I Think Milano is the Problem with our Run D

[Dablitzkrieg]

Man, teams with good olines like Dallas will be a very tough matchup.  Should be interesting to see if they can adjust

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yes he did. He was on ice-skates

No. When they line him up tilted like that it's to open up B gap by engaging C. You can see him reach toward Kelce but the guy is too good to get caught. He's not getting moved, he's supposed to effect MLB blocker and keep Edmunds clean. He misses here but he's not getting washed out.

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No. When they line him up tilted like that it's to open up B gap by engaging C. You can see him reach toward Kelce but the guy is too good to get caught. He's not getting moved, he's supposed to effect MLB blocker and keep Edmunds clean. He misses here but he's not getting washed out.

He missed kelce so he got washed out. He is tilted so he can affect the gap and reach kelce 

 

I get that he wasn't traditionally washed out of the play, but 1/11 had a job. He didn't and it put him on skates right out of the play

 

When he missed kelce he should've anchored and held firm. But he kept going downfield which amplified the hole

Edited November 5, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Chandler#81]

I think you’re crazy, OP. Dangerously crazy

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

He missed kelce so he got washed out. He is tilted so he can affect the gap and reach kelce 

 

I get that he wasn't traditionally washed out of the play, but 1/11 had a job. He didn't and it put him on skates right out of the play

?Yeh I agree that missed, that's his job to engage. I broke this play down like almost immediately after that game lmao...But ^^^people just see 'omg he's going sideways lol' not understanding the difference in the two plays where he's tilted, and they have been lining him up a lot this way season. He usually gets the double to be honest. The second video he's playing straight single gap control. The first one he's supposed to engage C enough to affect him getting on Edmunds immediately. 

[CEN-CAL17]

That’s funny cause if Star would have kept driving the LG in the direction it was going the RB would have ran right into Milano.

but.... Star does a last second swim move the wrong way and now Milano and Star are basically doing nothing.

 

Thing is, I see Milano making play repeatedly!!!! Not saying he’s perfect.

But Star has done nothing. I get it, he’s a space eater and plugs things up. But he’s been pushed around by single team blocks way to much!

[Bring it]

What’s difficult to see in these videos is the push that the offensive line gets. It’s makes a huge difference to a linebacker if the DL is getting pushed back even a little. The angles are dramatically different and not in a positive way for the linebacker! Much easier for the runner to find a lane!! In the second video without knowing the defensive call IMO Hyde got sucked in too far and couldn’t recover but I will say that Milano was too easily blocked too

I wonder if this isn’t why Taylor was brought in and Peko released? Also Oliver saw far fewer snaps last week. Maybe he is dinged up some,  but we wouldn’t know that!

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

?Yeh I agree that missed, that's his job to engage. I broke this play down like almost immediately after that game lmao...But ^^^people just see 'omg he's going sideways lol' not understanding the difference in the two plays where he's tilted, and they have been lining him up a lot this way season. He usually gets the double to be honest. The second video he's playing straight single gap control. The first one he's supposed to engage C enough to affect him getting on Edmunds immediately. 

Yea even without being in the huddle you really don't know 100% sure what is called. Watching hundreds of hours of tape will give you clues but every call has lineman playing different techniques and jobs

 

Star has been tilted alot this season in the A gap and that gives him probably a slightly better angle for doubles

 

But in the Philly video I think it's clear he was supposed to knock kelce off so Edmunds wouldn't get engaged so quick but he couldn't make the  reach ..  which 95% of 1 Techs don't vs kelce

[GunnerBill]

You are right to be worried about Milano. I think Edmunds continues to be a bigger problem but Milano has not played the run nearly as well this year as he did last. 

16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

He missed kelce so he got washed out. He is tilted so he can affect the gap and reach kelce 

 

I get that he wasn't traditionally washed out of the play, but 1/11 had a job. He didn't and it put him on skates right out of the play

 

When he missed kelce he should've anchored and held firm. But he kept going downfield which amplified the hole

 

This is exactly how I saw that play. 

[YoloinOhio]

Bring back Preston Brown! *ducks*

 

seriously though, the Bills D is built to stop the pass. It’s a modern day defense, they are light up front, teams will counter by running at them. Doesn’t mean they will always lose games because of it but good enough offenses/QBs/OCs  know what they are doing. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I'm going to go with the majority on the board here and not pin this on one guy. It's not Star, Oliver, Milano, or Edmunds. Its a little bit of everything including some terrible DB run support - think back to White against Barkley or AP against Wallace.

I'm also going to say that I'm still significantly more worried about pass rush and interceptions than I am rush defense. The Cowboys are going to steam roll us with that o-line. Maybe Baltimore too. Just be competent in rush defense in the other games and 11-5 is there for the taking.

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

My favorite Milano. Love her agenda too

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

He missed kelce so he got washed out. He is tilted so he can affect the gap and reach kelce 

 

I get that he wasn't traditionally washed out of the play, but 1/11 had a job. He didn't and it put him on skates right out of the play

 

When he missed kelce he should've anchored and held firm. But he kept going downfield which amplified the hole

 

It is one of my gripes with Star. I don't feel like he is a finisher. I felt it on that play and I felt it again on the play Sunday where he ends up facing his own endzone. He doesn't completely blow his assignment, he knows his job but he just doesn't finish and there are plays that he could make at the end of a down, if he just maintained his effort, that might just hold that run to fewer yards than it otherwise goes for. 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Edmunds is 24 games into his NFL career. Assuming he continues to "think instead of react" at seasons end, how long do you just keep saying "he is going to be fine?" 

 

You don't get two years as a starter anywhere in this league to be inconsistent and cost your team games.

 

As for the OP, I agree it's a combination of everything, but Edmunds is more so the issue than anyone else, IMO.

He may be inconsistent but I wouldn't argue he is costing us games

 

He is a big reason we have one of the best pass defenses in the league, he swallows up the middle of the field

 

Stuffing the run is a grown man's game. Throwback 1-2 down linebackers Hardly exist anymore. He really should improve as he gets bigger and stronger

 

 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Edmunds is 24 games into his NFL career. Assuming he continues to "think instead of react" at seasons end, how long do you just keep saying "he is going to be fine?" 

 

You don't get two years as a starter anywhere in this league to be inconsistent and cost your team games.

 

As for the OP, I agree it's a combination of everything, but Edmunds is more so the issue than anyone else, IMO.

I agree that he has to play better but up until the recent musical chairs at DT Edmunds HAD been playing extremely well. 

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

She causes no problem with my d

[Sherlock Holmes]

Kuechly would fill both gaps at the same time... Then Milano and Edmunds can help out in coverage/support

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 hours ago, Virgil said:

Milano has played fantastic.  He may have a few lapse plays, but so has Tre.  

 

 

..

 

AGREE.......tons of posts about he was missed during injury.....now he's back and a liability?.......SMH...........

[HOUSE]

Picky picky picky

[billsfan_34]

4 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Beautiful face; crazy agenda!!

I can look past her bs ?

[MJS]

It's a fools errand to try to identify which defender is supposed to be in which gap. Only the ones with the assignments know that.

 

Watching those videos it is hard for me to tell if Edmunds or Milano is supposed to fill the gap. Maybe both of them are equally to blame. Or maybe the linemen are not holding their ground well enough and producing too many large gaps to fill.

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, MJS said:

It's a fools errand to try to identify which defender is supposed to be in which gap. Only the ones with the assignments know that.

 

Watching those videos it is hard for me to tell if Edmunds or Milano is supposed to fill the gap. Maybe both of them are equally to blame. Or maybe the linemen are not holding their ground well enough and producing too many large gaps to fill.

While that is very much generally true... The techniques the lineman are playing can give a better idea of gap responsibility

[GG]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I agree that he has to play better but up until the recent musical chairs at DT Edmunds HAD been playing extremely well. 

 

Now my head is spinning.  Weren't you among the loudest voices calling out Edmunds for not hitting the right gap as the biggest problem with the run defense?  The DT carousel started AFTER the Miami game, apparently when their OC uncovered the weakness in the run D.

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, klos63 said:

I think that's too much generalization. It's the linebackers job to fill the gaps and that's not being done.

Just for clarification it’s not that it’s not being done it’s that it’s not 100% fit it up doesn’t make it OKJust for clarification it’s not that it’s not being done it’s that it’s not 100% fit it up doesn’t make it OK

[Locomark]

First one looked squarely to be Milano and 2nd one looked like 98 taking a very hard angle to the other side of the line leaving a giant gap. The other thing is McD plays some cover 4. Cover 4 is know for being good against the pass and against outside runs but requires good gap integrity or you get burned between the tackles. Teams are just attacking his scheme the way they are taught to attack it. I expect to see more Shaq, because he isn't a speed rusher anyway, and less wide base DEs so teams don't have such giant lanes going forward. We aren't getting the outside edge rush anyway so why take such wide stances?

Edited November 6, 2019 by Locomark

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is one of my gripes with Star. I don't feel like he is a finisher. I felt it on that play and I felt it again on the play Sunday where he ends up facing his own endzone. He doesn't completely blow his assignment, he knows his job but he just doesn't finish and there are plays that he could make at the end of a down, if he just maintained his effort, that might just hold that run to fewer yards than it otherwise goes for. 

Is it just me or does it seem like star completely runs by the play because he can’t move sideways

Edited November 6, 2019 by John from Riverside

[njbuff]

5 hours ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

We know where Rex Ryan would be looking.

[Turk71]

Fwiw pff doesn't think very highly of Milano's play this season.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/matt-milano/11918

Edmunds is rated much higher.

https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/tremaine-edmunds/50905

[EmotionallyUnstable]

As others have mentioned, it’s near impossible to know what their assignments/rules/keys are on these plays. That being said, there is one major issue here regardless: 

 

Hesitation. Their lack of reaction directly leads to them catching blocks on their heels. 
 

that being said, the defense is still playing well. McD would rather give up those runs than a big pass play IMO. Having players as twitchy and athletic as Milano/Edmunds means we sacrifice size and “fill” in the middle.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

It’s not just about getting bigger and stronger. He hesitates and is slow to react. It’s been the case since day 1... I don’t think he has the instincts to play MLB, but maybe I’m wrong and he figures it out.

He hesitates because he is overthinking

 

Usually a veteran will hit a hump and learn to start playing and not thinking. It's not a guarantee but I think Tremaine will get there

Edited November 6, 2019 by Buffalo716

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

Now my head is spinning.  Weren't you among the loudest voices calling out Edmunds for not hitting the right gap as the biggest problem with the run defense?  The DT carousel started AFTER the Miami game, apparently when their OC uncovered the weakness in the run D.

That IS the biggest problem with the run defense imo. And he had been playing extremely well up until Miami. They've been shuffling the defensive line rotation ever since H Phillips went down and it caught up with them. 

 

Go back and watch the second quarter of the NE game. It was the first time iirc they experimented w/Peko and Oliver and the Pats noticed it immediately and started gashing them on the ground. Looked very similar to the run defense the last 2.5. Frazier immediately puts Lotulelei and Phillips back in, things tighten back up and we hold. But that imo was the start of the cat-and-mouse they've been playing w/opposing OCs wrt DT rotation. 

 

It was the same scheme that game, just everyone was firing and they were really up for it. Once they start getting out-schemed, they (LBs especially) start to hesitate and react instead. Then they get into leveling wars between Frazier/McD and OCs like Redskins game. They need to get back to trusting the scheme, playing solid one gap and trusting the guy next to you is going to do his job. 

[Nextmanup]

6 hours ago, the skycap said:

My favorite Milano. Love her agenda too

Same here.

 

Loved her in "Charmed" tv series.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I agree that he has to play better but up until the recent musical chairs at DT Edmunds HAD been playing extremely well. 

Edmunds last good game was vs the Pats imo.

[BigDingus]

Gotta disagree. 

I don't think it's any one person, but the every game lately I see Edmunds making tackles well downfield, rarely meeting the RB at the line. And when he does, he's too tall & hitting up high, so he gets pushed back or plowed over.

 

I'm not saying Edmunds is even bad or anything, only that for whatever reason (scheme, positioning, I don't know) he hasn't been very good at stopping the run. I mentioned his height because I'm starting to think his lengthy body might make it harder for him to get down & stop these strong, stout RB's at the point of contact. It helps in pass defense though, so it's a give & take.

[Big Blitz]

Asked about this yesterday and I thought so....one of the best Guards in the game absolutely mauls Oliver here omg.