Interesting thought on Hock & the Bills on Twitter

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position&position=OL

 

just 6 years ago, Cooper and Womack went top 10 as G’s.

 

but If you had to choose between Jonah and TJ, who do you go with?  I just really want a difference maker at TE.  Much like receiver, we have a bunch of 2, 3, & 4 guys.  We need a 1.

Of course there are some guards who don’t pan out... but about 20% of all top 10 guard picks all pro... that is very high rate... compared to 5% at QB

 

if it’s those 2 I think that’s a hard decision. Jonah maybe doesn’t have elite measurables but he is a technician. Should be better than Dawkins day 1

 

but I would prolly go Hock

[Reed83HOF]

11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?type=position&position=OL

 

just 6 years ago, Cooper and Womack went top 10 as G’s.

 

but If you had to choose between Jonah and TJ, who do you go with?  I just really want a difference maker at TE.  Much like receiver, we have a bunch of 2, 3, & 4 guys.  We need a 1.

I have a hard time drafting OL this high, always have always will. That being said, I did like Nelson a lot last year; however that was 1 player out of the last 20+ years I followed the draft. The bust potential in the draft is high and rarely do you see rookie OL ready on day 1 to play anymore. When you are drafting in the top 10-12ish I want to see those players starting, JMO

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

I hope we get him but i think Sternberger and Knox would be pretty good gets.

 

 

I like Sternberger in the third or even late 2nd. With our first pick I want an impact player at a premium position...

[mrags]

18 minutes ago, JM57 said:

Yeah definitely more athletic. It's funny some of the write-ups I've read on Hockenson have a hard time finding real negatives for him on the film, maybe some small stuff to clean up, but they're just like "his athletic numbers aren't great."

 

Now I won't call myself an expert but if you're breaking down film of a guy and all you can find to be down on is that he doesn't test off the charts at the combine then you've got my attention. Give me a player whose film is so good you can't even complain about it LOL

Don’t get me wrong at all. I think Hock will be really good. Has a higher floor and will most likely be good at worst. However just how some people feel about Metcalf, I say swing for the fences. If your going with potential, I think Fant has a higher ceiling. Of course I could be wrong. But I’d take Fant, back in the 20s and be glad I traded back multiple times for multiple extra 2nd and 3rd round picks. Giving me room to move back up if needed, or stay where we are. Because I feel this draft class has a lot of really good talent at our positions of most need. I say capitalize on more picks. 

[WotAGuy]

I think the Bills take Williams if he’s available and then trade back up into the late first to get their D-lineman.  TE after that. Signing Yeldon means there is less need to grab a TE earlier. RBs will be Allen’s bread and butter in between bombs. 

[eball]

I'd be willing to bet a bunch of dollars that John Murphy doesn't know Jack Schitt about who the Bills might draft.

[TaskerTough]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The Bills organization has NEVER had a dynamic TE in their history. I think it's time for that to change. 

 

 

 

[The Bills Blog]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

This. Not to mention he’s just a fat stupid idiot that has no idea what he’s talking about. He was right in the Allen thing. No crap. So we’re a million other idiots that generally don’t have a clue. But it’s not hard to figure out. 

Fat? Wow. What does his body shape have to do with it? Unacceptable to make comments like this in this day and age.

[wppete]

26 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

even my grandmother?

 

Especially your grandmother!!!!!

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Was Brian Bulaga worth a #9?  

I'd say no. He's somewhere between average and above average. 

13 minutes ago, TaskerTough said:

 

 

 

Only a Bills fan could think that Riemersma ever exceeded "average"!

Edited April 22, 2019 by dave mcbride

[mrags]

17 minutes ago, The Bills Blog said:

Fat? Wow. What does his body shape have to do with it? Unacceptable to make comments like this in this day and age.

I don’t care. If you’re offended, get off the internet. 

[Canadian Bills Fan]

What the #@! does John Murphy know???

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

What the #@! does John Murphy know???

Nothing. That’s the point 

[HeHateMe]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I like Hock a lot, but for what it's worth, Noah Fant had TWICE as many receiving touchdowns over the last two seasons as Hock. Hock -- 9. Fant -- 18 (!).
 

True but in 2018, our most reason sample season, Fant had 1 more TD (7 to 6),  10 less catches, and 241 less yards than Hockenson.  

 

I prefer the guy who never has to come off the field.  Hock!

[The Jokeman]

6 minutes ago, HeHateMe said:

True but in 2018, our most reason sample season, Fant had 1 more TD (7 to 6),  10 less catches, and 241 less yards than Hockenson.  

 

I prefer the guy who never has to come off the field.  Hock!

Hock is Metzelaars to as Fant is McKeller, I agree Hock the better all around guy to have and if choose between the two it's the first.

Edited April 22, 2019 by The Jokeman

[Reed83HOF]

20 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

What the #@! does John Murphy know???

I thought Canadians were supposed to be polite?

[Canadian Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I thought Canadians were supposed to be polite?

 

 

Not when it comes to John Murphy

[C.Biscuit97]

35 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I'd say no. He's somewhere between average and above average. 

Only a Bills fan could think that Riemersma ever exceeded "average"!

Strongly disagree.  I thought Jay was a really borderline good TE for us.  Of course, now I just looked up the stats and he was the definition of average. Amazing how you remember things when you’re young. 

[maryland-bills-fan]

Tight end is a fair blocker most of the time and a surprise receiver the rest of the time. That job can be done by committee and you can always substitute to get a mismatch on the play that YOU as the offense are going to call.   If you want a better tight end, draft one each hear in the 4th round, OR look for good athletes playing some other position (OT, FB,  QB, ruby).  

Edited April 22, 2019 by maryland-bills-fan

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

So the Bills agree with me.

[Rockinon]

You can't look at merely receiving production. The reason Hock is rated higher is because he can block too. That is a huge advantage.  The D does not know whether he is staying in to block or running a route or a combination of the 2.  This opens things up in both the run and the pass game.  It also gives the D more to think about. A good all around TE can stay on the field and force defenders to guess what is coming.

 

Not projecting whether a pass or a run is coming is what good offenses do. A good multidimensional TE is one effective way to do just that.

[Chandler#81]

So, anyway, back to the thread, it’s not sexy -and I LIKE sexy, but J. Williams appears very safe and alines with everything out of OBD. Surround Josh. 

Imho, he’s head & shoulders better than the Florida OT, and a likely OL staple for a decade.

[blacklabel]

I doubt Fant is on this team's radar. Word on him right now is that he doesn't love ball all that much and there are questions about his dedication, work ethic, and how hard he's willing to push himself. 

 

Hockenson on the other hand, there hasn't been much about him but the general consensus I've seen is that teams like him and think he's a good but not great player.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, NickelCity said:

He was dead on about Allen, for sure. I'd take Hock over Jonah, so I'll hope Murph is wrong here lol.

 

Being "dead on about Allen" though doesnt mean he "knew" something or that anything he says later will be as dead on.  I was dead on about Allen too, even about getting him outside the top 5.  But I didn't know anything from any "insiders", he was just the guy I felt Beane and McD were targeting based on what was coming out ahead of the draft, and the fact that nothing at all about Rosen seemed to be the kind of player Beane and McD were going to target to be the new face and leader of this team.  

 

 

[NickelCity]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Being "dead on about Allen" though doesnt mean he "knew" something or that anything he says later will be as dead on.  I was dead on about Allen too, even about getting him outside the top 5.  But I didn't know anything from any "insiders", he was just the guy I felt Beane and McD were targeting based on what was coming out ahead of the draft, and the fact that nothing at all about Rosen seemed to be the kind of player Beane and McD were going to target to be the new face and leader of this team.  

 

 

 

Of course. I don't think he's plugged in, I think he gives his opinions like the rest of us. I hope his opinion re: Hock is off base. 

[Bring it]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

I like Hock a lot, but for what it's worth, Noah Fant had TWICE as many receiving touchdowns over the last two seasons as Hock. Hock -- 9. Fant -- 18 (!).
 

This occurred to me a couple days ago! I didn’t have the guts to post it but it doesn’t seem that crazy when you consider that Fant is really more like a big receiver. Sure would have defenses guessing especially if Foster and Brown are also on the field!

[JM57]

2 hours ago, mrags said:

Don’t get me wrong at all. I think Hock will be really good. Has a higher floor and will most likely be good at worst. However just how some people feel about Metcalf, I say swing for the fences. If your going with potential, I think Fant has a higher ceiling. Of course I could be wrong. But I’d take Fant, back in the 20s and be glad I traded back multiple times for multiple extra 2nd and 3rd round picks. Giving me room to move back up if needed, or stay where we are. Because I feel this draft class has a lot of really good talent at our positions of most need. I say capitalize on more picks. 

I like your philosophy. I'm kind of on the other side of the fence. 

 

Hockenson's high floor sells me. IF Josh Allen is The Guy, then the Bills need to get good before he costs a ton of money. That's their best window. Surround him with the best weapons you can, starting with this season, and let's get there. A plug and play guy like Hock with a high floor and still a high ceiling just makes sense to me like that 

[mrags]

31 minutes ago, JM57 said:

I like your philosophy. I'm kind of on the other side of the fence. 

 

Hockenson's high floor sells me. IF Josh Allen is The Guy, then the Bills need to get good before he costs a ton of money. That's their best window. Surround him with the best weapons you can, starting with this season, and let's get there. A plug and play guy like Hock with a high floor and still a high ceiling just makes sense to me like that 

I don’t disagree with any of that and wouldn’t be upset if they did do that. 

 

Imo, the guy that scares me in the draft is Oliver. I feel he’s undersized and hasn’t played against Nfl caliber talent. I don’t know how people think so highly of him. I just don’t see it. Even with that said, if that’s the guy the Bills go after in the draft, I will trust the process. 

[WideNine]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How dare you forget about the great Lee Smith?

 

what I don’t get is why don’t bad teams copy what good teams do.  The Pats constantly spend picks on TEs and sign FA TEs.  That’s why I liked the Clay signing. It was at least an effort.  When you have a young qb, you need a big target in the middle of field.  I really like Beasley but he wasn’t as effective without Witten.  

 

Or Friggin Lonnie.

 

I wish I could find a video clip of that time Lonnie caught the ball in Green Bay (I think) and was pointing at himself in the JumboTron, but must have lost track that GB had 11 players that included one Safety who decleated him during his premature victory romp to a TD. 

 

Classic Bills moment.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

3 hours ago, JM57 said:

They measured out almost identical in size at the combine, so bigger target is an interesting take. Hearing Fant referred to as physical is also interesting considering he's more of your stereotypical move TE and has been described as a "get in the way" blocker. FWIW, I think they both can have very successful careers in the NFL. It just depends on what flavor of TE you want. 

 

Fant is going to be a guy you can put in the slot and wreck shop that way, but won't provide much pop to your run game at all unless he puts in some serious work.

 

Hockenson should be able to play anywhere you want him. Inline, in the slot, whatever you need but should be a really good blocker as well as a trusted weapon in the run game.

 

If you take the Patriots nightmare offense with Gronk and Hernandez, Fant is Hernandez. A more consistent Jared Cook? 2018 Eric Ebron? It's tough to put a comp on him that isn't slanderous, if he hits his ceiling

I think he had them mixed up. Fant is faster in the 40 with a 4.50 and Hock is a 4.70 and the latter is much more physical because is so much the better blocker. He is being refereed to by scouts at NFL.com as a world destroyer and another stated he will be gold jacket worthy.

 

Hock 6'5'' 251

Fant 6'4'' 249

 

The biggest difference is that Hock has a 6.35 grade which lists him as the 5th best overall player in this years draft and Fant is graded at #38 just behind Irv Smith. 

 

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

That’s the point. TE is a weird position.

 

The failure rate of first round TEs is extremely high... how they develop is super weird , so you are better drafting mid round TEs

 

and Gates was a basketball player who transitioned to football.. he was a project and didn’t have a lot of experience 

 

Gronks tape absolutely screamed 1st round pick. He was extremely injury prone and hurt at Zona which moved him down

 

Gronks tape and Hocks are not alike 

Gronk went in the 2nd round due to back problems as he missed the entire 2009 season due to back surgery and yet still entered the draft.

 

 TJ Hockenson is graded much, much higher then Gronk who was considered a late first round, second round pick.

[NewEraBills]

1 hour ago, NickelCity said:

 

Of course. I don't think he's plugged in, I think he gives his opinions like the rest of us. I hope his opinion re: Hock is off base. 

 

The media guys and mockers are somewhat plugged in but could be misled.  What they report is based on who they are talking with around teams.  They also talk with agents.  So in some sense they are not off base but can be completely off base.  A lot of the time they put together what an agent has said with what people around a team are saying and then look at the perceived need.

[mrags]

9 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I think he had them mixed up. Fant is faster in the 40 with a 4.50 and Hock is a 4.70 and the latter is much more physical because is so much the better blocker. He is being refereed to by scouts at NFL.com as a world destroyer and another stated he will be gold jacket worthy.

 

Hock 6'5'' 251

Fant 6'4'' 249

 

The biggest difference is that Hock has a 6.35 grade which lists him as the 5th best overall player in this years draft and Fant is graded at #38 just behind Irv Smith. 

 

Gronk went in the 2nd round due to back problems as he missed the entire 2009 season due to back surgery and yet still entered the draft.

 

 TJ Hockenson is graded much, much higher then Gronk who was considered a late first round, second round pick.

I didn’t have them confused. I o ow who I’m talking about. I was wrong about their heights and weights. As I thought Fant was a taller and bigger guy than Hock. I still haven’t changed my mind on that. Looking at them, Fant just looks more sizable imo. 

[John from Riverside]

On taking Jonah....to me that is going to depend on what they think of the OL they brought in free agency

 

If you think Ngesti (sp) is a starter for 2 years then you can bring in a developmental OT later in the draft and not have to use your 1st round pick on it......

 

Jesus...the way I put it here the pick is Metcalf

[JaCrispy]

4 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

I have to call BS on whoever it was that tweeted that. He was not talking up Allen last year at all. Tasker even less so. 

 

Btw he’s been all in on metcalf this year 

I remember Murph saying that Darnold was his first choice, with Allen a close second.  Fans would constantly criticize his opinion on the matter but he kept defending Allen to the end.

Edited April 22, 2019 by JaCrispy

[Buffalo716]

24 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I think he had them mixed up. Fant is faster in the 40 with a 4.50 and Hock is a 4.70 and the latter is much more physical because is so much the better blocker. He is being refereed to by scouts at NFL.com as a world destroyer and another stated he will be gold jacket worthy.

 

Hock 6'5'' 251

Fant 6'4'' 249

 

The biggest difference is that Hock has a 6.35 grade which lists him as the 5th best overall player in this years draft and Fant is graded at #38 just behind Irv Smith. 

 

Gronk went in the 2nd round due to back problems as he missed the entire 2009 season due to back surgery and yet still entered the draft.

 

 TJ Hockenson is graded much, much higher then Gronk who was considered a late first round, second round pick.

Evaluations of TEs have significantly changed since the TE boom. They are valued a lot higher now Then even 10-15 years ago 

 

Hock is not a much much much better prospect. Gronk was a freak when he played at zona

Edited April 22, 2019 by Buffalo716

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

What the #@! does John Murphy know???

Only broadcaster on WGR that picked Allen

[Punching Bag]

3 hours ago, TaskerTough said:

 

 

 

 

And the K-gun was named after TE Keith McKeller not Kelly.  You have to be dynamic to have an offense named after you, right?

 

I had a chance to talk with him at a tailgate, nice guy.  He was another Alabaman who used to be a basketball player.  

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I remember Murph saying that Darnold was his first choice, with Allen a close second.  Fans would constantly criticize his opinion on the matter but he kept defending Allen to the end.

Maybe I caught all the times he bashed his on-field performance in college but I think it was more so that there were certain guys he really didn’t like  (mayfield was a big one) and darnold was definitely his favorite. But no way does he know anything that they are doing. 

[mrags]

Just now, JaCrispy said:

Only broadcaster on WGR that picked Allen

Means nothing. Many had the Bills taking Allen. It was hardly a stretch. He had 4 QBs to pick from. 25%  hence of being right. And most could assume the Jets were gonna take Darnold or Mayfield if they had their pick. So that takes off at least 1 guy. So there you have a 33% chance of being right. It really wasn’t like the 2nd coming of a Hungarian Gypsy or something. 

[JaCrispy]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Maybe I caught all the times he bashed his on-field performance in college but I think it was more so that there were certain guys he really didn’t like  (mayfield was a big one) and darnold was definitely his favorite. But no way does he know anything that they are doing. 

You know, it’s funny....it just popped into my head all the times Jones would mock Murph about liking Allen.

[Nihilarian]

5 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Evaluations of TEs have significantly changed since the TE boom. They are valued a lot higher now Then even 10-15 years ago 

 

Hock is not a much much much better prospect. Gronk was a freak when he played at zona

I think Bills fans just don't get how a tight end can be graded so highly by so many as just about every site I look at has Hock as a top ten prospect and most have him in the top six. 

 

The reason for this high grade is because he doesn't just block people...he pancakes them or treats them like rag dolls. He is an elite blocker!  Just like what made Josh Allen stand out so much was because it was like watching a man play against boys or like a eighth graders playing against a senior.

 

Then, the kid catches everything thrown his way...as he dropped only one pass out of 49. This alone would would make him special in Buffalo as Clay only caught 58% of the passes thrown his way. Just to give a comparison his teammate at Iowa, Noah Fant dropped 15%.

 

Like Hockenson, Gronk was graded as the best TE in the draft. However, even if he had no red flags due to injury he wouldn't have graded as a top ten pick. Those red flags were considerable as he he missed three games in 2008 due to back problems and missed the entire 2009 season due to back surgery. Some teams didn't even have him on their boards due to durability concerns. The Patriots also hedged their bets by drafting Aaron Hernandez in the same draft and his issues were failing up to five drug tests at Florida.

 

  He wasn't considered a generational talent at his position like some think TJ Hockenson is... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/3/25/18278845/2019-nfl-scouting-report-tj-hockenson