15.5 million for this season, rather than a three-year deal worth $24 million. It's more money per-year no doubt, but it doesn't threaten their ability to sign their own in the future. The Bills will likely want to do some other things this offseason, potentially big things. They have the third most cap space in the NFL, going into the spring at just under $82 million in space. Are they really going to use all of that? Even if Beane hadn't been careful managing the cap over the last few years, I'd tell you they're not going to find $82 million worth of free agents and draft picks to come here in one offseason. Why not use cap space on Phillips that you won't use otherwise? " He's not making a lot of sense to me. Anyone else? Edited February 14, 2020 by Hapless Bills Fan Fix formatting just for Augie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 30 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Who is Joe DiBiase of WGR and what credence does he have? https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/jordan-phillips-is-perfect-for-the-franchise-tag "After thinking about the idea more and more, it actually makes sense. A lot of sense. In fact, the Bills would probably be smart to franchise tag Phillips, which would cost them $15.5 million on the cap. In no way am I saying that I think Phillips is a $15.5 million player. He had 9.5 sacks last season, yes. He's a better all around defensive tackle than Star Lotulelei, yes. However, Phillips struggled in run defense this past season. He's a great penetrator up the middle, but there's a reason he only received a grade of 53.6 from Pro Football Focus and didn't crack their top-100 free agents for this offseason. The idea of franchise tagging Phillips has nothing to do with the $15.5 million. It has everything to do with it only being for one year. The worst thing I believe the Bills could do is sign Phillips to a multi-year extension. By 2021, the Bills will have to give out new deals to cornerback Tre'Davious White, left tackle Dion Dawkins, linebacker Matt Milano, and even safety Jordan Poyer if they want to keep him around. A multi-year deal for Phillips would stretch into a time period where the Bills have to pay all those guys, and possibly quarterback Josh Allen and linebacker Tremaine Edmunds too. Honestly, it would be better for the Bills to pay Phillips $15.5 million for this season, rather than a three-year deal worth $24 million. It's more money per-year no doubt, but it doesn't threaten their ability to sign their own in the future. The Bills will likely want to do some other things this offseason, potentially big things. They have the third most cap space in the NFL, going into the spring at just under $82 million in space. Are they really going to use all of that? Even if Beane hadn't been careful managing the cap over the last few years, I'd tell you they're not going to find $82 million worth of free agents and draft picks to come here in one offseason. Why not use cap space on Phillips that you won't use otherwise? " He's not making a lot of sense to me. Anyone else? Paragraphs are your friend. That’s my take away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Who is Joe DiBiase of WGR and what credence does he have? https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/jordan-phillips-is-perfect-for-the-franchise-tag "After thinking about the idea more and more, it actually makes sense. A lot of sense. In fact, the Bills would probably be smart to franchise tag Phillips, which would cost them $15.5 million on the cap. In no way am I saying that I think Phillips is a $15.5 million player. He had 9.5 sacks last season, yes. He's a better all around defensive tackle than Star Lotulelei, yes. However, Phillips struggled in run defense this past season. He's a great penetrator up the middle, but there's a reason he only received a grade of 53.6 from Pro Football Focus and didn't crack their top-100 free agents for this offseason. The idea of franchise tagging Phillips has nothing to do with the $15.5 million. It has everything to do with it only being for one year. The worst thing I believe the Bills could do is sign Phillips to a multi-year extension. By 2021, the Bills will have to give out new deals to cornerback Tre'Davious White, left tackle Dion Dawkins, linebacker Matt Milano, and even safety Jordan Poyer if they want to keep him around. A multi-year deal for Phillips would stretch into a time period where the Bills have to pay all those guys, and possibly quarterback Josh Allen and linebacker Tremaine Edmunds too. Honestly, it would be better for the Bills to pay Phillips $15.5 million for this season, rather than a three-year deal worth $24 million. It's more money per-year no doubt, but it doesn't threaten their ability to sign their own in the future. The Bills will likely want to do some other things this offseason, potentially big things. They have the third most cap space in the NFL, going into the spring at just under $82 million in space. Are they really going to use all of that? Even if Beane hadn't been careful managing the cap over the last few years, I'd tell you they're not going to find $82 million worth of free agents and draft picks to come here in one offseason. Why not use cap space on Phillips that you won't use otherwise? " He's not making a lot of sense to me. Anyone else? It’s a decent point, if not unorthodox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 (edited) The 9 sacks look real good but he is a liability against the run, out of position or too easily moved. Basically an interior pass rusher and not an every down tackle imo. A team out there will overpay for those sacks, that seems almost certain. Some people seem to think that the Bills have a lot of cap to throw around and overpaying for Phillips' services is no big deal, I would much rather see that money used on top level talent, long term solutions at positions of need that take more time to develop draft picks. Edited February 14, 2020 by Turk71 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Turk71 said: The 9 sacks look real good but he is a liability against the run, out of position or too easily moved. Basically an interior pass rusher and not an every down tackle imo. A team out there will overpay for those sacks, that seems almost certain. Some people seem to think that the Bills have a lot of cap to throw around and overpaying for Phillips' services is no big deal, I would much rather see that money used on top level talent, long term solutions at positions of need that take more time to develop draft picks. I’m sure fans of other teams will look at the sack numbers and want him. Watch more and realize it may not be a great investment. I’d love him back....but at the right price. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, Augie said: Paragraphs are your friend. That’s my take away. That would be my fault for the cut-n-paste method I used, not his 31 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: It’s a decent point, if not unorthodox How so? What I read him saying is we will need cap space in 3 years, so instead of saving cap to roll over, we should spend it on a guy he flat-out states is not a $15.5M player. If the guy is not a $15.5M player, why tag him for that? If he's a worthwhile player and we want to keep him, and he'd be willing to sign for $24M/3 years, why not do that instead? A deal can be structured in any kind of a way to front-load it and clear cap in the latter years. It seems like he's arguing to treat the cap like it's "Brewster's Millions" this season, giving it away on a player who he says is not worth that much because we won't spend it all - because in future years we'll need cap. But in that case why not roll over cap? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Augie said: I’m sure fans of other teams will look at the sack numbers and want him. Watch more and realize it may not be a great investment. I’d love him back....but at the right price. I don't think the right price caveat will be an option, but I wouldn't mind it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreggTX Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 There's no question that he's earned a pay raise, but this is way more. Let's see him do it 2 years in a row first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 14 hours ago, FireChans said: Cmon man, haven’t you heard that cost controlled rookie deals are also big money? Yeah Ed Oliver is one of them...Star is the other...they are 2 of the highest paid DT's in the league even with Star's paycut. Cannot allocate another huge contract to a DT...that doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMF2006 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 I will post this before I read all the comments posted in the thread. After reading the blurb from the BN article on the front page I say it does make sense with all the cap room they have now. Unless he is willing to take a 4x$8m deal the tag might be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 42 minutes ago, matter2003 said: Yeah Ed Oliver is one of them...Star is the other...they are 2 of the highest paid DT's in the league even with Star's paycut. Cannot allocate another huge contract to a DT...that doesn't make any sense. Ed Oliver is the 22nd ranked DT by pay. He makes less than half of what the #15 paid DT makes and 1/3 of what the top 5 DTs make. He is not "one of the highest paid DTs." https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/average/defensive-tackle/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 44 minutes ago, matter2003 said: Yeah Ed Oliver is one of them...Star is the other...they are 2 of the highest paid DT's in the league even with Star's paycut. Cannot allocate another huge contract to a DT...that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, huge contract for Oliver. $4.9 M per year average. Def one "of the highest paid DT's in the league." How can they ever afford any other players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo1105 Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 I think I’d be more inclined to give him the transition tag at 12 million and if someone else offers big money then you let him go. The only way I would franchise him would be if I had the intention of trading him but I can’t see him going for more than a couple mid rounders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 10 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: He's not making a lot of sense to me. Anyone else? Makes sense to me. We have the cap space and nothing else to spend it on (assuming a lot of the big names we covet in FA ultimately wont be available). Might as well spend it, and if it's only a 1 year deal, we get the cap space back next year. It works like rolling it over, except we get a talented player for a year instead of nothing. As long as the spend doesnt hinder us form signing other players for this year, then we might as well. 1 hour ago, matter2003 said: Yeah Ed Oliver is one of them...Star is the other...they are 2 of the highest paid DT's in the league even with Star's paycut. Cannot allocate another huge contract to a DT...that doesn't make any sense. The $15M Franchise Tag number is the average of the highest paid DTs. NONE of our DTs are making even close to that. We do not have high paid DTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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