Joe Marino

[newcam2012]

Great information by Joe. He says it way better than I can. Worth a listen. 

 

 

[VaMilBill]

Spot on on a lot of items. Only thing I wished he gave us was some recommendations on what the team should do going forward. 

[Pete]

Just now, VaMilBill said:

Spot on on a lot of items. Only thing I wished he gave us was some recommendations on what the team should do going forward. 

what can he say?  Trading deadline has passed.  We are riddled with injuries,  with some of our top players missing.  What is the solution?  Rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?

[UKBillFan]

5 minutes ago, Pete said:

what can he say?  Trading deadline has passed.  We are riddled with injuries,  with some of our top players missing.  What is the solution?  Rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic?

 

Make games shootouts. The defense cannot force turnovers for anything at the moment so let the offense take the preferred approach. If it means games are 38-35 instead of 24-18 so be it.

[colin]

Coming into this game, they showed Allen lead the NFL in TDS, had the highest completion percentage, and top 5 passing yards and rating.

 

After the game, we lead the NFL in epa per offensive drive, and point differential.

 

The bad results and our barely 500 record points to coaching and coaching alone.  This team lacks confidence, has no consistency, and makes the same predictable mistakes over and over.

 

3rd and 10 option routes outside the numbers to midget wrs is insane.  

 

We see our d get smoked by tempo and quick passing vs our zone, so we attack another team playing soft zone with delayed handoffs out of shotgun and slow developing plays.

 

If we miss the playoffs, the whole front office has to go.  If we are one and done in the playoffs, they whole front office has to go, 

 

Frankly, walking papers should have been mass printed after 13 seconds.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Make games shootouts. The defense cannot force turnovers for anything at the moment so let the offense take the preferred approach. If it means games are 38-35 instead of 24-18 so be it.

 

I don't think they are trying to play 24-18 games. The offense just cannot string good drives together. 

 

Turnovers. Penalties. Blown protections (looking at you Spencer Brown). Miscommunications. Just a general lack of any rhythm. 

 

Over the last five games we are averaging 20.2 points. That isn't good enough. Especially when your defense is beat up and you are pulling guys off the practice squad and the street to play meaningful snaps for you. 

 

It hasn't been a muderers row of offenses I geant you but since losing 3 key guys and with various others missing time the D is giving up 21 through the last 5. That should be enough to win you games when you are paying an elite QB elite QB money.

 

 

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think they are trying to play 24-18 games. The offense just cannot string good drives together. 

 

Turnovers. Penalties. Blown protections (looking at you Spencer Brown). Miscommunications. Just a general lack of any rhythm. 

 

Over the last five games we are averaging 20.2 points. That isn't good enough. Especially when your defense is beat up and you are pulling guys off the practice squad and the street to play meaningful snaps for you. 

 

It hasn't been a muderers row of offenses I geant you but since losing 3 key guys and with various others missing time the D is giving up 21 through the last 5. That should be enough to win you games when you are paying an elite QB elite QB money.

 

 

 

The bugbear is why the inconsistency? Come out hot, everything looks easy. Second half, fumble aside, everything looks relatively comfortable. What happened for the rest of the first and second quarters? And why is it seen so often.

[jlgarsh]

The offense could string together drives if they'd just commit to running an uptempo offense. They move the ball at will in the hurry up, regardless of situation. But Dorsey & McDermott refuse to do the obvious solution.

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

The offense could string together drives if they'd just commit to running an uptempo offense. They move the ball at will in the hurry up, regardless of situation. But Dorsey & McDermott refuse to do the obvious solution.

 

But it's alright as the Head Coach - who should be overseeing every aspect of the game, including the OC/play calls etc. - apparently has no idea why the Bills are not using hurry up offense.

[Mango]

I have a little bit of an issue with the criticism that trying to get the run game going stalled the offense. 
 

On the second drive we took 2 deep shots and a short throw. Completed zero. The problem isn’t two run plays for zero yards. 
 

The third drive was 2 terrible decisions in a row from Josh that ended in an INT. 
 

Then came back on the 4th drive with run, run pass. 
 

We ran the ball 8 times with our RB’s. We can’t honestly be saying trying to run the ball once in a blue moon is what killed us. We ran the ball just 4 more times after that. That’s bonkers. 

[Mango]

Worth noting with some of the Gabe Davis criticisms this week. “Where was Gabe?”

 

Diggs and Kincaid did everything we begged from a first and second target. They were open a ton, caught just about everything, 16 catches for about 160. We got that 1/2 production everybody was begging for. Davis was a role player on the outside. That’s what people have pounded the table for. 
 

We have to do better at getting him and Cook involved situationally for chunk plays and RAC. Let Shakir find some soft spots. Davis brings some speed and size on the outside, and Cook should be tearing up LB’s in the passing game. Those guys are certainly good enough to fill those roles with the emerging of Kincaid as a legit option. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

I have a little bit of an issue with the criticism that trying to get the run game going stalled the offense. 
 

On the second drive we took 2 deep shots and a short throw. Completed zero. The problem isn’t two run plays for zero yards. 
 

The third drive was 2 terrible decisions in a row from Josh that ended in an INT. 
 

Then came back on the 4th drive with run, run pass. 
 

We ran the ball 8 times with our RB’s. We can’t honestly be saying trying to run the ball once in a blue moon is what killed us. We ran the ball just 4 more times after that. That’s bonkers. 

 

Agree. Trying to turn James Cook into the bogeyman is a weird reaction to what we are seeing. He had that one reception where he shoulda gonw straight ahead and tried to bounce but otherwise he got what was there for him. The issues lie elsewhere.

[Coach Tuesday]

This entire front office: Beane, McDermott - have criminally under-emphasized offense and as a result their window has closed.  It’s gone, over, done.  
 

It’s time to clean house.

[Mango]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. Trying to turn James Cook into the bogeyman is a weird reaction to what we are seeing. He had that one reception where he shoulda gonw straight ahead and tried to bounce but otherwise he got what was there for him. The issues lie elsewhere.

I am sort of live tweeting this. On the train to NYC and this is a long video. But I take issue with Joes order of operations so far. 
 

1. Coaching fine. 
2. Defense. What?…

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

Worth noting with some of the Gabe Davis criticisms this week. “Where was Gabe?”

 

Diggs and Kincaid did everything we begged from a first and second target. They were open a ton, caught just about everything, 16 catches for about 160. We got that 1/2 production everybody was begging for. Davis was a role player on the outside. That’s what people have pounded the table for. 
 

We have to do better at getting him and Cook involved situationally for chunk plays and RAC. Let Shakir find some soft spots. Davis brings some speed and size on the outside, and Cook should be tearing up LB’s in the passing game. Those guys are certainly good enough to fill those roles with the emerging of Kincaid as a legit option. 

 

And while part of the conversation with Gabe is does he get open often enough (and that is likely part of the low targets without the advantage of the A22 yet) his two targets he was open and Josh needs to make a better throw. He was late on the throw that led to the INT and he needs to throw a more catchable ball on the one in the endzone cos Davis had his man beat and if Josh puts a bit of touch on that ball its 6.

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And while part of the conversation with Gabe is does he get open often enough (and that is likely part of the low targets without the advantage of the A22 yet) his two targets he was open and Josh needs to make a better throw. He was late on the throw that led to the INT and he needs to throw a more catchable ball on the one in the endzone cos Davis had his man beat and if Josh puts a bit of touch on that ball its 6.

I think some of the issue is Dorsey, some is offensive personnel, but I also think Josh has been figured out a bit. He’s a brute force kind of QB, and when things get tight he doubles down on it. 
 

I was driving this am and caught a quick CIN quote post game on NFL radio and he said something like “we just tried to keep the play in front of us, take away the big play, force them to drive the field, don’t let Josh escape the pocket”.

 

Dorsey needs to find a way to get Josh going when teams do this. But man, it sucks to hear teams say stuff like this. This is where we just beat ourselves. Take what they give you!

[Tenhigh]

18 minutes ago, Mango said:

I am sort of live tweeting this. On the train to NYC and this is a long video. But I take issue with Joes order of operations so far. 
 

1. Coaching fine. 
2. Defense. What?…

 

Metro North or NJT?

[LarryMadman]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think some of the issue is Dorsey, some is offensive personnel, but I also think Josh has been figured out a bit. He’s a brute force kind of QB, and when things get tight he doubles down on it. 
 

I was driving this am and caught a quick CIN quote post game on NFL radio and he said something like “we just tried to keep the play in front of us, take away the big play, force them to drive the field, don’t let Josh escape the pocket”.

 

Dorsey needs to find a way to get Josh going when teams do this. But man, it sucks to hear teams say stuff like this. This is where we just beat ourselves. Take what they give you!

Not sticking up for McD at all as I think he stinks but it is interesting hearing other teams do the same thing McD does that everyone criticizes him for. What's the answer? Have no idea other than a change is needed. 

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

Metro North or NJT?

Amtrak actually. But I’ll be passing through the Yonkers shortly. Ha.

[Tenhigh]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think some of the issue is Dorsey, some is offensive personnel, but I also think Josh has been figured out a bit. He’s a brute force kind of QB, and when things get tight he doubles down on it. 
 

I was driving this am and caught a quick CIN quote post game on NFL radio and he said something like “we just tried to keep the play in front of us, take away the big play, force them to drive the field, don’t let Josh escape the pocket”.

 

Dorsey needs to find a way to get Josh going when teams do this. But man, it sucks to hear teams say stuff like this. This is where we just beat ourselves. Take what they give you!

Isn't it as simple as calling the underneath stuff when defenses are doing that to us? Josh is a  pretty good dink and dunker, but I think sometimes Dorsey has the same problem that Josh has, always looking for the big score.  We need an adult in the conversation.  Someone should dig up the corpse of Chan to help on O. 

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Tenhigh said:

Isn't it as simple as calling the underneath stuff when defenses are doing that to us? Josh is a  pretty good dink and dunker, but I think sometimes Dorsey has the same problem that Josh has, always looking for the big score.  We need an adult in the conversation.  Someone should dig up the corpse of Chan to help on O. 

There’s this sort of unspoken thing where everybody just kind of assumes that just because Josh doesn’t do something then the throw wasn’t there. 
 

I am no play call guru, but I do watch the all-22 every week and have been doing it for years. Josh taking the easy throws, and seeing the field has been something I’ve been complaining about since his first full season.

 

That 3rd drive where we threw the INT was about as egregious as it gets. Both the deep throw to Harty and the INT on second down had guys WIDE OPEN. Both throws were terrible decisions. 

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think they are trying to play 24-18 games. The offense just cannot string good drives together. 

 

Turnovers. Penalties. Blown protections (looking at you Spencer Brown). Miscommunications. Just a general lack of any rhythm. 

 

Over the last five games we are averaging 20.2 points. That isn't good enough. Especially when your defense is beat up and you are pulling guys off the practice squad and the street to play meaningful snaps for you. 

 

It hasn't been a muderers row of offenses I geant you but since losing 3 key guys and with various others missing time the D is giving up 21 through the last 5. That should be enough to win you games when you are paying an elite QB elite QB money.

 

 

That's exactly why change is needed Gunner. You can see the offense struggle week after week. Lack of creativity, game planning, schemes, and talent. Dorsey sucks and McD is clueless and hands off. 

 

Not sure how any fan can't see that the McD era is crumbling before our eyes. It's never been able to recover from 13 seconds. The call for change will get stronger and it should. 

 

Last night was nothing new. Once again the defense couldn't come close to stopping or containing the Bengals. Bengals easily scored on their first two possessions. Very common theme of a McD defense to start out slow and give the opposing offenses a TD or two. You are not going to win doing that against good teams. The Bengals had the confidence to take the ball after winning the coin toss. That told me a lot about what they thought about the Buffalo D. Not much. The defense played poorly in the first half.

 

Then when the D needed a stop it couldn't give the offense a chance. Was anyone really surprised by the results? I wasn't. 

 

All in all the defense was ok but not nearly good enough. It amazes me how Bills fans continue to think the Bills D can get it done. Where was the pass rush? McD had to blitz to generate pressure. Everyone knows Burrow will toast you when you blitz. That's pretty much what happened. Truthfully, the Bengals offense was sloppy at times. The defensive injuries are too big to overcome. Why others can't see it is beyond me. 

 

Offensively, the Bills shot their load on the first drive. Looked great, fast paced, spreading the ball around, and great rhythm. Worked so great that they abandoned it for much of the game. Still shaking my head about that. McD is so knee deep in the defense that he's incapable of giving much input to the offense. Maybe I'm wrong here.inobiw I'm right in saying the offense isn't good enough. Cook replaced by old man Murray, Gabe is not a WR2, Harty is a waste of space pace, and Sherfield is equally unimpressive. The merry go round of mediocre patch work wide receivers had been unsuccessful. The oline is not as good as it needs to be. Brown absolutely blows. Cook is a JAG. The only bright spot are Diggs and Kincaid. Allen continues to sputter and throw INTs. Allen is not the Allen of two years ago. He's been cut off at the knees, had trouble being patient, and struggles to read certain defenses. He's part of the problem because he has to be superman in order for the Bills to win. Yesterday, he wasn't close to being superman. Closer to wonder woman. 

 

After the Bills muss the playoffs or go one and done the fans will start to see the obvious. The writing been on the wall. You and others smarter than myself remain in denial. 

 

Next year isn't going to be better without significant changes which includes coaches. Frankly, McD will have another year of wasting Allen and Diggs. Dorsey will be his new fall guy. 

 

Rinse and repeat. 

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

There’s this sort of unspoken thing where everybody just kind of assumes that just because Josh doesn’t do something then the throw wasn’t there. 
 

I am no play call guru, but I do watch the all-22 every week and have been doing it for years. Josh taking the easy throws, and seeing the field has been something I’ve been complaining about since his first full season.

 

That 3rd drive where we threw the INT was about as egregious as it gets. Both the deep throw to Harty and the INT on second down had guys WIDE OPEN. Both throws were terrible decisions. 

I don’t have an issue taking the deep shot personally. That lacks from our offense big time and is what I thought Harty was brought in for specifically. But clearly just another Wr who can’t even get separation. 

 

Agree on the Int. 

 

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

57 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

The offense could string together drives if they'd just commit to running an uptempo offense. They move the ball at will in the hurry up, regardless of situation. But Dorsey & McDermott refuse to do the obvious solution.

I think that’s McDermott trying to protect his beloved defense 

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

I don’t have an issue taking the deep shot personally. That lacks from our offense big time and is what I thought Harty was brought in for specifically. But clearly just another Wr who can’t even get separation. 

 

Agree on the Int. 

 

 

I generally agree. But I had an issue with it given the situation. We were down. The defense was smoked and needed more than 90 seconds. We needed to give them a breather.

 

I think we got lucky on that wild set of flags on the Bengals in the second. I think the defense breaks and the offense doesn’t give us a chance in the 4th if that series of events goes differently. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

It hasn't been a muderers row of offenses I geant you but since losing 3 key guys and with various others missing time the D is giving up 21 through the last 5. That should be enough to win you games when you are paying an elite QB elite QB money.

 

 

If we are going to link investment to expected performance, then maybe it’s time for the DL, with its big money players and 1st round picks, to step up and make plays in non-blowout games.

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Bermuda Triangle said:

If we are going to link investment to expected performance, then maybe it’s time for the DL, with its big money players and 1st round picks, to step up and make plays in non-blowout games.

They did make plays.  Can’t put the game on them.  Defense did its job.

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

Just now, Mango said:

I generally agree. But I had an issue with it given the situation. We were down. The defense was smoked and needed more than 90 seconds. We needed to give them a breather.

 

I think we got lucky on that wild set of flags on the Bengals in the second. I think the defense breaks and the offense doesn’t give us a chance in the 4th if that series of events goes differently. 

Yeah looking at that from the situational point of view I can understand that! 

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

I generally agree. But I had an issue with it given the situation. We were down. The defense was smoked and needed more than 90 seconds. We needed to give them a breather.

 

I think we got lucky on that wild set of flags on the Bengals in the second. I think the defense breaks and the offense doesn’t give us a chance in the 4th if that series of events goes differently. 

That playcall in that situation just broke me.  That was it for me with Dorsey and I will never change my mind.

[Bermuda Triangle]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

They did make plays.  Can’t put the game on them.  Defense did its job.

McDermott would be proud of this answer.  
 

the defense allowed Burrow a season high in passing yardage, and didn’t force a throw into harm’s way all night.  1 turnover forced in 4 weeks.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

22 minutes ago, Mango said:

There’s this sort of unspoken thing where everybody just kind of assumes that just because Josh doesn’t do something then the throw wasn’t there. 
 

I am no play call guru, but I do watch the all-22 every week and have been doing it for years. Josh taking the easy throws, and seeing the field has been something I’ve been complaining about since his first full season.

 

That 3rd drive where we threw the INT was about as egregious as it gets. Both the deep throw to Harty and the INT on second down had guys WIDE OPEN. Both throws were terrible decisions. 

Exactly. Josh is a good QB.

 

He's not GREAT, but he has stretches where he is. Just hasn't happened lately.

 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

That playcall in that situation just broke me.  That was it for me with Dorsey and I will never change my mind.

This is where I don’t know what to do. 
 

Both first and second down had guys wide open, uncovered. I expect Derek Carr or Ryan Tannehill to just “run the play that’s called” as Josh put it in his post game presser. But if your guy is top 5, you have to know not to just chuck it up there. You have to see the play beyond the play call. Just because a call is designed to go to “x” doesn’t mean you have to throw it there if he’s covered and others are open. 
 

And if others are open. Is the problem still the call?

 

Part of me is pointing the finger but also I think those are legitimate questions. 

[LarryMadman]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Exactly. Josh is a good QB.

 

He's not GREAT, but he has stretches where he is. Just hasn't happened lately.

 

Josh is great but is hamstrung by coaching. Classic case of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, LarryMadman said:

Josh is great but is hamstrung by coaching. Classic case of trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Agree to disagree. Josh has the physical tools to be best all-time. Mentally, he's not it, though.

 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

This is where I don’t know what to do. 
 

Both first and second down had guys wide open, uncovered. I expect Derek Carr or Ryan Tannehill to just “run the play that’s called” as Josh put it in his post game presser. But if your guy is top 5, you have to know not to just chuck it up there. You have to see the play beyond the play call. Just because a call is designed to go to “x” doesn’t mean you have to throw it there if he’s covered and others are open. 
 

And if others are open. Is the problem still the call?

 

Part of me is pointing the finger but also I think those are legitimate questions. 

They can’t and shouldn’t move on from Allen though.  He’s a unicorn although he seems to be at or near his ceiling in terms of the work he’s willing to put in before the snap.  So they need to elevate the situation around him.  Their GM and possibly (but I’m not sure) head coach seem to overestimate Allen’s own willingness to work hard - they’ve done too little to help him get there.  But the easiest solution is to put an adult in as playcaller.  It won’t fix Allen but it may raise the weekly floor.

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Worth noting with some of the Gabe Davis criticisms this week. “Where was Gabe?”

 

Diggs and Kincaid did everything we begged from a first and second target. They were open a ton, caught just about everything, 16 catches for about 160. We got that 1/2 production everybody was begging for. Davis was a role player on the outside. That’s what people have pounded the table for. 
 

We have to do better at getting him and Cook involved situationally for chunk plays and RAC. Let Shakir find some soft spots. Davis brings some speed and size on the outside, and Cook should be tearing up LB’s in the passing game. Those guys are certainly good enough to fill those roles with the emerging of Kincaid as a legit option. 

Are they?  
 

I am not seeing it. 

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Exactly. Josh is a good QB.

 

He's not GREAT, but he has stretches where he is. Just hasn't happened lately.

 

I think he can be, which is where I get frustrated. 
 

I also don’t hate Josh, but once the season starts there are no more WR. No new HC or OC change to level up. But we can execute. The best way to cover up offensive woes in season is better QB play. 
 

I have taken huge issue with the way Beane constructed the roster. It’s going to take 2-3 years to reset. It frustrates me to know end. But he can’t do anything to help us against KC, Philly, Miami, etc right now. We just have to be better with what we have. 

[DCofNC]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Worth noting with some of the Gabe Davis criticisms this week. “Where was Gabe?”

 

Diggs and Kincaid did everything we begged from a first and second target. They were open a ton, caught just about everything, 16 catches for about 160. We got that 1/2 production everybody was begging for. Davis was a role player on the outside. That’s what people have pounded the table for. 
 

We have to do better at getting him and Cook involved situationally for chunk plays and RAC. Let Shakir find some soft spots. Davis brings some speed and size on the outside, and Cook should be tearing up LB’s in the passing game. Those guys are certainly good enough to fill those roles with the emerging of Kincaid as a legit option. 

Didn’t notice him being the guy they were going to on the INT and the grounding call?  His inability to read situations makes him more risk than reward.  It’s time people see him for what he is, a liability.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

I think he can be, which is where I get frustrated. 
 

I also don’t hate Josh, but once the season starts there are no more WR. No new HC or OC change to level up. But we can execute. The best way to cover up offensive woes in season is better QB play. 
 

I have taken huge issue with the way Beane constructed the roster. It’s going to take 2-3 years to reset. It frustrates me to know end. But he can’t do anything to help us against KC, Philly, Miami, etc right now. We just have to be better with what we have. 

 

This is why I'm arguing for a total reset. This team is staring down the very real barrel of .500-ish football for this season, next and possibly the year after.

 

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

Are they?  
 

I am not seeing it. 

I think with the production from Kincaid and Diggs, Davis filled the role many clamored for. I think he’s good enough there. People wanted a second outlet at pass catcher, Kincaid/Diggs did that last night?

 

So what’s the expectation for your 3rd/4th option? Sometimes they have games. Sometimes they don’t. 
 

But for the crowd that has begged for a reliable second option last night, we had it and we still stalled. The offense misses a lot conceptually and in execution that goes beyond personnel. 

 

We have to get the ball to Cook more in the receiving game. Even when we throw to him underneath it’s often as a last resort. I’d love to get him going on the move.