Zay Jones traded to Raiders for 5th rounder

[The Dean]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Foster is the next one that you wonder about. Duke didn’t just go from PS to roster. He got the second most targets of the WRs.

 

He leapt over McKenzie, Foster and Roberts albeit Foster is hurt.

 

Still open question whether Foster has stuck with the process or if he is the next target to be upgraded. 

 

 

Good question re: Foster. From what I understand he hasn't been healthy yet this season, but perhaps that's just smoke (not that Smoke). Even though he isn't a complete WR, Josh and he did seem to establish a connection last year. Hard to believe he fell that dramatically if he is healthy, and working to get better. But anything is possible, I guess.

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, eball said:

 

You must be pissed a lot.  Draft picks are a crap shoot -- even first rounders.  McD/Beane have done an excellent job of drafting since arriving in Buffalo.  No team hits on all picks.

 

Zay Jones isn't "awful" -- he just didn't develop into the reliable option they envisioned.  Getting a 5th back after two and a half seasons isn't 

 

I think there is a chance Jones is out of the league by the start of next season. 

[eball]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a chance Jones is out of the league by the start of next season. 

 

If that's true I think there's more to it than just his play (i.e., mental).

[GunnerBill]

Just now, eball said:

 

If that's true I think there's more to it than just his play (i.e., mental).

 

No I think just based on play. I think the Raiders can use him now, their depth is thin, but they will want to upgrade in the offseason so unless Zay can put something more impressive on tape he will be on the bubble again. 

[LB3]

36 minutes ago, The Dean said:

 

Well you were wrong about your called shot. You knew you might be. So just admit you were wrong about that. That's all I'm saying. 

 

Some of the content in your post was quite good (though nothing that revelatory). Like I said, a little humble/modest post about how you had so much right, but were WRONG with your prediction might have served you better. Just sayin.

Like the guy who calls nothing but net in a game of HORSE and then after he banks it in he expects you to know he meant just make it. 

 

"Look bro. Obviously that shot still counts cus it went in."

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

Without reading 18 pages, are the posters like @JoPar_v2 @LSHMEAB & @LOVEMESOMEBILLS hiding right now or are they owning up to Zay not being the "established NFL WR" some on here believe he was?

 

I can't believe we got a 5th for him!

 

Even if it's for 2021. Great job Beane!

Gruden also traded a 5th for AJ Mccarron who he then cut. Not sure he values those later picks like the Bills do. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

 

He can't even catch the ball when he is wide open :(

Perhaps, but he sure as f*** needs to try to keep the defensive back from making the interception.  Lousy decision making on Jones’ part.  Pretend the defender is a sheet of PPG’s finest shatter resistant.

[Mat68]

Zay is a west coast wr.  Imo he will do well in Oak.  Carr has one of the lowest air yards.  Zay does his best work over the middle/intermediate.  Regardless, no matter what happens in Oak the fit isnt there with Buffalo.  When he was drafted Buffalo was running a West Coast offense so his skill set matched the offense.  Having a big body wr like Williams is a nice change up.  The Whaley term, when hes covered hes open. 

[Big C]

28 minutes ago, eball said:

 

If that's true I think there's more to it than just his play (i.e., mental).

 

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I think just based on play. I think the Raiders can use him now, their depth is thin, but they will want to upgrade in the offseason so unless Zay can put something more impressive on tape he will be on the bubble again. 

 

There must be some correlation from his head to his play. The guy dropped six out of 164 passes his last year of college. Something has changed. Unless eball means mental in, like, an AB way.

 

He was never going to be a top guy, but he was supposed to be a guy that could find the hole in a zone and move the chains, make contested catches, etc. His scouting profiles all said "strong hands catcher," "physical," "can get YAC," "large catch radius" and so on. We haven't seen any of that. His first two years he wasn't surrounded with good talent, sure, but when given the opportunity he still hasn't proven himself trustworthy at his main job which is to catch the ball.

[SteveFreeman22]

16 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

A 5th for Zay is pretty good but in retrospect, the 5th is a terrible return on a player that the team traded up to get, bypassing JuJu Shuster Smith.  If McDermott made that call then damn....terrible waste of a draft pick 

you can say that about almost any pick on most team every year, if you always play the woulda, coulda should of game, then you're never, ever going to be happy. I get it, you can look back at every draft and say, man,they should have took so and so. go back in just bills history, you win some, you lose some, Thurman was the 40th pick! and they didn't give up anything to sign duke and if he turns out to be better than zay, who cares about a wasted pick, they're still a better team.

[Alphadawg7]

45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think there is a chance Jones is out of the league by the start of next season. 

 

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I think just based on play. I think the Raiders can use him now, their depth is thin, but they will want to upgrade in the offseason so unless Zay can put something more impressive on tape he will be on the bubble again. 

 

Yeah I totally agree.  I honestly think he doesn't have the mental toughness to sustain a long career in the NFL.  If he cant change that, he won't be getting many more chances.  Hopefully the change of scenery helps Zay in that department.

 

Maybe the drop as a rookie in week 2 got in his head just enough to linger which led to some other drops and mental lapses that just steam rolled into such a bad rookie season.  Which then was followed by the embarrassing off field incident...and that all just set a tone of him just being in his head so much worried about messing up again that it just kept impacting his game day performances.

 

End of day, his best chance at an NFL is a change of scenery to see if he can get that part of his game right.  If not, I think he will be looking at being buried on a roster or like you said, out of the league soon.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

16 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

A 5th for Zay is pretty good but in retrospect, the 5th is a terrible return on a player that the team traded up to get, bypassing JuJu Shuster Smith.  If McDermott made that call then damn....terrible waste of a draft pick 

 

Sure. But take comfort in this, McDermott is the kind of guy that will file away the This event and all supporting details. And then in the off-season go back and re-examine how this happened and how to draft better in the future.

 

What things they saw right, what they saw wrong.  Input that they should have considered more and what they should have considered less. 

 

I’m positive they will try to understand how they missed on a second rounder and make real effort to improve the process.  

[K-9]

44 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Gruden also traded a 5th for AJ Mccarron who he then cut. Not sure he values those later picks like the Bills do. 

“AJ wasn’t who we thought he was.” 
 

That’s as damning a statement by a GM about a player as I’ve ever heard. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

36 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Zay is a west coast wr.

He is now!  ?

[Reader]

22 minutes ago, Big C said:

 

 

There must be some correlation from his head to his play. The guy dropped six out of 164 passes his last year of college. Something has changed. Unless eball means mental in, like, an AB way.

 

He was never going to be a top guy, but he was supposed to be a guy that could find the hole in a zone and move the chains, make contested catches, etc. His scouting profiles all said "strong hands catcher," "physical," "can get YAC," "large catch radius" and so on. We haven't seen any of that. His first two years he wasn't surrounded with good talent, sure, but when given the opportunity he still hasn't proven himself trustworthy at his main job which is to catch the ball.

 

I think this is possibly what is most frustrating with Zay and other players like him. The potential is there and it has been seen previously. Yet, despite this it has yet to translate. I hope it works out for Zay, he seems like he has been nothing short of a great teammate and likeable kid.

[RyanC883]

well, at least if the Bills thought they missed on a pick, they got something for him other than cutting him.  

 

I think he will do well in Oakland.  He's not bad.  He's a serviceable WR2 in a different offensive scheme.  He had 7 TD's last year.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

“AJ wasn’t who we thought he was.” 
 

That’s as damning a statement by a GM about a player as I’ve ever heard. 

More damning against the GM than the player in question.  What were you doing, reading the back of McCaron’s football cards?

[Alphadawg7]

Question:  Why are people still complaining about missing on Zay over some other prospects that were drafted after?  In not only the history of the NFL, but in the history of ALL sports, no GM has even been 100% on their picks.  No GM has hit on all their first and 2nd round picks.  No GM is even close to being 100%.  

 

In the draft we missed on Zay, we also landed Tre, Dawkins, and Milano.  To land 3 critical starters playing at high levels is a massive homerun for any GM.  The last 2 years since then they have also had pretty excellent drafts too.

 

Yet all I see is people whining about missing on Zay using convenient things they know today that they didnt know then.  There were no threads where people were screaming for guys like Kupp, Godwin, Kamara, etc.  Most posters complaining now didnt even know who some of those guys were on draft night.  Sure there were a few that liked a couple of those people, but on draft night the only other WR people were really talking about was JuJu and even he didn't have an overwhelming amount of supporters.  

 

End of the day, our regime has done a great job in the draft, and our team is literally 4-1 right now because of how well they have drafted.  In fact, someone could make an argument that in the 2 years Beane has been running our draft, we have overall drafted better than any other team in the league and at the very least top 3.  

 

People need to let it go about Zay being a whiff...it happens to every single GM in history.  Bill Walsh trade up for JJ Stokes calling him the next Jerry Rice.  

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Question:  Why are people still complaining about missing on Zay over some other prospects that were drafted after?  In not only the history of the NFL, but in the history of ALL sports, no GM has even been 100% on their picks.  No GM has hit on all their first and 2nd round picks.  No GM is even close to being 100%.  

 

In the draft we missed on Zay, we also landed Tre, Dawkins, and Milano.  To land 3 critical starters playing at high levels is a massive homerun for any GM.  The last 2 years since then they have also had pretty excellent drafts too.

 

Yet all I see is people whining about missing on Zay using convenient things they know today that they didnt know then.  There were no threads where people were screaming for guys like Kupp, Godwin, Kamara, etc.  Most posters complaining now didnt even know who some of those guys were on draft night.  Sure there were a few that liked a couple of those people, but on draft night the only other WR people were really talking about was JuJu and even he didn't have an overwhelming amount of supporters.  

 

End of the day, our regime has done a great job in the draft, and our team is literally 4-1 right now because of how well they have drafted.  In fact, someone could make an argument that in the 2 years Beane has been running our draft, we have overall drafted better than any other team in the league and at the very least top 3.  

 

People need to let it go about Zay being a whiff...it happens to every single GM in history.  Bill Walsh trade up for JJ Stokes calling him the next Jerry Rice.  

 

I forgot which GM it was (retired now) but he said in a radio interview that if you find 3 starters in a draft then you had a successful draft.

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

More damning against the GM than the player in question.  What were you doing, reading the back of McCaron’s football cards?

Nope. Beane wasn’t referring to his playing ability, he was referring to McCarron’s phoniness as a team first kind of guy. 

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I forgot which GM it was (retired now) but he said in a radio interview that if you find 3 starters in a draft then you had a successful draft.

 

Yup, and considering 2 of the 3 are playing at Pro Bowl levels in Tre and Milano, thats an even more successful draft.  Not to mention, that draft helped us land BOTH Allen and Edmunds the next year who one is an ascending young QB and the other is already also ascending but playing near a Pro Bowl level already too in Edmunds.  

 

Further more, that 2017 draft also helped us land Oliver.  Having 2 first rounders in 2018 and all the extra picks Beane accumulated prevented us from having to trade a future first rounder to try and land Edmunds after we took Allen.  

 

People don't realize how impactful and the domino affect of that trade down in 2017 was to landing all 3 of Tre, Edmunds, and Oliver.  Today, we are fielding an elite defense because of that and still have an ascending offense with a high potential and high ceiling QB to build around.  

Edited October 8, 2019 by Alphadawg7

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Yeah never much of a deep ball guy. I thought he could handle a Bob Woods role, but that’s the Raiders problem now. And even though I defended him vehemently for a long while, I don’t care if he averages 300 yds a game for the raiders now. It was time to move on. Maybe his issues were exacerbated by a bad scheme fit or chemistry with the QB. Don’t know. 

 

Foster is the next one that you wonder about. Duke didn’t just go from PS to roster. He got the second most targets of the WRs.

 

He leapt over McKenzie, Foster and Roberts albeit Foster is hurt.

 

Still open question whether Foster has stuck with the process or if he is the next target to be upgraded. 

 

I look at mckenzie like... a lot of his plays are gadgets.  And thats fine.  Gadget players are helpful to jumpstart an offense, and he's made a lot of plays for us.  

 

Roberts is a returner first so he's basically special teams only with some looks here and there on O.  

 

Foster really is the one who... you hope can take another step.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yup, and considering 2 of the 3 are playing at Pro Bowl levels in Tre and Milano, thats an even more successful draft.  Not to mention, that draft helped us land BOTH Allen and Edmunds the next year who one is an ascending young QB and the other is already also ascending but playing near a Pro Bowl level already too in Edmunds.  

 

I finally got to see Edmunds live and man is he impressive to see on the field.  He stands above everyone on defense.  You'll see one helmet sticking up above everyone else's and it's got dreadlocks hanging down.  He moves so well for someone that size...I loved watching him.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

Nope. Beane wasn’t referring to his playing ability, he was referring to McCarron’s phoniness as a team first kind of guy. 

Oh!  I attributed the remark coming from the Oakland GM, and that triumvirate (coach-GM-owner) strikes me as barely above Curly, Larry, and Moe.  My apologies.

[teef]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I finally got to see Edmunds live and man is he impressive to see on the field.  He stands above everyone on defense.  You'll see one helmet sticking up above everyone else's and it's got dreadlocks hanging down.  He moves so well for someone that size...I loved watching him.  

Keep it in your pants. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

I look at mckenzie like... a lot of his plays are gadgets.  And thats fine.  Gadget players are helpful to jumpstart an offense, and he's made a lot of plays for us.  

 

Roberts is a returner first so he's basically special teams only with some looks here and there on O.  

 

Foster really is the one who... you hope can take another step.

 

Agree with you on all all of this 

 

On Roberts though, I’d love to see him more involved in the offense. He’s probably the closest to elite open field runner on the team. Like the way the pats used Patterson. 

 

That designed run play to him was exceptionally well executed. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I finally got to see Edmunds live and man is he impressive to see on the field.  He stands above everyone on defense.  You'll see one helmet sticking up above everyone else's and it's got dreadlocks hanging down.  He moves so well for someone that size...I loved watching him.  

 

Thats awesome man!  Yeah, it was so crazy to see how big he was when he was hitting a beast in Henry...not many guys make Henry look smaller.

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Oh!  I attributed the remark coming from the Oakland GM, and that triumvirate (coach-GM-owner) strikes me as barely above Curly, Larry, and Moe.  My apologies.

No apologies necessary.

[John from Riverside]

7 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats awesome man!  Yeah, it was so crazy to see how big he was when he was hitting a beast in Henry...not many guys make Henry look smaller.

Still very young to.....only going to get better

 

Beane is killing it

[Gray Beard]

Has this been discussed? I couldn’t find it, but I didn’t look too hard. 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2019/10/zay-jones-father-believes-son-has-real-qb-now-following-trade-from-buffalo-bills.html

 

 

Slamming Josh on his way out of town

[Royale with Cheese]

20 minutes ago, teef said:

Keep it in your pants. 

 

No

[Chandler#81]

16 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

I'm sure his parents will have a lot to say when he continues to suck in Oakland and ends up running around naked again.

Anybody hear from Mom? I figured she’d be here kickin’ some azz.

Come to think of it, any parting shots from Zay? Cleaning out locker pics? Stiffing his landlord? Running naked on Chippewa? ANYTHING? 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Anybody hear from Mom? I figured she’d be here kickin’ some azz.

Come to think of it, any parting shots from Zay? Cleaning out locker pics? Stiffing his landlord? Running naked on Chippewa? ANYTHING? 

 

I keep waiting for Jesus to chime in.  After all, Zay DOES fight for him.

[The Dean]

10 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

Has this been discussed? I couldn’t find it, but I didn’t look too hard. 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/2019/10/zay-jones-father-believes-son-has-real-qb-now-following-trade-from-buffalo-bills.html

 

 

Slamming Josh on his way out of town

 

Yes, it was discussed earlier in the thread. Until this thread I never knew Zay's father was ever a twitter weirdo. I'm so happy I miss most of this crap.

[MAJBobby]

4 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

 

2 pages on it?  kind of a joke of a community

 

Here is another one, this one seems to be the most active out of the Raider boards

 

https://raiderforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15793&view=unread&sid=e8d0b0022fb28b911d2cff53b48ce677#unread

 

"I live in upstate NY and a lot of the bills fans here are pissed about it. he isnt amazing but has upside and we didnt give up *****"

 

I wonder who are these Bills fans that are supposedly pissed about this trade?

Edited October 8, 2019 by MAJBobby

[whatdrought]

4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Here is another one, this one seems to be the most active out of the Raider boards

 

https://raiderforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15793&view=unread&sid=e8d0b0022fb28b911d2cff53b48ce677#unread

 

"I live in upstate NY and a lot of the bills fans here are pissed about it. he isnt amazing but has upside and we didnt give up *****"

 

I wonder who are these Bills fans that are supposedly pissed about this trade?

 

Fans who watch a couple games a year and see "second round pick traded for 5th round pick."

[Livinginthepast]

I didn't pay attention enough to Zay in the preseason to judge if he was decent. But his body of work in the last two regular seasons has been a huge disappointment for his level of pick. I was pretty angry though that Duke had a great preseason and still was disrespected and didn't make the cut. That is what bugged me about the way this regime seemed to favor Zay for no good reason. Results on the field should be everything and Zay seemed to get a free pass. Meanwhile you had a receiver in Duke who had proved himself in the CFL in Edmonton where a chunk of the season is played in very difficult cold conditions (ice and snow) but that somehow wasn't enough for the Bills.  When combined with his great preseason, Duke should have made the team and Zay should have been either traded or cut  before the season started.  In addition, Zay's mental breakdown in 2018 may have really been a much bigger factor in his inability to reach his potential.  I'm not sure if the Bills were afraid to move on from Zay after last season because they did not want to be seen as being insensitive to mental illness.

[John from Riverside]

I look back at those deep throws to Zay from Josh......

 

I could totally be wrong...but did Josh trust Zay to actually fight for that ball if it was contested?

 

Yes...they could have been just poor throws...but why do deep balls to Robert Foster get thrown on the money and the ones to Zay have to be 5 yards out in front of him

 

Something just does not add up there

[stevewin]

Haven't read this whole thread not sure how much it's been mentioned - I know some people think a 5th two years out is low compensation, but think the fact that it's a 5th rounder in and of itself is significant - it plays into one of Beane's main strategies to have meaningful draft pick capital to be able to make moves.  Don't think it bothers him it is two years out, since he is planning long term - and he can make more use of a 5th in two years to make potential moves than a 6th or 7th next year. 

[Guest K-GunJimKelly12]

17 minutes ago, stevewin said:

Haven't read this whole thread not sure how much it's been mentioned - I know some people think a 5th two years out is low compensation, but think the fact that it's a 5th rounder in and of itself is significant - it plays into one of Beane's main strategies to have meaningful draft pick capital to be able to make moves.  Don't think it bothers him it is two years out, since he is planning long term - and he can make more use of a 5th in two years to make potential moves than a 6th or 7th next year. 

I agree.  Also, good GM's turn 5th's into 4th's by trading the 5th in the current draft for a 4th in the following one.  When you are able to build depth throughout the roster and haven't mismanaged the cap, you can trade those picks higher future picks because you don't have too many holes to fill.  Beane has built this roster very well and has a ton of flexibility to keep and enhance the depth on the roster for a long time to come.