Virgil Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday It was just a miscommunication. JA and Brown are usually money on that back shoulder option route. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. It happens. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Maybe, just maybe, the real difference between an OC that looks good and one that doesn’t is the quality of the QB. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, BringBackOrton said: Maybe, just maybe, the real difference between an OC that looks good and one that doesn’t is the quality of the QB. Both failed in the situation. Seattle loses if the 49ers kicker, who someone obviously made a poll about, makes that kick. To me, if you read the whole thing, it’s more about why those are the type of plays being called today 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: Maybe, just maybe, the real difference between an OC that looks good and one that doesn’t is the quality of the QB. So you're saying we should bring back Orton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday It didn't seem as odd with a guy like Wilson back there. I think what really went into it though, is the turnovers in the ground game. I think Caroll would rather lose at Russ' hand than Carson/other back I can't remember fumbling the ball away in a critical moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: Both failed in the situation. Seattle loses if the 49ers kicker, who someone obviously made a poll about, makes that kick. To me, if you read the whole thing, it’s more about why those are the type of plays being called today Yeah, both failed but no one is trying to fire Wilson’s OC, mostly because he’s playing like an MVP candidate this year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted November 12, 2019 Author Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: Yeah, both failed but no one is trying to fire Wilson’s OC, mostly because he’s playing like an MVP candidate this year. But that’s my point. Don’t call plays for someone like Wilson. We have Allen who struggles with the deep ball right now and you signed Beasley for those types of situations. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, Virgil said: But that’s my point. Don’t call plays for someone like Wilson. We have Allen who struggles with the deep ball right now and you signed Beasley for those types of situations. And yet, prior to last game, Allen showed that he would mostly ignore Beasley this season. Not sure if it’s trust or what, but he has never been Allen’s go to target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Virgil said: But that’s my point. Don’t call plays for someone like Wilson. We have Allen who struggles with the deep ball right now and you signed Beasley for those types of situations. Beasley was open on 3rd down. We checked Brown into his route. On 1st, 2nd, or a longer 3rd down attempt, that is the read, and you make the play. On 3rd and 4 given the time in the game, you need to be ready to keep the sticks moving, not just make the standard read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, Virgil said: But that’s my point. Don’t call plays for someone like Wilson. We have Allen who struggles with the deep ball right now and you signed Beasley for those types of situations. And Bingo was his name-o. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiltonWaddams Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 8 minutes ago, Mango said: Beasley was open on 3rd down. We checked Brown into his route. On 1st, 2nd, or a longer 3rd down attempt, that is the read, and you make the play. On 3rd and 4 given the time in the game, you need to be ready to keep the sticks moving, not just make the standard read. Arguing this point would be ridiculous. But, I think we have to have some faith in our second year quarterback, who was always a project, to improve and to learn from these mistakes. A lot of us have been surprised by elements of Josh’s game that have improved this year and elements that have regressed, such as the long ball. An area where we haven’t seen enough improvement is the quick reads that you see the truly elite quarterbacks get and succeed at. It’s tough to preach patience when you have a team at six and three, but not having patience with a talent as tantalizing as Josh is going to cost us too much. I want him to be great as much as the next guy, and he still may be, but dwelling on the negative’s isn’t helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Virgil said: Both failed in the situation. Seattle loses if the 49ers kicker, who someone obviously made a poll about, makes that kick. To me, if you read the whole thing, it’s more about why those are the type of plays being called today True. Contrary to what that guy believes, there are bad OCs out there. A good one can make a difference. There’s definitely an art to it, and some are just much better than others. Wilson is a superior QB, but even that can’t always bail out a bad strategy. Allen isn’t playing at a level to succeed with a mediocre scheme just yet. I hope he can improve, but in the meantime I don’t think he can overcome Daboll’s lackluster game plans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Remember when Seattle lost a super bowl because they decided to throw the ball instead of giving the ball to Lynch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: Remember when Seattle lost a super bowl because they decided to throw the ball instead of giving the ball to Lynch? I’ll never forget it. I hate the Seahawks for that and never root for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 25 minutes ago, Mango said: On 3rd and 4 given the time in the game, you need to be ready to keep the sticks moving, not just make the standard read. So on the 3rd and 4 touchdown to John Brown that won us the Jets game, we made the wrong play? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franco_92 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 35 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: Yeah, both failed but no one is trying to fire Wilson’s OC, mostly because he’s playing like an MVP candidate this year. While true, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to question what Daboll is doing without reaming into Allen every single time we do it - it's its own issue independent of quarterback. We can also have a discussion about where Allen falls short. Two discussions are allowed. More, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 41 minutes ago, Virgil said: Both failed in the situation. Seattle loses if the 49ers kicker, who someone obviously made a poll about, makes that kick. To me, if you read the whole thing, it’s more about why those are the type of plays being called today SF was completely jobbed in that game. On that third and short play in OT, the RB *clearly* got the first down. It was a terrible spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I paid attention to the Seattle punt with 130 left in OT. Playing for a tie and they got bailed out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krf139 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I also noticed how dominant the defensive lines on both teams were getting pressure from the edge and up the middle. Made me realize just how far off we are from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 Seattle was playing a legit defense. We can't find flow offensively against the lower tier defenses. That's the issue and the reason at 6-2 and certainly now at 6-3 - we're not taken seriously nationally. It's also the reason for our own fans to be skeptical. We know the way we're playing offense isn't leading us anywhere substantial beyond possibly getting a WC. I see Allen's mistakes but I don't see him as the reason for the dreadful play. We look completely unprepared to combat what the defenses are doing and personally I put that on Daboll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, arcane said: While true, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to question what Daboll is doing without reaming into Allen every single time we do it - it's its own issue independent of quarterback. We can also have a discussion about where Allen falls short. Two discussions are allowed. More, even. Absolutely. However, I wonder if it’s possible that every single OC since Jim Kelly era has sucked. Or, perhaps, that it’s more likely that the QB’s since Kelly have been the deficient ones. Are there more quality OC’s in the world or more quality QB’s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: SF was completely jobbed in that game. On that third and short play in OT, the RB *clearly* got the first down. It was a terrible spot. That’s true. SF, read Jimmy G, also got extremely lucky on that drive as well. The football Gods giveth and the football Gods taketh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badassgixxer05 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 I think these calls are just the OC overthinking the play and trying to outsmart the DC. On 3rd and 4 you think the D's plan is to take away short routes and plug the running lanes with 8 in the box. So the OC says im going to throw deep over the top and get a big play for the win. Its a lower percentage play, but when you hit it you are a genius, when you don't it looks like a head scratcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said: Maybe, just maybe, the real difference between an OC that looks good and one that doesn’t is the quality of the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday An offense needs to have a balance of efficiency and explosiveness. As I mentioned in another post, Brian Daboll is trying to recreate the Patriot offense, which relies on efficiency. To make it work, you need to consistently put together 10-15 play drives without mistakes. We succeed on this about 2-3 times per game, which is not enough. The rest of the time, we kill drives with penalties, sacks, turnovers, drops and miscommunications. The remedy for this is to either: A) Clean up the mistakes B) Make more explosive plays Personally, I'm becoming more discouraged that we can accomplish A during this season. Nine games in, and we still look the same as Week 1. Which means we need more explosive plays to happen during the game. This will require Josh Allen to start hitting on some deep throws. And it will require us to utilize more of Devon Singletary and less of Frank Gore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday So, tying some threads together. Seattle is a team, like the Bills, that is very much outperforming their point differential/game right now. That said, for Seattle, it's not their O but their D that is underperforming. Seattle is 25th in PA/game and 8th in PF/game. They're kind of the Anti-Bills. We're 3rd in PA/game and 27th in PF/game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So, tying some threads together. Seattle is a team, like the Bills, that is very much outperforming their point differential/game right now. That said, for Seattle, it's not their O but their D that is underperforming. Seattle is 25th in PA/game and 8th in PF/game. They're kind of the Anti-Bills. We're 3rd in PA/game and 27th in PF/game. Is there a stat out there that somehow captures WHEN the points against are given up? I'm looking at the Browns game as a "blown save," to put a baseball spin on it. Yeah ... we only gave up 19 points, but that last TD drive for Cleveland was a ball-buster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla03 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 the difference is they have a HOF QB and we have Josh Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: It was just a miscommunication. JA and Brown are usually money on that back shoulder option route. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. It happens. If by money, you mean 30% success rate on that play vs a Cover 0; then yes you are correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday Just remember with the personnel grouping we had on the field vs a Cover 0 D; there are only a couple options you can run. You then have to make the check at the line (while being mindful of the play clock and not wasting time getting to the line and a play called) and, once snapped, you only have 2 seconds to make the play. You hope that you made the right check, that the QB and WR are on the same page in regards to the location of the pass and the defenders are in the correct location for you to complete it...It's up to the football gods at that point... All this being said we were 5-13 (38%) on 3rd downs; it didn't have to come down to the final drive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: If by money, you mean 30% success rate on that play vs a Cover 0; then yes you are correct I meant the back shoulder throw. I didn't consider the coverage. I know JA isn't great against Cover 0, but I don't know the stats. Where did you find that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I meant the back shoulder throw. I didn't consider the coverage. I know JA isn't great against Cover 0, but I don't know the stats. Where did you find that? Cover 1 had it up yesterday; I linked in a few threads. It was a disgusting stat and I'm pretty close We ran this play against Cover 0 10x. 3 completions for 25 yards and 1 TD; Josh sacked twice. Might be an int or 2, I forgot though TBH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Cover 1 had it up yesterday; I linked in a few threads. It was a disgusting stat and I'm pretty close We ran this play against Cover 0 10x. 3 completions for 25 yards and 1 TD; Josh sacked twice. Might be an int or 2, I forgot though TBH I didn't find it, but Cover 1 is the type of nut to have that wildly specific stat handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I didn't find it, but Cover 1 is the type of nut to have that wildly specific stat handy. I didn't link it because it was hard to find - it is buried in replies... On a side note, if you have The Athletic - he did a great write up of the game today... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
london_bills Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday That's why we have to be careful to run the right guy out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rochesterfan Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Virgil said: During the Monday Night game between the Seahawks and 49ers, the Seahawks had multiple drives at the end of the game where the were in 3rd and less than 5. They’d bring our 3-4 receivers and had decent runs on each drive. Moreso, they gave Wilson who can scramble well. On one of the plays, they ran the same fade route play that we did at the end of our game. Another one, they took a shot to DK deep. Basically, the Seahawks ran the same type of plays that the Bills were calling that had many of us, myself included, flipping out. Maybe this is analytics or just the modern NFL, I don’t know. But I just don’t understand these low percentage plays when the game is on the line and you have other things that are working for you. Wilson is an MVP candidate right now, so his passes were at least contested on the throws, but still. They convert on either of those 3rd downs and maybe the game ends sooner. Either way, it leads me to agree with some of you on here that Daboll does call a modern offense, but it’s not one that fits our talent. Last night was just interesting to see and gave me flashbacks to Sunday Virgil - take it a step further and go back to the end of Regulation. The 49ers drive and the Bills drive were nearly identical - with the Bills actually being more efficient. Both drives traveled 40 yards in a little over a minute. Both lead to FG attempts that were nearly identical - the difference is SF made theirs to go to OT and we missed ours. The frustrating part is McDermott get blasted as playing for the tie and being ultra conservative and a defensive minded coach - Jauron Jr and garbage like that. People praise Shanahan and there is a thread about how he doesn’t play for a tie like McDermont- when he did the exact same thing. I get that people are frustrated, but it is not like Daboll is calling plays that no one else is running. His play calls are actually very much in line with a modern NFL plan. Just like McDermott is called conservative- when he goes for 4th downs more than average teams, plays a passing attack rather than a strict run based offense, and Doesn’t punt on every fourth down near mid field. He has gone for multiple 1st downs in plus territory and very rarely punts in that situation. People really need to watch and look at more games to understand the Bills are slowly becoming a more modern team and there are going to be a lot of growing pains associated with that, but in the long run they will be better as they continue to grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 7 hours ago, MiltonWaddams said: Arguing this point would be ridiculous. But, I think we have to have some faith in our second year quarterback, who was always a project, to improve and to learn from these mistakes. A lot of us have been surprised by elements of Josh’s game that have improved this year and elements that have regressed, such as the long ball. An area where we haven’t seen enough improvement is the quick reads that you see the truly elite quarterbacks get and succeed at. It’s tough to preach patience when you have a team at six and three, but not having patience with a talent as tantalizing as Josh is going to cost us too much. I want him to be great as much as the next guy, and he still may be, but dwelling on the negative’s isn’t helping. Not a lot of patience out there. Daboll and Allen are both in this together and both have a lot to prove. Daboll, with his dubious stints as OC for other NFL teams producing offenses that could not score with no track record of developing QBs. Allen, proving his detractors wrong that he can be an accurate and effective QB. I expected these games, but when they happen I still get bent out of shape. I hope that QB room is a place where they can work on game plans together that Allen feels comfortable executing and I feel that Daboll has to find ways to get Singletary more involved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Another Daboll salvage thread. Niiiiice. 7 hours ago, Gugny said: Is there a stat out there that somehow captures WHEN the points against are given up? I'm looking at the Browns game as a "blown save," to put a baseball spin on it. Yeah ... we only gave up 19 points, but that last TD drive for Cleveland was a ball-buster. You're looking at it all wrong: 3rd ranked Defense!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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