Interesting thought on Hock & the Bills on Twitter

[BruceVilanch]

11 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

But how the hell do you know that?  If you knew Gronk and Gates would be those players, they won’t have gone top 10?  Do Kittles or Kelce not go in the 3rd round and go top 10 if you knew how good they were?

At the same point, Julio Jones had less tds than Ridley.  Sometimes, a great player draws coverages away to make things easier for another player.  Honestly, I don’t have an idea who is necessarily the better player but some stats can be misleading. 

Eric Moulds made Peerless Price's career because he was drawing doubles. Peerless then proceeded to flame out in ATL.

[Buffalo716]

57 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I think Bills fans just don't get how a tight end can be graded so highly by so many as just about every site I look at has Hock as a top ten prospect and most have him in the top six. 

 

The reason for this high grade is because he doesn't just block people...he pancakes them or treats them like rag dolls. He is an elite blocker!  Just like what made Josh Allen stand out so much was because it was like watching a man play against boys or like a eighth graders playing against a senior.

 

Then, the kid catches everything thrown his way...as he dropped only one pass out of 49. This alone would would make him special in Buffalo as Clay only caught 58% of the passes thrown his way. Just to give a comparison his teammate at Iowa, Noah Fant dropped 15%.

 

Like Hockenson, Gronk was graded as the best TE in the draft. However, even if he had no red flags due to injury he wouldn't have graded as a top ten pick. Those red flags were considerable as he he missed three games in 2008 due to back problems and missed the entire 2009 season due to back surgery. Some teams didn't even have him on their boards due to durability concerns. The Patriots also hedged their bets by drafting Aaron Hernandez in the same draft and his issues were failing up to five drug tests at Florida.

 

  He wasn't considered a generational talent at his position like some think TJ Hockenson is... https://www.milehighreport.com/2019/3/25/18278845/2019-nfl-scouting-report-tj-hockenson

We can agree to disagree 

 

I think he is a really good football player but I wouldn’t say generational... that term is tossed around too loosely 

 

A generational talent is a sure fire all pro / hall of famer

 

Neither of which he is... he is a really good football player who should and will go earlier in the first 

 

There are some who don’t even think he’s the best TE at Iowa.. so he is hardly a generational player

 

i understand he is a mauling blocker with soft hands that doesn’t mean you just walk into the NFL and become an All Pro

 

depending how the board falls I would take him at 9 so I’m not saying he’s a scrub.. there are better defensive players that could possibly fall that I would target over him though 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

@JM57 asked me after a discussion in the shout box to elucidate on what I had on Hock and this thread seemed like a suitable thread in which to do it. My scouting notes on Hock are typed up below"

 

Pros:

- all round solid tight end;

- very good soft hands;

- impressive get off both in terms of running routes and in terms of getting the initial punch as a blocker;

- effective after the catch and hard to bring down;

- demonstrates an understanding of blocking schemes and was used in a variety of ways;

- finishes his blocks;

- 100% effort every play.

 

Cons:

- only average speed for the position;

- struggles to create separation through his route running;

- doesn't high point the football consistently when catching it, could use his body better to wall off defensive backs;

- struggles to block anyone with speed. Hands tend to start too wide and doesn't have a quick step adjustment;

- lacks a truly elite trait. 

 

So to me that is a guy I would consider taking later in the first round and I would love to have early in the 2nd round. Which is precisely why I have him graded as that borderline guy. I think he can be a plug and play starter for a team at tight end and have a good solid 6-10 year career there. But I don't see an elite difference maker and for me to give a tight end a pure first round grade, or even more so a top 10 grade, I have to believe I see that elite potential. 

 

Then we come to the tricky question of pro comparison. I am not big into the pro comparison thing in general but I get asked about it a lot for players and I have seen all sorts of names thrown about for Hock - Gronk, Kelce, Witten...... my pro comparison is a little more modest - Kyle Rudolph. Rudolph was drafted early in the 2nd round back in 2011 and in an 8 year career has scored 41 touchdowns (just better than 5 a year), been an effective run blocker both for AP and then Delvin Cook and in the seasons where he has stayed healthy has put up somewhere between 450 and 850 receiving yards. Also worth saying his receiving production has not been helped by a less than stellar list of Quarterbacks: Christian Ponder, Matt Cassel, Teddy Bridgewater, Sam Bradford, Case Keenum and Kirk Cousins.  To me that is where I see Hock.... in the 600-800 yards receiving and 4 or 5 touchdowns a year range most years while helping out as a blocker at the same time. 

 

Of the bigger name comparisons I do see Jason Witten. Witten was a third rounder back in 2003 and in 15 years averages just over 4.5 touchdowns a season and around 800 yards. He has had 4 1,000 yard seasons in 15 years - his first of which came in his 5th year in the league. Now if you ask looking back "would Jason Witten of been worth a first round pick?" of course the answer is yes. But the period of his career where he was a true elite difference maker was a short spell in the middle and it is precisely because you can find guys like Witten later in the draft that you have to be convinced a guy is that elite difference maker and is capable of being it early in order to make him worth a 1st. Witten is a future HoFer but part of that is his incredible longevity and I don't think you can sensibly draft a non-Quarterback and say "he is going to play for 15 years". 

 

Essentially my conclusion is even if I am willing to put Hockenson somewhere between Kyle Rudolph as a floor and Jason Witten as a ceiling that does not make me reconsider the grade I have given him. 

 

I do not think Hockenson is going to be a bust. Far from it - I think he is a pretty safe pick. My doubts are whether he will ever be a star.

[BillsFan1988]

16 hours ago, golfball323 said:

Personally I think it's time for Murph to move on. Might just be me but I'm getting a "too big for his britches" feeling from listening to him lately... Maybe I'm just getting old

Murphy & Tasker the worst combo I ever heard in sports radio history i get nervous the brief times that I listen. To make things worse they will host the first round of the draft. U couldn't find 2 guys that had less knowledge of the draft then these 2 guys. Wgr and the Bills should of at least put CB, Joe B and Sal with them.  I mean it's the draft we need guys that know what there talking about. 

[JM57]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

@JM57 asked me after a discussion in the shout box to elucidate on what I had on Hock and this thread seemed like a suitable thread in which to do it. My scouting notes on Hock are typed up below"

 

Pros:

- all round solid tight end;

- very good soft hands;

- impressive get off both in terms of running routes and in terms of getting the initial punch as a blocker;

- effective after the catch and hard to bring down;

- demonstrates an understanding of blocking schemes and was used in a variety of ways;

- finishes his blocks;

- 100% effort every play.

 

Cons:

- only average speed for the position;

- struggles to create separation through his route running;

- doesn't high point the football consistently when catching it, could use his body better to wall off defensive backs;

- struggles to block anyone with speed. Hands tend to start too wide and doesn't have a quick step adjustment;

- lacks a truly elite trait. 

 

So to me that is a guy I would consider taking later in the first round and I would love to have early in the 2nd round. Which is precisely why I have him graded as that borderline guy. I think he can be a plug and play starter for a team at tight end and have a good solid 6-10 year career there. But I don't see an elite difference maker and for me to give a tight end a pure first round grade, or even more so a top 10 grade, I have to believe I see that elite potential. 

 

Then we come to the tricky question of pro comparison. I am not big into the pro comparison thing in general but I get asked about it a lot for players and I have seen all sorts of names thrown about for Hock - Gronk, Kelce, Witten...... my pro comparison is a little more modest - Kyle Rudolph. Rudolph was drafted early in the 2nd round back in 2011 and in an 8 year career has scored 41 touchdowns (just better than 5 a year), been an effective run blocker both for AP and then Delvin Cook and in the seasons where he has stayed healthy has put up somewhere between 450 and 850 receiving yards. Also worth saying his receiving production has not been helped by a less than stellar list of Quarterbacks: Christian Ponder, Matt Cassel, Teddy Bridgewater, Sam Bradford, Case Keenum and Kirk Cousins.  To me that is where I see Hock.... in the 600-800 yards receiving and 4 or 5 touchdowns a year range most years while helping out as a blocker at the same time. 

 

Of the bigger name comparisons I do see Jason Witten. Witten was a third rounder back in 2003 and in 15 years averages just over 4.5 touchdowns a season and around 800 yards. He has had 4 1,000 yard seasons in 15 years - his first of which came in his 5th year in the league. Now if you ask looking back "would Jason Witten of been worth a first round pick?" of course the answer is yes. But the period of his career where he was a true elite difference maker was a short spell in the middle and it is precisely because you can find guys like Witten later in the draft that you have to be convinced a guy is that elite difference maker and is capable of being it early in order to make him worth a 1st. Witten is a future HoFer but part of that is his incredible longevity and I don't think you can sensibly draft a non-Quarterback and say "he is going to play for 15 years". 

 

Essentially my conclusion is even if I am willing to put Hockenson somewhere between Kyle Rudolph as a floor and Jason Witten as a ceiling that does not make me reconsider the grade I have given him. 

 

I do not think Hockenson is going to be a bust. Far from it - I think he is a pretty safe pick. My doubts are whether he will ever be a star.

Much appreciated. You're much more modest on your evaluation of him than many of the big time analysts, but I think that's a good thing. If the big time analysts are writing their reports and hyping his ceiling, I think you've done a good job with seeing his floor. 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I don’t think either are on the board at 9 unless Detroit trades out of 8 with Carolina who love Dillard.

 

 

[billsredneck1]

16 hours ago, golfball323 said:

Personally I think it's time for Murph to move on. Might just be me but I'm getting a "too big for his britches" feeling from listening to him lately... Maybe I'm just getting old

i love that show.  i think murph does a great job with show prep and with guests on the show....then again , maybe it's because he's working with tasker who sounds like he's got the cocaine drip sniffles working.  however, it's my fave 3hrs. during the week days.

[billsredneck1]

16 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I just don't recall last year. I remember Allbright on Allen, but that is it. I let those memories go LOL

 

I don't listen to Murph & Tasker at all really and Chris Brown not so much either. I'm just not a fan of official Team "Journalists"/PR personnel. 

i used to be down on the company station guys, especially chris brown when they had to talk up the whaley/brandon/rex era.

now that we have a great front office, it's very enjoyable.  they have a ton of national guests on and murph does a great job with his questions.

 

chris brown is much better than before, especially with his x's and o's.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, billsredneck1 said:

i love that show.  i think murph does a great job with show prep and with guests on the show....then again , maybe it's because he's working with tasker who sounds like he's got the cocaine drip sniffles working.  however, it's my fave 3hrs. during the week days.

 

I think Murph gets good guests. I don't listen as much anymore because since GDPR getting a stream of WGR in the UK is harder and also the time change - I used to listen to the first hour as I got in bed - but he can be a bit of a leading questions interviewer where he gives his opinion then asks them to agree....

[billsredneck1]

16 hours ago, the skycap said:

Murph and Tasker was high on Metcalf. I also heard Lorax mention him as an explosive, game changing prospect. Was just listening to Eric Moulds on their show and he said the #1 thing he'd want to see from a prospect was their release of the line. Said you can teach route running. 

i heard all that. however, they've also stated how air tight the place is and that they never hear anyone even hint a thing to them about personnel....and i believe it.

besides, the fo i'm sure has at least 9 different scenarios on who might be there at 9 and who knows how things will play out from the 1st pick on.

they don't know any more than any of us.

[eball]

15 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

 

Only a Bills fan could think that Riemersma ever exceeded "average"!

 

Or was "dynamic"  

[Canadian Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Only broadcaster on WGR that picked Allen

 

 

Good for him.

 

I predicted they would take Allen too.

 

Doesn't mean the Bills FO feeds me inside info

[Nihilarian]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

We can agree to disagree 

 

I think he is a really good football player but I wouldn’t say generational... that term is tossed around too loosely 

 

A generational talent is a sure fire all pro / hall of famer

 

Neither of which he is... he is a really good football player who should and will go earlier in the first 

 

There are some who don’t even think he’s the best TE at Iowa.. so he is hardly a generational player

 

i understand he is a mauling blocker with soft hands that doesn’t mean you just walk into the NFL and become an All Pro

 

depending how the board falls I would take him at 9 so I’m not saying he’s a scrub.. there are better defensive players that could possibly fall that I would target over him though 

I'm not here to force my will on anyone as I just want to point out some observations. Just like I did last year pre draft with Josh Allen...as most fans here hated that choice.

 

One of the things that bothered me the most about the Bills last season was the top two Buffalo Bills receiving targets who had the dropsies all season. I couldn't figure out why either one of these two players were constantly targeted. 2018 Buffalo Bills leading receiver target, yards wise, Zay Jones 102 pass targets, 56 receptions for a 54.9 catch percentage. Yikes! Second in targets was Kelvin Benjamin, 62 targets, 23 receptions for a 37.1 catch percentage. 85 passes, really? 

 

Then you look at TJ Hockenson who dropped a total of only two passes his entire two year career at Iowa. 

 

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-2019-nfl-draft-first-round-pick-predictions/2/

 

That article from another thread gives some insight into who the Buffalo Bills could be looking at @ #9.

 

Chris Trapasso calls Hockenson a destroyer of worlds, https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-draft-iowas-t-j-hockenson-is-destroyer-of-worlds-as-a-blocker-dynamic-pass-catcher/

 

NFL.com Analyst Bucky Brooks lists Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson is one of the "gold jacket" prospects in the 2019 NFL Draft class. https://www.rotoworld.com/college-football/nfl-draft/player/39502/tj-hockenson

 

 

Another thing, I wouldn't be surprised if Hock is gone before #9 to the Jags or Lions. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Patriots attempt to trade up to draft the kid. 

[FLFan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

@JM57 asked me after a discussion in the shout box to elucidate on what I had on Hock and this thread seemed like a suitable thread in which to do it. My scouting notes on Hock are typed up below"

 

Pros:

- all round solid tight end;

- very good soft hands;

- impressive get off both in terms of running routes and in terms of getting the initial punch as a blocker;

- effective after the catch and hard to bring down;

- demonstrates an understanding of blocking schemes and was used in a variety of ways;

- finishes his blocks;

- 100% effort every play.

 

Cons:

- only average speed for the position;

- struggles to create separation through his route running;

- doesn't high point the football consistently when catching it, could use his body better to wall off defensive backs;

- struggles to block anyone with speed. Hands tend to start too wide and doesn't have a quick step adjustment;

- lacks a truly elite trait. 

 

So to me that is a guy I would consider taking later in the first round and I would love to have early in the 2nd round. Which is precisely why I have him graded as that borderline guy. I think he can be a plug and play starter for a team at tight end and have a good solid 6-10 year career there. But I don't see an elite difference maker and for me to give a tight end a pure first round grade, or even more so a top 10 grade, I have to believe I see that elite potential. 

 

Then we come to the tricky question of pro comparison. I am not big into the pro comparison thing in general but I get asked about it a lot for players and I have seen all sorts of names thrown about for Hock - Gronk, Kelce, Witten...... my pro comparison is a little more modest - Kyle Rudolph. Rudolph was drafted early in the 2nd round back in 2011 and in an 8 year career has scored 41 touchdowns (just better than 5 a year), been an effective run blocker both for AP and then Delvin Cook and in the seasons where he has stayed healthy has put up somewhere between 450 and 850 receiving yards. Also worth saying his receiving production has not been helped by a less than stellar list of Quarterbacks: Christian Ponder, Matt Cassel, Teddy Bridgewater, Sam Bradford, Case Keenum and Kirk Cousins.  To me that is where I see Hock.... in the 600-800 yards receiving and 4 or 5 touchdowns a year range most years while helping out as a blocker at the same time. 

 

Of the bigger name comparisons I do see Jason Witten. Witten was a third rounder back in 2003 and in 15 years averages just over 4.5 touchdowns a season and around 800 yards. He has had 4 1,000 yard seasons in 15 years - his first of which came in his 5th year in the league. Now if you ask looking back "would Jason Witten of been worth a first round pick?" of course the answer is yes. But the period of his career where he was a true elite difference maker was a short spell in the middle and it is precisely because you can find guys like Witten later in the draft that you have to be convinced a guy is that elite difference maker and is capable of being it early in order to make him worth a 1st. Witten is a future HoFer but part of that is his incredible longevity and I don't think you can sensibly draft a non-Quarterback and say "he is going to play for 15 years". 

 

Essentially my conclusion is even if I am willing to put Hockenson somewhere between Kyle Rudolph as a floor and Jason Witten as a ceiling that does not make me reconsider the grade I have given him. 

 

I do not think Hockenson is going to be a bust. Far from it - I think he is a pretty safe pick. My doubts are whether he will ever be a star.

My hope, and my belief, is that the Bills at looking at this the same way.  Not worth number 9.  If they end up trading back, maybe, depending on how far.  

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

 

 

Good for him.

 

I predicted they would take Allen too.

 

Doesn't mean the Bills FO feeds me inside info

Not saying it’s true, but I could definitely understand if he was having casual conversations with friends in the building about the direction the team was leaning....not really out of the realm of possibility.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Not saying it’s true, but I could definitely understand if he was having casual conversations with friends in the building about the direction the team was leaning....not really out of the realm of possibility.

 

I guess but I don't see it.

 

It would be like Van Miller back in the day leaking draft news. I just don't know how much stock I would put into it

[HeHateMe]

We need to get with the times and grab a TE early.  Hock is my guy at 9 but I don't think we take him unfortunately.  

 

The guy has great hands and is a stud blocker who never has to come off the field.  

[Reed83HOF]

3 hours ago, billsredneck1 said:

i used to be down on the company station guys, especially chris brown when they had to talk up the whaley/brandon/rex era.

now that we have a great front office, it's very enjoyable.  they have a ton of national guests on and murph does a great job with his questions.

 

chris brown is much better than before, especially with his x's and o's.

 

I mean way back in the day, yeah I used to listen to what they said, but always took it with a grain of salt. If they are getting paychecks from the team, it is hard to be fair and objective. This won't be a popular opinion, but I did like Sully at times because on occasion he was correct (other times yeah it was a bit much). I like to be balanced - read and get a grasp of the good and bad, which you often don't get from the team. I follow Brown on twitter and will peruse his Friday mailbag or other things that are interesting...

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

I'm not here to force my will on anyone as I just want to point out some observations. Just like I did last year pre draft with Josh Allen...as most fans here hated that choice.

 

One of the things that bothered me the most about the Bills last season was the top two Buffalo Bills receiving targets who had the dropsies all season. I couldn't figure out why either one of these two players were constantly targeted. 2018 Buffalo Bills leading receiver target, yards wise, Zay Jones 102 pass targets, 56 receptions for a 54.9 catch percentage. Yikes! Second in targets was Kelvin Benjamin, 62 targets, 23 receptions for a 37.1 catch percentage. 85 passes, really? 

 

Then you look at TJ Hockenson who dropped a total of only two passes his entire two year career at Iowa. 

 

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-2019-nfl-draft-first-round-pick-predictions/2/

 

That article from another thread gives some insight into who the Buffalo Bills could be looking at @ #9.

 

Chris Trapasso calls Hockenson a destroyer of worlds, https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-draft-iowas-t-j-hockenson-is-destroyer-of-worlds-as-a-blocker-dynamic-pass-catcher/

 

NFL.com Analyst Bucky Brooks lists Iowa TE T.J. Hockenson is one of the "gold jacket" prospects in the 2019 NFL Draft class. https://www.rotoworld.com/college-football/nfl-draft/player/39502/tj-hockenson

 

 

Another thing, I wouldn't be surprised if Hock is gone before #9 to the Jags or Lions. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Patriots attempt to trade up to draft the kid. 

 

Is Hockenson going to get 100 targets?  If not, he shouldn't be drafted in the top 10.

[Bangarang]

Just say no to Hock at 9. 

[Chuck Wagon]

I certainly understand the desire for a quality TE.  Personally I love the position and what a really good one can unlock on the field and it's been far too long since we've had one.

 

My concern with Hock is many seem to be expecting Gronk 2.0.  I don't think that's the case, or even at the level of guys like Ertz / Kelce / Kittle.  Feels to me to be the "Kyle Williams" of TEs, always recognized as a very good player by football heads but not ever anyone that stands out as a difference maker that must be on the defensive game plan or on the short list of the best at the position from the common fan.

 

If your expectation is he's a high quality starter at the position who'll fit right in on a blue collar team and you are fine taking that at 9, that's fine.  But if you've talked yourself into the next Gronk or immediately at the level of the current triumvirate at the top of the position, you need to tap the brakes. 

[JaCrispy]

4 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

I certainly understand the desire for a quality TE.  Personally I love the position and what a really good one can unlock on the field and it's been far too long since we've had one.

 

My concern with Hock is many seem to be expecting Gronk 2.0.  I don't think that's the case, or even at the level of guys like Ertz / Kelce / Kittle.  Feels to me to be the "Kyle Williams" of TEs, always recognized as a very good player by football heads but not ever anyone that stands out as a difference maker that must be on the defensive game plan or on the short list of the best at the position from the common fan.

 

If your expectation is he's a high quality starter at the position who'll fit right in on a blue collar team and you are fine taking that at 9, that's fine.  But if you've talked yourself into the next Gronk or immediately at the level of the current triumvirate at the top of the position, you need to tap the brakes. 

I compare Hock more to Jason  Witten.

Edited April 23, 2019 by JaCrispy

[Chicken Boo]

There's an unknown TE lurking in rounds 2-4 that will have as much or even a greater impact than Hockensen.

 

I am diametrically opposed to drafting any tight end inside the top 10.  In my eyes, that's a luxury pick and the Bills have far more pressing needs.

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Chicken Boo said:

There's an unknown TE lurking in rounds 2-4 that will have as much or even a greater impact than Hockensen.

 

I am diametrically opposed to drafting any tight end inside the top 10.  In my eyes, that's a luxury pick and the Bills have far more pressing needs.

To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player.  Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player.  Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position.

 

I think this class has guys who can do it all much more than some modern draft classes.

[Chuck Wagon]

3 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player.  Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position.

 

A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play.  

 

I've waffled all over on Hock.  Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there.  But the 9th pick just feels too rich.  A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten".

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play.  

 

I've waffled all over on Hock.  Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there.  But the 9th pick just feels too rich.  A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten".

Sure, but I don't like Dillard for this team.  He has shorter arms than Jonah and I have no idea if he can run block.  But I think Jonah is on the short list of possibilities at 9- along with Hock and the dlineman.

[Reed83HOF]

8 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

A "franchise" LT is also on the field for every play.  

 

I've waffled all over on Hock.  Like I said, I love the position and am ready for a clear cut, top half of the league starter there.  But the 9th pick just feels too rich.  A guy like Jonah Williams or Andre Dillard being the next "Joe Staley" just has more value than a guy like Hock being the next "Jason Witten".

 

and I still don't like them at #9. Once the top tier of like 7-8 guys is gone and they are taken before us. I would look to slide back if we can get good value (#2 would be ideal).

 

After these guys are gone:

 

Bosa

Oliver

Allen

Williams

Taylor

White

Murray (not a fan, but he is a top prospect)

 

I feel like you are right near that mid-tier where the overall draft grades aren't separating the overall talent that much. We either swing to move up to get one of those guys or slide back to get more draft capital to move back in the bottom of RD1 and end up taking 2 of the best available from DL, OT, WR, maybe TE outside of the top 13ish

[Chuck Wagon]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

 

and I still don't like them at #9. Once the top tier of like 7-8 guys is gone and they are taken before us. I would look to slide back if we can get good value (#2 would be ideal).

 

After these guys are gone:

 

Bosa

Oliver

Allen

Williams

Taylor

White

Murray (not a fan, but he is a top prospect)

 

I feel like you are right near that mid-tier where the overall draft grades aren't separating the overall talent that much. We either swing to move up to get one of those guys or slide back to get more draft capital to move back in the bottom of RD1 and end up taking 2 of the best available from DL, OT, WR, maybe TE outside of the top 13ish

 

 

Oh I completely agree.  That's why I've been on team "trade up" for a while now.  If EVERYONE wants to trade back, the "moneyball" move says the value is in moving up.  9 feels like "no mans land", getting the same caliber player you'd get at ~15 but the guys in the top tier will be off the board.  I understand a team can always benefit from having more good players on rookie deals, but we are in a cap position for the next several years where needs can be filled easily in the market and we need to add as many young blue chip players as possible.

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Oh I completely agree.  That's why I've been on team "trade up" for a while now.  If EVERYONE wants to trade back, the "moneyball" move says the value is in moving up.  9 feels like "no mans land", getting the same caliber player you'd get at ~15 but the guys in the top tier will be off the board.  I understand a team can always benefit from having more good players on rookie deals, but we are in a cap position for the next several years where needs can be filled easily in the market and we need to add as many young blue chip players as possible.

 

I'm right there with you!

[Nihilarian]

25 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

To me, the thing that separates Hock is that he's an every down player.  Pretty unique these days with basically jacked up Wr's playing the position.

I agree. 

 

 

From the cover 1 link I posted, https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-2019-nfl-draft-first-round-pick-predictions/2/

 

"Drafting Hockenson would give Josh Allen another weapon, one that closely resembles another tight end that offensive coordinator Brian Daboll has coached in Rob Gronkowski. The junior tight end has the ability to be a factor in the run and pass game, which Beane and the staff will love. He’s a big, athletic player who can create holes at the point of attack or be a threat down the seam like Gronk was. He is as reliable as they come as a receiver, only dropping two passes his entire career, and Allen could use that type of crutch early in his career.

 

Beane and McDermott saw firsthand what an all-around tight end can do for a young QB; they had Cam Newton paired with Greg Olsen in Carolina.

More importantly, Hockenson possesses the grit and “DNA” this regime loves. While most, including me, believe taking a tight end in the top ten is typically a mistake, Hockenson’s value to this team will help their young quarterback and could take Daboll’s offense to new heights."

 

Josh Allen threw deep more then any other NFL QB past season (percentage wise) and while John Brown caught 43.3 percent of his passes while in Baltimore last year (97 targets, 42 receptions) Zay Jones had a 54.9 catch percentage, Robert Foster had a 61.4 catch percentage. 

 

I would love to see a receiver like Hock that only dropped two passes his entire college career in a Bills uni ...being that threat for Buffalo that drives defensive coordinators insane like Gronk used to do.

[Coach Tuesday]

Keep in mind that 2020 is supposed to be a really bad year for offensive linemen.  This is the year to scoop one, especially if you can grab a decent TE in later rounds.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Coach Tuesday

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

22 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How dare you forget about the great Lee Smith?

 

what I don’t get is why don’t bad teams copy what good teams do.  The Pats constantly spend picks on TEs and sign FA TEs.  That’s why I liked the Clay signing. It was at least an effort.  When you have a young qb, you need a big target in the middle of field.  I really like Beasley but he wasn’t as effective without Witten.  

 

They do but not at #9 overall, they find them in the 2nd round or later and that's why they're good teams to begin with, it all starts with drafting. 

[FeelingOnYouboty]

Hockenson gives us a mismatch nightmare and confuses the defense on every play because they won't be able to tell if we're running or passing. Positional value my balls man. He's a 10 year quality player who will make a few All Pro teams and is great in the locker room and will be great in the community. 

 

We all have our preferences at #9 but if we do take him I hope no one complains too much. I'll be happy with Oliver, Williams, Wilkins, Hockenson, Metcalf or Dillard at #9. I trust Beane/McDermott at this point.

[Reed83HOF]

Good article on the TE position in this draft and valuation of it...

 

http://www.optimumscouting.com/news/replacing-gronkowski

 

[MacGyver]

On 4/22/2019 at 1:21 PM, golfball323 said:

Personally I think it's time for Murph to move on. Might just be me but I'm getting a "too big for his britches" feeling from listening to him lately... Maybe I'm just getting old

 

I've never liked him.  I also can't stand listening to Tasker, would be nice if that show was replaced by something else.

[gonzo1105]

I have been a big Hockenson advocate. For everyone that likes Fant because he's a better athlete, The Iowa Hawkeye's are the most tradition rich TE producing school in the country. T.J. Hockenson started over Noah Fant in one TE sets. Its because he's simply a better player than Fant. He isn't as athletic but he blocks a lot better, he catched the ball more consistently than Fant(who drops a lot of passes). Who cares if you can run fast if you drop the ball.

 

I went back and watched Travis Kelce's Cincinnati tape. He wasn't some fluid athlete in college in my opinion. He actually looked kind of lumbering if you watch his highlights. You also have to remember that he is just 21 years old. He hasn't even tapped his full potential yet.  He does look slender for being 250 pounds which makes me believe he can gain another 10 pounds of muscle easy.

 

Rob Gronkowski-4.68

Travis Kelce- 4.63

Zach Ertz- 4.76

Austin Hooper-4.68

George Kittle- 4.52

 

Those were the top 5 TE's in the NFL by receptions and yards last year. Seems like Hockenson's 4.7 is about right in line besides Kittle. I'm not saying the Bills are going to take him but he's a damn good prospect that everyone underrates because he didn't put up mind blowing passing statistics.