Is Star Lotulelei A Liability on the DL?

[MAJBobby]

I would Continue posting on this subject but apparently I am not aloud. And don’t want to upset the “kids” 

[GoBills808]

Lotulelei can hold the point of attack against double teams. He has superior strength at the position. Phillips is quicker but his base is significantly weaker, when he gets doubled he's going backwards off balance in a hurry.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Space eaters are not liabilities, they're role players.  The NFL is loaded with the latter.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

ok 2 year for Star. At 10M bucks. Name me One impactful play he has made. 

How about Phillips' sack on Fitz that immediately preceded the White INT...Dolphins C is so worried about helping the RG w/doubling Lotulelei he leaves Phillips completely alone. At the end of the play he's still engaged with Lotulelei up high with the RG trying to double him low and they haven't moved him one inch backwards.

Edited October 24, 2019 by GoBills808
lol said tanny instead of fitz

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Collectively, this message board doesn't understand how QB reads work, what an OC does besides call run v. pass plays, and the role of a MLB. 

 

It isn't exactly outside the realm of possibility that Star gets/got so many snaps because McD thinks he is doing his job well, and is absolutely not a liability. 

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, whatdrought said:

I don't know about Star's performance, but I'd be willing to bet a bigger issue for the Run D last week was missing Milano. As for Star, I've seen stuff that says he's doing his job well this year. People won't agree on either end because, like most bills players, there's a lot of preconceived ideas about him. Contractually, he's probably overpaid, but It's not like we're using the money right now anyways. 

i watched him via TV. i do have concerns.

 he did not hold his ground well.
Miami game was the first one i stayed focused on him.
This might be his last year playing for Buffalo.

 and i have been a defender

48 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He's still an automatic double team and if not he's going to walk his guy backward more often than not. Whether fans recognize the value of a Lotulelei type player is immaterial imo. Gettleman knows how to draft for defensive line, and McDermott needed to keep Kuechly/Davis and now Edmunds/Milano clean. 

nope

 theoretically correct. and what he was hired to do..

but watching last week i saw a fellow who could not get leverage.

allow me admit i cannot see what he does all the time.
not one for film study anymore

Edited October 24, 2019 by 3rdand12

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

nope

What's a nope?

[3rdand12]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How about Phillips' sack on Fitz that immediately preceded the White INT...Dolphins C is so worried about helping the RG w/doubling Lotulelei he leaves Phillips completely alone. At the end of the play he's still engaged with Lotulelei up high with the RG trying to double him low and they haven't moved him one inch backwards.

and this is what we hope to see from him and his role week in week out.

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

What's a nope?

he is not an automatic double team

when he is ? Thats when D line wins the matchups

[GoBills808]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

and this is what we hope to see from him and his role week in week out.

That's what has been happening week in and week out. He's the only guy on the roster who can take a double team and not ground. He's just a lot stronger and better at maintaining leverage than anyone else at DT. 

 

People have undervalued him because he's had this role his entire time in the league. You can find a ton of press from Rivera and Short about how difficult Lotulelei's particular function on the line is and how it's hard to accurately assess his performance because it's not statistically significant.

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's what has been happening week in and week out. He's the only guy on the roster who can take a double team and not ground. He's just a lot stronger and better at maintaining leverage than anyone else at DT. 

 

People have undervalued him because he's had this role his entire time in the league. You can find a ton of press from Rivera and Short about how difficult Lotulelei's particular function on the line is and how it's hard to accurately assess his performance because it's not statistically significant.

I agree about how he has played his role. do not care about his contract btw.
last week he was getting pushed and moved aside.

 every player has a rough outing. If Offenses are keying on him then thats a success really.
 but i just did not see a good game from him last week overall.

 I was trying to watch the runs in between tackles and Edmund development, so i ended up watching D line as while

 : )

Edited October 24, 2019 by 3rdand12

[GoBills808]

Just now, 3rdand12 said:

I agree about how he has played his role. do not care about his contract btw.
last week he was getting pushed and moved aside.

 every player has a rough outing. If Offenses are keying on him then thats a success really.
 but i just did not see a good game from him last week overall.

 I was trying to watch the runs in between tackles and Edmund development, so i ended up watching D line as while

 : )

?I think the unit as a whole underperformed against Miami so I agree. My issue with this thread is that it asks whether he's a liability on the line when he's actually their best performing DT week in and week out. 

 

He's always the check for the offensive line when he's in. Phillips and Oliver give up too much leverage and position against anything other than 1v1s. Even then they often lose their base on run plays. Lotulelei is just a more complete and much stronger anchor for the line right now. 

[3rdand12]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

?I think the unit as a whole underperformed against Miami so I agree. My issue with this thread is that it asks whether he's a liability on the line when he's actually their best performing DT week in and week out. 

 

He's always the check for the offensive line when he's in. Phillips and Oliver give up too much leverage and position against anything other than 1v1s. Even then they often lose their base on run plays. Lotulelei is just a more complete and much stronger anchor for the line right now. 

Got to have a Star type Tech in this defense, He got plenty of reps ( ? ) seemingly last week . So McD saw something. he could leverage.

 Star is hardly a liability, but he certainly is situational player with strengths and limitations .
we agree generally : )

i do think they will look to draft a 1 tech or NT of some sort to anchor down that line of scrimmage in the middle. Phillips and Phillips are not that guy.
If Star is starting next year i won't rant.

 thanks808 ! 

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

He's still an automatic double team and if not he's going to walk his guy backward more often than not. Whether fans recognize the value of a Lotulelei type player is immaterial imo. Gettleman knows how to draft for defensive line, and McDermott needed to keep Kuechly/Davis and now Edmunds/Milano clean. 

 

I just rewatched the game keeping an eye on Star and it was interesting.  I'm using your post to reply in general 808.

From the way I saw it Star had a number of double teams (may somewhere around half the time) and he got moved around pretty good

on some and was a rock on others.

Something that was strange was when he was single teamed he stayed engaged and didn't shed the blocker or even moved them much.

I didn't see the bolded part of your post very much at all.

 

I don't see Star as a liability at all but didn't see anything outstanding either.

One other thing I did notice was on most of the long runs by Miami Star was not on the field.

FWIW

[Turk71]

   I said so at the time that this was an absolutely terrible contract. Star's play has been diminishing for years and already had been in the two years before the Bills got him. He had a couple good years in the beginning with the Panthers. His job description and responsibilities haven't changed since then, his performance has.

  He has consistently been one of the lowest rated dts in the league for years now. Before you tell me his job is to eat space realize that he is not the only dt in the league who has that responsibility, but he has consistently been one of the lowest rated at doing that job. It was a horrible contract at signing and it still is now. Beane has made a lot of good moves but this wasn't one of them imo. Nobody is perfect.

  That said, let's hope the Bills find a way to mask that weakness in their line and keep winning.

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Why does saying a player sucks offend you? 

It doesn’t, it makes me laugh,

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Edited October 24, 2019 by Don Otreply
Duplicate

[Phil The Thrill]

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Looks like after next season...

 

Year		Age	Base Salary	Signing	Roster	Workout	Cap Hit	Dead Cap	Yearly Cash
2018		28	$3,500,000	$2,600,000	$500,000	$100,000	$6,700,000	$18,600,000	$17,100,000($17,100,000)
2019		29	$7,150,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$11,500,000	$18,800,000	$8,900,000($26,000,000)
2020		30	$6,250,000	$2,600,000	$1,000,000	$250,000	$10,100,000	$7,800,000	$7,500,000($33,500,000)
Potential Out: 2021, 3 yr, $33,500,000; $5,200,000 dead cap
2021		31	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$5,200,000	$8,250,000($41,750,000)
2022		32	$6,500,000	$2,600,000	$1,500,000	$250,000	$10,850,000	$2,600,000	$8,250,000($50,000,000)

That is a long time to have someone under contract

[Utah John]

My view on him is that he's OK but is vastly overpaid.  However, he's on the team, he knows the defensive plans, and we'll be happy we have him if any other DTs get injured.

[GunnerBill]

His snaps are down on last year. And they are down because he is not very good. 

[Phil The Thrill]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

His snaps are down on last year. And they are down because he is not very good. 

Harrison was getting the majority of snaps at 1 before he was injured!

[Augie]

I know every team has injuries, but getting Horrible Harry back next year will be like an extra high draft pick in an area where he can really help.  

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He's still an automatic double team and if not he's going to walk his guy backward more often than not. Whether fans recognize the value of a Lotulelei type player is immaterial imo. Gettleman knows how to draft for defensive line, and McDermott needed to keep Kuechly/Davis and now Edmunds/Milano clean. 

I’m not sure I believe automatic double team or he will walk his guy backwards. It’s a bold claim to throw out there.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I’m not sure I believe automatic double team or he will walk his guy backwards. It’s a bold claim to throw out there.

 

sometimes its as simple as turning a guy into your gap so the hole isn't really there... its that kind of thing that will never show up on stat sheets.  Or working into a double team that creates a tougher blitz pick-up for a guard or something.  Its all complementary.  I have no idea if he's doing it well because i don't want to sit down and watch running plays from the POV of the guy lining up between the center and guard.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I’m not sure I believe automatic double team or he will walk his guy backwards. It’s a bold claim to throw out there.

 

The only time I ever see him double teamed is when teams are trying to convert short yardage runs. On those plays he is often doubled. But other than that it isn't something that shows itself a lot in my all22 reviews. 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

His snaps are down on last year. And they are down because he is not very good. 

I think not very good is really selling what he does short...imo his value is in a lot of dirtywork that doesn't always show up and what it enables the line to do with him in. Pats game here for example:

 

00:01- Lotulelei takes on a hard double team, wins by maintaining position even though he's off balanced for a second, and still manages to plug gap and get an arm on RB to slow him down. Other DT (Oliver I think) taken out of play 1v1

 

1:00- Lotulelei not on the field. Big Pats completion on wheel to White to set up TD: offensive line easily handles DEs pressure and Phillips is wiped out creating perfect throwing lane for Brady w/zero interference

 

4:55- Runs stunt at goalline for Phillips and occupies 3 blockers to enable pressure up middle on Brady, ends w/Hyde INT

 

stuff like that

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The only time I ever see him double teamed is when teams are trying to convert short yardage runs. On those plays he is often doubled. But other than that it isn't something that shows itself a lot in my all22 reviews. 

 

Not looking hard enough then.

 

7 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I’m not sure I believe automatic double team or he will walk his guy backwards. It’s a bold claim to throw out there.

 

It might be a little hyperbole but Phillips/Oliver do not win against doubles rn and Lotulelei can. That's why he's important.

[Locomark]

2 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

Collectively, this message board doesn't understand how QB reads work, what an OC does besides call run v. pass plays, and the role of a MLB. 

 

It isn't exactly outside the realm of possibility that Star gets/got so many snaps because McD thinks he is doing his job well, and is absolutely not a liability. 

15 yard penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct for the insult to the board. Not everyone has to think the same. I watch individual matchups all the time and <gasp> Kyle Williams last year and Star this year were getting knocked backward at the point of attack regularly.  The term space eater should mean you hold the line of scrimmage against two guys consistently and if you aren’t getting doubled you are making plays to push the line backward. Have you ever seen Star push a play into the backfield or force a runner outside?  I truly can’t remember many. His price tag should carry more with it. Teams seem to doubling Oliver now. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

He's an overpaid space eater that is average at his job with no other player on the roster that has the body type to take the pounding he does.

They overpaid because they wanted Dareus out.

He would be getting less snaps if Harrison wasn't hurt. Now he is getting more. Guys with his body type that can occupy blockers are hard to find. He is just an average football player who is being paid like a top 10 talent. Who cares? It's not affecting the team's ability to sign anyone. 

Close the thread. 

[CaptnCoke11]

Space eater type DTs are thing of the past.. You need guys that can can play the run as well as rush the passer.  Star isn’t good at either 

[uticaclub]

While I’m not impressed with his play. Cap room isn’t an issue, so this cap hit is irrelevant. Once we start signing our draft picks he will be cut for cap savings

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I was listening to Joe Buscaglia preview the Bills game this morning on Jerry Sullivan and said the game is a coin flip.  He thinks the Eagles have a good offense that will try to challenge the Bills and run inside.  Not only is that the strength of the Philly OL, but it was a big weakness last week vs a terrible Miami OL.  This is why a nobody like Mark Walton ran for a few big plays - though overall he didn’t put up a ton of numbers.

 

Joe’s main culprit is Star Loutelelei.  He said he has been terrible this year and is not winning matchups very well.  While he never put up stats, he’s not doing a very good job holding his ground either.  His replacement Kyle Peko has been worse.  Miami pushed him around all day resulting in more big plays.  
 

Since Peko and Star were so terrible, the Bills were forced to line up Jordan Phillips who plays on the other side at 1 technique next to Ed Oliver.  
 

This is a pretty big concern to me when the guy you paid $10 million a year is awful at DT and can’t even get on the field a crucial times.  

 

The inside runs could be something to watch as Philly might try to set up for a few play action bombs.  

How about McDermott bring the run stuffing DT they acquired from the Dolphins off the practice squad, Vincent Taylor?

Edited October 24, 2019 by the skycap

[LSHMEAB]

Who?

 

I hear all the chatter about eating space and his teammates love him; that's all good and well. The bottom line is that even guy's who play a similar role make a FEW plays. I was pretty shocked to see him record a clean, solo tackle against the Titans. Probably shouldn't NOTICE a guy making a solo tackle.

 

At any rate, he's here and I suppose he does what he's asked to do. This is most certainly a position they can and hopefully will upgrade going forward.

[GoBills808]

21 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Space eater type DTs are thing of the past.. You need guys that can can play the run as well as rush the passer.  Star isn’t good at either 

Man...Damon Harrison, Malcom Brown, Linval Joseph, Eddie Goldman would definitely disagree with you.

[Dopey]

33 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Space eater type DTs are thing of the past.. You need guys that can can play the run as well as rush the passer.  Star isn’t good at either 

The Bills staff that put together this damn good defense doesn't agree with you on the space eater part. 

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

So we're a Top 5 Overall Defense and a Top 10 run Defense and you want to, what.  What, exactly.  Just curious.

 

 

 

 

[Dopey]

Maybe I'm overreacting to 1 thread, but it took longer than I thought for some to find the replacement to Zay as a whuppin boy. Top 5 d and top 10 vs the run. Without Phillips, who some say is better. Star is still holding his own. By the way, aside from White, the whole d pretty much digressed against the Phins. 1 " bad" game. Talk about overreaction Monday.

[blacklabel]

7 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

So we're a Top 5 Overall Defense and a Top 10 run Defense and you want to, what.  What, exactly.  Just curious.

 

I'mma take a wild guess here and say...whine. They wanna whine. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

So we're a Top 5 Overall Defense and a Top 10 run Defense and you want to, what.  What, exactly.  Just curious.

 

A shutout vs the Dolphins?

[LSHMEAB]

14 minutes ago, {::'KayCeeS::} said:

So we're a Top 5 Overall Defense and a Top 10 run Defense and you want to, what.  What, exactly.  Just curious.

 

 

 

 

Acknowledge that the defense has played extremely well and discuss ways it could be EVEN better?

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

A shutout vs the Dolphins?

We only missed the shutout by 21.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Acknowledge that the defense has played extremely well and discuss ways it could be EVEN better?

 

 

Improving the defensive line would be easier accomplished by focusing on the ends rather than the tackles.

[{::'KayCeeS::}]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Acknowledge that the defense has played extremely well and discuss ways it could be EVEN better?

 

 

 

The whole point of this thread is that Star is a LIABILITY.

 

He's obviously not.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by {::'KayCeeS::}