Lamar Jackson: I'll Be Having That Crow Pot Pie Now (edited title)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, RoboTronic said:

 

You have to wonder, would they have picked Jackson if they were drafting higher?

 

The Ravens?  They did draft higher.  Picked TE Hayden Hurst at #25 before trading back into the 1st at #32 for Jackson

[Solomon Grundy]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:46 AM, H2o said:

While I don't think Lamar would be AS successful if he had not landed exactly where he did, I still think the talent would show through. The young man is electric out there. 

Probably because he wouldn’t have gotten the opportunity to showcase his talent if he went somewhere else. Maybe because the so called experts said he couldn’t become a NFL QB. Not based on the fact that he threw for over 3000 yds twice in college with subpar talent at the receiver positions and won the Heisman, yet Tebow was given every chance to prove himself. I, for one, was probably beating the drum the loudest for him and wished the Bills would draft him. I am though good with Josh Allen as their QB, but boy the help we could’ve gotten with those traded draft picks.

[FLFan]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:31 AM, H2o said:

In the same light that I can see the growth in Allen and believe he is a special player, I can no longer deny the fact that Lamar Jackson is a special talent at the QB position either. Yes, he has a great coaching staff from top to bottom that has tailor made the offense around him. Yes, he has a good/great defense to back him up. Yes, he has had some rough patches in the same manner as Josh throwing the ball. But again I watch him yesterday against the Texans and the young man does not disappoint. I keep thinking he will falter, but on the biggest stage he always seems up to the task. He is surely not just another system product ala Kaepernick or Tyrod with Roman at the helm. He can do things on the field that we haven't seen in this league since Michael Vick in his early days with the Falcons and when he is on throwing the ball, he is on. Even on the days he may be off throwing the football he can still beat you with his legs like he did the Seahawks or the Patriots. People keep hyping all of these other match-ups as the next Brady/Manning like Mahomes/Jackson or Watson/Jackson, but I can see the battle being Allen/Jackson for years to come. Hopefully his style of play doesn't lead to injury and it remains to be seen whether this style is also sustainable at this level, but right now he is one of my favorite players to watch in the NFL outside of the Bills every week. 

I hear you H2o but I am not ready to eat my crow quite yet, although it may be time to start preparation.  (I would like mine prepared with a nice piccata sauce) I admit he is doing far better than I thought he would.  He does have a good arm, and obviously he can run.  I have not watched any Ravens games start to finish, so despite his excellent stats I am not yet convinced he is a QB that will be able to read the field and deliver from the pocket consistently, or deliver the variety of throws he will need to have a successful career.  

 

Comparisons to Vick do not really impress me.  Although Vick was certainly electric and fun to watch, he was never a dominant QB.  He was finally showing signs he could actually play the QB position when he went to the dogs, and never regained that form.  Can he be as good as Russel Wilson should be the question.  Wilson can make any throw.  He thinks the game as well as anyone.  He is a leader.  Wilson should be the prototype for an athletic QB like Jackson and I do not see that yet, while as I said, I am impressed.  I do still think Roman’s offense is gimmicky  though and will be figured out by better defenses.  (Hopefully by the Bills). He already executes it better than Tyrod ever did, and perhaps Kap and Alex Smith as well as he is far more athletic.  

 

So hold the crow for now and let’s see how this plays out, but when it’s time, remember the lemon sauce.  

[H2o]

4 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Candidate for the post of the year!!!  It's all dead on.  

 

However, be cautioned.  If you keep writing stuff like this, you will be vilified around here! 

 

Most folks here prefer feel good delusion.  

 

 

Quote

 

  11 hours ago, simpleman said:

This is why he has had such great success so soon. He would have been an epic fail if he had been drafted by McBeane.

 

 There are two types of GMs and HCs. Those that evaluate the talent they have, and then design schemes to best fit the talent they have. And those that have huge egos who try to make talent fit the grand schemes they have on their heads. They try to pound square pegs in round holes, and if they don't fit,  they discard the square pegs no matter the cost to the team. McBeane is very much the big ego. It is about their "grand process" and "their own hand picked guys". Although not as bad as Rex, who is the ultimate "big brilliant ego". You fit their scheme, or else you are gone at whatever the cost. The "Process" is unforgiving and highly inflexible. It may succeed, but it will take multiple seasons to be able to acquire the talent that fits "The Process".

 

 Lamar was selected by a team that believed that you evaluate the talent you have, and design a scheme to best fit it without blowing up the team you have. You don't wait years to fulfill "the grand process" and make your fans suffer  years of subpar football, you win now and provide entertaining football while building for the future. The team evolves and grows as you add new and better pieces without blowing it up and starting over. Success can be achieved quicker. You don't  mold a whole roster of  50+ players to fit the arbitrary  scheme, you mold the scheme to allow the talent available to best succeed . It is flexible.

 

 

 

What is not delusion is the fact that Harbaugh is one of the best coaches in the game, a SB winning coach at that, who's teams have been well out in front of the Bills overall for quite some time. Ozzie Newsome is not only one of the best TE's in NFL history, but also one of the best GM's the league has ever seen at talent evaluation. They also had Greg Roman on their staff at the time of drafting Jackson and made him the OC because they knew HIS SYSTEM would maximize Lamar's talent. Roman's success with these types of QB's is well documented along his NFL tenures.

 

Here you have a 1st time GM and a 1st time HC who came in, got their team to the playoffs, had to tear it all down basically (aided by the Eric Wood retirement and Incognito derailment), got us out of cap hell, got whom they believe is their Franchise QB, have basically remade the whole roster in 3 years, and now are the figureheads of a 7-3 team in 2019(surpassing the 2018 win total in just 10 games). Yes, you have to sculpt things around the talent you have. I think they are doing that as best they can as you can see with the constant moving and shifting of the pieces on the field. At the same time they know the type of players they are looking for and that is whom they will go after. You look for guys who fit the system, but they are also looking for guys whom are talented at that because that's what you need for perpetual success in the NFL. 

 

I like Lamar, that's why I started this thread. I think Harbaugh is an excellent coach. But going into vain ramblings about a HC and GM who have brought this team more success in the last 3 years overall than we had seen the previous 16, outside the year we had a chance if an egg had not been laid by Bledsoe against the Steelers 3rd string defense, is grasping for straws at best. 

[RoboTronic]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Ravens?  They did draft higher.  Picked TE Hayden Hurst at #25 before trading back into the 1st at #32 for Jackson

 

Nah, I mean like if they were picking in the top 10 where all the other QB's were taken. If Flacco was gone and they needed a franchise QB, would they have passed on Mayfield, Darnold, Allen & Rosen to select Jackson etc.  

 

Yes they have done a great job with Jackson, but I question whether or not he was their top rated QB.

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, simpleman said:

This is why he has had such great success so soon. He would have been an epic fail if he had been drafted by McBeane.

 

 There are two types of GMs and HCs. Those that evaluate the talent they have, and then design schemes to best fit the talent they have. And those that have huge egos who try to make talent fit the grand schemes they have on their heads. They try to pound square pegs in round holes, and if they don't fit,  they discard the square pegs no matter the cost to the team. McBeane is very much the big ego. It is about their "grand process" and "their own hand picked guys". Although not as bad as Rex, who is the ultimate "big brilliant ego". You fit their scheme, or else you are gone at whatever the cost. The "Process" is unforgiving and highly inflexible. It may succeed, but it will take multiple seasons to be able to acquire the talent that fits "The Process".

 

 Lamar was selected by a team that believed that you evaluate the talent you have, and design a scheme to best fit it without blowing up the team you have. You don't wait years to fulfill "the grand process" and make your fans suffer  years of subpar football, you win now and provide entertaining football while building for the future. The team evolves and grows as you add new and better pieces without blowing it up and starting over. Success can be achieved quicker. You don't  mold a whole roster of  50+ players to fit the arbitrary  scheme, you mold the scheme to allow the talent available to best succeed . It is flexible.

Let me add my applause here too. 

And here’s the thing: building an offense to complement a running QB ain’t hard!  It’s old school high school/college football, and players can pick it up ridiculously fast. 

- 49ers switch from Alex Smith to Kaep - no lag/learning time! Better immediately

- Ravens: statuesque Flacco to lightning Lamar. Instant! In season. 

- Redskins to RG3, or Bills from Fitz (and Cassell in preseason !).  Better right away. 

Hell, even the Broncos went from Orton to Tebow running some kind of old option offense overnight and actually played better for a while. This whole “you have to restructure an offense to accommodate a running QB” thing is nonsense. Players adjust. 

[Mat68]

I thought Allen and Jackson had the most potential of the QBs in 2018.  I think Jackson is a dynamic athlete.  The offense the Ravens run is a modern power attack.  Overall, I Allen's development the best. He isnt being protected in a gimmicky offense.  He is being asked to to take hold of the offense and become a more efficient player.  I think he is accomplishing both of those things. This year may not be the gaudy year some wanted but could be the kind of year his career needs.

[nedboy7]

3 hours ago, Albwan said:

Sorry but the NFL will catch up to Lamar.

before or after he wins the MVP 

[Orlando Tim]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:46 AM, Mark80 said:

Jackson was absolutely tremendous at Louisville.  I have no idea why NFL teams didn't see him for the talent he clearly was.  The WR talk was completely ludicrous.  I had him behind Mayfield and Darnold on my list that year, but ahead of Rosen and Allen (who I, admittedly, had last out of the 5).  To me, this was clearly not an RGIII scenario at all.  He was thicker and had more arm talent than RGIII.  I also was hoping the Bills would stand pat and take him (if he was there) with even their second 1st round pick.  Mahomes doesn't disappoint me because I didn't see it from him in college.  With Lamar, I did.  

 

Now, I'm a big Allen fan and am very pleased with what I am seeing trajectory and improvement wise, but I do catch myself wondering "what if..." with Lamar.  Hopefully lots of fun, meaningful battles for years to come. 

What the league did not see was that his athletism would be high enough to be as good as he has been. He is probably the best athlete QB since Michael Vick and the Ravens have built an awesome game plan around him. Also I will be interested if he can keep playing at a high level once he get an injury is not the best athlete on the field. But right now his future is meaningless because he is tremendous.

[billsintaiwan]

I am sure this is somewhere in these nine pages, but RG3 was incredible in his first year. And Vick took over games for a spell.

 

If Jackson doesn't get hurt, there is no reason he couldn't keep doing this. However these guys, multiple threat qbs, always seem to get hurt. And it doesn't have to be a full blowout, just enough dings to take away the elite mobility.

[SoTier]

14 hours ago, RoboTronic said:

 

You have to wonder, would they have picked Jackson if they were drafting higher?

 

I think they targeted Jackson and correctly gauged the rest of the NFL's evaluation of him. 

 

They executed a series of trades with the Bills, Titans, and Eagles to obtain 2 first round picks in 2018, #25 and #32 when they originally had the #16 pick.

- Traded the No. 16 pick and a fifth-round pick (No. 154) to Bills for the No. 22 pick (obtained from Chiefs) and a third-round pick (No. 65, obtained from Browns).

- Traded the No. 22 pick (obtained from Chiefs) and a sixth-round pick (No. 215) to Titans for the No. 25 pick and a fourth-round pick (No. 125).

- Traded a second-round pick (No. 52), fourth-round pick (No. 125, obtained from Titans) and a 2019 second-round pick to Eagles for the No. 32 pick ( and a fourth-round pick (No. 132).

 

They used the #25 pick on TE Hayden Hurst and #32 pick on Lamar Jackson.   They also drafted starting OT Orlando Brown with their third rounder (#83) and C Bradley Bozeman in the 6th round (#215) which they got back from the Titans in another trade of picks.  They also added another TE with one of their 4th rounders which suggests they were planning on retooling their offense from the get-go..   In 2019, they brought in Greg Roman.

[without a drought]

He may need to switch to WR if he wants to have any success in  the NFL.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I wrote this last year, I just haven't gotten around to posting it.

[Gugny]

16 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

No math major but 3 is better than 14 right? So the point stands.  And our defense has certainly regressed.  Our offense didn’t help our defense by not maintaining drives.  Also, the Ravens defense has improved since they traded for Peters.

 

but let’s not pretend like the Bills defense isn’t a huge reason for Allen “win-loss” record. I believe the stat is he’s won one game where the defense gave up 20 points in his career. 

He is a more accurate passer than Vick. Vick hit the 60% barrier once in his career and that was when he was 30. Jackson is at 66%.

 

Wins and Losses are team stats; not QB stats. 

 

We've lost three games.  In two of those games, the defense got absolutely gashed to the point of embarrassment.

 

And you've been shown by two people why your assertion that Buffalo's defense is better than Baltimore's defense is 100% incorrect.  You should stop beating that drum.

[SoTier]

On 11/19/2019 at 5:11 AM, simpleman said:

This is why he has had such great success so soon. He would have been an epic fail if he had been drafted by McBeane.

 

 There are two types of GMs and HCs. Those that evaluate the talent they have, and then design schemes to best fit the talent they have. And those that have huge egos who try to make talent fit the grand schemes they have on their heads. They try to pound square pegs in round holes, and if they don't fit,  they discard the square pegs no matter the cost to the team. McBeane is very much the big ego. It is about their "grand process" and "their own hand picked guys". Although not as bad as Rex, who is the ultimate "big brilliant ego". You fit their scheme, or else you are gone at whatever the cost. The "Process" is unforgiving and highly inflexible. It may succeed, but it will take multiple seasons to be able to acquire the talent that fits "The Process".

 

 Lamar was selected by a team that believed that you evaluate the talent you have, and design a scheme to best fit it without blowing up the team you have. You don't wait years to fulfill "the grand process" and make your fans suffer  years of subpar football, you win now and provide entertaining football while building for the future. The team evolves and grows as you add new and better pieces without blowing it up and starting over. Success can be achieved quicker. You don't  mold a whole roster of  50+ players to fit the arbitrary  scheme, you mold the scheme to allow the talent available to best succeed . It is flexible.

 

Great post!  The hallmark of the successful NFL coaches over the last twenty years has been their ability to adapt to the talent available to them -- what they inherited, what they can obtain, and what they develop.   The salary cap and the CBA make it impossible to spend years building a roster that perfectly fits the HC's "vsion" even if that "vision" is even viable in the current NFL.

 

*********************************************************************************

 

20 hours ago, bigduke6 said:

eventually defensive coaches will figure Jackson out.  just like they figured Vick out.   tbh,  Jackson sitll doesnt scare me as a passer.   he hasnt played well for a large amount of time.   its entirely possible he will be a very good QB for a long time.  its also very possible he goes the way that Vick did.     time will tell.    talking about whether or not people made mistakes or missed on drafting a player with so little starts,  is,  pointless.   nobody knows.

 

18 hours ago, bills11 said:

Lamar is spectacular as an overall talent there's no debating that..but the NFL is cyclical..it remains to be seen what he will look like a year from now. All it takes is one defensive coordinator to formulate the game plan to neutralize him and the floodgates open . The Ravens passing game is great but questions remain ...they don't really attack all areas of the field ..the majority of their production comes from Seam passes and slants and high low reads over the middle of the field .

 

16 hours ago, Albwan said:

Sorry but the NFL will catch up to Lamar.

 

********************************************************************************

If wrapping yourself in up in the security blanket labeled "the league will figure Jackson out and he'll fail" makes you feel better, go for it, dudes.  However, keep in mind that although NFL defenses long ago figured out how to stop both classic pocket QBs and mobile QBs, the best ones still regularly light up the league and win championships.   DCs have known how to stop Tom Brady for 15 years or so, but they haven't been able to do it very frequently.  If Jackson can continue to improve as a passer, there's no reason to think he can't continue to be successful although it's likely that his game may morph into a more traditional style much like Russell Wilson's game has and Patrick Mahomes' game seems to be trending that way, too. 

 

The athletic QBs that Jackson is frequently compared to -- Vick, Griffin, Kaepernick -- simply were never as good as passers as Jackson is now.  Like  Mahomes and Watson, he's made tremendous strides between last season and this season, and has gotten better as the season has progressed.

 

16 hours ago, billspro said:

 

I think an organization needs to have a plan for any prospect to succeed. I don’t think Josh Allen turns out in Arizona but he has a good chance of being a franchise guy in Buffalo.

 

I disagree that the Bills have a plan for Allen to succeed.  They didn't even bother to hire a competent QB coach for him his rookie season FCOL.  He still doesn't have a sure handed #1 WR, a above average pass blocking OL or a consistent and dependable running game.

 

16 hours ago, H2o said:

 

What is not delusion is the fact that Harbaugh is one of the best coaches in the game, a SB winning coach at that, who's teams have been well out in front of the Bills overall for quite some time. Ozzie Newsome is not only one of the best TE's in NFL history, but also one of the best GM's the league has ever seen at talent evaluation. They also had Greg Roman on their staff at the time of drafting Jackson and made him the OC because they knew HIS SYSTEM would maximize Lamar's talent. Roman's success with these types of QB's is well documented along his NFL tenures.

 

Here you have a 1st time GM and a 1st time HC who came in, got their team to the playoffs, had to tear it all down basically (aided by the Eric Wood retirement and Incognito derailment), got us out of cap hell, got whom they believe is their Franchise QB, have basically remade the whole roster in 3 years, and now are the figureheads of a 7-3 team in 2019(surpassing the 2018 win total in just 10 games). Yes, you have to sculpt things around the talent you have. I think they are doing that as best they can as you can see with the constant moving and shifting of the pieces on the field. At the same time they know the type of players they are looking for and that is whom they will go after. You look for guys who fit the system, but they are also looking for guys whom are talented at that because that's what you need for perpetual success in the NFL. 

 

 

McDermott and Beane chose to dismantle the team they inherited despite making the playoffs in 2017.  The only player the Bills lost due to injury was Wood.  All the other teams that they sent packing was their choice.  As for "cap hell", almost all of it was the result of McDermott/Beane's blind commitment to shedding players without taking into consideration the cap implications.

 

The reality is that the 2019 Bills have less overall talent than the 2016 team that they inherited.  They have essentially replaced decent/good/great veterans with non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players. Their drafts have been uninspiring, primarily because they have continually traded up to gamble on projects in the first two or three rounds while passing on better prospects they could have taken if they stayed put.   They have failed to support Josh Allen with good coaching and top quality offensive talent, which compromises the ability to evaluate Allen's progress as a passer, especially the lack of a WR1.

 

Make all the excuses you want for McDermott and Beane, but three years into their tenure, the team is not significantly better than it was in 2017.   Their 7-3 record is largely a product of a schedule that has top loaded their schedule with bottom feeder teams which comes to an end on Thanksgiving Day.

 

[Stank_Nasty]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

Wins and Losses are team stats; not QB stats. 

 

We've lost three games.  In two of those games, the defense got absolutely gashed to the point of embarrassment.

 

And you've been shown by two people why your assertion that Buffalo's defense is better than Baltimore's defense is 100% incorrect.  You should stop beating that drum.

2? other than the eagles when has the d gotten embarrassed? also the ravens defense being better than the bills is extremely debatable. 

 

 

i'm completely lost and didn't read any of the convo but I felt compelled ?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

I think they targeted Jackson and correctly gauged the rest of the NFL's evaluation of him. 

 

They executed a series of trades with the Bills, Titans, and Eagles to obtain 2 first round picks in 2018, #25 and #32 when they originally had the #16 pick.

- Traded the No. 16 pick and a fifth-round pick (No. 154) to Bills for the No. 22 pick (obtained from Chiefs) and a third-round pick (No. 65, obtained from Browns).

- Traded the No. 22 pick (obtained from Chiefs) and a sixth-round pick (No. 215) to Titans for the No. 25 pick and a fourth-round pick (No. 125).

- Traded a second-round pick (No. 52), fourth-round pick (No. 125, obtained from Titans) and a 2019 second-round pick to Eagles for the No. 32 pick ( and a fourth-round pick (No. 132).

 

They used the #25 pick on TE Hayden Hurst and #32 pick on Lamar Jackson.   They also drafted starting OT Orlando Brown with their third rounder (#83) and C Bradley Bozeman in the 6th round (#215) which they got back from the Titans in another trade of picks.  They also added another TE with one of their 4th rounders which suggests they were planning on retooling their offense from the get-go..   In 2019, they brought in Greg Roman.

Greg Roman was already there as run game coordinator the year before. They promoted him after firing their oc 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 hours ago, H2o said:

What is not delusion is the fact that Harbaugh is one of the best coaches in the game, a SB winning coach at that, who's teams have been well out in front of the Bills overall for quite some time. Ozzie Newsome is not only one of the best TE's in NFL history, but also one of the best GM's the league has ever seen at talent evaluation. They also had Greg Roman on their staff at the time of drafting Jackson and made him the OC because they knew HIS SYSTEM would maximize Lamar's talent. Roman's success with these types of QB's is well documented along his NFL tenures.

 

Here you have a 1st time GM and a 1st time HC who came in, got their team to the playoffs, had to tear it all down basically (aided by the Eric Wood retirement and Incognito derailment), got us out of cap hell, got whom they believe is their Franchise QB, have basically remade the whole roster in 3 years, and now are the figureheads of a 7-3 team in 2019(surpassing the 2018 win total in just 10 games). Yes, you have to sculpt things around the talent you have. I think they are doing that as best they can as you can see with the constant moving and shifting of the pieces on the field. At the same time they know the type of players they are looking for and that is whom they will go after. You look for guys who fit the system, but they are also looking for guys whom are talented at that because that's what you need for perpetual success in the NFL. 

 

I like Lamar, that's why I started this thread. I think Harbaugh is an excellent coach. But going into vain ramblings about a HC and GM who have brought this team more success in the last 3 years overall than we had seen the previous 16, outside the year we had a chance if an egg had not been laid by Bledsoe against the Steelers 3rd string defense, is grasping for straws at best. 

 

Good post.

 

As far as Beane and McDermott go, I waffle.

 

Part of me agrees with @simpleman and @SoTier that the best coaches work with the players they have and adjust their scheme to maximize their impact, and that so far, McDermott and co have not shown that trait.  They dumped talent and blew things up, and there's an argument to be made that maybe they didn't need to.

 

Part of me says, you can't change things by keeping them the same.  If McDermott came in here and felt that the Bills team had a culture where mediocrity was acceptable and the good players were just playing to hit FA and get their next contract, then he couldn't necessarily achieve long-term success by working around those guys.  He had to, as he said, get the wrong guys off the bus and the right guys on the bus.

 

Certainly the Bills had a very long track record of being too good to draft high, and too bad to win playoffs.  Out of 17 years, 10 years of records between 7-9 and 9-7; an additional 5 years of 6-10.  That's the epitome of football futility.

 

So I can't quarrel with the idea that it was necessary to try something different and that includes the player acquisition strategy of taking chances on lower floor/higher ceiling guys and second-tier FA who have potential but haven't played up to it.  The jury is still out on whether the different stuff McDermott tried, is going to work.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

Wins and Losses are team stats; not QB stats. 

We've lost three games.  In two of those games, the defense got absolutely gashed to the point of embarrassment.

And you've been shown by two people why your assertion that Buffalo's defense is better than Baltimore's defense is 100% incorrect.  You should stop beating that drum.

 

Um.  By most football accountings, when your D holds the opponent under 20 points, you didn't get embarrassed.

[Gugny]

5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

2? other than the eagles when has the d gotten embarrassed? also the ravens defense being better than the bills is extremely debatable. 

 

 

i'm completely lost and didn't read any of the convo but I felt compelled ?

 

The assertion (not by me) is that the Bills are 7-3 primarily because of the defense and the Ravens are 8-2 primarily because of Lamar Jackson.

 

The Browns embarrassed the Bills' D (in addition to the Eagles doing it).

 

Don't get me wrong ... our D is great.  I think they've played incredibly well, overall, this season.  I think Baltimore's D gets the edge because of takeaways.

 

My main point was that Josh Allen's performance has significantly contributed to the Bills' wins; it's not just the defense winning games for us.

[Stank_Nasty]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

The assertion (not by me) is that the Bills are 7-3 primarily because of the defense and the Ravens are 8-2 primarily because of Lamar Jackson.

 

The Browns embarrassed the Bills' D (in addition to the Eagles doing it).

 

Don't get me wrong ... our D is great.  I think they've played incredibly well, overall, this season.  I think Baltimore's D gets the edge because of takeaways.

 

My main point was that Josh Allen's performance has significantly contributed to the Bills' wins; it's not just the defense winning games for us.

right on. Jackson has absolutely  benefitted from a good d. as would any qb. I don't disagree with a lot here other than I can make an argument for the bills defense. turnovers it almost the only significant stat they have on buffalo and its only only by 4. meanwhile we are better in yardage, ppg, sacks, and 3rd down % by a wide margin. I will say their d has had a tougher schedule of offenses though.... and I also would totally disagree the bills d got embarrassed 2 weeks ago. they went on the road and allowed 19 pts while scoring 2 points for our offense and earning them a possession. IMO that's not even close to a bad day.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

I think they targeted Jackson and correctly gauged the rest of the NFL's evaluation of him.

 

I think so too, but I also think they planned to sit him and ride with Flacco for another year or two after they upgraded the OL and weapons.  It didn't work out.

 

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

 In 2019, they brought in Greg Roman.

 

Minor thing: they brought in GRo in 2017, the season after he left Buffalo.  Called him "offensive assistant and TE coach" or some such, then maybe "run game consultant".

 

That's part of why I think they didn't plan to play LJax in 2018.   They kept Mornhinweg in place and did NOT retool the offense, which is why it could be stalled (and was, in the playoffs).  But they had Roman, essentially in the wings on retainer.

 

Once they decided they'd moved on from Flacco and weren't going back, they cut ties with Mornhinweg and installed GRo to build a Lamar-friendly O.

 

I don't think the Ravens necessarily go after LJax if they were drafting high.  I think they sat down to chew over the problem, "how do we replace our aged-out QB while continuing to compete successfully and win?" and came up with a creative solution to love (and build around) the best guy they had a good shot at without major trade-ups.  And it's paying off for them.  Good for them.

 

The Bills had the same problem (with even less talent in place after the "right guys on the bus" purge) and came up with a different solution.

 

Right now, the Ravens are clearly ahead of the Bills, but they had a culture of recent success and a stable coaching situation to build from, which is clearly a "leg up"

[Gugny]

Just now, Stank_Nasty said:

right on. Jackson has absolutely  benefitted from a good d. as would any qb. I don't disagree with a lot here other than I can make an argument for the bills defense. turnovers it almost the only significant stat they have on buffalo and its only only by 4. meanwhile we are better in yardage, ppg, sacks, and 3rd down % by a wide margin. I will say their d has had a tougher schedule of offenses though.... and I also would totally disagree the bills d got embarrassed 2 weeks ago. they went on the road and allowed 19 pts while scoring 2 points for our offense and earning them a possession. IMO that's not even close to a bad day.

 

Perhaps I was being a tad harsh with regard to the Browns game.  Losing to those scumbags stung.

[Stank_Nasty]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Perhaps I was being a tad harsh with regard to the Browns game.  Losing to those scumbags stung.

it did. it was the first game all year where I was legitimately pissed all week long. the pats was more of a sad frustration and sort of optimism knowing we honestly should have won. the eagles I just sort of laughed off. stinker of game...….. that browns game seriously gave me an eye twitch though.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, RoboTronic said:

 

Nah, I mean like if they were picking in the top 10 where all the other QB's were taken. If Flacco was gone and they needed a franchise QB, would they have passed on Mayfield, Darnold, Allen & Rosen to select Jackson etc.  

 

Yes they have done a great job with Jackson, but I question whether or not he was their top rated QB.

 

I think drafting Jackson, like drafting Allen, was a strategy adopted by a 9-7 team that needed a new QB.

 

Of course, the teams involved are never going to say so, and in both cases it may have worked out better for them than the other alternatives that year.  Time will tell.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

The assertion (not by me) is that the Bills are 7-3 primarily because of the defense and the Ravens are 8-2 primarily because of Lamar Jackson.

 

That assertion would be wrong.  The Ravens D is legit

 

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

The Browns embarrassed the Bills' D (in addition to the Eagles doing it).

 

I don't think that's a fair take.  The Bills didn't get a needed stop.  But holding a team to 19 points is not usually described as "embarrassed".  And that goal line stand was Epic.

 

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

My main point was that Josh Allen's performance has significantly contributed to the Bills' wins; it's not just the defense winning games for us.

 

Both teams are winning because of both sides of the ball.  The Ravens are winning by bigger point margins because their offense is more productive.

[whatdrought]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Ravens?  They did draft higher.  Picked TE Hayden Hurst at #25 before trading back into the 1st at #32 for Jackson

 

This is an interesting aspect to this... Bills fans like to argue that we missed the easy decision to take Jackson, but if that was true and the Ravens knew he was what they’ve turned him into, would they have ever risked not taking him with that first pick? 

[DCOrange]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

That assertion would be wrong.  The Ravens D is legit

 

Their defense has become good since acquiring Peters. Before that, they were around 20th in the league while the Ravens offense has been #1 or #2 from the beginning of the year to now, and that is undoubtedly primarily because of Lamar's skills. The Bills' offense on the other hand has held the team back.

[H2o]

22 minutes ago, SoTier said:

McDermott and Beane chose to dismantle the team they inherited despite making the playoffs in 2017.  The only player the Bills lost due to injury was Wood.  All the other teams that they sent packing was their choice.  As for "cap hell", almost all of it was the result of McDermott/Beane's blind commitment to shedding players without taking into consideration the cap implications.

 

The reality is that the 2019 Bills have less overall talent than the 2016 team that they inherited.  They have essentially replaced decent/good/great veterans with non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players. Their drafts have been uninspiring, primarily because they have continually traded up to gamble on projects in the first two or three rounds while passing on better prospects they could have taken if they stayed put.   They have failed to support Josh Allen with good coaching and top quality offensive talent, which compromises the ability to evaluate Allen's progress as a passer, especially the lack of a WR1.

 

Make all the excuses you want for McDermott and Beane, but three years into their tenure, the team is not significantly better than it was in 2017.   Their 7-3 record is largely a product of a schedule that has top loaded their schedule with bottom feeder teams which comes to an end on Thanksgiving Day.

 

 

They didn't inherit the 2016 team, they inherited the team after the 2016 season. Gilmore chose to leave the offseason they came in and I fully believe he was never going to re-sign here. Robert Woods bolted for LA, the place he wanted to be as well. Marquise Goodwin was the epitome of fragile while here, turning in one solid season, and SF gave him more money than we were willing to offer for sure. They let Zach Brown walk as well, who valued himself more than we did and was out for the biggest contract he could get. Watkins was a self-admitted malcontent nearing the end of his rookie deal. They trade him for Gaines and a 2nd. Dareus, while being a talented player, didn't put forth the effort he had prior to his big contract and had gotten himself in the doghouse with his behind the scenes antics. They cut bait and got what they could from Jax. Glenn, albeit talented as well, had an injury history that was piling up and a situation that unfolded over his foot/ankle injury here that seems eerily similar to the situation he took Cincy through this year if I am not mistaken. He was sent to Cincy in a trade to help position us for our QB. The cap situation was inherited from Whaley with the contracts he handed out. We can also throw the Charles Clay deal in there as another Whaley gem, even though he was here through last season. Fact of the matter is many of the better players we had on the 2016 roster chose to leave on their own in FA in 2017. But at the same time, let's not forget that in 2017 we added both Poyer and Hyde to the roster in FA. Great gets for the Bills. 

 

After that first season where they made the playoffs, Beane and McDermott determined somewhere along the line that Tyrod was not the long term answer at QB. That was their main focus heading into their first full offseason together. Tyrod is traded to the Browns, a deal where they were completely fleeced by Beane. They traded Glenn to Cincy to position themselves for said QB as well. Preston Brown? Adios. In this time we also find out Wood is going to be forced to retire because of a neck injury. They get Josh in the draft, as well as the QB of the defense in Edmunds. At this time Richie is starting to come off of the rails, drinking and drugging again. He says he is retiring. They trade Glenn because they are comfortable with Dawkins at LT, lose Incognito because of his life direction at the time, and Wood is forced to retire because of a neck injury. That is 3 new starters along the OL going into 2018, with two of those being really good players we had previously expected to be here. The cap situation and timing of things in some instances hindered them from being able to do but so much. We go 6-10 and Josh gets to make starts because Peterman was absolutely horrendous, still absolutely horrendous like we all knew, and the team starts growing together. In 2019 they hit FA to remake that OL, bring in a couple of solid WR's, and add a couple other pieces because they had the $$$ to maneuver. 

 

Draft wise:

 

2017: Tre White 1st,  Dion Dawkins 2nd, Matt Milano 5th (missed on Zay 2nd, Peterman 5th, and Vallejo 6th)

 

2018: Josh Allen 1st, Tremaine Edmunds 1st, Harrison Phillips 3rd, Taron Johnson 4th, Siran Neal 5th, Levi Wallace UFA (Wyatt Teller 5th got a us a pick from Cleveland, the rest were fodder imo, McCloud and Proehl)

 

2019: Ed Oliver 1st, Cody Ford 2nd, Devin Singletary 3rd, Dawson Knox 3rd, Jaquan Johnson 6th, Darryl Johnson 7th. 

 

Do I agree with every move they have made? Nope. I do think they have done well in the draft, despite how the hindsight crowd wants to portray things. They are drafting a young core, sprinkling in some solid vet additions through FA, and building the team towards sustainable success. Your assessment of the team being full of "non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players" is being a bit overly dramatic and seemingly from a stance that they haven't done what you claim you would have done. That's your take then so be it. Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

 

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good post.

 

As far as Beane and McDermott go, I waffle.

 

Part of me agrees with @simpleman and @SoTier that the best coaches work with the players they have and adjust their scheme to maximize their impact, and that so far, McDermott and co have not shown that trait.  They dumped talent and blew things up, and there's an argument to be made that maybe they didn't need to.

 

Part of me says, you can't change things by keeping them the same.  If McDermott came in here and felt that the Bills team had a culture where mediocrity was acceptable and the good players were just playing to hit FA and get their next contract, then he couldn't necessarily achieve long-term success by working around those guys.  He had to, as he said, get the wrong guys off the bus and the right guys on the bus.

 

Certainly the Bills had a very long track record of being too good to draft high, and too bad to win playoffs.  Out of 17 years, 10 years of records between 7-9 and 9-7; an additional 5 years of 6-10.  That's the epitome of football futility.

 

So I can't quarrel with the idea that it was necessary to try something different and that includes the player acquisition strategy of taking chances on lower floor/higher ceiling guys and second-tier FA who have potential but haven't played up to it.  The jury is still out on whether the different stuff McDermott tried, is going to work.

And I can respect your take as well my friend. I also agree that the jury is out for everything as a whole. But this regime, team they are building, and everything that has taken place since they have been here seems to have a completely different energy than that of those past. It kind of reminds me of the same feel the Bills had in the late 90's under Wade. We'll see how things go. 

[aristocrat]

The Ravens just run it down people's throats and win that time of possession.  Averaging over 34 mins total with 36 mins at home.  Ingram is gonna be close to or over 1000 yard rushing, jackson might too,  then their third guy will have close to 700 yards.  Their offense is on pace to break the all time team rushing record which is 3165.  You have to figure out how to take away or cut their run game in half and you can beat them or just beat them at what they do.  The browns ran it down their throat and smoked them. 

 

 Their defense is set up well cause other team start throwing the ball more cause they have to play catch up and they have a nice secondary.   

[The Frankish Reich]

H2o (good post but too long to quote here) - while I agree with you that Beane and McD have drafted well, unless Josh Allen takes a huge step forward they’ll always be remembered as the guys who traded away the pick that turned into Mahomes, not to mention being the guys who passed on Watson and traded up so they wouldn’t be stuck with Lamar. I imagine the Portland Trailblazers were drafting really well overall when they passed on Michael Jordan ....

Edited November 20, 2019 by The Frankish Reich

[Rc2catch]

I will eat some crow pie as well as Jackson has done better than I thought he was capable of, and he’s a legit MVP this season. But it’s a long season, the games count more towards the end. Roman is a great great run game coordinator and he’s built an offense that’s fairly unstoppable with all the formations. Still not sold Jackson can last or stay effective long term though 

[H2o]

19 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

H2o (good post but too long to quote here) - while I agree with you that Beane and McD have drafted well, unless Josh Allen takes a huge step forward they’ll always be remembered as the guys who traded away the pick that turned into Mahomes, not to mention being the guys who passed on Watson and traded up so they wouldn’t be stuck with Lamar. I imagine the Cleveland Cavaliers were drafting really well overall when they passed on Michael Jordan ....

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

10 minutes ago, H2o said:

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Chemical

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

 

That seems like a very hasty/lofty label for just one solid season.  I'm going to wait a few years before giving anyone that kind of crown.  Just like I'll wait a few years before deeming someone "not good enough."

[H2o]

15 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

And if Allen is a solid QB who gets a ring/rings while not having Mahomes' stats, but Mahomes never gets one despite the coulda, shoulda, woulda's then what? He may just be Dan Marino in the end. Still a brilliant career, but sometimes stats aren't everything. 

[Dopey]

46 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

Barkley be like "Mike, did you see what that guy wrote!? He ain't even me, and I ain't got no rings!!" 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, H2o said:

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

Yep, it was Portland with Sam Bowie (who was, by the way, kind of the obvious choice at the time)

Hey, this weekend we get to show up the Broncos for passing on the QB from the school just an hour or so up I-25 ...

[njbuff]

I’m not taking a damn thing away from Jackson, but there are still 6 games and the post season to go before taking a piece of that crow.

 

All it takes is one shot to end it all or that DC to figure Jackson out to derail it all too.

 

But people love throwing accolades too fast to go along with calling players busts too fast.

[NickelCity]

13 hours ago, H2o said:

 

They didn't inherit the 2016 team, they inherited the team after the 2016 season. Gilmore chose to leave the offseason they came in and I fully believe he was never going to re-sign here. Robert Woods bolted for LA, the place he wanted to be as well. Marquise Goodwin was the epitome of fragile while here, turning in one solid season, and SF gave him more money than we were willing to offer for sure. They let Zach Brown walk as well, who valued himself more than we did and was out for the biggest contract he could get. Watkins was a self-admitted malcontent nearing the end of his rookie deal. They trade him for Gaines and a 2nd. Dareus, while being a talented player, didn't put forth the effort he had prior to his big contract and had gotten himself in the doghouse with his behind the scenes antics. They cut bait and got what they could from Jax. Glenn, albeit talented as well, had an injury history that was piling up and a situation that unfolded over his foot/ankle injury here that seems eerily similar to the situation he took Cincy through this year if I am not mistaken. He was sent to Cincy in a trade to help position us for our QB. The cap situation was inherited from Whaley with the contracts he handed out. We can also throw the Charles Clay deal in there as another Whaley gem, even though he was here through last season. Fact of the matter is many of the better players we had on the 2016 roster chose to leave on their own in FA in 2017. But at the same time, let's not forget that in 2017 we added both Poyer and Hyde to the roster in FA. Great gets for the Bills. 

 

After that first season where they made the playoffs, Beane and McDermott determined somewhere along the line that Tyrod was not the long term answer at QB. That was their main focus heading into their first full offseason together. Tyrod is traded to the Browns, a deal where they were completely fleeced by Beane. They traded Glenn to Cincy to position themselves for said QB as well. Preston Brown? Adios. In this time we also find out Wood is going to be forced to retire because of a neck injury. They get Josh in the draft, as well as the QB of the defense in Edmunds. At this time Richie is starting to come off of the rails, drinking and drugging again. He says he is retiring. They trade Glenn because they are comfortable with Dawkins at LT, lose Incognito because of his life direction at the time, and Wood is forced to retire because of a neck injury. That is 3 new starters along the OL going into 2018, with two of those being really good players we had previously expected to be here. The cap situation and timing of things in some instances hindered them from being able to do but so much. We go 6-10 and Josh gets to make starts because Peterman was absolutely horrendous, still absolutely horrendous like we all knew, and the team starts growing together. In 2019 they hit FA to remake that OL, bring in a couple of solid WR's, and add a couple other pieces because they had the $$$ to maneuver. 

 

Draft wise:

 

2017: Tre White 1st,  Dion Dawkins 2nd, Matt Milano 5th (missed on Zay 2nd, Peterman 5th, and Vallejo 6th)

 

2018: Josh Allen 1st, Tremaine Edmunds 1st, Harrison Phillips 3rd, Taron Johnson 4th, Siran Neal 5th, Levi Wallace UFA (Wyatt Teller 5th got a us a pick from Cleveland, the rest were fodder imo, McCloud and Proehl)

 

2019: Ed Oliver 1st, Cody Ford 2nd, Devin Singletary 3rd, Dawson Knox 3rd, Jaquan Johnson 6th, Darryl Johnson 7th. 

 

Do I agree with every move they have made? Nope. I do think they have done well in the draft, despite how the hindsight crowd wants to portray things. They are drafting a young core, sprinkling in some solid vet additions through FA, and building the team towards sustainable success. Your assessment of the team being full of "non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players" is being a bit overly dramatic and seemingly from a stance that they haven't done what you claim you would have done. That's your take then so be it. Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

 

And I can respect your take as well my friend. I also agree that the jury is out for everything as a whole. But this regime, team they are building, and everything that has taken place since they have been here seems to have a completely different energy than that of those past. It kind of reminds me of the same feel the Bills had in the late 90's under Wade. We'll see how things go. 

 

*Slow clap*

 

Well done.

[Julio Hopkins]

13 hours ago, H2o said:

Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

Not sure you recognize how weak the Bills' schedule is.  A combined 15-55 against the teams they've beaten, a third of those wins are from the 5-5 Titans.  They have beaten the bottom of the barrel, maybe they prove more in future games though.  

 

 

[Putin]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:23 AM, Gordio said:

L Jackson is Greg Roman's dream QB.  He has everything in his arsenal that Roman wants in a QB.  It is a perfect match.  L Jackson is like Mike Vick on steroids.  yes he is that talented.  The people that compare him to T Taylor that is funny.  Taylor has never had the skill set like LJ.  Not even close.  

I would pump the brakes a little bit , yes he’s been playing great so far , even beyond my expectations actually , 

the only question I have can this be sustainable ? And IMO eventually teams will catch up and will be able to defend and keep him in the pocket , and IF that happens can he stay in the pocket and win the game ? 

I guess will see !!!

And BTW I’m glad we got Allen , and even today I would take Allen over Lamar or the other 3 , I think Allen  will have BETTER/LONGER career!!!

 

GO BILLS !!!! 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Putin