Fitzpatrick's veiled criticism of Dorsey?

[MarkKelso'sHelmet]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere. . .

 

but in the Amazon halftime show, it seems like Fitzmagic gave a muted criticism of Dorsey, both the goal line call and running the bootleg (he had banged up his shoulder and it's the wrong call). "Let's take those nakeds out of the game" is the direct quote.

 

This should be brought up to McDermott. 

 

Fitzmagic for coordinator??

Edited October 27, 2023 by MarkKelso'sHelmet

[BobbyC81]

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

It’s nothing new as Daboll did this all the time but Dorsey needs to end it. I get spreading out the defense but you can do that under center.

 

This has been a problem for a long time with the Bills at the goal line.

[streetkings01]

I thought the offense actually looked good last night. Offense looked way more creative……we shot ourselves in the foot a lot with penalties, the INT and Josh taking that sack on 2 and 1 after trying to draw the Offside penalty. Dorsey didn’t deserve criticism for this game……any criticism should go to McDermott for punting the ball 2x inside our 45 on 4th and short!

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

I’m with you on the third down play 100%, but the 4th down play was not on Dorsey.  It was on Josh.  You’re really blaming the IC for the QB missing a read?

 

Josh had a good night.  I counted three bad plays.  That was one of them.

[Xwnyer]

25 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

I thought the offense actually looked good last night. Offense looked way more creative……we shot ourselves in the foot a lot with penalties, the INT and Josh taking that sack on 2 and 1 after trying to draw the Offside penalty. Dorsey didn’t deserve criticism for this game……any criticism should go to McDermott for punting the ball 2x inside our 45 on 4th and short!

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

[bmur66]

That was a thin veil.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

18 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

 He probably thought he was coaching smart. McDermott use to be one of the top coaches going for 4th and a few yards. Now he’s turned into Mike Tomlin.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, streetkings01 said:

I thought the offense actually looked good last night. Offense looked way more creative……we shot ourselves in the foot a lot with penalties, the INT and Josh taking that sack on 2 and 1 after trying to draw the Offside penalty. Dorsey didn’t deserve criticism for this game……any criticism should go to McDermott for punting the ball 2x inside our 45 on 4th and short!

it was the best terrible day I’ve ever watched. 
 

Dorsey was the good husband that got caught cheating. The reliable employee that pocketed a couple bucks. You want to justify that everything was solid on paper but he had about 5 of the most ridiculous calls possible and 4 were in huge moments.

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

I’m with you on the third down play 100%, but the 4th down play was not on Dorsey.  It was on Josh.  You’re really blaming the IC for the QB missing a read?

 

Josh had a good night.  I counted three bad plays.  That was one of them.

that Josh was making a read is a fail there 

Edited October 27, 2023 by NoSaint

[strive_for_five_guy]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I’m with you on the third down play 100%, but the 4th down play was not on Dorsey.  It was on Josh.  You’re really blaming the IC for the QB missing a read?

 

Josh had a good night.  I counted three bad plays.  That was one of them.

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

[Bigantall]

McDermott is the main reason we're in this situation listen to his post game speeches he doesn't seem comfortable l don't think those guys believe in him 

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

That was Allen.  The reason the DT penetrated and got through the line is because our OL wasn’t expecting a play.

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s nothing new as Daboll did this all the time but Dorsey needs to end it. I get spreading out the defense but you can do that under center.

 

This has been a problem for a long time with the Bills at the goal line.

Daboll let Josh run when spread out, which was basically back-breaking for defenses. If they spied, it was single coverage and bbq chicken. If they didn’t, Josh could look and pull it down if nothing was there.

 

Leave it to Kenny to call the same plays with a fundamental misunderstanding of why it worked lmao

[stevestojan]

The play calling on that goalline series is unforgivable. That alone should be enough to fire Dorsey. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Daboll let Josh run when spread out, which was basically back-breaking for defenses. If they spied, it was single coverage and bbq chicken. If they didn’t, Josh could look and pull it down if nothing was there.

 

Leave it to Kenny to call the same plays with a fundamental misunderstanding of why it worked lmao

Ken Dorsey doesn’t keep Allen from running. It’s a fun excuse. Allen can run whenever he wants.

 

Sometimes I think fans believe Allen is a Madden player and Dorsey is controlling him. Allen’s best running is instinctual.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[dma0034]

Imo on the 4th and 1 I spread and go 4 wide and have Allen in shotgun with an option with run being the primary.

[Wraith]

17 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

That was Allen.  The reason the DT penetrated and got through the line is because our OL wasn’t expecting a play.

Morse, not Allen. Watch that play again. Morse quick snapped it because he thought he had Tampa Bay in the neutral zone (probably did). Neither Allen nor the rest of the OL were expecting and let defender through the middle unblocked.

[Calidiehard]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

I’m with you on the third down play 100%, but the 4th down play was not on Dorsey.  It was on Josh.  You’re really blaming the IC for the QB missing a read?

 

Josh had a good night.  I counted three bad plays.  That was one of them.

Josh had the right read for what the Bucs showed. The linebacker went with Kincaid in motion which shows man 99.9% of the time, its a speed out against a linebacker which Kincaid would have been in for an easy TD. As he got to the middle of the field the LB gave quick signal and we were snapping the ball. They changed to zone in an instant, or had it set up to look like man and were always playing zone. Either way it's a quick hitter and and great play call by the DC. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

2 hours ago, streetkings01 said:

I thought the offense actually looked good last night. Offense looked way more creative……we shot ourselves in the foot a lot with penalties, the INT and Josh taking that sack on 2 and 1 after trying to draw the Offside penalty. Dorsey didn’t deserve criticism for this game……any criticism should go to McDermott for punting the ball 2x inside our 45 on 4th and short!

I don’t get the criticism on punting the ball when your punter and defense has been on fire all night. Martin would’ve had 3 straight punts inside the 5 if not for the gunner Fing up. 

[BillsDad51]

28 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

That play bugged me too. After the sack Josh gestured like he was expecting a flag for Offside. I wonder if Bucs player jumped and ball was snapped to catch him in neutral zone. But the Amazon prime team never addressed it after commercial. But why get cute there? Run out the clock on the quarter and Bills start 4th with chances to continue the drive and put the game out of reach.

[Since1981]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

2 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

 He probably thought he was coaching smart. McDermott use to be one of the top coaches going for 4th and a few yards. Now he’s turned into Mike Tomlin.

A couple yrs back the ratio of going for it and making 4th was so high it opened play book for 2 and 3rd downs 

34 minutes ago, Bigantall said:

McDermott is the main reason we're in this situation listen to his post game speeches he doesn't seem comfortable l don't think those guys believe in him 

Remember. D heard most with Frazier and O listened most to Daboll. 
 

team now gets a LOT more McDermott exposure.  The team may now realize the boss is McDummy. I know I’m realizing it 😕

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

 

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

 He probably thought he was coaching smart. McDermott use to be one of the top coaches going for 4th and a few yards. Now he’s turned into Mike Tomlin.

 

In more cases than not I’d agree with you that going for it would be the correct call, but not in this game in the situation they were in. TB had not been able to move the ball on us and pinning them deep had worked well. I called for the punt both times before we did it. IMO it was good situational coaching.  

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, MarkKelso'sHelmet said:

Forgive me if this has already been discussed elsewhere. . .

 

but in the Amazon halftime show, it seems like Fitzmagic gave a muted criticism of Dorsey, both the goal line call and running the bootleg (he had banged up his shoulder and it's the wrong call). "Let's take those nakeds out of the game" is the direct quote.

 

This should be brought up to McDermott. 

 

Fitzmagic for coordinator??

Has those naked bootlegs worked at all? 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Solomon Grundy

[Wraith]

6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

 

In more cases than not I’d agree with you that going for it would be the correct call, but not in this game in the situation they were in. TB had not been able to move the ball on us and pinning them deep had worked well. I called for the punt both times before we did it. IMO it was good situational coaching.  

The first punt was 4th & 4 before the delay of game with 3:00 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter. That one was definitely the correct call by McDermott.

 

The problem was the following punt. That one was initially a 4th & 2 with 10:00 minutes to go in the 4th. The problem there was by that time Tampa was clearly in "no punt" mode and it is really hard to stop an NFL offense when they get 4 plays per set of downs instead of 3. McDermott should have trusted the offense to get 2 yards and essentially end the game right there.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

 

In more cases than not I’d agree with you that going for it would be the correct call, but not in this game in the situation they were in. TB had not been able to move the ball on us and pinning them deep had worked well. I called for the punt both times before we did it. IMO it was good situational coaching.  

Both? We ended the game with 4 punts on 4th and a few yards inside the 50.

 

The last 2 punts, ok. But the 2 before that, Go!

[Ramza86]

42 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ken Dorsey doesn’t keep Allen from running. It’s a fun excuse. Allen can run whenever he wants.

 

Sometimes I think fans believe Allen is a Madden player and Dorsey is controlling him. Allen’s best running is instinctual.

 

I dont believe that based on everything weve seen and heard in the offseason and during the season.

[mjt328]

The shotgun snaps on 3rd/4th and short need to stop.

 

Too many NFL teams (not just the Bills/Dorsey) try getting creative in these situations.  It's stupid and ridiculous.  They know the defense is expecting a quick run or sneak up the middle, so they try to do ANYTHING but that.  

 

The most successful short-yardage team in the NFL is the Eagles.  Every time they face 3rd or 4th and 1... they line up in a bunched formation, and have the guys behind Jalen Hurts push him forward.  The defense knows it's coming.  But it works 99-100% of the time.  And if other teams in the NFL spent the time to practice that play and do it right, they would have just as much success.  Especially a team with a QB the size of Josh Allen.

 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

 

Yeah the 3rd down play call gets all the hate, for good reason, but the 4th down play call was arguably just as bad. It's no better than a goalline fade. It's a one read play and you don't give your best playmaker in Allen any chance to find a way to score if the concept doesn't work. Plus it opens up potential for a 99 yard pick 6.

 

What sucks is that we're stuck with Dorsey's play calling this season no matter what, McDermott isn't going to find a justification to fire him. So McDermott himself needs to take more ownership of the offense and get some of these garbage play calls in critical moments out of there.

 

You know who I wish Dorsey would emulate? Ben Johnson. Not in the sense that he can be as creative as Johnson is, but in the way Johnson knows what his players are good at and calls a select few plays that he knows they can execute. Like how has Dorsey not realized by now that Murrary running from shotgun at the goalline is a very low percentage play? We can talk all day about the concept and why it's run that way and yadda yadda, but ultimately our set of players clearly cannot execute that play call. So just stop doing it. Same with the quick swings/screens to Diggs. Occasionally they work but usually they are a waste of a down. Take them out of the playbook.

[colin]

30 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t get the criticism on punting the ball when your punter and defense has been on fire all night. Martin would’ve had 3 straight punts inside the 5 if not for the gunner Fing up. 

 

I didn't agree w this at first, and frankly not certain i do now, but this is a good point.  

 

to me the real failing of dorsey tonight was showing a lack of feel for the game.  2nd and long runs out of shot gun for no gain/loss, shot gun run on 3rd and inches at the goal line, and this goofy quick screen to the te on 4th and 1 on the goal line is just all a bit goofy.

 

if allen sneaks 2 times in a row, i'd say we have about a 90% chance of getting over a yard.

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, BobbyC81 said:

I have been patient with the offense and the play calls but I’ve finally had it with Dorsey.  4th down near the goal line and there’s Josh in shotgun with an empty backfield.  The following pass was actually close to being a pick six.  Ugh!
 

I don’t understand why you don’t have a RB in the backfield to at least show the threat of a run.  In that small space of the end zone, how many receivers can you really have out in that situation?

How about running a "tush push" with your 6'5" 235lb QB on the goal line? 

[Milanos Milano]

I would seriously hire Fitz as an OC to replace Dorsey. Dude is smart. 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It’s nothing new as Daboll did this all the time but Dorsey needs to end it. I get spreading out the defense but you can do that under center.

 

This has been a problem for a long time with the Bills at the goal line.

 

We watched for 20 years, anytime the Pats had Down and Short they ran up to the line and snuck Brady on a quiet count. And got their 3 feet every time.

 

We finally started doing it, but then stop.

 

This aint rocket surgery. Maddening they cant figure it out.

[Solomon Grundy]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah the 3rd down play call gets all the hate, for good reason, but the 4th down play call was arguably just as bad. It's no better than a goalline fade. It's a one read play and you don't give your best playmaker in Allen any chance to find a way to score if the concept doesn't work. Plus it opens up potential for a 99 yard pick 6.

 

What sucks is that we're stuck with Dorsey's play calling this season no matter what, McDermott isn't going to find a justification to fire him. So McDermott himself needs to take more ownership of the offense and get some of these garbage play calls in critical moments out of there.

 

You know who I wish Dorsey would emulate? Ben Johnson. Not in the sense that he can be as creative as Johnson is, but in the way Johnson knows what his players are good at and calls a select few plays that he knows they can execute. Like how has Dorsey not realized by now that Murrary running from shotgun at the goalline is a very low percentage play? We can talk all day about the concept and why it's run that way and yadda yadda, but ultimately our set of players clearly cannot execute that play call. So just stop doing it. Same with the quick swings/screens to Diggs. Occasionally they work but usually they are a waste of a down. Take them out of the playbook.

Is Mike Shula and Joe Brady still on the staff? If so, what's their purpose? 

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

That was Allen.  The reason the DT penetrated and got through the line is because our OL wasn’t expecting a play.

 

That's ultimately on the coaches though. Morse snapped the ball so clearly the plan was to snap it if a defensive player jumped Offside. Allen and Morse didn't go rogue, that was the call. The problem with that plan is that you're asking players on the field to identify an Offside, and if they're wrong you get a really stupid looking outcome. Honestly a smart coach would tell his defense to intentionally fake jump Offside in obvious situations like that. On 2nd and 1 there's just no need for that trickery. Get to the 4th quarter and run James Cook on the next play.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by HappyDays

[Lost]

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

The play that bugged me was the 2nd and short at end of 3rd quarter.  They’re up two scores, should be milking clock, and they rush to get a play in and Allen takes a 10 yard loss.  Did you get any sense whether that was a coach’s call versus Allen called that on his own?

 

I think Allen was just trying to draw the D Offside before the end and it did look like one of them jumped so Morse snapped it and Josh expected a free play.  No flag was thrown though. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

 

I dont believe that based on everything weve seen and heard in the offseason and during the season.

We’ve always heard it. Allen might’ve been listening more. Allen was probably thinking too much this year. 
 

I don’t think anything changed other than Allen. Maybe it worked also because he ran last night but he got down instead of taking on tacklers.

 

 

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We watched for 20 years, anytime the Pats had Down and Short they ran up to the line and snuck Brady on a quiet count. And got their 3 feet every time.

 

We finally started doing it, but then stop.

 

This aint rocket surgery. Maddening they cant figure it out.

I never understood why every team in the league didn’t copy what Brady did. I still don’t. 

[mannc]

3 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

The punts baffled me.  Coaching  scared

Coaching like he’s got a journeyman quarterback.  Andy Reid and Nick Siriani go for it in both those situations.  They would also trust their qb to throw instead of just running it into a punt on that last series.

[colin]

30 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t get the criticism on punting the ball when your punter and defense has been on fire all night. Martin would’ve had 3 straight punts inside the 5 if not for the gunner Fing up. 

 

I didn't agree w this at first, and frankly not certain i do now, but this is a good point.  

 

to me the real failing of dorsey tonight was showing a lack of feel for the game.  2nd and long runs out of shot gun for no gain/loss, shot gun run on 3rd and inches at the goal line, and this goofy quick screen to the te on 4th and 1 on the goal line is just all a bit goofy.

 

if allen sneaks 2 times in a row, i'd say we have about a 90% chance of getting over a yard.

30 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t get the criticism on punting the ball when your punter and defense has been on fire all night. Martin would’ve had 3 straight punts inside the 5 if not for the gunner Fing up. 

 

I didn't agree w this at first, and frankly not certain i do now, but this is a good point.  

 

to me the real failing of dorsey tonight was showing a lack of feel for the game.  2nd and long runs out of shot gun for no gain/loss, shot gun run on 3rd and inches at the goal line, and this goofy quick screen to the te on 4th and 1 on the goal line is just all a bit goofy.

 

if allen sneaks 2 times in a row, i'd say we have about a 90% chance of getting over a yard.

[Brandon]

34 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

 

In more cases than not I’d agree with you that going for it would be the correct call, but not in this game in the situation they were in. TB had not been able to move the ball on us and pinning them deep had worked well. I called for the punt both times before we did it. IMO it was good situational coaching.  

 

I think the conservative approach on those drives is fair game for criticism, but ahead 24-10,  I agree, I think the punts were absolutely the correct call.  That's especially true when you have no idea what kind of shotgun BS play Ken Dorsey is going to dial up in short yardage.

[Gugny]

There was no veil. The only thing Fitz didn’t do was come out and say Dorsey’s name. 
 

Regardless, it was a clear call-out.