I can only conclude that the lack of PI challenges succeeding is a revolt by the officials

[dave mcbride]

Sean McDermott, I hope you're reading this: never challenge a PI/non-PI call for the rest of the season. I know you succeeded in week one, but literally NOTHING is being overturned now -- even blatantly obvious stuff. It is really unbelievable. 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Well SM has won 1 challenge out of 12, so maybe he shouldn’t challenge anything. ?

 

as someone who hates complaining about officials, it’s really bad this year.  And it slows the game down in painful ways.  It’s really hard to get non fans into it and I’m trying!

[Warcodered]

Or at least one specific ref.

[Boatdrinks]

It’s obvious to me, and should be to anyone paying attention. The league caved in due to backlash and embarrassment , but honestly reviewing / overturning non PI calls is terrible for the game. Imagine if they could challenge offensive holding ? It’d be ridiculous. It’s like that stupid blue line challenge thing in hockey disallowing goals that happen a half minute later. Any NFL fan knows that lots of ( technically) PI things go uncalled, and most would prefer to “ let them play” except for egregious infractions. The league has essentially sent the message to not waste your time or your timeout unless it’s a huge missed call and probably only in the playoffs or playoff berth deciding situation. Edit : more to your point in the thread title , I do not believe it’s any kind of revolt by the officials. Rather, more of a concerted effort with the league being on board. It’s meant as a fail safe in a game deciding situation during the postseason and that’s about it. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Boatdrinks

[TroutDog]

I agree @dave mcbride. It’s silly that it was ever implemented at this point and it needs to be scrapped as the refs are absolutely pushing back against being questioned. 

[Buffalo Junction]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

It’s obvious to me, and should be to anyone paying attention. The league caved in due to backlash and embarrassment , but honestly reviewing / overturning non calls is terrible for the game. It’s like that stupid blue line challenge thing in hockey disallowing goals that happen a half minute later. Any NFL fan knows that lots of ( technically) PI things go uncalled, and most would prefer to “ let them play” except for egregious infractions. The league has essentially sent the message to not wast your time or your timeout unless it’s a huge missed call and probably only in the playoffs or playoff berth deciding situation. 

Yup. Basically, it exists for situations like the Saints game or the Fail Mary. 

[Jobot]

The NFL is way too accepting of rule changes off a whim.  Majority of the new rule changes just make the game more difficult to watch.

Side note, maybe related, but are refs still not full time employees/are they pissed about this?

[Buffalo Junction]

1 minute ago, TroutDog said:

I agree @dave mcbride. It’s silly that it was ever implemented at this point and it needs to be scrapped as the refs are absolutely pushing back against being questioned. 

I’m waiting for a QB to start with The Longest Yard nut shots

[Southern Bills Fan]

They only put the rule in to pacify a whining fan base (Saints). They never had any intention of enforcing it. 

[NoSaint]

Just now, TroutDog said:

I agree @dave mcbride. It’s silly that it was ever implemented at this point and it needs to be scrapped as the refs are absolutely pushing back against being questioned. 

 I think they been told to stick with the call unless horribly egregious at a major moment but unfortunately if you don’t know the standard as a coach it’s costing you timeouts/challenges to learn and who wants to risk that (especially at a big moment).

 

it feels like you just have to let the booth make the call inside 2 mins and ignore the rest 

[Jobot]

Just now, Southern Bills Fan said:

They only put the rule in to pacify a whining fan base (Saints). They never had any intention of enforcing it. 

 

Saints fans are the biggest bunch of babies complaining about that call. Completely ignored all the awful calls that went their way that game.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Jobot said:

The NFL is way too accepting of rule changes off a whim.  Majority of the new rule changes just make the game more difficult to watch.

Side note, maybe related, but are refs still not full time employees/are they pissed about this?

They just signed a new agreement and most have lucrative full time jobs elsewhere so I’d guess they are just fine with it. 

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

It’s obvious to me, and should be to anyone paying attention. The league caved in due to backlash and embarrassment , but honestly reviewing / overturning non PI calls is terrible for the game. Imagine if they could challenge offensive holding ? It’d be ridiculous. It’s like that stupid blue line challenge thing in hockey disallowing goals that happen a half minute later. Any NFL fan knows that lots of ( technically) PI things go uncalled, and most would prefer to “ let them play” except for egregious infractions. The league has essentially sent the message to not waste your time or your timeout unless it’s a huge missed call and probably only in the playoffs or playoff berth deciding situation. 

That's why the idea was to have a limited number of challenges. I mean it's hard to know if it would work well when a part of the system is refusing to operate.

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Jobot said:

 

Saints fans are the biggest bunch of babies complaining about that call. Completely ignored all the awful calls that went their way that game.

While the call was awful, their team could have stopped the Rams from scoring and forcing overtime . The Saints also had the ball in the OT and didn’t score iirc so the non call didn’t exactly end the game. 

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

That's why the idea was to have a limited number of challenges. I mean it's hard to know if it would work well when a part of the system is refusing to operate.

Challenges have always been limited. Scrutinizing an area of the game where rules violations often go uncalled isn’t a can of worms the NFL really wanted to open. They just wanted a mechanism to reverse a terrible call or non call in a high profile situation that leaves them with egg on their face. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Great write-up on this very issue this morning in Peter King's column:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/10/14/nfl-week-6-devlin-hodges-fmia-peter-king/

"The NFL is Blowing This. I hate talking about officiating. I hate writing about officiating. Fans don’t wake up Sunday morning in Tacoma to watch football and wonder if incidental contact on a Russell Wilson-to-Tyler Lockett pass downfield is enough to constitute interference. They wake up to say, Tough game for Russell today in Cleveland. Hope he can do enough to win. But to me, enough’s enough with this new pass-interference replay rule. Thursday night was the death blow for it"

 

Read the full section he writes about this problem--but suffice to say if one of the media types (as well respected in league circles as King is) is turning the full weight of their soapboxes against the league on this, it probably won't be long before we see substantive changes one way or the other in response, imho.

[blacklabel]

I think they fear overturning too many calls because they feel like it'll empower coaches/teams to call more challenges and eventually push for additional challenges to be added as well as more rule changes/tweaks. It seems as though they believe if they just stick with what they called, coaches will be dissuaded from throwing the red flag. Seems like they want coaches to think, "Well, they're not going to change it anyway, so why waste my time-out?"

 

Big dumb Al Riveron has a lot to do with it as well. He's a complete schmuck. Officiating makes this game more and more difficult to enjoy every season. If they don't realize that and do something to fix it soon, it's gonna end up going down in history as an element that eventually helped killed the game. Jackwagons, all of 'em. They have too much of an impact on the game and when things come down to the wire between two teams there seems to be two schools of thought in officiating: "let 'em play" where they call virtually nothing, or they call every little thing (in some cases calling BS penalties that you know they've ignored all game). 

 

I'm in whichever group thinks the entire rulebook needs to be shredded and rewritten from the ground up. Only way to fix all their convoluted crapola. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by blacklabel

[Cripple Creek]

Look at overturned PI weeks 1-3 and compare it to weeks 4-6.  The refs haven't revolted. The league told them to stop the reversals.

[Boatdrinks]

One would think King holds some sway, but in this case I think he’ll be ignored. He’s pointing out what seems obvious, but it’s actaully working the way the league wants it. That’s because they want it to be available, but rarely if ever used. They can’t really come out and say that, but the message being sent is clear. Coaches have been testing it, and the response has been universal :  Don’t use this unless it’s the playoffs or similar and the game is literally on the line. It will turn the game into a joke if used even sporadically in just about every NFL contest. NFL rules like offensive holding or defensive PI are enforced intermittently and inconsistently just to keep teams “ honest”. The game would be unwatchable if they were always enforced to the letter. Although, with the preponderance of yellow flags in most games lately I have to wonder. 

[Gugny]

24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well SM has won 1 challenge out of 12, so maybe he shouldn’t challenge anything. ?

 

as someone who hates complaining about officials, it’s really bad this year.  And it slows the game down in painful ways.  It’s really hard to get non fans into it and I’m trying!

 

Great point.  McDermott should just leave the red flag in his office.

[TwistofFate]

I can only conclude thats its the NFLs snub to the owners who want legit officiating in leiu of fixed NFL narratives.

 

Its appalling to see lack of reversals with clear evidence in many instances. 

[White Linen]

Whatever it is, it's pretty embarrassing for the league. 

 

To me, the game is less enjoyable to watch then ever before.  

[BillsVet]

How much of this has to be the league's officials (including Riveron) protecting their own and refusing to overturn something that is subjective?

 

Edit: Speaking of challenges, McD is 1-12 during his tenure as Bills HC. 

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/McDeSe0.htm

 

Something's amiss.

Edited October 14, 2019 by BillsVet

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

it it still subjective in a bang band full speed review.  

 

It has to be a hit with enough of duration [pause] for it to be clearly a flag.    Otherwise IMO you are gambling on how a ref saw it. 

 

The playoff game was HIT, pause, ball gets to the WR.   Clear and obvious except to the Refs on the field!!! 

[dave mcbride]

14 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

Look at overturned PI weeks 1-3 and compare it to weeks 4-6.  The refs haven't revolted. The league told them to stop the reversals.

I dunno. Riveron is the guy making the decisions. It maybe that Goodell is supportive, but it starts with Riveron. Always remember that the owners - Goodell's bosses - voted for this rule! I think they should simply get rid of the option given how badly this is playing out. That won't happen until next year at the earliest, of course. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by dave mcbride

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

I can only conclude thats its the NFLs snub to the owners who want legit officiating in leiu of fixed NFL narratives.

 

Its appalling to see lack of reversals with clear evidence in many instances. 

Maybe, but again the game would be completely different ( and probably a lot less popular) if OPI were strictly enforced in every instance. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I agree it certainly seems to be the case.  But why only with PI calls, why not say "Nope everything we called is correct, ruling on the field stands" 100% of the time. 

 

Too long ago now to recall, i nthe first couple of seasons of replay, were there less calls over turned? 

[BuffaninSarasota]

I am convinced college football officiating is better (.....and the game is easier to watch) compared to the NFL.

[Boatdrinks]

7 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

I agree it certainly seems to be the case.  But why only with PI calls, why not say "Nope everything we called is correct, ruling on the field stands" 100% of the time. 

 

Too long ago now to recall, i nthe first couple of seasons of replay, were there less calls over turned? 

Because only a limited number of things are challengeable under the rules. PI is really the first time they have allowed challenges to a “ judgment call” and then only reluctantly. Changing the calls could have huge effects on the game, because the rules aren’t enforced to the letter. Pandora’s box would be opened. Those other calls such as spots, catches are really not judgment calls, just video evidence is used because of the speed of the game. Using video evidence when things are seen but let go due to judgment is another story. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Boatdrinks

[Jobot]

8 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

I am convinced college football officiating is better (.....and the game is easier to watch) compared to the NFL.

 

Idk, it's wayy too often that I see a play get challenged in a college game, very clearly know myself what the call should be, and at the same time I also assume that the college ref will get it wrong... and they often do.

[MJS]

The one against the Pats should have been overturned for sure, but most of the challenges I have seen are rightfully allowed to stand. Coaches should be saving it for when it's obvious.

 

Although, maybe it's a tactic to slow down the game and give your players a breather while the officials are reviewing the play?

[row_33]

10 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

I am convinced college football officiating is better (.....and the game is easier to watch) compared to the NFL.

the pros are far quicker and way more athletic, so it is harder to officiate the NFL

 

replay once again hasn’t solved all the problems? Really????!

 

 

 

[eanyills]

24 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

I can only conclude thats its the NFLs snub to the owners who want legit officiating in leiu of fixed NFL narratives.

 

Its appalling to see lack of reversals with clear evidence in many instances. 

 

Goodell and the administrative officers of the league are essentially employers of the owners. They work on their behalf. This is what the owners want, to some degree. I think Boatdrinks has it absolutely right in their assessment.

 

If the “NFL” ever snubbed the majority wish of the owners, the league office would be wiped clean the following season. Make no mistake who sets the tone for the rules and policies the league carries out.

Edited October 14, 2019 by eanyills

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 minutes ago, Jobot said:

 

Idk, it's wayy too often that I see a play get challenged in a college game, very clearly know myself what the call should be, and at the same time I also assume that the college ref will get it wrong... and they often do.

 

I will say one thing about the college replay system, it seems to take much less time to get a ruling, game is n't slowed down as much.

[Punching Bag]

52 minutes ago, Jobot said:

The NFL is way too accepting of rule changes off a whim.  Majority of the new rule changes just make the game more difficult to watch.

Side note, maybe related, but are refs still not full time employees/are they pissed about this?

 

Most of them have full time jobs preventing this.  Some are quite high up jobs.

 

At some point in future a referee will be identified as one who screwed up call costing a team a playoff spot or playoff game.

Then a fan of that team who is VIP in company doing business with company referee works for decides to not to business with company due to judgement of official.

This will certainly stir a hornet's nest about officials having a primary job.

 

This happened at one job. An employee was identified as leader of protest and company he was protesting was customer of ours.

He was told to issue an official apology and refused and was let go for conflict of interest.

[John Gianelli]

Here's a radical solution that would make every game much more watchable, and provide some justice in the long run.

 

Eliminate all reviews during the game. 

 

So on any particular bad call the fans of Team A will be angry, while the fans of Team B will be relieved. But the game is sped up signficantly. No more interminable waiting to see if a call is overturned.

 

Where does the justice come in? At the end of the season, give significant compensatory draft picks to the teams that were screwed the most by bad calls. The system is already in place for it, because the league rates officials at the end of the year. Those who miss the most calls are dismissed. The best officials are rewarded with the chance to officiate playoff games and the Super Bowl. So when the league does the rating, it can keep a tally of which teams had the most calls missed against them. You would weight the calls, giving more weight to calls that occurred: a) in the last two minutes of a game; b) on scoring plays; c) on go-ahead or game-winning calls; d) during the playoffs. If I remember correctly, the missed call against the Rams' Nickell Robey-Coleman was in the last two minutes, and was during a playoff game. So it would be weighted more than a missed out-of-bounds call on the opening drive in a Bengals-Dolphins regular season game.

 

When all the games have been graded, tally up the points.

 

The team that was the recipient of the most bad calls gets a compensatory first round draft pick, the team with the second-most gets a second round draft pick, etc. Once you get past the seventh team, tough luck.

 

You might even find out that over the course of a season the bad calls tend to even out among the teams. In that case, give every team a compensatory first round pick except the Patriots. 

 

 

 

  

Edited October 14, 2019 by John Gianelli

[CaptnCoke11]

39 minutes ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

I am convinced college football officiating is better (.....and the game is easier to watch) compared to the NFL.

I do prefer college football to pros but one big fault with college football is the games take up to 4 hours 

[Mark Vader]

32 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

I do prefer college football to pros but one big fault with college football is the games take up to 4 hours 

So? You got something better to do?

 

The longer a football game goes, the better. I wish the NFL never sped up the game. It was fine the way it was.

[dave mcbride]

41 minutes ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

I do prefer college football to pros but one big fault with college football is the games take up to 4 hours 

Halftime shows. Marching bands.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Sean McDermott, I hope you're reading this: never challenge a PI/non-PI call for the rest of the season. I know you succeeded in week one, but literally NOTHING is being overturned now -- even blatantly obvious stuff. It is really unbelievable. 

 

 

I think we all misunderstood what the rule change was about.   They are not reviewing pass interference to see if it could have been called differently, or even should have been called differently.   They are only overturning calls where the official missed the play the way it was missed in the Saints' playoff game.   That is, they are only going to overturn the call if the defender deliberately interfered with the receiver knowing he was interfering, and the interference clearly made the receiver unable to make the catch.

 

That play you show does not meet the standard, at all.   The defender didn't take out the receiver - it was just really tight coverage.   Yes, it absolutely was pass interference and should have been called on the field, but they aren't going to overturn it just because the ref probably should have called it the other way.   

 

The refs clearly are allowing more contact without calling interference, and that's a good thing - the game is going back to where it was five or ten years ago, before they screwed up the catch rule and started calling every touch pass interference.   It's better this way.   But on replay, when they see that kind of contact, they aren't going to overturn the refs call.   It has to be much worse than on this video before they'll overturn anything.

 

It's easy for the coaches.   All they have to do is ask themselves if the play looked like Nickel-Robey's hit in the Saints game.  If it was outrageous like that, throw the flag.   Otherwise, you have to live with it.

 

I don't think the review rule is written the way I describe it, but that's clearly how they're interpreting it.  

[TigerJ]

There must be some referee in the pro game with some integrity.  Hopefully the league will can Al Riveron after the season and replace him with somebody that has at least a little integrity.