Is Star Lotulelei A Liability on the DL?

[GG]

It's not like the Eagles didn't have a past history against Star.  Seems to have been a repeat of their last game against him.

 

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Star was far from the only person (and not even the main person) to blame in that play but it was his channel the ball was run through and they kept hitting that inside left zone channel from that point on. Eventually if you are the team's premier run stuffer you gotta take the view that it is your job to get in there make a play and cut off that route. 

 

From The Athletic - "That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room. The defensive tackle, who is in the second year of a five-year, $50 million contract, said he wasn’t frustrated by the way the Eagles ran the ball. When asked to clarify that he, the man paid handsomely to stop the run, was not frustrated by the Eagles trampling his team, Lotulelei seemed offended.

“No,” he said."

Edited October 28, 2019 by GG

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GG said:

It's not like the Eagles didn't have a past history against Star.  Seems to have been a repeat of their last game against him.

 

 

That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room. The defensive tackle, who is in the second year of a five-year, $50 million contract, said he wasn’t frustrated by the way the Eagles ran the ball. When asked to clarify that he, the man paid handsomely to stop the run, was not frustrated by the Eagles trampling his team, Lotulelei seemed offended.

“No,” he said.

Just Collecting his check

[dave mcbride]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

It's not like the Eagles didn't have a past history against Star.  Seems to have been a repeat of their last game against him.

 

 

That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room. The defensive tackle, who is in the second year of a five-year, $50 million contract, said he wasn’t frustrated by the way the Eagles ran the ball. When asked to clarify that he, the man paid handsomely to stop the run, was not frustrated by the Eagles trampling his team, Lotulelei seemed offended.

“No,” he said.

$8 million cap hit if he's cut before next season, but that's less than $10 million cap hit he'd be if he's on the team. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/star-lotulelei-12294/

 

I think that this might be the last year of Star. 

[IgotBILLStopay]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

It's not like the Eagles didn't have a past history against Star.  Seems to have been a repeat of their last game against him.

 

 

From The Athletic - "That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room. The defensive tackle, who is in the second year of a five-year, $50 million contract, said he wasn’t frustrated by the way the Eagles ran the ball. When asked to clarify that he, the man paid handsomely to stop the run, was not frustrated by the Eagles trampling his team, Lotulelei seemed offended.

“No,” he said."

 

nice find.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, GG said:

It's not like the Eagles didn't have a past history against Star.  Seems to have been a repeat of their last game against him.

 

 

From The Athletic - "That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room. The defensive tackle, who is in the second year of a five-year, $50 million contract, said he wasn’t frustrated by the way the Eagles ran the ball. When asked to clarify that he, the man paid handsomely to stop the run, was not frustrated by the Eagles trampling his team, Lotulelei seemed offended.

“No,” he said."

 

Yea it is a pathetic attitude and honestly it doesn't scream process to me..

[GG]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

$8 million cap hit if he's cut before next season, but that's less than $10 million cap hit he'd be if he's on the team. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/star-lotulelei-12294/

 

I think that this might be the last year of Star. 

 

Yup, discussed it earlier in the thread.  Cap hit won't be that big, especially if it's a post-June designation.  Realistically they will probably restructure at a much lower salary and he becomes a role player.

[Cripple Creek]

10 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Yup, discussed it earlier in the thread.  Cap hit won't be that big, especially if it's a post-June designation.  Realistically they will probably restructure at a much lower salary and he becomes a role player.

We could have some fun defining that role.

[GoBills808]

50 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it is a pathetic attitude and honestly it doesn't scream process to me..

Just how he is. Going all the way back to Carolina w/Panthers, people didn't like him because he never showed any fire and played a position that doesn't pop on screen. 

 

He's a known quantity by McD and staff. 

[Dopey]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

C'mon Dopey. 

 

A guy can express frustration "it was a frustrating game all around" or "we had them 3rd and long, we just didn't finish, we've got to look at the tape and get to it" without throwing his teammates under the bus.  As for "smart enough not to play the media's game", if he doesn't know that saying "no" he wasn't frustrated by a big defensive flaw that contributed to our loss, is in fact directly playing into the media's game, he's not that media-smart.

 

I hear ya. He said he's not frustrated. A simple statement like that seemed to get twisted to mean he doesn't care. Can't really twist "no" around too much. Smart call in my mind. Keep the emotions out after a loss and there's not much to expound on. 

A quote from your post: "That concern didn’t reach Lotulelei in the locker room." That doesn't me he doesn't care, he's just not frustrated. So what now, portray the player and coach are not on the same page? That's why less is more in this case to me. 

[Blank Stare]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it is a pathetic attitude and honestly it doesn't scream process to me..

No kidding. Star has never been a vocal guy since he’s been here, but this optically is a lack of accountability to me. They’ll brush it off and say he’s accountable to the team and is a “pro’s pro”. You aren’t frustrated and don’t want to explain why you aren’t frustrated? Great, but that’s pretty shocking and worth and explanation. Drop the ‘tude Star. Everyone is just curious and looking for answers. 

Edited October 28, 2019 by TheProcess

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea it is a pathetic attitude and honestly it doesn't scream process to me..

It's one thing for the media to be pissed that he didn't give them material, but someone here?! He shows frustration and the media pounces on that. Some of you to follow the media like it's the pied piper. You know about his attitude from that little write up?!

Oh, I forgot, it's overreaction Monday. Which began last night, no last week.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Dopey

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Dopey said:

It's one thing for the media to be pissed that he didn't give them material, but someone here?! He shows frustration and the media pounces on that. Some of you to follow the media like it's the pied piper. You know about his attitude from that little write up?!

Oh, I forgot, it's overreaction Monday. Which began last night, no last week.

 

No I just expect my guys to be professional when dealing with the media. When I coached it was regional press with a readership of thousands not millions and I would still be pissed if one of my guys gave that answer. 

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I just expect my guys to be professional when dealing with the media. When I coached it was regional press with a readership of thousands not millions and I would still be pissed if one of my guys gave that answer. 

Skates Lotulelei just collecting checks at this point 

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Star was far from the only person (and not even the main person) to blame in that play but it was his channel the ball was run through and they kept hitting that inside left zone channel from that point on. Eventually if you are the team's premier run stuffer you gotta take the view that it is your job to get in there make a play and cut off that route. 

I'm watching this play and I think we had wrong playcall in on defense, 2nd and 8 passing down...to me that's a called stunt w/Oliver that didn't get communicated properly on a normal pass down. Lotulelei is down blocking to try to take two guys away, he doesn't get moved initially or put on skates or whatever is being claimed here. I think that was just the wrong play call...

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm watching this play and I think we had wrong playcall in on defense, 2nd and 8 passing down...to me that's a called stunt w/Oliver that didn't get communicated properly on a normal pass down. Lotulelei is down blocking to try to take two guys away, he doesn't get moved initially or put on skates or whatever is being claimed here. I think that was just the wrong play call...

the Skates Apologists. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

the Skates Apologists. 

I swear I am not being an apologist here. I seriously don't think Lotulelei is the problem. 

 

Did you see the big completion to Jeffery (one of the turning points for me) in the third when it was still a 4 point game? I think teams have started seeing certain DT combinations Bills are using and taking advantage of the fact that only Lotulelei can stand up to a double team but doesn't have a solid pass rush move, and he's really the only effective 1tech the Bills have right now. Watch how they decide to double Phillips instead of Lotulelei and what happens.

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I swear I am not being an apologist here. I seriously don't think Lotulelei is the problem. 

 

Did you see the big completion to Jeffery (one of the turning points for me) in the third when it was still a 4 point game? I think teams have started seeing certain DT combinations Bills are using and taking advantage of the fact that only Lotulelei can stand up to a double team but doesn't have a solid pass rush move, and he's really the only effective 1tech the Bills have right now. Watch how they decide to double Phillips instead of Lotulelei and what happens.

it isn’t a coincidence that Skates get his most snaps of the season and Philly rips of 218 after not being able to run all season. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm watching this play and I think we had wrong playcall in on defense, 2nd and 8 passing down...to me that's a called stunt w/Oliver that didn't get communicated properly on a normal pass down. Lotulelei is down blocking to try to take two guys away, he doesn't get moved initially or put on skates or whatever is being claimed here. I think that was just the wrong play call...

 

Medermott said that play was a bad fit, which would line up more with your assertion than the ‘blame the DT’ crowd... but what does the coach know? 

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I'm watching this play and I think we had wrong playcall in on defense, 2nd and 8 passing down...to me that's a called stunt w/Oliver that didn't get communicated properly on a normal pass down. Lotulelei is down blocking to try to take two guys away, he doesn't get moved initially or put on skates or whatever is being claimed here. I think that was just the wrong play call...

 

He gets moved. I am sorry there is just no way around it. If you don't think he does we are never going to agree on what is expected of him. He is not the main reason that play happened. But he is eased out of the play. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Medermott said that play was a bad fit, which would line up more with your assertion than the ‘blame the DT’ crowd... but what does the coach know? 

yeah why not make Excuses for his Top UFA Target. Question when have you ever heard McD call out a player?  He surely isn’t going to call our Skates 

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He gets moved. I am sorry there is just no way around it. If you don't think he does we are never going to agree on what is expected of him. He is not the main reason that play happened. But he is eased out of the play. 

I see him blocking down. Moved is what happened to Phillips on the Scott TD. 

 

*EDIT apparently McD said bad playcall...which looks to me is what happened

[GoBills808]

Only highlights but still-

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP2SwXULebg

 

The big run happens at 4:48. To me that is clearly a downblock; immediately turns pads inside his man to engage downhill toward RG. It's textbook. This looks like a called stunt on an anticipated passing down that either Oliver didn't get around quickly enough (or missed the call) or Eagles/Wentz checked into something that would beat it. 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see him blocking down. Moved is what happened to Phillips on the Scott TD. 

 

*EDIT apparently McD said bad playcall...which looks to me is what happened

 

Lots of blame to go around but if you are giving Star a pass on that play you are in confirmation bias territory in my opinion.  

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see him blocking down. Moved is what happened to Phillips on the Scott TD. 

 

*EDIT apparently McD said bad playcall...which looks to me is what happened

 

And I agree his assignment is to block down but he sees the play tries to react and the Olineman just eases him out of the way. 

[billsfan89]

12 hours ago, QCity said:

Star was a train-wreck against the Eagles. The loss of Harrison Phillips is really starting to show. I would expect Beane to bring in another 1-tech before Tuesday's trade deadline.

 

Especially since a space eating DT shouldn't come at a high cost. Billings out of Cincy would make the most sense. Low cost on an expiring deal and fills the need to get bigger and more stout up the middle. 

[GG]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Lots of blame to go around but if you are giving Star a pass on that play you are in confirmation bias territory in my opinion.  

 

And I agree his assignment is to block down but he sees the play tries to react and the Olineman just eases him out of the way. 

Which is consistent with most of his other snaps.  The only time he can move laterally is with a helpful assist from the Guard

[BillsFan17]

So, now its safe to call out probably the weakest link on our defense?

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Lots of blame to go around but if you are giving Star a pass on that play you are in confirmation bias territory in my opinion.  

Do you really not see his path on that play? That is a stunt. He has his shoulders turned inside before engaging. If he was just getting moved his hips would still be squared up.

 

I seriously think you guys are misreading a TON of how this defensive line is supposed to operate. There are a lot of examples just in the highlights of our DEs left 1v1 and not getting home or generating pressure, of Lotulelei taking double teams and the other DT not beating his man, or how limited they are when he comes out on anything other than obvious passing downs w/Peko or whoever...I watched pretty much strictly DTs and imo it's pretty glaringly not on Lotulelei. No bias, just facts. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, GG said:

Which is consistent with most of his other snaps.  The only time he can move laterally is with a helpful assist from the Guard

He's not being asked to move laterally. They need him because he is the only guy who can maintain leverage and take up extra man/space. It's very clear.

 

Watch the first Goedert TD. Lotulelei double teamed and every other defensive lineman is left 1v1 as schemed. Zero pressure.

 

Watch the pass to Jeffrey. They realize they can double Phillips on pass downs w/Lotulelei in and he (Phillips) gets tossed 5 yards backwards. Can't hold ground against double team at all.

 

Watch Scott TD run with Lotulelei not in. Phillips absolutely bullied out of the way. It's very clear Lotulelei is not the singular issue on the line.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Do you really not see his path on that play? That is a stunt. He has his shoulders turned inside before engaging. If he was just getting moved his hips would still be squared up.

 

I seriously think you guys are misreading a TON of how this defensive line is supposed to operate. There are a lot of examples just in the highlights of our DEs left 1v1 and not getting home or generating pressure, of Lotulelei taking double teams and the other DT not beating his man, or how limited they are when he comes out on anything other than obvious passing downs w/Peko or whoever...I watched pretty much strictly DTs and imo it's pretty glaringly not on Lotulelei. No bias, just facts. 

 

I am sorry I think you are one misreading. It is not just on Star. But it is partly on him. 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

He's not being asked to move laterally. They need him because he is the only guy who can maintain leverage and take up extra man/space. It's very clear.

 

Watch the first Goedert TD. Lotulelei double teamed and every other defensive lineman is left 1v1 as schemed. Zero pressure.

 

Watch the pass to Jeffrey. They realize they can double Phillips on pass downs w/Lotulelei in and he (Phillips) gets tossed 5 yards backwards. Can't hold ground against double team at all.

 

Watch Scott TD run with Lotulelei not in. Phillips absolutely bullied out of the way. It's very clear Lotulelei is not the singular issue on the line.

Skates does what to earn 10M a year again?

[GoBills808]

And when he's not in- they can put 1v1 on Peko/Phillips/Oliver and run the ball getting the extra offensive lineman on Edmunds. Happened very clearly on long Jordan Howard run in the 4th quarter w/9:22 left. Lotulelei keeps the backers clean.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Skates does what to earn 10M a year again?

 

He sometimes gets double teamed and is no less effective on those plays than on the ones where he singled. So that's a win. Apparently. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Skates does what to earn 10M a year again?

If that's all you got it's pretty thin

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

And when he's not in- they can put 1v1 on Peko/Phillips/Oliver and run the ball getting the extra offensive lineman on Edmunds. Happened very clearly on long Jordan Howard run in the 4th quarter w/9:22 left. Lotulelei keeps the backers clean.

 

Except he doesn't. 

[MAJBobby]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

He sometimes gets double teamed and is no less effective on those plays than on the ones where he singled. So that's a win. Apparently. 

same non tangible arguments to defend Skates are the same arguments I saw defending Tyrod as well.  

Just now, GoBills808 said:

If that's all you got it's pretty thin

so no defense for Skates. Got it. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Except he doesn't. 

Show me where he doesn't. I've given you my examples. You guys want to blame one guy for the Eagles running the ball all over us, go ahead. But it's not accurate.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Show me where he doesn't. I've given you my examples. You guys want to blame one guy for the Eagles running the ball all over us, go ahead. But it's not accurate.

 

Strawman alert!!!

 

If I have blamed one guy it sure as hell isn't Star. I have said very clearly where I think the biggest problem lies. But Star is not keeping the backers clean. Even when singled. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Strawman alert!!!

 

If I have blamed one guy it sure as hell isn't Star. I have said very clearly where I think the biggest problem lies. But Star is not keeping the backers clean. Even when singled. 

Sorry. The thread is about Lotulelei so I just assumed..I didn't mean to put words in your mouth if that's not what you said. 

 

'Keeping the LBs clean' is just code for not allowing one of the olinemen to get into second level because they're occupied with a double. That's what happened on Agohlor TFL w/Milano. And he usually needs to be doubled because if they leave him 1v1 in pass downs he takes his guy backwards like what happened on Lawson sack in 1st. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Sorry. The thread is about Lotulelei so I just assumed..I didn't mean to put words in your mouth if that's not what you said. 

 

'Keeping the LBs clean' is just code for not allowing one of the olinemen to get into second level because they're occupied with a double. That's what happened on Agohlor TFL w/Milano. And he usually needs to be doubled because if they leave him 1v1 in pass downs he takes his guy backwards like what happened on Lawson sack in 1st. 

 

 

 

I think the biggest problem with the run D is linebacker gap assignment. The biggest difference between weeks 1 to 5 and weeks 6 and 7 has been the performance of Edmunds. He had show some really promising signs of progress early this year.... but the last 2 weeks has been major regression to 2018 form. He is misdiagnosing plays and constantly attacking the wrong gap. The long touchdown run it was Milano that got the wrong gap. That is the biggest issue on the run D and I have said that both weeks. But I don't think Star is playing as solid as you suggest. I think at some point he has to have more of an impact. 

[GG]

52 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Show me where he doesn't. I've given you my examples. You guys want to blame one guy for the Eagles running the ball all over us, go ahead. But it's not accurate.

 

There's a 6+ minute tape that shows Star getting manhandled by a JV Dolphins line a few pages back.  He was single blocked by Seumalo for most pf the game and essentially neutralized. 

 

I have no idea why you think Star's role in this defense is essentially to stand up, engage the blockers and do nothing else.  Because that's his highlight reel this year.