Josh Allen in concussion protocol: Update cleared 10/5

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Lurker said:

 

If Allen was in protocol for both the Wednesday and Thursday practices, I can't see how he's be given comparable snaps to Barkley.     

 

If he gets cleared later today or Friday, I could see him serving as Barkley's backup, however.

I said above that McDermott has said more than once if you suit up you are expected to play. I don't think there is much chance if he is fully cleared that he is not starting. They don't clear him at 95%.

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Not sure why you would say that definitively. We do not know if he took the final tests yet, plus the real worry is that he regressed from yesterday, and that does not at all appear to be the case as he is practicing. Plus he took all the first team reps in the first walk through this morning.

 

I can't see McD starting Allen with only limited walk through preparation after a poor outing vs. the Pats.   He's just too conservative about things like that.

 

I could see McD challenging the team to rise to the occasion with Barkley starting.   It seems like a very 'process' thing to do...

 

Edit:  I could even see McD sitting Josh for motivational reinforcement of how they want him to play.    I guess we'll have to see what he says later today...

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Lurker

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, wiskibreth said:

My guess is, he was never "really" concussed, they just put him through the protocol for optics.  I totally disagree with posters saying he should sit out this week to teach him some kind of lesson.  It's not just all about Josh Allen, there's 52 other dudes plus coaching staff plus the rest of the organization who want the best chance to win on Sunday.

 

I also disagree Allen should sit out to "teach him some kind of lesson", but Allen was absolutely concussed, by "optics" - how the play looked on film.  It looked as though he went limp, he lost consciousness, fencer's reflex with his hands - he absolutely had a concussion.  Ability to jog down the tunnel is not diagnostic for lack of concussion.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[nucci]

18 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Well, that's that.    No way Allen starts Sunday, although he might serve as the backup...

if he is healthy enough to be backup, why wouldn't he start?

[Ta111]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

if he is healthy enough to be backup, why wouldn't he start?

Exactly. You’re either in or out of protocol. He’s going to start Sunday.

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

I wonder when the independent neurologist examines him? And if he is cleared how long can they wait to say he's been cleared. I imagine it would have to be made 

public probably right away??

[Dablitzkrieg]

Based on what I'm seeing for 2 days in a row, I have to believe, given no other QB was signed or Webb being brought up, he's starting.  Hopefully Singletary too.  He looks fast in the clips 

[london_bills]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

Based on what I'm seeing for 2 days in a row, I have to believe, given no other QB was signed or Webb being brought up, he's starting.  Hopefully Singletary too.  He looks fast in the clips 

That's a fair point re: no other QB signed

[Lurker]

12 minutes ago, nucci said:

if he is healthy enough to be backup, why wouldn't he start?

 

Doing throwing drills before practice is one thing.    Running with the ones while they put in the game plan is another (we don't know if he did or didn't, but I'm betting he didn't)

 

I can't recall a Bills QB that didn't practice during the week ever starting on Sunday (and that includes the Kelly era)...

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Lurker

[CLTbills]

1 minute ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Based on what I'm seeing for 2 days in a row, I have to believe, given no other QB was signed or Webb being brought up, he's starting.  Hopefully Singletary too.  He looks fast in the clips 

While I agree, it's not because of Webb not being brought up. Even though he's on the PS, he can still be practicing all week to be the backup and can be activated to the 53 on Saturday. It serves you no purpose to activate him before that anyway. At the very least, even if you know Allen isn't playing, keep the Titans guessing. The moment you activate Webb, now the Titans know your plans. At least make them have to prepare for both QB's in the meantime. 

 

But I agree. He's starting in Tennessee.

[Logic]

 

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Lurker said:

 

Doing throwing drills before practice is one thing.    Running with the ones while they put in the game plan is another (we don't know is he did or didn't but I'm betting he didn't)

 

I can't recall a Bills QB that didn't practice during the week ever starting on Sunday (and that includes the Kelly era)...

Why would they have him out first today in a walk through with the first team in the rain with Barkley on the sidelines? 
 

The only reason would be, I guess, to have that reported so the Titans think he’s starting. Although I’d guarantee they are anyway. 

1 minute ago, Logic said:

 

This implies they knew Tuesday that he was not in serious trouble. That doesn’t mean anything definitive. But it does say to me they knew very early the concussion was not a bad one, which lends credence to being able to play this week. It’s no certainty but imo likely. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Why would they have him out first today in a walk through with the first team in the rain with Barkley on the sidelines? 
 

The only reason would be, I guess, to have that reported so the Titans think he’s starting. Although I’d guarantee they are anyway. 

 

Here is the thing.  The Bills do not have to rush him to stage 5.  Theoretically, he could have cleared all the tests with the teams physicians--they will know if he will pass with the independent physician. They may be keeping him in the protocol until the last moment,  just to keep Ten guessing. I'm 90% certain that Morse was ready long before they actually took him out of the protocol, just because they were in no rush to have the independent physician evaluate him.  

 

Edit: Marcel Louis-Jacques just said the same thing on Twitter just as I was typing my post. That is wild timing. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[Logic]

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Dopey]

If it's even close, I want him to sit and then have the bye week too. We need Josh for the long haul. Also, last year, things seemed to slow down for him after he returned from injury.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Lurker]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Why would they have him out first today in a walk through with the first team in the rain with Barkley on the sidelines? 
 

The only reason would be, I guess, to have that reported so the Titans think he’s starting. Although I’d guarantee they are anyway. 

 

I think it's to make the Titan's prepare for both. 

 

My view is that it would be a real risk to have Josh prepare to start in both the Wednesday and Thursday practices if he still hadn't been removed from the protocol.   If he suffered a setback after Thursday, you'd have to go with an under-prepared Barkley on Sunday.

 

McD does not cotton under-preparation.    I doubt very much that he'd risk having Josh or Barkley not be ready after the cluster F** against the Pats...    

[nucci]

Just now, Dopey said:

If it's even close, I want him to sit and then have the bye week too. We need Josh for the long haul. Also, last year, things seemed to slow down for him after he returned from injury.

We need our starting QB to play and improve...if he is healthy having him sit for a few weeks doesn't help.

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Yep, this is basically what I think they did with Morse.

[USCGBILLSFAN]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

From our site's TOS:

Special note to fans of other teams: This message board is provided for the enjoyment of Bills fans and you should recognize that as such. We welcome fans from any team that come here in the spirit of good sportsmanship and with the intent to exchange good dialog with Bills fans. However, inappropriate trash talk and other inappropriate methods of disruption are grounds for message removal and possible restricted board access to violators. TBD does not allow mischievous activity from disruptive posters that would result in decreased readership or a devaluation of the product.

 

So, No.  They can and will get warned for trash-talking or being disruptive - f they start an account 10 minutes after the game to trash talk out the airlock they go - but we look at the posting history and  if there seems to be an attempt at dialog and football convo intermixed with the trash, they're allowed.

 

 

This post is the kind of info that keeps me here.  Great stuff and Thank you.

Thank you for the information, i was frustrated and it bothers me when people like that offer nothing to the discussion, win lose or draw its about fun, but NE fans will be NE fans and sometimes they just dig under my skin.

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

I think it's to make the Titan's prepare for both. 

 

My view is that it would be a real risk to have Josh prepare to start in both the Wednesday and Thursday practices if he still hadn't been removed from the protocol.   If he suffered a setback after Thursday, you'd have to go with an under-prepared Barkley on Sunday.

 

McD does not cotton under-preparation.    I doubt very much that he'd risk having Josh or Barkley not be ready after the cluster F** against the Pats...    

But that is apparently what the Bills did. 

[BillsFanSD]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Pretty sure concussion protocol is out of the hands of the team. He took a head shot, exhibited some kind of symptom or symptoms, and went right into concussion protocol.

 

"In addition to the team medical staff and an unaffiliated neurological consultant, the league employs two medical spotters in the booth who watch the game with binoculars and video replay to identify injuries that others missed. The league added a rule in 2015 allowing for the medical spotters to stop the game with a medical timeout to remove an injured player.

"Observable symptoms"

There are seven observable symptoms used to identify players with concussions. Those are:

• Any loss of consciousness
• Slow to get up following a hit to the head ("hit to the head" may include secondary contact with the playing surface)
• Motor coordination/balance problems (stumbles, trips/falls, slow/labored movement)
• Blank or vacant look
• Disorientation (e.g., unsure of where he is on the field or location of bench)
• Clutching of head after contact
• Visible facial injury in combination with any of the above

When spotters or other medical personnel see those signs, that’s when the protocol goes into effect."

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/9/18/12940926/nfl-concussion-protocol-explained

 

This is what makes me suspect that Allen wasn't really concussed.  He clearly got knocked out, which automatically puts in the protocol and made him ineligible to return to the game.  But losing consciousness doesn't automatically mean he suffered a concussion.  He certainly didn't look like a guy who was concussed once he came to.  

 

I think it's very likely that he's good to go this weekend.

[Dopey]

Just now, nucci said:

We need our starting QB to play and improve...if he is healthy having him sit for a few weeks doesn't help.

Gotcha. I said if it's close. I'm not an expert at concussions, by any means, but to me if it's close there are still lingering issues. Not worth it.

[london_bills]

Just now, Dopey said:

Gotcha. I said if it's close. I'm not an expert at concussions, by any means, but to me if it's close there are still lingering issues. Not worth it.

If it's close I'm sure they would sit him.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, SWATeam said:

Yep, this is basically what I think they did with Morse.

Bingo. Part of the protocol, as I understand it, is that the player has to be cleared by an independent doctor AND the team's medical staff. With Morse, the independent doctor could have cleared him and the team could have said "Let's hold off on clearing him ourselves just to be safe." They probably knew they didn't want to play him till the regular season and so kept him in the protocol until the last minute.

[Lurker]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

But that is apparently what the Bills did. 

 

No.   All we know is that Josh did some throwing drills.    We have no way of knowing what happened after the media were ushered out.

 

I'm just basing my view on how things have gone down in the past with guys who didn't practice (i.e., go through game plan installation).     The risk of the independent doc not clearing Josh is hard to judge.    But McD's track record favors a conservative, risk-adverse approach to player usage and it just seems like the Titan's game is not a do-or-die instance where Josh has to start...

 

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Lurker

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, Dopey said:

Gotcha. I said if it's close. I'm not an expert at concussions, by any means, but to me if it's close there are still lingering issues. Not worth it.

 

I'm not sure if there is a way to determine if he is close or not. Either you have returned to your baseline reading or you haven't. If you have ANY symptoms or fail in your baseline tests, you remain in the protocol. If you return to baseline and remain there, you are removed from protocol once the doctors sign off. So I don't think there is supposed to be any chance of you getting cleared if it is "close". You have to return completely to baseline.

[The Wiz]

2 minutes ago, MJS said:

Bingo. Part of the protocol, as I understand it, is that the player has to be cleared by an independent doctor AND the team's medical staff. With Morse, the independent doctor could have cleared him and the team could have said "Let's hold off on clearing him ourselves just to be safe." They probably knew they didn't want to play him till the regular season and so kept him in the protocol until the last minute.

The only point I have arguing against this is that Morse barely participated in practice until the last week of preseason.  Not sure why they wouldn't clear him and just not play him if he didn't want to play in the preseason but that's something I'm sure we will never get a true answer to. 

[Deep2Moulds46]

In my opinion the Bills absolutely know who their starting QB is going to be on Sunday. No matter what the scenario, it makes sense to keep him in the protocol. 

Allen and Barkley couldn't be more opposite in terms of how they play, so why not keep Tennessee guessing. 

I wouldn't expect to know for sure until Saturday at 4PM. If Webb hasn't been promoted from the PS, then Allen is fine. 

However, I would even say there's a chance that if the Bills plan to play Allen Sunday, they still promote Webb on Saturday. Why not keep the Titans guessing?

it would probably be tricky to determine who to send down, but I think this could be a spot where you see one of our 10 OL go bye bye. 
 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I have a feeling that it hasn't really been, or will be hard for McD to decide. He likely was feeling alright early in the week, in protocol still of course. It is absurd to think if he's taking reps with ones and has cleared protocol, which sounds likely to happen, he won't start. McDermott is no fool, he knows he's under no obligation to make it any easier for the Titans by announcing they expect him to play.

4 minutes ago, MJS said:

 

I'm not sure if there is a way to determine if he is close or not. Either you have returned to your baseline reading or you haven't. If you have ANY symptoms or fail in your baseline tests, you remain in the protocol. If you return to baseline and remain there, you are removed from protocol once the doctors sign off. So I don't think there is supposed to be any chance of you getting cleared if it is "close". You have to return completely to baseline.

How do we know he's been tested today?

[nucci]

5 minutes ago, Deep2Moulds46 said:

In my opinion the Bills absolutely know who their starting QB is going to be on Sunday. No matter what the scenario, it makes sense to keep him in the protocol. 

Allen and Barkley couldn't be more opposite in terms of how they play, so why not keep Tennessee guessing. 

I wouldn't expect to know for sure until Saturday at 4PM. If Webb hasn't been promoted from the PS, then Allen is fine. 

However, I would even say there's a chance that if the Bills plan to play Allen Sunday, they still promote Webb on Saturday. Why not keep the Titans guessing?

it would probably be tricky to determine who to send down, but I think this could be a spot where you see one of our 10 OL go bye bye. 
 

Of course the Bills know who is starting but I think the advantage for us vs Titans not knowing is overrated. Regardless of how different they, the offense will still be the same

Edited October 3, 2019 by nucci

[Wayne Cubed]

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

No.   All we know is that Josh did some throwing drills.    We have no way of knowing what happened after the media were ushered out.

 

I'm just basing my view on how things have gone down in the past with guys who didn't practice (i.e., go through game plan installation) in the past.     The risk of the independent doc not clearing Josh is hard to judge.    But McD's track record favors a conservative, risk-adverse approach to player usage and it just seems like the Titan's game is a do-or-die instance where Josh has to start...

 

When Joe Flacco got his head smashed in by the Legend of Kiko he was in concussion protocol practiced, like what Josh is doing and then was cleared 5 days later. It happened on the Thursday night game they then practiced during the week and then cleared him from protocol the following Wednesday.

 

McD is keeping it close to the chest and isn’t letting it be known what’s going on exactly, smartly I might add. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Wayne Cubed

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Can anyone confirm if the decision on in or out of protocol is the team, the league, or independent? I thought it was independent neurologist e v a l and based on symptoms and cognitive tests compared to baseline 

[Johnnycage46]

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

Of course the Bills know who is starting but I think the advantage for us vs Titans not knowing is overrated. Regardless of how different they, the offense will still be the same

 

I think to an extent...but for instance, with Allen at QB the D may try to replicate what the Pats were doing...or practice a game plan with a spy.  Whereas with Barkley there is no need for a spy and the blitz vs. not blitz approach may change.

[MJS]

10 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

 

This is what makes me suspect that Allen wasn't really concussed.  He clearly got knocked out, which automatically puts in the protocol and made him ineligible to return to the game.  But losing consciousness doesn't automatically mean he suffered a concussion.  He certainly didn't look like a guy who was concussed once he came to.  

 

I think it's very likely that he's good to go this weekend.

 

Someone might need to correct me, but if you receive enough trauma to the brain to knock you out, that is always going to be a concussion. You can get a concussion without getting knocked out, but getting knocked out will always be a concussion.

"A concussion is a type of traumatic brain injury caused by a bump, blow, or jolt to the head or by a hit to the body that causes the head and brain to move rapidly back and forth. Rapid movement causes brain tissue to change shape, which can stretch and damage brain cells. This damage also causes chemical and metabolic changes within the brain cells..."

Loss of consciousness:

"Your brain has three big parts. There’s the left hemisphere, the right hemisphere, and the brainstem at the bottom. You can lose consciousness if both hemispheres are turned off at once — though if only one is affected, the other can pick up some of the slack. You can also lose consciousness if part of the brainstem is knocked offline."

Seems to me like having your brain hemispheres shut down is a direct result from "Rapid movement caus[ing] brain tissue to change shape".

[Kelly the Dog]

10 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

No.   All we know is that Josh did some throwing drills.    We have no way of knowing what happened after the media were ushered out.

 

I'm just basing my view on how things have gone down in the past with guys who didn't practice (i.e., go through game plan installation).     The risk of the independent doc not clearing Josh is hard to judge.    But McD's track record favors a conservative, risk-adverse approach to player usage and it just seems like the Titan's game is not a do-or-die instance where Josh has to start...

 

 

The report this morning was he was the first quarterback taking snaps and going through plays as Barkley stood with hands in pockets.

[nucci]

Just now, Johnnycage46 said:

 

I think to an extent...but for instance, with Allen at QB the D may try to replicate what the Pats were doing...or practice a game plan with a spy.  Whereas with Barkley there is no need for a spy and the blitz vs. not blitz approach may change.

right but nothing so dramatic where it changes the entire game plan. The Bills are still going to run the same offense

[Lurker]

Just now, Wayne Cubed said:

 

When Joe Flacco got his head smashed in by the Legend of Kiko he was in concussion protocol practiced, like what Josh is doing and then was cleared 5 days later. It happened on the Thursday night game they then practiced during the week and then cleared him from protocol the following Wednesday.

 

The timing's a little different timing on Flacco.   If he got cleared the following Wednesday, it means he got to go through both days of game plan installation.     

 

We don't know for sure if that has been the case with Josh, however.    Only that he tossed the ball and jumped around a lot...