Kaiir’s game

[bobobonators]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

He seems to get beat often and easily. I’m still not sold. 

That’s where I am. He’s just as likely to completely blow a coverage as he is to get an INT. He seems to lack game awareness - like he doesn’t know where he needs to be or what he needs to do on any given play. 

[DJB]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

He seems to get beat often and easily. I’m still not sold. 

Hes also useless in the run game. Pretty scared to stick his nose in there 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I have never seen a horse collar defensive holding/PI.  Deante Johnson gave him an interesting stare.

 

Yeah, it looked to me as though Deonte was telling him off.

[Royale with Cheese]

He gets left easily too often....but then he will make the big play.

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

So the PI was really bad, but he made up for it with the pick and almost had another one! I thought he had a pretty good game. Granted there’s a huge difference between Mahomes and Rudolph, but I have confidence he can go in and makes some plays if he needs to play next week. 
 

I’m trying to remember any other plays that caused concern and am not thinking of any. They needed him to step up and he did, props to him 

Iirc Elam intercepted Pat in the end zone at arrow head in his rookie season, 

[PonyBoy]

2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

So Elam is 'Gallant' to Gardiner's 'Goofus'?

*
Only old people and teef will get that reference. 🤔

 

Highlights magazine baby!

My dentist always had them in his office 😀

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

16 minutes ago, DJB said:

Hes also useless in the run game. Pretty scared to stick his nose in there 

 

i thought he had a couple decent run fits after he settled in.  

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

He picked off Mahomes last year in the regular season.  He also had a key pick in the Wild Card game last year just like this year.  He's a very frustrating player to watch because you can see the flashes of what made him a first round pick.  

 

Yep. He played the INT perfectly. That is a play Benford or Jackson can't make. They don't have the athelticism to stay with Johnson there and be in position to undercut it. He remains the most talented corner on the Bills (with the possible exception of Tre White if we ever see him healthy again). 

 

But on the flip side he just isn't a natural fit in this scheme and so he makes mistakes the other guys don't make and he can't be trusted to do the fundamentals that the scheme requires as consistently. There might be a moment where it all clicks for Elam and if it does he will be a high end NFL corner. But it might never click and he may become an Eli Apple type former 1st rounder who bounces around as a talented but unreliable short term depth piece.

 

[Freddie's Dead]

Freiermuth did not get the Angry Run, so Kaiir's got that going for him, which is nice.

[JohnNord]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

He seems to get beat often and easily. I’m still not sold. 

To be fair, after the INT when was he beat?

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

3 hours ago, Limeaid said:

Kaiir Elam seems like Sauce without allowance by referees for extra contact.

It is weird that certain young dbs are just allowed to operate without the rules applying lol 

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

To be fair, after the INT when was he beat?

Exactly.  It seems like people reaurrected their observations from 2022 and repeated them here.  We've only had one game to watch him, and what I saw seemed encouraging. 

 

If he was so easy to beat, why didn't the Steelers attack him?  

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, pocoboy said:

 

Officials seem to put targets on certain guy's backs, and Elam may be one of them. There's a lot of contact in the defensive backfield every game that gets ignored. It's really difficult to take anything to do with officiating seriously.

 

To me the situation seems like a 1st rounder who thought he should be gifted opening day, got in McDermott's doghouse, then injuries & solid play from Benford pushed him off the depth chart. Has a real chance to show he can contribute and/or rehabilitate value to find another opportunity elsewhere in 2024.

 

Elam has a target on his back because he's not subtle about his grabbiness.  He's not running step for step and sliding a little arm around the guy's waist out of the ref's vision or committing a jersey grab that's hidden between his body and the receivers.

 

He's getting beaten by two steps because good NFL WR are successfully juking him, then he tries to make up for it by reaching out and using their jersey as a leash.

 

It IS difficult to take officiating seriously, but the stuff Elam is doing is slam-dunk.

 

The thing that bothers me most about Elam is that he seems to shirk physical contact.  He got run over pretty good yesterday afternoon.  5'9" 180 Cam Lewis and 5'11" Dane Jackson out-thump him regularly and so can Damar Hamlin who's like the same size. 

 

Pacheco runs like a junkyard dog that hasn't been fed in a week and the DB is a steak dinner.  We can't have a CB who plays like Wiley Coyote when too many Chiefs players can say "Beep! Beep!"

[JohnNord]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  It seems like people reaurrected their observations from 2022 and repeated them here.  We've only had one game to watch him, and what I saw seemed encouraging. 

 

If he was so easy to beat, why didn't the Steelers attack him?  

I just pulled up YouTube TV and went back and watched after the INT.  He doesn’t play man so it’s hard to know exactly what his responsibilities in zone are as opposed to other players.  But he didn’t really many plays where he straight up got beat.  
 

Pittsburgh seemed to target Dane Jackson more often.  So everyone saying he gives up easy catch is basing that on his past and not what we saw last night.  

[Success]

Getting bowled over didn't bother me.  He set up to be in good position for the tackle - but it was a mismatch, and the receiver had momentum.

 

The PI bothered me, but some good observations on here about how it's a TD if he didn't.  Still, he got beat.

 

The INT was special, imo.  He turned around right when the ball was there.  Really quick processing and reflexes there.

 

And that might be who he is.  He does seem to have a knack for getting picks - but also misses some plays.  It's not a bad trade-off.

 

[transient]

3 hours ago, GoBills! said:

I think with enough playing time he can be a nice back up or maybe switch to safety. He needs to tackle better but his hand eye coordination and catch ability is there. 

Why would you want a safety who can't tackle?

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.  It seems like people reaurrected their observations from 2022 and repeated them here.  We've only had one game to watch him, and what I saw seemed encouraging. 

 

If he was so easy to beat, why didn't the Steelers attack him?  

 

You're asking a good question and one I personally, can't answer without all-22.  I don't know who was covering whom.  I'm very up-front that I'm not someone who can look at the meagre glimpses the network allows us pre-and post-snap before they focus in on the QB, and read out the coverage.  You gotta ask someone who knows ball at a higher level. 

 

I can tell you that Rudolph's bread-and-butter in his stint as a starter this year has been short passes with YAC.  Going into yesterday's game, a whopping 60% of his passing yards were YAC.  And with the Bills missing their starting MLB, using their 3rd string OLB, and missing their nickle corner, if I were Eddie Faulkner I would be driving into the demonstrated strength of the game which got them there, vs. the apparent glaring weakness of playing a guy who just got off his couch at MLB and backups at OLB and nickle.  And that's the short passing game.

[Mr. WEO]

50 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

The Bills really need to put oven mitts on him at the start of OTCs next season.  He has got the "grabby habit" and he needs to be forced out of it.

 

To be fair, Rudolph was really slinging it yesterday.  He had his opportunity and he was really taking advantage.  He made some outstanding throws.

 

 

I do know that Next Sunday's ref crew apparently calls the largest number of DH penalties in the league and we can not afford that.

 

It is pretty clear that the Bills receivers are coached to take a penalty if they have to instead of being beaten for a score.

 

The play where he let himself get run over concerns me more.

 

Elam gets grabby not because he's coached to be, but because he get's burned so often.  

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, fasteddie said:

I was at the stadium so you would not see this on tv, but on one play, he was playing the outside receiver with another in the slot. At the snap, he decided to run straight past the receiver, straight up field. He was covering air, while the receiver made the catch.  I have no clue of what he was thinking. 

I know exactly the play you're talking about.  It was like what the hell is he doing?  His man skills are good. Everything else is terrible.  He's not surviving next year.

4 hours ago, CNYfan said:

He got bowled over easily; had the egregious PI and then everyone knew they would continue to attack him.  

Then he intercepted that next play and it was mostly quiet after that.  

I did notice a certain unwillingness to tackle at least once later in the game, and I think I saw why he has been inactive.   

 

His terrible tackling or willingness not to was what stood out.  I don't know if they are willing to teach him something a 1st round db should already know. 

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, dorquemada said:

Given that he's been riding the pine allyear he was a pleasant surprise

 

I gotta like the kid for this:

 

 

And maybe I need to give him a couple drive allowance for being rusty.

[Ga boy]

19 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Elam has a target on his back because he's not subtle about his grabbiness.  He's not running step for step and sliding a little arm around the guy's waist out of the ref's vision or committing a jersey grab that's hidden between his body and the receivers.

 

He's getting beaten by two steps because good NFL WR are successfully juking him, then he tries to make up for it by reaching out and using their jersey as a leash.

 

It IS difficult to take officiating seriously, but the stuff Elam is doing is slam-dunk.

 

The thing that bothers me most about Elam is that he seems to shirk physical contact.  He got run over pretty good yesterday afternoon.  5'9" 180 Cam Lewis and 5'11" Dane Jackson out-thump him regularly and so can Damar Hamlin who's like the same size. 

 

Pacheco runs like a junkyard dog that hasn't been fed in a week and the DB is a steak dinner.  We can't have a CB who plays like Wiley Coyote when too many Chiefs players can say "Beep! Beep!"

Beck:  love those thumperisms, gotta be able to thump.  I agree that is an issue for Elam.  I never saw Tre as a thumper.  Sauce definitely isn’t a thumper.  It’s the technique of going low and taking the legs out.  Against that TE last night, none of our CBs could’ve done much better.  I think Elam’s athletic ability will shine next year.  We can only hope.

[warrior9]

He is so hard to evaluate because he doesn't get a chance. 

 

I feel like he's a guy that just needs to play to figure it out and go through some growing pains. The post season isn't where you want to really test that out but you can tell that his feel for the game is good but he is rusty. 

 

He makes great plays and he makes bone headed plays... It's a sign of someone that needs to develop and learn how to play the game at the NFL level.. There's only one way to do that. 

[Warcodered]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

how does he seem anything like one of the best CBs in the league??  that's nuts!!

 

On his PI-he was beat after 2 steps and decided it was best to simply grab the receiver by the jersey.

Not for nothing but in the redzone that's exactly what he should do.

[Logic]

Just now, warrior9 said:

He is so hard to evaluate because he doesn't get a chance. 

 

I feel like he's a guy that just needs to play to figure it out and go through some growing pains. The post season isn't where you want to really test that out but you can tell that his feel for the game is good but he is rusty. 

 

He makes great plays and he makes bone headed plays... It's a sign of someone that needs to develop and learn how to play the game at the NFL level.. There's only one way to do that. 

I agree with this 100%.

What's weird about Elam is this: He has all the physical talent needed to be a good NFL starting cornerback. Based on what his coaches and teammates say, he also has the burning desire to be great and is a very hard worker.

His sole liability thus far would seem to be his slowness in picking up the nuances of the zone scheme that the Bills run.

How much he's able to learn and assimilate into this scheme vs how much he'll just forever lack the instinct necessary to excel in it, I can't really say..

But one thing's for sure: If he's to have any hope of succeeding here, he needs to be on the field. Practice reps alone won't do it. As Warrior9 said, the playoffs aren't really the place you want a guy to be learning on the job, but the Bills may not have a choice. Year three will really be make or break for Kaiir Elam.

As for yesterday's performance: up and down, but in my opinion, there was more good than bad. After that first series where the Steelers picked on him, he acquitted himself pretty well. The interception, the second near interception, and a handful of good coverage snaps. Yes, he got beat a time or two, but nothing awful. Yes, he got bowled over by a big receiver. But all in all? Encouraging day for Elam, I thought.

[dave mcbride]

53 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

To be fair, after the INT when was he beat?

Regularly all game. He was playing off a lot and couldn't time his closing, so the separation was generally pretty substantial. He almost had a second pick, but that was a busted play because the receiver fell down. Still, he made a nice play on that one. He's just not very trustworthy on a regular basis. He gets spun around a lot.

[warrior9]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I agree with this 100%.

What's weird about Elam is this: He has all the physical talent needed to be a good NFL starting cornerback. Based on what his coaches and teammates say, he also has the burning desire to be great and is a very hard worker.

His sole liability thus far would seem to be his slowness in picking up the nuances of the zone scheme that the Bills run.

How much he's able to learn and assimilate into this scheme vs how much he'll just forever lack the instinct necessary to excel in it, I can't really say..

But one thing's for sure: If he's to have any hope of succeeding here, he needs to be on the field. Practice reps alone won't do it. As Warrior9 said, the playoffs aren't really the place you want a guy to be learning on the job, but the Bills may not have a choice. Year three will really be make or break for Kaiir Elam.

As for yesterday's performance: up and down, but in my opinion, there was more good than bad. After that first series where the Steelers picked on him, he acquitted himself pretty well. The interception, the second near interception, and a handful of good coverage snaps. Yes, he got beat a time or two, but nothing awful. Yes, he got bowled over by a big receiver. But all in all? Encouraging day for Elam, I thought.

Yepp. 

 

I truly feel that if he doesn't work out here, he will be a STUD for another team... KC would scoop him up, put him at the line and let him abuse your WR. 

[JohnNord]

13 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Regularly all game. He was playing off a lot and couldn't time his closing, so the separation was generally pretty substantial. He almost had a second pick, but that was a busted play because the receiver fell down. Still, he made a nice play on that one. He's just not very trustworthy on a regular basis. He gets spun around a lot.

I went back and watched every Pittsburgh possession.  You are right he played off a lot but I couldn’t find many opportunities where he was beat.  I think overall he did a good enough where he can fill in if necessary 

[LarryMadman]

3 hours ago, MPL said:

I don't know if Elam will ever live up to his draft spot. I don't know if he will ever become a starting CB on this team. The way things have gone for Kaiir this year being a healthy scratch for much of the season... I know that can be a very difficult thing to overcome mentally. And then with the way things were going when he got in the game, getting run over, getting beat bad on routes, to come back from all that and make that play at that moment? I couldn't have been happier for Kaiir. I don't know if he's going to turn into a good football player... but as a human? I learned a lot about Kaiir last night, and I liked what I saw. 

Was injured in training camp, torn ligament in his ankle or something. At one point tried to play through it and it didnt work out well. Dude has been hurt all year. 

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Regularly all game. He was playing off a lot and couldn't time his closing, so the separation was generally pretty substantial. He almost had a second pick, but that was a busted play because the receiver fell down. Still, he made a nice play on that one. He's just not very trustworthy on a regular basis. He gets spun around a lot.

 

THIS has always been his biggest issue. He isn't the best tackler, but you don't draft 1st round corners to tackle running backs you draft them to cover receivers and his transitions - from drop to close or from showing press to playing off - are the thing that are keeping him off the field and causing him problems when he is on the field.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Elam gets grabby not because he's coached to be, but because he get's burned so often.  

 

I agree with you that most of the time Elam is grabby because he's been toasted, but McDermott was explicitly asked about a DPI on someone who was beaten during the Dolphins game (may have been Benford) and he specifically said that a DPI is better than giving up a TD.  So read between the lines there.

[Shaw66]

41 minutes ago, Logic said:

But one thing's for sure: If he's to have any hope of succeeding here, he needs to be on the field. Practice reps alone won't do it. 

Love you, man, but I think this way off.  In McDermott world, and most other coaches, too, you have to do it in practice before you get to do it on the field.  That's why Benford beat him out.  Players EARN their playing time.  Elam is where he is be cause he hasn't shown in practice that he can do it.  

 

Shorter is another example.  Isabella another. Williams another. 

 

If you can't do it in practice, there's no reason for the coaches to put you in.

 

Shakir, Benford, Torrence, Kincaid all are guys who did it in practice first.  

[Solomon Grundy]

5 hours ago, CNYfan said:

He got bowled over easily; had the egregious PI and then everyone knew they would continue to attack him.  

Then he intercepted that next play and it was mostly quiet after that.  

I did notice a certain unwillingness to tackle at least once later in the game, and I think I saw why he has been inactive.   

 

I believe he was 3rd or 4th in tackles/assists yesterday

Edited January 16 by Solomon Grundy

[Shaw66]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

THIS has always been his biggest issue. He isn't the best tackler, but you don't draft 1st round corners to tackle running backs you draft them to cover receivers and his transitions - from drop to close or from showing press to playing off - are the thing that are keeping him off the field and causing him problems when he is on the field.

In your world maybe, but not McDermott world.  If you're a corner for the Bills, you have to tackle running backs, and you have to know and execute the pass defense scheme, which is a zone scheme.  The Bills drafted hum because he was talented and they believed he could learn and execute the scheme.

Edited January 16 by Shaw66

[Logic]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Love you, man, but I think this way off.  In McDermott world, and most other coaches, too, you have to do it in practice before you get to do it on the field.  That's why Benford beat him out.  Players EARN their playing time.  Elam is where he is be cause he hasn't shown in practice that he can do it.  

 

Shorter is another example.  Isabella another. Williams another. 

 

If you can't do it in practice, there's no reason for the coaches to put you in.

 

Shakir, Benford, Torrence, Kincaid all are guys who did it in practice first.  

I agree with this assertion. Elam DOES need to earn his time on the field, just as all other players do and should.

However, I stand by the notion that the improvement he needs in order to take his game to the next level will only come with live bullets, not in practice.

It's like the difference between sitting a rookie quarterback for a full season vs letting him play and get real experience. The looks and intensity and opportunities he sees in practice simply cannot rival what he will see in a real game where everyone's playing for keeps.

It's not that I'm saying Elam should skip past the "earning it in practice" phase, of course he shouldn't. I'm just saying that what he really needs (in my opinion), can only be gained by playing in real NFL games.

In his rookie season, for instance, I felt like he got better and better the more he played, until -- by the end of the season -- he was starting to show flashes of being a difference maker.

Either way, unless the Bills cornerback room gets healthy fast, the Bills may have no choice in the matter. Elam may HAVE to play.

[Stranded in Boston]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

As someone pointed out, the play he got run over on was an obvious mismatch as it was happening.  I didn't know who was out there, but I knew he was about to get blasted.  It was ugly, but it wasn't surprising.   A tackle there would have been a great, great play, and a missed tackle was the likely outcome for most corners.  

 

Shaw, all good points. Elam had ups and downs last night, but it seems that a lot of (younger?) fans expect too much from young players. I recall plenty of Bills' first-rounders taking a year or two to develop -- Eric Moulds, John Fina and Henry Jones spring to mind.

Also, I sure agree with you on that play where Elam got run over. Come on -- Freiermuth is an absolute beast of a TE , outweighing Elam by almost seventy lbs, and running with a full head of steam. No way Elam stops him straight-on short of the first-down marker on that play; it was obvious in real time. At least the kid stuck his nose in there and slowed him up a bit for the safeties to make the tackle. 

Edited January 16 by Stranded in Boston

[ricojes]

48 minutes ago, LarryMadman said:

Was injured in training camp, torn ligament in his ankle or something. At one point tried to play through it and it didnt work out well. Dude has been hurt all year. 

In his post game presser he eluded to not having an explosive first step early in the year due to injury.  He apparently is healthy now, but I still wonder if he would be given a shot if not for all the injuries.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

In your world maybe, but not McDermott world.  If you're a corner for the Bills, you have to tackle running backs, and you have to know and execute the pass defense scheme, which is a zone scheme.  The Bills drafted hum because he was talented and they believed he could learn and execute the scheme.

 

Sure, you have to tackle running backs. And sure, Kaiir isn't the best at it. But that is not really what is keeping him off the field. What is keeping him off the field is the fact that has given up over a 70% completion rate to Quarterbacks in both his seasons as a Bill. And that comes down to his transitions. Could he tackle better on the outside? Sure. But if he was playing better in coverage he would be on the field. Even a coach like McDermott who wants his corners to play in run support doesn't draft a 1st round corner looking at that first and foremost. 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sure, you have to tackle running backs. And sure, Kaiir isn't the best at it. But that is not really what is keeping him off the field. What is keeping him off the field is the fact that has given up over a 70% completion rate to Quarterbacks in both his seasons as a Bill. And that comes down to his transitions. Could he tackle better on the outside? Sure. But if he was playing better in coverage he would be on the field. Even a coach like McDermott who wants his corners to play in run support doesn't draft a 1st round corner looking at that first and foremost. 

I didn't mean just run support.  I said more, including the scheme, which is what you're saying here.  They drafted him to play corner on this team, and he hasn't shown yet that he can do it.  

22 minutes ago, Logic said:

I agree with this assertion. Elam DOES need to earn his time on the field, just as all other players do and should.

However, I stand by the notion that the improvement he needs in order to take his game to the next level will only come with live bullets, not in practice.

It's like the difference between sitting a rookie quarterback for a full season vs letting him play and get real experience. The looks and intensity and opportunities he sees in practice simply cannot rival what he will see in a real game where everyone's playing for keeps.

It's not that I'm saying Elam should skip past the "earning it in practice" phase, of course he shouldn't. I'm just saying that what he really needs (in my opinion), can only be gained by playing in real NFL games.

In his rookie season, for instance, I felt like he got better and better the more he played, until -- by the end of the season -- he was starting to show flashes of being a difference maker.

Either way, unless the Bills cornerback room gets healthy fast, the Bills may have no choice in the matter. Elam may HAVE to play.

Got you.

 

He's a heckuva talent to have in reserve.  He'll be getting a crash course this week in practice.  Good thing Hill wears that ugly Dolphin color now.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

It is weird that certain young dbs are just allowed to operate without the rules applying lol 

When Woody 'Dutch' Johnson is your owner, the referees are inclined to turn a blind eye.

*
Dutch:  Wooden Shoes.

             Wooden Head.

             Wouldn't Listen.

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, CNYfan said:

He got bowled over easily; had the egregious PI and then everyone knew they would continue to attack him.  

Then he intercepted that next play and it was mostly quiet after that.  

I did notice a certain unwillingness to tackle at least once later in the game, and I think I saw why he has been inactive.   

 

I mean he was a small DB who got trucked by a big TE, it happens.  Allen trucks LBs and DL guys as a QB for example.  So I think people made a little too much out of that play.

 

PI was bad as it’s been an issue, but the INT made up for it and then he almost had a second INT later in the game.  
 

All in all, I think the PI was the only negative play really and he had some other big plays.  Plus, it felt like they stopped going at him too and started targeting Cam Lewis who was a liability.

Edited January 16 by Alphadawg7