Josh Allen in concussion protocol: Update cleared 10/5

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

In one of the clips of Josh today, he is rolling out slowly, they roll a giant blue plastic ball at him, he has to hop up over and out of the way of the ball, (a very simple move) then throw. Don’t think they would be doing that if they had any worry whatsoever about his head. 
 

 

 

Um, no, the drill isn't to hop over the ball.  In the first clip, he actually starts to try which is the wrong reaction.  It's a footwork drill, and the right reaction is to use normal QB footwork and adjust out of the way.  They're trying to train the "hop over" reaction out of him and help him retain proper footwork in  a muddy pocket.

 

I kind of agree that isn't a "worried about his haid" drill but it's also all about the independent neurologist.

 

8 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

I had to do a search on a "dirty martini" and have to admit that it is not what I was hoping it might be.

 

Does not appeal to me at all.

[jimmy10]

10 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

If the limitation is no contact and contact is never part of a QB's practice anyways, then what is the restriction?  I suspect he's a full participant with a meaningless restriction.

 

Marcel what’s his name, our new ESPN beat guy pointed that out on twitter yesterday. The team can play a little gamesmanship with the QB in concussion protocol, because QBs are always “limited/no contact” in practice anyway, so why not drag out the time the other team has to prepare for two different QBs. What will be telling is if Webb is brought up to the 53 by the roster deadline of 4pm Saturday. 

[Ramza86]

Watching these videos....he looks sluggish.

 

Im sitting him this week. He will get two weeks off and most likely be back to normal. 

 

If you think for 1 second he will run and slide every time Sunday, you are nuts. Titans defense can get pressure and get a hit. 

 

I dont want to be saying by the end of the year "Yeah....he hasnt looked the same since he got knocked out of two games in a row."

[thebug]

Give him the week off and come back after the bye. That’s my guess. Too risky otherwise. 

[buffaloboyinATL]

15 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Watching these videos....he looks sluggish.

 

You come away with "sluggish" from those videos? Damn you must have one hell of a trained eye...

[Wayne Cubed]

F5

[Ramza86]

Just now, buffaloboyinATL said:

You come away with "sluggish" from those videos? Damn you must have one hell of a trained eye...

 

They dont call me the hawk for nothing.

[NewEra]

Sit him.  We can win with Barkley.  

[Wayne Cubed]

If he clears protocol, which means he is fine, why would you sit him? He represents the Bills best chance of wining.

 

There is no risk if he clears protocol, people understand that right?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

If he clears protocol, which means he is fine, why would you sit him? He represents the Bills best chance of wining.

 

There is no risk if he clears protocol, people understand that right?

 

If he is cleared he will play. It isn't even a question.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, jimmy10 said:

 

Marcel what’s his name, our new ESPN beat guy pointed that out on twitter yesterday. The team can play a little gamesmanship with the QB in concussion protocol, because QBs are always “limited/no contact” in practice anyway, so why not drag out the time the other team has to prepare for two different QBs. What will be telling is if Webb is brought up to the 53 by the roster deadline of 4pm Saturday. 

 

So despite the concussion protocol being in the final hands of a "independent neurological consultant", Marcel Louis-Jacques raises the point that the team physician signs off first, the INC confirms.  So if the team physician drags his feet....the player's time in concussion protocol can be extended.

 

Interesting.  Of course, that does have its risks....if the team physician sends the player to the INC at the last moment and the INC doesn't concur, there might not be time for a rest and do-over.  Could backfire.

[Johnnycage46]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Sit him.  We can win with Barkley.  

If Allen is cleared...do you think he should still sit?  If so, why don't we just cut him...what is the point of sitting him if he is cleared?  Isn't the point of drafting him to play him?

[thebandit27]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So despite the concussion protocol being in the final hands of a "independent neurological consultant", Marcel Louis-Jacques raises the point that the team physician signs off first, the INC confirms.  So if the team physician drags his feet....the player's time in concussion protocol can be extended.

 

Interesting.  Of course, that does have its risks....if the team physician sends the player to the INC at the last moment and the INC doesn't concur, there might not be time for a rest and do-over.  Could backfire.

 

The INC can clear him verbally and not sign off

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

If he clears protocol, which means he is fine, why would you sit him? He represents the Bills best chance of wining.

 

There is no risk if he clears protocol, people understand that right?

 

In case you've missed it, there is a claque here which believes Barkley is a better QB than Allen at this point because Reasons.

 

Not entirely sure what those Reasons are - my kindest interpretation is they believe Barkley is more careful with the ball, better able to read defenses, and has a quicker release and that this is more important than Allen's undeniably greater physical talents.  The basis for this belief is apparently last year's Jets win is believed to represent the real Barkley, while his 6 2016 starts in Chicago (8 TD, 14 INT, 4 fumbles) somehow represent an aberration that need not be considered.  The fact that in 1 Q of play vs NE, he was on track for something like 4 INTs and 4 fumbles when projected to an entire game also need not be considered.

 

It's true that Barkley is better able to read defenses at this point, and thus makes quicker decisions, but his arm strength is strictly limited.  Defenses are better able to read him, too.  I like Barkley, but anyone who thinks it's a Good Plan to sit Allen (if he's available) so Barkley can get it done is being selective with their cold hard football facts.

 

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

The INC can clear him verbally and not sign off

 

If the INC is truly independent, why would they buy in to gaming the system like that?

[CaptnCoke11]

17 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Sit him.  We can win with Barkley.  

Yeah great idea... not

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

12 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I think you are right , there is really no diff between stage 4 or 5 for a QB , except that stage 5 would imply a second day of full practice , followed by a computer test called the IMPACT test the next day to be sure josh has reached his baseline scores ( prior to the injury) and that his scores remain stable. If his score regressed tomorrow it would probably mean another day in stage 4 of the protocol which really only means he would be retested on computer again on Saturday.  I believe if his score is stable tomorrow ( test done after sleeping after having finished a full practice ; the normal sleep part is important as many times patients with lingering symptoms or post concussion syndrome will have difficulty sleeping after exertion ) theoretically he would no longer need to be tested past Friday.   The IMPACT test is the only FDA approved protocol for management of concussion and used by the NFL, olympics , FIFA,  most high school athletic associations across the country and many colleges as well. 
Here is a link to the impact test site with a short video explaining its use. https://impactconcussion.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid_search&utm_campaign=impactproduct&ads_cmpid=6549852907&ads_adid=76904728725&ads_matchtype=b&ads_network=g&ads_creative=385367805553&utm_term=impact concussion&ads_targetid=kwd-314225683657&utm_campaign=&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&ttv=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuNbsBRC-ARIsAAzITufx6xQwglg6Gk2R2C4wShszuAnxePkx9hEGac068cFN6ezuZRApp5gaAuudEALw_wcB   ( hope that works ) .

 

Here is a link for the SCAT5  (  sport concussion assessment tool version 5 ) that has a really nice handout used by clinicians and the last two pages really define the protocol stages for progressive return to exercise , school and studying that is a nice resource and defines what a concussion is and what cardinal signs to look for. This is used for quick ( ten min test Immediately after a witnessed possible concussion or brain injury) on the field ; sideline assessment for initial screening, then formal IMPACT testing occurs later or 24 hours after injury and compared to baseline. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/early/2017/04/26/bjsports-2017-097506SCAT5.full.pdf

The following is the actual consensus statement on concussion in sport that was published from the conference in Berlin in 2016 and shows the multitude of experts brought together to develop the protocol or concussion policy that is in use today by the NFL. Don’t be put off by now formal it looks. It is nicely summed up in italics as you scroll thru the short paper. Pretty ingesting to see the actual report that was the basis for everything. 
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/bjsports/51/11/838.full.pdf.   Hope  that is helpful. I think you are spot on tho that for a qb there is no function diff between stage 4 or 5 , except for just an additional 24 hours to show stability and no regression post exertion. ?

 

 

 

 

I would legitimately struggle with the concentration test under any circumstance. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In case you've missed it, there is a claque here which believes Barkley is a better QB than Allen at this point because Reasons.

 

Not entirely sure what those Reasons are - my kindest interpretation is they believe Barkley is more careful with the ball, better able to read defenses, and has a quicker release and that this is more important than Allen's undeniably greater physical talents.  The basis for this belief is apparently last year's Jets win is believed to represent the real Barkley, while his 6 2016 starts in Chicago (8 TD, 14 INT, 4 fumbles) somehow represent an aberration that need not be considered.  The fact that in 1 Q of play vs NE, he was on track for something like 4 INTs and 4 fumbles when projected to an entire game also need not be considered.

 

It's true that Barkley is better able to read defenses at this point, and thus makes quicker decisions, but his arm strength is strictly limited.  Defenses are better able to read him, too.  I like Barkley, but anyone who thinks it's a Good Plan to sit Allen (if he's available) so Barkley can get it done is being selective with their cold hard football facts.

 

 

If the INC is truly independent, why would they buy in to gaming the system like that?

 

It definitely happens.

[london_bills]

14 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

If Allen is cleared...do you think he should still sit?  If so, why don't we just cut him...what is the point of sitting him if he is cleared?  Isn't the point of drafting him to play him?

You would have thought so. It all depends on how McDermott wants to manage the concussion/ development. 

 

If he's fine does McDermott want to let him ponder for a couple weeks. If it's close does McDermott air on the side of caution. If he's fine does McDermott believe the best way is for him to play.

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

It definitely happens.

I don't think it's that people believe Barkley is better per se, I think it's to do with what in the bigger picture develops Allen more. Another two week gap watching and learning and back for the dolphins, or to play straight away and learn by doing.

 

No concussion and there wouldn't be a conversation.

[Philo]

14 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

 

That first quote from McDermott sounds like the gamesmanship that has been discussed, no?

[Ta111]

I really don’t understand the “almost” cleared view of a few on here. You’re either completely cleared or you’re not. It’s like the old joke of “almost” pregnant. If he’s cleared, that means he’s fine to play. If he’s not cleared he’s not fine to play. 

[PaattMaann]

7 minutes ago, Philo Beddoe said:

 

That first quote from McDermott sounds like the gamesmanship that has been discussed, no?

 

it could be, it could also be he's not allowed to discuss anything at all about someone in the protocol under the NFL rules 

[Ta111]

2 minutes ago, Philo Beddoe said:

 

That first quote from McDermott sounds like the gamesmanship that has been discussed, no?

Agreed. But I believe the league rules state that you can’t comment on someone who is technically in the protocol.

[GG]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In case you've missed it, there is a claque here which believes Barkley is a better QB than Allen at this point because Reasons.

 

Not entirely sure what those Reasons are - my kindest interpretation is they believe Barkley is more careful with the ball, better able to read defenses, and has a quicker release and that this is more important than Allen's undeniably greater physical talents.  The basis for this belief is apparently last year's Jets win is believed to represent the real Barkley, while his 6 2016 starts in Chicago (8 TD, 14 INT, 4 fumbles) somehow represent an aberration that need not be considered.  The fact that in 1 Q of play vs NE, he was on track for something like 4 INTs and 4 fumbles when projected to an entire game also need not be considered.

 

It's true that Barkley is better able to read defenses at this point, and thus makes quicker decisions, but his arm strength is strictly limited.  Defenses are better able to read him, too.  I like Barkley, but anyone who thinks it's a Good Plan to sit Allen (if he's available) so Barkley can get it done is being selective with their cold hard football facts.

 

 

If the INC is truly independent, why would they buy in to gaming the system like that?

 

You say "Reasons" then proceed to list those exact reasons why people feel confident that Barkley can put up points with this offense.  Why do you wash away Barkley putting up 41 points last year, or having multiple 300 yard games with a craptastic Bears team, as if they're anomalies?  Allen's physical gifts come in handy when he needs to manufacture a heroic 4Q comeback.  With Barkley, the hope is that he doesn't make the boneheaded mistakes that we've seen Allen make in the first 3Qs that the comeback isn't needed.

Edited October 4, 2019 by GG

[nucci]

31 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

If Allen is cleared...do you think he should still sit?  If so, why don't we just cut him...what is the point of sitting him if he is cleared?  Isn't the point of drafting him to play him?

we should sit him the rest of the year so he is 100% for the playoffs......

[Logic]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

we should sit him the rest of the year so he is 100% for the playoffs......

Don't stop there. Need him fresh for the big game. Rest him until Super Bowl Sunday.

[Philo]

2 minutes ago, PaattMaann said:

 

it could be, it could also be he's not allowed to discuss anything at all about someone in the protocol under the NFL rules 

 

1 minute ago, Ta111 said:

Agreed. But I believe the league rules state that you can’t comment on someone who is technically in the protocol.

 

Gotcha. Wasn't aware there was a rule against commenting on players in concussion protocol. Thanks guys.

 

Hopefully, they plan on having him go through the required tests by the end of the day. 

[nucci]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Don't stop there. Need him fresh for the big game. Rest him until Super Bowl Sunday.

or just get him ready for next season...

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

6 minutes ago, Ta111 said:

Agreed. But I believe the league rules state that you can’t comment on someone who is technically in the protocol.

 

You have to be cleared by the Bills and then the independent neurologists.  But they aren't performing different tests, so the Bills' neurologist will (or at least should) know beforehand if JA will clear the independent neurologist.  The Bills can not submit JA to the independent neurologist immediately, even though he already cleared the Bill's neurologist. Do you folllow? 

[Philo]

2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

You have to be cleared by the Bills and then the independent neurologists.  But they aren't performing different tests, so the Bills' neurologist will (or at least should) know beforehand if JA will clear the independent neurologist.  The Bills can not submit JA to the independent neurologist immediately, even though he already cleared the Bill's neurologist. Do you folllow? 

 

How much time between the test with the team's doc and the independent neurologist?

[PaattMaann]

7 minutes ago, Philo Beddoe said:

 

How much time between the test with the team's doc and the independent neurologist?

 

this is not stated anywhere, in anything, that the NFL has made public...so unknown. I would guess it could happen immediately, but thats just my guess. 

[Johnnycage46]

31 minutes ago, nucci said:

we should sit him the rest of the year so he is 100% for the playoffs......

Well played!

[CincyBillsFan]

As others have noted it's pretty straight forward:

 

*  if Allen is cleared he plays.  It gives the best chance to win the game AND it helps us in the LONG RUN as every game Allen plays in makes him a better QB going forward.

 

*  If Allen isn't cleared we go with Barkley who is more then capable of leading us to victory against TN.

 

As an aside I have the same sense that others have noted that there is a small group of Bills fans who want Allen to sit so Barkley can shine and be the guy going forward.  This is NUTS IMO.  If Barkley plays and throws 5 TD passes it doesn't change a thing.  Allen starts against Miami.  If you want another 5 years of 7 - 9 to 9 - 7 seasons collapsing to 4 - 12 when the D runs out of gas hope that Barkley is better then Allen. 

 

If Allen isn't the guy, and I think he is, we're back to square one at QB.  Barkley isn't the guy no matter how well he plays Sunday if called upon.

 

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

22 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

It all depends how the message is delivered. McD is eminently capable of putting a positive spin on it; something along the lines of, "Great job on getting through the protocol so quickly. You're one tough MFer! Brian and I talked it over with Terry and Kim and we've decided to play it safe on this one and go with Matt this week. That was one hell of shot you took. You're the future of this team and we want to be 100% sure we're not jeopardizing that. Plus, if we're being honest that was a rough performance Sunday. There are some things we want you to work on with Brian over the bye -- footwork, reads -- so we come back strong vs. Miami. You're doing great, just keep working." 

 

If Josh can't handle an explanation like that and loses his confidence over it then perhaps we've all misjudged him. I think it's easier to get over the idea that you're being held back than going out there and failing before you're ready.   

 

You know the ole saying about putting lipstick on a pig...

 

Allen isn't an idiot.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

IMO He got his bell rung and saw stars. 

It didn’t look like he was knocked out 

 

I’m no expert 

nor did I sleep at a Holiday Inn 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, GG said:

 

You say "Reasons" then proceed to list those exact reasons why people feel confident that Barkley can put up points with this offense.  Why do you wash away Barkley putting up 41 points last year, or having multiple 300 yard games with a craptastic Bears team, as if they're anomalies?  Allen's physical gifts come in handy when he needs to manufacture a heroic 4Q comeback.  With Barkley, the hope is that he doesn't make the boneheaded mistakes that we've seen Allen make in the first 3Qs that the comeback isn't needed.

 

I don't wash away Barkley putting up 41 points against a bad Jets team last year, but when a guy has a multi-game body of work (Allen or Barkley) one shouldn't focus on one game or one aspect of those games.  You have an example of that latter last year: you mention Barkley having "multiple 300 yard games with a craptastic Bears team.  You fail to mention the fact that in Barkley's 3 - >300 yd games with the Bears, he also threw 10 interceptions (2, 3, and 5) and they lost each of those games.  So why do those games lead you to hope that "he doesn't make the boneheaded mistakes that we've seen Allen make (so that) the comeback isn't needed?"  He won't make the same boneheaded mistakes we've seen Allen make, he's better at reading Ds and getting the ball out quickly at this point in his career, but those aren't everything.  His physical limitations mean he'll make different mistakes with the same result.

 

One shouldn't dismiss Barkley's good game against the Jets, but neither can one wholly focus on it while dismissing the rest of Barkley's playing career.  There's a reason he's overall an under-60% completion guy with 10 career TDs and 19 career INTs.  I hope Barkley has honed his craft since 2016, but the fact is against a very strong NE D if you project what he did vs the Pats out to a full game, he too would have racked up a buttload of turnovers.

 

When the starter on a team struggles, the backup QB is always the most popular guy in town with some fans, but perception is not reality.

 

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

As others have noted it's pretty straight forward:

 

*  if Allen is cleared he plays.  It gives the best chance to win the game AND it helps us in the LONG RUN as every game Allen plays in makes him a better QB going forward.

 

*  If Allen isn't cleared we go with Barkley who is more then capable of leading us to victory against TN.

 

As an aside I have the same sense that others have noted that there is a small group of Bills fans who want Allen to sit so Barkley can shine and be the guy going forward.  This is NUTS IMO.  If Barkley plays and throws 5 TD passes it doesn't change a thing.  Allen starts against Miami.  If you want another 5 years of 7 - 9 to 9 - 7 seasons collapsing to 4 - 12 when the D runs out of gas hope that Barkley is better then Allen. 

 

If Allen isn't the guy, and I think he is, we're back to square one at QB.  Barkley isn't the guy no matter how well he plays Sunday if called upon.

 

 

 

Couldn’t of said it any better.

 

The people here who want Barkley to be better than Allen are mostly people who formed an opinion about Allen. Some of These posters are now more concerned with being right than with seeing their team succeed. 

Barkley is another version of Tyrod, Fitz, Holcomb...

I really think Allen can be a Rodgers, Farve, Big Ben type of player for years to come. 

If Allen is cleared he plays and we cheer him on to victory. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by atlbillsfan1975

[IDBillzFan]

32 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

As an aside I have the same sense that others have noted that there is a small group of Bills fans who want Allen to sit so Barkley can shine and be the guy going forward. 

 

These fans you reference do not want Allen to sit so Barkley can shine. They want him to sit so they can say "I told you so." I'll never understand it, but there are just some fans that would like to see the team fail so they can explain they were right about not liking the Allen pick and the front office was wrong.

 

It makes no sense to me. That type of thinking is usually reserved for people like Jerry Sullivan and Tim Graham, who make a living off pointing out when someone at OBD did something wrong.

[Gugny]

4 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

These fans you reference do not want Allen to sit so Barkley can shine. They want him to sit so they can say "I told you so." I'll never understand it, but there are just some fans that would like to see the team fail so they can explain they were right about not liking the Allen pick and the front office was wrong.

 

It makes no sense to me. That type of thinking is usually reserved for people like Jerry Sullivan and Tim Graham, who make a living off pointing out when someone at OBD did something wrong.

 

A.  Effing.  Men.

[YoloinOhio]

Interesting - Jarvis Landry has been in the protocol too since Sunday and wasn’t at practice at all this week. Cleared from protocol today and will be at practice. He doesn’t play until Monday though.

Edited October 4, 2019 by YoloinOhio