Rumour: Rosen and Mayfield were off the Bills' Board

[C.Biscuit97]

58 minutes ago, eball said:

Very interesting.  We'll see what happens.

 

As an aside, I was talking with a buddy who is a big USC fan and he was much more down on Darnold than I expected.  Said he's your typical laid-back CA kid and while he has all of the physical ability he's also a "happy-go-lucky" kind of guy and he's not sure he has the competitive fire to lead an NFL team.  It was a perspective I hadn't heard previously; if true, NYC will eat him alive.

You pretty much described Eli.

[BillsGuru4]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Okay... so I don't really go in for inside sources type gossip but I got told something yesterday, 3rd hand by someone whose route tree for the information seemed to be legit. I know him from a couple of NFLUK events I have attended and he used to coach (position coach only) in the league.  I won't say more than that.  His information confirmed to me the suspicion that I think many on this board have had about the Bills Quarterback draft board.  They had two Quarterback prospects with top 10 grades and a third who they would have considered with a later first round selection.  Those two were, in order:

 

1. Sam Darnold

2. Josh Allen

 

The third was Mason Rudolph. He claimed that neither Josh Rosen, nor Baker Mayfield were on the Bills' draft board at all. Both had been removed due to off the field concerns and neither were under consideration as a potential Buffalo Bill. The Bills allegedly had a mid round grade on Lamar Jackson and he wasn't their 4th Quarterback (though he did not say who was).

 

The information actually makes me feel a little better about the Josh Allen pick and their ability to evaluate. The have access to infinitely more sources of personal information about these kids than I or any other fan and obviously decided that Rosen and Mayfield did not fit what they wanted from a culture point of view. I like Rosen's personality from what I have seen and think the criticism for his public persona is total hogwash. But the Bills have the opportunity to go deeper into his circle in a way I never could. It means that they did not look at Josh Allen's tape and think "that's better than Rosen's" which reassures me somewhat for the long term.

 

It doesn't make me believe Allen is any more likely to work out than I thought before.... but it does at least make me believe that they probably made the only choice they thought was available to them. Here is hoping it works out.  

 

 

Darnold and Allen were my top two the whole time and I’m thrilled to have Allen. Not too excited about the jets getting darnold though

[ProcessAccepted]

55 minutes ago, eball said:

Very interesting.  We'll see what happens.

 

As an aside, I was talking with a buddy who is a big USC fan and he was much more down on Darnold than I expected.  Said he's your typical laid-back CA kid and while he has all of the physical ability he's also a "happy-go-lucky" kind of guy and he's not sure he has the competitive fire to lead an NFL team.  It was a perspective I hadn't heard previously; if true, NYC will eat him alive.

 

I hope so but Eli has manage to survive and somehow collect a couple of rings. Maybe the Jets fans will turn on him for being boring, they're not the most rational fan base in the league  

[PromoTheRobot]

55 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

It makes sense.  Whether it's true or not, it makes sense.  I know so many people wanted Rosen but did they really take into consideration his fit for this team?  Attitude questionable at times and he's got some red flag injuries, especially for a team that plays in cold weather a lot.  Mayfield had his fair share of off the field stuff that didn't happen when he was 16 but happened throughout his college career.  Fans just look at stats and the highlight reels and make their choice of who they want.  Wouldn't be shocked if this was true.

I don't get why Rosen's concussion history is not more troubling to people. He's one big hit away from potentially being done.

[starrymessenger]

I have no problem with the Bills favouring Allen over Mayfield or Rosen after a careful comparison of the skill sets. And we already know that Allen has the highest ceiling. I'm prepared to credit and respect their professional opinion. Both Mayfield and Rosen have hurdles to overcome if they are to be successful, as do any rookie QBs.

But if these two guys were taken off the board for reasons related to their "intangibles" (or perceived lack thereof) I can't say that I would agree with the decision unless the Bills know a good deal more about them than is available for public consumption. Both guys may have "personalities" that may at times make them more difficult to work with but TBH at the end of the day I saw all the QB prospects this year as good people serious about their craft - no Ryan's or Jamarcuses. If I thought that Mayfield or Rosen had a better chance of succeeding on the field than the others I would not have taken them off the board because of their personalities. I understand "character" to always be a legitimate and vital concern, but it seems to me that an organization that better knows how to deal with and manage different "personalities" has access to a broader talent pool and a better chance of succeeding. 

[Lurker]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The coach was smart enough to realize that he wouldn't be comfortable with Rosen in his room and Rosen wouldn't be comfortable being in the room. The best way to deal with a problem is avoid it. 

 

Sadly, I agree with this.   Sad, because I think Rosen has the talent to be something special.   And we've watched countless Bills teams pass up talent over the years because of coaching philosophies that ultimately didn't get the job done.   

 

Maybe McD will break that pattern and Allen will be the next Jim Kelly/Cam Newton.   I hope so.   But McBeane's legacy will always be linked to how their decision plays out...

[Aussie Joe]

14 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

No Mayfield or Rosen on the board - really. Both must have been too accurate as passers, no challenge there.

 

Yeah I’m not buying this one... 

 

I can’t  believe If they missed out on Allen than they aren’t trying to get Rosen and plan B is reaching 2 rounds to take Rudolph at 22..

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I hate that they allowed the Jets to get Darnold. I can't get over it, probably won't all offseason.

[Coach Tuesday]

I bet "taken off their board" is not the right phrasing - I HIGHLY doubt that Rosen and Mayfield were categorically removed from the Bills' draft board, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had other, non-QB players ranked higher at 12 and perhaps even 22.

[mannc]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

I bet "taken off their board" is not the right phrasing - I HIGHLY doubt that Rosen and Mayfield were categorically removed from the Bills' draft board, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had other, non-QB players ranked higher at 12 and perhaps even 22.

I agree.  If the Cards had traded up for Allen, and Rosen was still on the board at 12, there’s no way Beane passes on him.  In fact, I’m pretty sure he trades with the raiders to take him at 10.

[billieve420]

48 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

After the draft no reason to lie. He said absolutely Rosen was considered when asked. So yep debunks the entire Rosen was OFF THEIR Board 

 

Well of course there is a reason to lie they don't want to make the kid look bad in public. Beane/McDermott look to avoid controversy and keep things as vanilla as possible. So it is not a surprise. Bills got their guy no reason to even discuss the other QBs at this point in their eyes.

[White Linen]

40 minutes ago, Canadian Bills Fan said:

 

 

The GM wouldn't need to lie once the draft is over and he had his pick of both QB's

 

I wouldn't call it lying but all GM's are overly considerate when asked why they didn't draft another player they could have.  It lends to not knowing their actual feelings about the player.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

48 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

IDK man. If Daboll brought his Bama offense here, Mayfield would be a great pick. I think that they are not going to run a "Bama college, flash in the pan offense. "That is what Mayfield is going to need. I think they want to run a real, big boy, NFL offense and that is why Allen makes sense more than Mayfield. 

NFL is headed for a showdown of philosophies on one side we got the old traditionalists on the other the new age analytical approach were there using there players to there strengths . Traditional is not bad considering its basically won most if not all the titles . But is that about to change? we just seen Philly knock the old champion out!.

 

The Bills & McBeane are definitely looking like there on the traditional side of things . This offseason has been basically about stopping the run and strengthening the middle or our D.  On Offense we took the perfect traditional QB the big pocket passer that can throw a ball a mile.  We are definitely going against the grain because the game is moving towards a quick tempo quick horizontal passing gm. So we will see if the big boy offensive approach works.

 

  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

 

Well of course there is a reason to lie they don't want to make the kid look bad in public. Beane/McDermott look to avoid controversy and keep things as vanilla as possible. So it is not a surprise. Bills got their guy no reason to even discuss the other QBs at this point in their eyes.

 

Which in my view gives them about 1000x more class than Cleveland.  If you got your guy why did on others?

[eball]

26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You pretty much described Eli.

 

Did I?  Eli is a laid back CA kid?  Here's one comment I found from Eli's draft profile in about 15 seconds of looking:

 

Tough under pressure, standing tall and taking shots until he can find his target...Outstanding competitor who is a leader by example.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

NFL is headed for a showdown of philosophies on one side we got the old traditionalists on the other the new age analytical approach were there using there players to there strengths . Traditional is not bad considering its basically won most if not all the titles . But is that about to change? we just seen Philly knock the old champion out!.

 

The Bills & McBeane are definitely looking like there on the traditional side of things . This offseason has been basically about stopping the run and strengthening the middle or our D.  On Offense we took the perfect traditional QB the big pocket passer that can throw a ball a mile.  We are definitely going against the grain because the game is moving towards a quick tempo quick horizontal passing gm. So we will see if the big boy offensive approach works.

 

  

I just don't love the horizontal passing game in the NFL. Guys on defense are just too damn fast. All those quick screens and RPOs just will not work when defensive coordinators get caught up. I still think you need to win the traditional way, run the ball, stop the run, stretch the field vertically, create turnovers, sack the quarterback. 

 

Stretching the defense vertically is a way to beat the speed on defense, if my guy can throw it far. Stretching the defense horizontally is very limited because the sideline acts as a barrier, defenses are too fast. Just my opinion, but I'm a traditionalist in that way. I think the entire game is built on the idea of getting to the end zone gaining yards in a north-south way. Otherwise, they would have built the field differently.

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Gunner, What's the big surprise?

 

I don't know that it is a huge surprise. I simply repeat what he told me.  

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

So the quarterback our team considered to be the best in the draft now plays in our division for the next 20 years. 

 

Exactly,  just when we're about to say good riddens to Brady, along comes Darnold to the Jets....unbelievable!

[BillsFan17]

28 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I don't get why Rosen's concussion history is not more troubling to people. He's one big hit away from potentially being done.

You dont know that for sure, moreover, Allen had broken the same collar bone twice. Also had a shoulder injury that forced him to miss time this very season.

 

Mayfield habs concussion among other injuries dating back to Texas Tech.

 

None of these kids were uber clean specs. They all came with some sort of flag.

 

However, to act like we know the medicals is far fetched. Especially when we have people like Tom Brady who apparently has hidden his concussion problems.

[Domdab99]

BS 

 

If it's true, we have idiots running the organization.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

6 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just don't love the horizontal passing game in the NFL. Guys on defense are just too damn fast. All those quick screens and RPOs just will not work when defensive coordinators get caught up. I still think you need to win the traditional way, run the ball, stop the run, stretch the field vertically, create turnovers, sack the quarterback. 

 

Stretching the defense vertically is a way to beat the speed on defense, if my guy can throw it far. Stretching the defense horizontally is very limited because the sideline acts as a barrier, defenses are too fast. Just my opinion, but I'm a traditionalist in that way. I think the entire game is built on the idea of getting to the end zone gaining yards in a north-south way. Otherwise, they would have built the field differently.

I can't disagree with your opinion knowing the traditional way has won the majority of the time.  But the problem i feel with traditional football is pigeon holing your players into a box. I hope at least Mcd is flexible when it comes to this but if anything we learned last season its either his box or the door.

[YoloinOhio]

It was reported that the Bills were doubling back on Rosen the night before the draft making sure they were clear on his personality and had his contact info for draft night 

[Wayne Arnold]

9 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Exactly,  just when we're about to say good riddens to Brady, along comes Darnold to the Jets....unbelievable!

 

Fortunately, I don't see that "rip my own mother's heart out of her chest and eat it for a win" mentality in Darnold that exists in Brady. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just don't love the horizontal passing game in the NFL. Guys on defense are just too damn fast. All those quick screens and RPOs just will not work when defensive coordinators get caught up. I still think you need to win the traditional way, run the ball, stop the run, stretch the field vertically, create turnovers, sack the quarterback. 

 

Stretching the defense vertically is a way to beat the speed on defense, if my guy can throw it far. Stretching the defense horizontally is very limited because the sideline acts as a barrier, defenses are too fast. Just my opinion, but I'm a traditionalist in that way. I think the entire game is built on the idea of getting to the end zone gaining yards in a north-south way. Otherwise, they would have built the field differently.

 

Hmmm. I'm not sold. I think the NFL is now all about match ups and those matchup advantages for an offense are often in those short and intermediate zones and by getting the ball into the hands of playmakers horizontally. Your backs, slot receivers and tight ends against linebackers. Of course you need a vertical threat but I don't think you can win in the modern NFL with the vertical game as the key base of your offense. Part of that is undoubtedly protection issues due to the overall poor standard of offensive line play. It's about getting the ball out of the Quarterback's hands quickly and into the hands of playmakers in space wherever that space may be.  

[Dr. Who]

14 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I just don't love the horizontal passing game in the NFL. Guys on defense are just too damn fast. All those quick screens and RPOs just will not work when defensive coordinators get caught up. I still think you need to win the traditional way, run the ball, stop the run, stretch the field vertically, create turnovers, sack the quarterback. 

 

Stretching the defense vertically is a way to beat the speed on defense, if my guy can throw it far. Stretching the defense horizontally is very limited because the sideline acts as a barrier, defenses are too fast. Just my opinion, but I'm a traditionalist in that way. I think the entire game is built on the idea of getting to the end zone gaining yards in a north-south way. Otherwise, they would have built the field differently.

The traditional way also should open up space for the running game.  

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hmmm. I'm not sold. I think the NFL is now all about match ups and those matchup advantages for an offense are often in those short and intermediate zones and by getting the ball into the hands of playmakers horizontally. Your backs, slot receivers and tight ends against linebackers. Of course you need a vertical threat but I don't think you can win in the modern NFL with the vertical game as the key base of your offense. Part of that is undoubtedly protection issues due to the overall poor standard of offensive line play. It's about getting the ball out of the Quarterback's hands quickly and into the hands of playmakers in space wherever that space may be.  

Well, I don't disagree really, but I don't think the vertical passing game is a completely obsolete dinosaur.  Ideally, one has a mix of both.

[ddaryl]

1 hour ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Fair enough. I just don't have a problem with this at all. Strong defense, big armed quarterback who can make big plays in the passing game. They were in the Super bowl a couple of years ago, and since they drafted Cam, they have been a very competitive team every year. They have a quarterback who can do things no one else can (until now maybe). Lots of team speed, they create turnovers. I love it. 

 

 

I mean if it works more power to us.. However it does happen to have me questioning the dynamics of our coaching staff. You have to be able to adjust regulalry to the game.. SO these ocnstant parallels to Carolina just make we wonder can they do something besides be Carolina North

[PromoTheRobot]

13 minutes ago, BillsFan17 said:

You dont know that for sure, moreover, Allen had broken the same collar bone twice. Also had a shoulder injury that forced him to miss time this very season.

 

Mayfield habs concussion among other injuries dating back to Texas Tech.

 

None of these kids were uber clean specs. They all came with some sort of flag.

 

However, to act like we know the medicals is far fetched. Especially when we have people like Tom Brady who apparently has hidden his concussion problems.

Except broken bones are not concussions. And Rosen had two concussions last season. Getting three in one year and you are playing with fire.

[MrEpsYtown]

11 minutes ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I can't disagree with your opinion knowing the traditional way has won the majority of the time.  But the problem i feel with traditional football is pigeon holing your players into a box. I hope at least Mcd is flexible when it comes to this but if anything we learned last season its either his box or the door.

 

I think there can be flexibility within a scheme. For example, there are probably going to be some plays that only Allen can make. If God forbid Peterman starts a game, the game plan that week would probably focus more on short and intermediate routes. Anyway, I just think teh RPO stuff is way too simple for the NFL. It is used in high school and colleges to take advantage of speed on the outside and stretch the defense horizontally. That just doesn't work when linebackers run 4.4...JMO. 

 

I think there will be a little RPO stuff in our offense to take advantage of teams with OLBs like Lorenzo Alexander....

Edited May 3, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[BuffaloHokie13]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Except broken bones are not concussions. And Rosen had two concussions last season. Getting three in one year and you are playing with fire.

Didn't Mayfield also have 2 in like a 3 game stretch?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

The traditional way also should open up space for the running game.  

Well, I don't disagree really, but I don't think the vertical passing game is a completely obsolete dinosaur.  Ideally, one has a mix of both.

 

Of course you need a mix.... but I don't think teams win anymore by simply running the ball and taking their shots.  

[billsfan_34]

1 hour ago, aristocrat said:

allen's biggest chance at success will be loading the team with talent.  big defense big run game and the kid will have a much easier time developing. 

Amen!!!

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Didn't Mayfield also have 2 in like a 3 game stretch?

 

Yep. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

Didn't Mayfield also have 2 in like a 3 game stretch?

I only knew about Rosen. But, again, concussions are cumulative. And the brain never really heals from them. Getting a several in a short span is never good.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

I only knew about Rosen. But, again, concussions are cumulative. And the brain never really heals from them. Getting a several in a short span is never good.

 

That is because the media only seemed interested in reporting the Rosen concussions - it became part of the narrative around him very early in the way it never did with Mayfield.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

That is because the media only seemed interested in reporting the Rosen concussions - it became part of the narrative around him very early in the way it never did with Mayfield.  

So what are you suggesting exactly? That people were trying to sink Rosen?

[GunnerBill]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

So what are you suggesting exactly? That people were trying to sink Rosen?

 

I'm not really suggesting anything. It is just a fact that he had the same number of college concussion as Mayfield but his were mentioned a lot more. Not sure what was behind that, but that is what happened.  

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

So the quarterback our team considered to be the best in the draft now plays in our division for the next 20 years. 

 

Turns the ball over too much.....does this sound familiar to another highly drafted USC QB drafted by the jets?

[MrEpsYtown]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Hmmm. I'm not sold. I think the NFL is now all about match ups and those matchup advantages for an offense are often in those short and intermediate zones and by getting the ball into the hands of playmakers horizontally. Your backs, slot receivers and tight ends against linebackers. Of course you need a vertical threat but I don't think you can win in the modern NFL with the vertical game as the key base of your offense. Part of that is undoubtedly protection issues due to the overall poor standard of offensive line play. It's about getting the ball out of the Quarterback's hands quickly and into the hands of playmakers in space wherever that space may be.  

 

I tend to disagree. The Patriots have won over the years without amazing receivers and such. They run a very specific passing game with complicated route trees and things of that nature. They have the GOAT basically, who excels at making good decisions in that scheme. Yeah sometimes they isolate Gronk and take a shot, but that isn't their offense. I think that is what wins football games consistently, finding holes in the defense. I don't want my entire offense built on matchups, because when your stud receiver is hurt, you are left with no offense.  I think you look for mismatches and matchups pre snap and take advantage accordingly. I feel a lot better with an E-P passing attack that utilizes play action and such over an RPO offense in which the quarterback looks at one guy and makes a simple decision based on that one read. That works in the short term...RG3, Kaepernick, Watson. Tyrod...Mayfield. But defenses catch up. The game is designed to go vertical. Defenses use the sideline to scheme all of the time. You simply run out of room going sideways. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[Soda Popinski]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is because the media only seemed interested in reporting the Rosen concussions - it became part of the narrative around him very early in the way it never did with Mayfield.  

Mayfield had a whole different narrative the media was loving to report.  

[theRalph]

What the Bills no doubt recognize - and what many fans, apparently, do not, is the fact that you can't evaluate College QBs with analytics unless you go far deeper into the numbers than these lame-brain draftniks that craft their careers by pushing their nonsense onto unsuspecting pinheads like Mike Schopp. As much as the likes of Schopp like to say that NFL teams don't know how to evaluate talent, the fact is scouts know a lot more about it than do the number crunching analytics-nerds we listened to for months. 

 

The Bills avoided Josh Rosen not unlike how you or I avoid touching a red stovetop. Rosen himself demonstrated the reasoning with his post-selection rant. 

But the Bills, behind closed doors, are snickering at the press on Allen. They know what they have and will unleash it on the league soon enough. 

 

Until then, here's an important safety tip: The instant any of these talent-evaluator hacks that are paraded across our airwaves make a connection between 56% and accuracy, immediately turn them off. And if anyone wishes to debate the merit of using 56% as a measure of Josh Allen's accuracy, bring it...