Joe Marino

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

This is where I don’t know what to do. 
 

Both first and second down had guys wide open, uncovered. I expect Derek Carr or Ryan Tannehill to just “run the play that’s called” as Josh put it in his post game presser. But if your guy is top 5, you have to know not to just chuck it up there. You have to see the play beyond the play call. Just because a call is designed to go to “x” doesn’t mean you have to throw it there if he’s covered and others are open. 
 

And if others are open. Is the problem still the call?

 

Part of me is pointing the finger but also I think those are legitimate questions. 

 

The 2nd down obviously Allen threw an awful INT.

 

The 1st down though I believe he is just making the read and executing the play as designed. I am guessing the rules of that play called for a shot to Harty if he ends up in man coverage with no safety help. It was not forced into double coverage so I am inclined to believe the read there was correct. So the problem with that play call was actually Dorsey. He has a habit of dialing up shot plays at times when we really need to keep our offense in rhythm, and I don't think we've hit a single one of them for a completion this year.

 

I've said before that we need to do what the Chiefs did last year, stop even bothering to call and throw deep passes. Recognize that our personnel isn't built for that kind of play. But I don't think Dorsey has a good understanding of what his players do well, so he just calls random plays and that's why we always look so disjointed for long periods of time.

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

Didn’t notice him being the guy they were going to on the INT and the grounding call?  His inability to read situations makes him more risk than reward.  It’s time people see him for what he is, a liability.

He was targeted twice. I don’t think those two targets cost us the game.

 

The decision to go to him on the INT was pretty bad. 
 

Blame him for the “grounding”. Sure. But it didn’t cost us this game. 

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think some of the issue is Dorsey, some is offensive personnel, but I also think Josh has been figured out a bit. He’s a brute force kind of QB, and when things get tight he doubles down on it. 
 

I was driving this am and caught a quick CIN quote post game on NFL radio and he said something like “we just tried to keep the play in front of us, take away the big play, force them to drive the field, don’t let Josh escape the pocket”.

 

Dorsey needs to find a way to get Josh going when teams do this. But man, it sucks to hear teams say stuff like this. This is where we just beat ourselves. Take what they give you!

 

I said it in the GDT but at the moment Joe Burrow pre-snap is streets ahead of Allen. That they are rated so closely shows you how mecurial Josh Allen can be once the ball is snapped. But that is a hard way to live in the NFL. I think maybe a different OC could help him with that. Simplify some of what he is reading, maybe Daboll was better at that. But Josh has gotta start winning a few snaps before the ball is in play.

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

 

This is why I'm arguing for a total reset. This team is staring down the very real barrel of .500-ish football for this season, next and possibly the year after.

 

I agree. I’d be tempted to keep Beane as critical as I’ve been. Terry Pegula making major decisions is terrifying.

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

That's exactly why change is needed Gunner. You can see the offense struggle week after week. Lack of creativity, game planning, schemes, and talent. Dorsey sucks and McD is clueless and hands off. 

 

Not sure how any fan can't see that the McD era is crumbling before our eyes. It's never been able to recover from 13 seconds. The call for change will get stronger and it should. 

 

Last night was nothing new. Once again the defense couldn't come close to stopping or containing the Bengals. Bengals easily scored on their first two possessions. Very common theme of a McD defense to start out slow and give the opposing offenses a TD or two. You are not going to win doing that against good teams. The Bengals had the confidence to take the ball after winning the coin toss. That told me a lot about what they thought about the Buffalo D. Not much. The defense played poorly in the first half.

 

Then when the D needed a stop it couldn't give the offense a chance. Was anyone really surprised by the results? I wasn't. 

 

All in all the defense was ok but not nearly good enough. It amazes me how Bills fans continue to think the Bills D can get it done. Where was the pass rush? McD had to blitz to generate pressure. Everyone knows Burrow will toast you when you blitz. That's pretty much what happened. Truthfully, the Bengals offense was sloppy at times. The defensive injuries are too big to overcome. Why others can't see it is beyond me. 

 

Offensively, the Bills shot their load on the first drive. Looked great, fast paced, spreading the ball around, and great rhythm. Worked so great that they abandoned it for much of the game. Still shaking my head about that. McD is so knee deep in the defense that he's incapable of giving much input to the offense. Maybe I'm wrong here.inobiw I'm right in saying the offense isn't good enough. Cook replaced by old man Murray, Gabe is not a WR2, Harty is a waste of space pace, and Sherfield is equally unimpressive. The merry go round of mediocre patch work wide receivers had been unsuccessful. The oline is not as good as it needs to be. Brown absolutely blows. Cook is a JAG. The only bright spot are Diggs and Kincaid. Allen continues to sputter and throw INTs. Allen is not the Allen of two years ago. He's been cut off at the knees, had trouble being patient, and struggles to read certain defenses. He's part of the problem because he has to be superman in order for the Bills to win. Yesterday, he wasn't close to being superman. Closer to wonder woman. 

 

After the Bills muss the playoffs or go one and done the fans will start to see the obvious. The writing been on the wall. You and others smarter than myself remain in denial. 

 

Next year isn't going to be better without significant changes which includes coaches. Frankly, McD will have another year of wasting Allen and Diggs. Dorsey will be his new fall guy. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

 

I wish I saw it in that black and white way. But I genuinely don't. Think it is a massive oversimplification of our problems. I will post my more considered thoughts later on when I get chance

 

[LarryMadman]

13 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Agree to disagree. Josh has the physical tools to be best all-time. Mentally, he's not it, though.

 

I would agree if he had already not disproved that when Daboll was his OC. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, LarryMadman said:

I would agree if he had already not disproved that when Daboll was his OC. 

Did he though?

 

He's never been fantastic at reading defenses pre-snap

 

[DCofNC]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

He was targeted twice. I don’t think those two targets cost us the game.

 

The decision to go to him on the INT was pretty bad. 
 

Blame him for the “grounding”. Sure. But it didn’t cost us this game. 

The grounding cost a shot at 3 points.  Could have been a huge difference in score and momentum.   The int was awful on Allen, BUT there was no effort on Davis’s part to do anything about it either.

[Not at the table Karlos]

43 minutes ago, Mango said:

There’s this sort of unspoken thing where everybody just kind of assumes that just because Josh doesn’t do something then the throw wasn’t there. 
 

I am no play call guru, but I do watch the all-22 every week and have been doing it for years. Josh taking the easy throws, and seeing the field has been something I’ve been complaining about since his first full season.

 

That 3rd drive where we threw the INT was about as egregious as it gets. Both the deep throw to Harty and the INT on second down had guys WIDE OPEN. Both throws were terrible decisions. 

Been saying the same thing. Everyone attacked me. 

[Sharky7337]

this is the guy who dedicated mutiple pod casts to why tremaine edmunds was good and we should have resigned him. He's not that inisghtful.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I wish I saw it in that black and white way. But I genuinely don't. Think it is a massive oversimplification of our problems. I will post my more considered thoughts later on when I get chance

 

I agree the problem is complex. There is no easy fix. It's black, white, gray, brown, red, and green too. 

[Roundybout]

2 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Did he though?

 

He's never been fantastic at reading defenses pre-snap

 

Sure he is, he does it in the hurry-up when Dorsey isn’t demanding the 800th shotgun draw 

[SWATeam]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it in the GDT but at the moment Joe Burrow pre-snap is streets ahead of Allen. That they are rated so closely shows you how mecurial Josh Allen can be once the ball is snapped. But that is a hard way to live in the NFL. I think maybe a different OC could help him with that. Simplify some of what he is reading, maybe Daboll was better at that. But Josh has gotta start winning a few snaps before the ball is in play.

It's amazingly frustrating because he has all the tools, including intelligence.  But he seems hell bent on relying on his physical gifts and not putting the work in to win the mental side.

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

If we are going to link investment to expected performance, then maybe it’s time for the DL, with its big money players and 1st round picks, to step up and make plays in non-blowout games.

 

I mean the D line blew up two plays to push the Bengals out of Josh Allen gifted FG range. It is not like they did nothing. But I don't disagree they have guys up there not earning their corn. They have a Von Miller problem. He looks as slow as me right now.

 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I said it in the GDT but at the moment Joe Burrow pre-snap is streets ahead of Allen. That they are rated so closely shows you how mecurial Josh Allen can be once the ball is snapped. But that is a hard way to live in the NFL. I think maybe a different OC could help him with that. Simplify some of what he is reading, maybe Daboll was better at that. But Josh has gotta start winning a few snaps before the ball is in play.

Daboll lived on running 4-5 curl routes at a time and rolling Josh right with everybody running crossers.

 

Allen was really great at it because like you said, his physical aptitude post snap is unrealistic But you can’t make a career out of two concepts. Daboll is seeing that with the NYG. 
 

I think Josh needs to have a bit less say in the organization. He picks his back ups, he picked Dorsey. We gave a PS spot to his college WR/roommate for years. We struggle at OC, WR, and back up QB. I think that goes hand in hand with Josh needing to be lead with a firmer hand.   

[Big Turk]

I feel like I am watching the offense under Chan Gailey and Ryan Fitzpatrick far too often lately. Score easily on one drive and then do nothing for extended periods, then start moving the ball later in the game again. There is no excuse to EVER look like THAT offense with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs on your team.  They better figure it out. It's honestly flat out unacceptable on offense.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Been saying the same thing. Everyone attacked me. 

Shut up and get back under the stairs Potter!

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Tenhigh said:

Isn't it as simple as calling the underneath stuff when defenses are doing that to us? Josh is a  pretty good dink and dunker, but I think sometimes Dorsey has the same problem that Josh has, always looking for the big score.  We need an adult in the conversation.  Someone should dig up the corpse of Chan to help on O. 

 

Our offense has little if any creativity or imagination, less than I recall ever having seen, particularly given the pool of available talent.  Given the franchise circumstances at this point in time, that's tragic.  

 

On the GM side, next season Beane's going to have an awful lot of cap tied up on Von & Knox.  

 

It would seem that we've come full circle there, which is on Beane.  

 

On the coaching side, call it crazy, but it seems that it's prescient when a coach says in a forlorn manner, "I wish I knew what was wrong, I really do." 

 

 

[BillsFan130]

24 minutes ago, Sharky7337 said:

this is the guy who dedicated mutiple pod casts to why tremaine edmunds was good and we should have resigned him. He's not that inisghtful.

I think Joe Marino is great, but I never understood his love fest with Edmunds.

 

I believe he was part of his scouting region and had a positive grade on him coming to the nfl, so he had a bias on him right away 

Edited November 6, 2023 by BillsFan130

[PBF81]

23 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

They have a Von Miller problem. He looks as slow as me right now.

 

Von Miller was a "win now" signing, ... last season.  Well, we didn't "win now" then, now we're realizing the risks associated with that incredibly risky contract.  

 

Those risks are highly damaging.  

 

Beane should be held accountable for that.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by PBF81

[Bermuda Triangle]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean the D line blew up two plays to push the Bengals out of Josh Allen gifted FG range. It is not like they did nothing. But I don't disagree they have guys up there not earning their corn. They have a Von Miller problem. He looks as slow as me right now.

 

Rousseau is not playing like a first round draft pick, and the curious case of Ed Oliver continues.

[PBF81]

23 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I feel like I am watching the offense under Chan Gailey and Ryan Fitzpatrick far too often lately. Score easily on one drive and then do nothing for extended periods, then start moving the ball later in the game again. There is no excuse to EVER look like THAT offense with Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs on your team.  They better figure it out. It's honestly flat out unacceptable on offense.

 

Welp, McD's admitted that he has no answers and doesn't even know what's wrong.  

 

Yet, there's still some confusion out there what the core problem really is.  SMH. 

 

Fortunately it's becoming more and more obvious now every week.    

 

 

3 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Rousseau is not playing like a first round draft pick, and the curious case of Ed Oliver continues.

 

Yeah, some like me refer to it as an established trend and pattern.  LOL. 

 

 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

That playcall in that situation just broke me.  That was it for me with Dorsey and I will never change my mind.

 

Had the same reaction...and if memory serves they've thrown a deep ball or two to Harty in previous games.  Hasn't worked because dude's lost a step and isn't getting separation.   Amazing coaches haven't seen this into mid-season.  

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Had the same reaction...and if memory serves they've thrown a deep ball or two to Harty in previous games.  Hasn't worked because dude's lost a step and isn't getting separation.   Amazing coaches haven't seen this into mid-season.  

Literally has not worked a single time - at this point it’s like they’re trying to justify a terrible investment in an overpaid punt catcher.

[Bermuda Triangle]

4 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Had the same reaction...and if memory serves they've thrown a deep ball or two to Harty in previous games.  Hasn't worked because dude's lost a step and isn't getting separation.   Amazing coaches haven't seen this into mid-season.  

It worked in London.

 

Beane said last week that the team is still searching to find its identity - just give them time!  

[Hsker4life]

I’m not saying never run, but IMO, when our offense was at its best we were almost always in the Shotgun and JA was slinging the ball around and taking off when it was there.
 

I think when Daboll left there was too much of an emphasis placed on JA not running anymore and needing a RB to be established, especially this past offseason. JA doesn’t run like he used to (until the 4th quarter of last night). That’s such a huge part of his game. 

 

McDermott is a defensive guy. I’ve always believed that a defensive-minded coach needs and established OC (and vice versa for an offensive-minded coach). Giving total control of half of the team to a guy with ZERO coordinator experience was such a colossal mistake. And IMO, it’s an unforgivable mistake.
 

We certainly need a different OC, and I also think we need to move on from our HC. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Rousseau is not playing like a first round draft pick, and the curious case of Ed Oliver continues.

 

Ed was our best DL again yesterday. It is like as soon as he doesn't get a sack in a game people immediately go for him. Wasn't as dominant as he has been other weeks but he was solid.

[BuffaloRebound]

48 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Literally has not worked a single time - at this point it’s like they’re trying to justify a terrible investment in an overpaid punt catcher.

It feels that way with Davis and felt that way with Knox too. Stop forcing the ball to your least productive weapons.  

Option 1 Diggs; Option 2 Kincaid; Option 3 run Allen: option 4 Cook dump offs or outside runs; option 5 shakir.  Everything else is low percentage.  

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Welp, McD's admitted that he has no answers and doesn't even know what's wrong.  

 

Yet, there's still some confusion out there what the core problem really is.  SMH. 

 

Fortunately it's becoming more and more obvious now every week.    

 

 

 

Yeah, some like me refer to it as an established trend and pattern.  LOL. 

 

 

When the coach has no answers it’s time to find a new coach.  Lindy Ruff hit the same spot before pegula put him out of his misery here. 

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Trading deadline has passed

The answer is NOT new players....football is chess as much as it is physicality....they have the talent to win.  

[Jauronimo]

7 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

When the coach has no answers it’s time to find a new coach.  Lindy Ruff hit the same spot before pegula put him out of his misery here. 

And then the Sabres went on to live happily ever after, right?

[PBF81]

16 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

When the coach has no answers it’s time to find a new coach.  Lindy Ruff hit the same spot before pegula put him out of his misery here. 

 

So I've heard.  That's interesting though since Pegs just gave McBeane extensions, the extra years of which they haven't even entered.

 

Not sure I see Pegula admitting a mistake like that.  Hope I'm wrong.  

 

He's going to have a problem though.

 

Ticket prices for the new digs are going to be twice what they are now, plus PSLs.  

 

He was hoping to not have what's happening now, actually happen.  That's why the extensions.  Grease the skids for fleecing the fans.  

 

What's going on now is not good marketing and there's zero indication that the trend will reverse itself.  

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by PBF81

[PayDaBill$]

Mc Dummy wants to run the ball and slow it up to protect the D.  Newsflash Clappy it ain’t working and you’re setting the defensive up for failure. Want to help the D score points, move the chains. Go faster, spread the ball, quick hitters to various receivers & backs is the solution.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Literally has not worked a single time - at this point it’s like they’re trying to justify a terrible investment in an overpaid punt catcher.

 

Yet, everyone applauded his signing.  

 

 

[SectionC3]

10 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

And then the Sabres went on to live happily ever after, right?

Canning Lindy wasn’t wrong.  What happened afterwards was a disaster. 

[PBF81]

4 minutes ago, PayDaBill$ said:

Mc Dummy wants to run the ball and slow it up to protect the D.  Newsflash Clappy it ain’t working and you’re setting the defensive up for failure. Want to help the D score points, move the chains. Go faster, spread the ball, quick hitters to various receivers & backs is the solution.

 

I would like to take a moment to reflect on the fact that in your implication that we're talking about a head coach that doesn't appear to understand that.  

 

Either that or he's being ignored by his subordinates.  

 

He can pick his poison.  

 

 

[Mango]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Von Miller was a "win now" signing, ... last season.  Well, we didn't "win now" then, now we're realizing the risks associated with that incredibly risky contract.  

 

Those risks are highly damaging.  

 

Beane should be held accountable for that.  

 

 

 

I didn't love the Von signing for similar reasons they are an issue now. I will say he was better than I thought he would be at his age before he got injured and his injury was unlucky. But that contract at that length and value for a 33 year old pass rusher was also a risk. 

 

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Our offense has little if any creativity or imagination, less than I recall ever having seen, particularly given the pool of available talent.  Given the franchise circumstances at this point in time, that's tragic.  

 

On the GM side, next season Beane's going to have an awful lot of cap tied up on Von & Knox.  

 

It would seem that we've come full circle there, which is on Beane.  

 

On the coaching side, call it crazy, but it seems that it's prescient when a coach says in a forlorn manner, "I wish I knew what was wrong, I really do." 

 

 

 

TL;DR The Bills roster in 2025 will look almost totally different than it does today. Josh, Stef (hopefully?), Kincaid, Torrence, Milano, Bernard, Benford and Oliver are the only locks (off the top of my head).

 

Knox contract is a bit bloatedt. A better valued extension could help alleviate it going forward. I do have a pin in it as a possible cut candidate after 2024.

 

I think I am almost a little more annoyed with Dawkins contract. He is over valued with a bunch of dead years too. But I do think he is also a cut/trade candidate before next season if he doesn't sign a lower value extension.

 

Josh, Von, and Stef eat a lot. And there is next to nothing we can do with Von or Stef in the near term. Not trying to move Stef. But we can't really restructure anything without a wildly unmanageable hit down the stretch. An extension doesn't feel realistic, he will be 34. And it isn't like he is going to take 2 years at $15M to help spread this out.  Josh can be restructured and extended. That is a near guarantee this offseason. 

[Wayne Arnold]

1 hour ago, Hsker4life said:

I’m not saying never run, but IMO, when our offense was at its best we were almost always in the Shotgun and JA was slinging the ball around and taking off when it was there.

 

The stats and analytics say otherwise. Overwhelmingly.

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ed was our best DL again yesterday. It is like as soon as he doesn't get a sack in a game people immediately go for him. Wasn't as dominant as he has been other weeks but he was solid.

Never mind sacks, it didn't seem that other than on 2-3 occasions, he was getting push in the pass game (on 45 dropbacks, I believe).  The TFL in the run game were on perimeter runs.

[VaMilBill]

4 hours ago, Pete said:

what can he say?  Trading deadline has passed.  We are riddled with injuries,  with some of our top players missing.  What is the solution?  Rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?

His opinion on who shows keep their jobs or who should be relieved. I’d be interested in hearing what he thinks there