Article on Josh Allen's state of mind

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

"I think when you talk too much to young players, and try to mold them into what you think a prototypical quarterback or any position should be, you take away what makes him special. I think that's what's happening in Buffalo."

 

"It's enough talk, let the kid meaning Josh Allen, just go out there and play football. The way he plays it, if he gets hurt, he gets hurt. If he throws a bad pick once in a while, he throws a bad pick, but they're messing with the kid's brain. And I think that's the biggest problem in Buffalo right now."

 

Thank you.  I been saying this all season and also every season about them trying to pound out of Josh running.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Scott7975

[LeGOATski]

A New York state of mind?

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

Has anyone pointed out how poorly written that article is?

 

Man, internet journalism isn’t what it used to be. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

They were talking about the Bills on WFAN and Craig Carton chimed in. Blames McDermott for Allen's struggles.

 

 

With the Buffalo Bills now 4-3 heading into Week 8, pressure is arising on them. Allen has faced a lot of criticism from the media this season, but Craig Carton believes that head coach Sean McDermott is to blame for Allen's regression this season.

Here's what Carton said on his show:

"They're a dysfunctional mess and to me, it's not so much about Josh, it's as much about Sean McDermott as it is about anything. But I would like them to allow Josh Allen to just go play football."

"I think when you talk too much to young players, and try to mold them into what you think a prototypical quarterback or any position should be, you take away what makes him special. I think that's what's happening in Buffalo."

"It's enough talk, let the kid meaning Josh Allen, just go out there and play football. The way he plays it, if he gets hurt, he gets hurt. If he throws a bad pick once in a while, he throws a bad pick, but they're messing with the kid's brain. And I think that's the biggest problem in Buffalo right now."

 

 

Cowherd had similar observations as he lumped Allen & Herbert together as superstar QB's being held back by not having "that guy" they can work with.  To me that was just code for the Bills & Chargers don't have offensive minded coaches that Allen can go to when he's struggling.  Cowherd pointed out that almost every elite QB has had that sort of security blanket.

 

[colin]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Cowherd had similar observations as he lumped Allen & Herbert together as superstar QB's being held back by not having "that guy" they can work with.  To me that was just code for the Bills & Chargers don't have offensive minded coaches that Allen can go to when he's struggling.  Cowherd pointed out that almost every elite QB has had that sort of security blanket.

 

 

 

i agree w the above, but as it has been pointed out, our d is playing awful and that is mcd's calling card.  if he doesn't get the d turned around hard w a quickness, then im gonna count myself among the haters and say we need to move on from him.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Cowherd had similar observations as he lumped Allen & Herbert together as superstar QB's being held back by not having "that guy" they can work with.  To me that was just code for the Bills & Chargers don't have offensive minded coaches that Allen can go to when he's struggling.  Cowherd pointed out that almost every elite QB has had that sort of security blanket.

 

he may be correct here, but Cowherd sets narratives and seeks all else to confirm his narratives. Here is my favorite quote that explains so much.

 

“The human understanding, when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things … to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises or … sets aside and rejects in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination, the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate”. (Francis Bacon 1602).

[Warriorspikes51]

Whoever he’s been listening to, enough.

 

He needs to be encouraged to go out there and play free fun backyard ball….

 

right out of the gate. This offense needs to start games full throttle

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

Maybe all this psycho babble stuff is overthinking things.  Consider the following:

 

*  Belicheat is still the greatest defensive mind in the NFL.  Allen has torched him for several years now.  Does anyone think that hasn't gotten under Bill's skin?  Why wouldn't we assume that Bill and his coaches spent the off season figuring out how best to address the Allen challenge.  Kubiak pointed out that Belecheat employed an innovative defensive game plan on Sunday.

 

*  Diggs made comments about frequent substitution leading to the Bills getting to the LOS late. The announcers also pointed out that the Bills were not snapping the ball until the last moment.  How the hell is Allen supposed to change the play or set the right protections when he has very little time to do it?  Is it possible that Belecheat noticed on film that the Bills substituted a lot and that they were cutting it pretty close with the play clock? That makes disguising your defense a lot easier when the QB has very little time to change things up.

 

*  By every objective measure Allen played well.  He wasn't great but he had a solid game. Importantly Allen rallied the Bills in the 4th quarter to take a 3 point lead with less then 2 minutes left.  If we're wondering Allen isn't great in every game I'll throw the Greg Cosell quote out again:

 

"If you need your QB to be great every game you have a problem and it's not the QB."

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

he may be correct here, but Cowherd sets narratives and seeks all else to confirm his narratives. Here is my favorite quote that explains so much.

 

“The human understanding, when it has once adopted an opinion draws all things … to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises or … sets aside and rejects in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination, the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate”. (Francis Bacon 1602).

I've been listening to Cowherd for years and understand his act.  And you're right to a point.  But the guy does make some very astute observations and he has a lot of NFL insiders (former players, coaches & GM's) who provide background for his takes.  Cowherd has talked about the Bills offensive issues from the standpoint of having a defensive head coach before. particularly the Bills inability to get the O line right and to find more weapons to compliment Diggs.

 

 

[newcam2012]

47 minutes ago, Logic said:

My responses are bolded.

Put simply, I respect your position that it's time to replace McDermott, and I respectfully disagree. We need to see how this season plays out, in my opinion.

That's more than fair. I respect your viewpoint and response. I suspect many here agree more with your viewpoints than mine. 

 

Time will tell what happens. Truthfully, I would like nothing more to be wrong here. That would mean the Bills are winning and advancing further in the playoffs.

 

I've fantasized about the Bills winning it all for decades. I know it's only football but I can say without a doubt tears of joy would be in order for this Bills fans. 

[C.Biscuit97]

He’s making millions, good looking, has a million commercials, and has exceeded his wildest dreams. His mind should be completely fine. 
 

now stop with sad puppy dog stuff after bad plays and we’ll be fine. 

[SD_Dog]

Allen’s first quarter careless stare said it all and his play shows the results. The Second half come backs of the last three games he is a wide eyed focused QB. Keep the low positive BS on the sidelines.  

[BillsfaninCT]

these replies are really disappointing.  just because you're successful doesn't mean you're as successful as you could be while also being less stressed out and less emotionally volatile.  the guy is trying to improve, we're so quick to throw money at a cause and get behind this or that but holy cow, that mental stuff is just hogwash.

 

the same brain and mental capacity that is dismissed for athletic performance is the same one that kills you when you forget how to breathe from dementia or results in suicide or genius.  absolutely nothing functions on it's own without your brain and it can trick you into almost anything.

 

I'd think in 2023, with all the dementia awareness the general public would be less dismissive of the impact of the brain.  it's just easier to say deal with it, man up or whatever dismissive tact than to try and understand it.

Edited October 26, 2023 by BillsfaninCT

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, Logic said:

This question seems impossible to answer because we don't know who would be available. 

Take Ben Johnson, for instance. He seems to be a popular choice around here lately. He just pulled himself off the table after being interviewed for a head coaching position this past offseason, stating that he'd rather remain OC for the Lions.

The tough part, ultimately, is that we don't know what coordinators would make good head coaches. I believe that it takes more than just Xs and Os to be a good head coach. I look for leadership, first and foremost. And that kind of thing is hard to gauge for us as fans, without knowing what these meeting rooms look like or what qualities of leadership these coordinators do or do not have.

To answer your question the best I can: I am starting to believe that I would prefer that the Bills had a very astute offensive mind running the show. I believe that the current NFL is dominated by forward thinking offenses, and it's hard for me to buy into the notion that the Bills will ever truly have that as long as McDermott is head coach. Further, even if they DO get an offensive coordinator who is forward thinking and innovative, he'd likely be poached after a year or two.

Up until very recently, I've been fine with a "defensive guy" being head coach, for two main reasons: One, I felt that his leadership and culture-building trumped whatever he lacked in offensive prowess. Two, I feel that pairing a consistently elite defense with a great quarterback can still be a championship recipe in the modern NFL. The thing that has started to change my mind on these factors is, as to the first point, that for all the "leadership and culture-building" McDermott offers, the Bills have far too many "wakeup call" games per year, where they look unprepared and uninterested. And as to the second point, the "consistently elite defense" folds when it runs into truly elite offenses, particularly in the playoffs.

So if your culture and leadership aren't producing detail-oriented, consistent, complementary, winning football, and your bread and butter (in McDermott's case, defense) isn't showing up in key moments, then what exactly are you bringing to the table? For these reasons, my stance on McDermott definitely being the no-doubt-about-it guy to lead the Bills has begun to soften.

ALL OF THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...how do you possibly fire a guy who wins you the division and gets you to the playoffs every single year, whose playoff record is not bad overall, when compared to his contemporaries, and who is currently leading a team with a winning record and a legitimate shot at another division title? You can't do it. That's why, despite everything I just stated, I still feel that it's premature to discuss firing McDermott at this moment in time. Talk to me again after the season, and once we know what replacement candidates are available.

 

Well, in fairness the question did say of anyone that was a potential candidate.  

 

A reasonable answer nonetheless.  The only thing we differ on is the last part.  And agreed, if we finish 12-5, fine, a stay.  But if we only win 9 or 10 games, with Allen, contrasted with the drought era, it should be pretty obvious that McD's reached a ceiling.  

 

As you say, we'll see what happens.  It seems tremendously likely that the opinion on this isn't going to be anything close to 50/50 as it now is, by season's end.  

 

Also, in line with what you said, we had the 2nd ranked Defense in 2022, the 1st-ranked Defense in 2021, and the 2nd-ranked Defense in 2019, and the best we could do was "13 Seconds."  Hence my comments about the ceiling.  

 

There's nowhere to go from 1st and 2nd is close enough, particularly when the #1 D is in the NFC and you can't even get to that point in the playoffs.  

 

I would pose this, if nothing changes, we risk seeing Allen's career being Marv Levied, never even sniffing a Super Bowl much less winning one.  If that were to occur, there will no doubt be endless second-guessing on it all for a long time.  

 

That would be the biggest pity of all.  

 

 

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

Here's what Carton said on his show:

"They're a dysfunctional mess and to me, it's not so much about Josh, it's as much about Sean McDermott as it is about anything. But I would like them to allow Josh Allen to just go play football."

"I think when you talk too much to young players, and try to mold them into what you think a prototypical quarterback or any position should be, you take away what makes him special. I think that's what's happening in Buffalo."

"It's enough talk, let the kid meaning Josh Allen, just go out there and play football. The way he plays it, if he gets hurt, he gets hurt. If he throws a bad pick once in a while, he throws a bad pick, but they're messing with the kid's brain. And I think that's the biggest problem in Buffalo right now."

 

That's a very good assessment!  

 

I would add that there's a difference between doing all that you can for him by developing your OL and running game so as to take the burden off in the rushing department, and trying to convert him into a pocket passer.  

 

He has to hone those skills, and learn to take what the D's give him, but until this season, and even pending there, he hasn't had the OL to be able to comfortably do that, nor the RB(s), which were probably a product of the former.  

 

It simply seems that McD has major and terminal shortcomings in the big-picture view of the team.  

 

That's why words like dysfunctional and disarray(ed) have appeared in recent pieces discussing our team.  

 

We've had the #1 or #2 D three times in the past four seasons prior to this one, two of those times the best in the AFC as well, and we're 2-3 in the playoffs with wins only over the Skylar Thompson led Fins and the Pats two seasons ago.  

 

He seems to have reached his pinnacle.  

 

 

[Low Positive]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I've been listening to Cowherd for years and understand his act.  And you're right to a point.  But the guy does make some very astute observations and he has a lot of NFL insiders (former players, coaches & GM's) who provide background for his takes.  Cowherd has talked about the Bills offensive issues from the standpoint of having a defensive head coach before. particularly the Bills inability to get the O line right and to find more weapons to compliment Diggs.

 

 

I agree with you, and he’s probably right here. I listen to him too because he’s not a dumbass like Skip. But he, like all sports talkers, is loathe to come off his takes. It’s just the nature of the business. I mean Skip Baylee’s has Tebow in the HoF and LeBron as the worst player in NBA history and no amount of evidence can persuade him. Also, I love that Francis Bacon identified this in the 17th century.

 

Finally, I managed to raise two Bills fans in Finneytown and I’m taking my 20 year old son up to Highmark tomorrow night to get him baptized into the Bills Mafia. Hammers Lot here we come! My 18 year old daughter cried when we lost to the Pats on Sunday That’s when I knew that she was all in too.

[NoSaint]

Again and again I’ll say he needed to learn how to step out or slide in meaningless moments, not to stop being a dynamic runner. He should take off and we should design runs too. Just be aggressive instead of reckless when you get going. 
 

With these quotes -Josh trying to manage the sugar high better isn’t terrible though. In control but still loose is the balance we all want and exactly the balance he’s weighing here. I think the team needs a little more of a kick in the butt from him at times though

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

19 hours ago, Last Guy on the Bench said:

Idiotic take (not you, the article). Clearly Josh is working on the mental side of his game and always has been. But the idea that reflection, experimentation, trying to grow and evolve (which of course will come with ups and downs) is somehow weak or confused or unhelpful is absurd. Sure overthinking things can be a problem in any area of life, but if that's happening, continued reflection will help him see that too. The article could have been interesting; the topic is interesting. But it's such a knee-jerk and/or clickbait angle. 

This is real backseat driver type criticism that he’s been goin through lol. This board will call him sugar high josh when he comes in amped up and tries to make ridiculous plays happen, but the guy is trying to get into a good headspace where he can make smart decisions now and he’s being criticized? It’s a very mental game  
 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's a very good assessment!  

 

I would add that there's a difference between doing all that you can for him by developing your OL and running game so as to take the burden off in the rushing department, and trying to convert him into a pocket passer.  

 

He has to hone those skills, and learn to take what the D's give him, but until this season, and even pending there, he hasn't had the OL to be able to comfortably do that, nor the RB(s), which were probably a product of the former.  

 

It simply seems that McD has major and terminal shortcomings in the big-picture view of the team.  

 

That's why words like dysfunctional and disarray(ed) have appeared in recent pieces discussing our team.  

 

We've had the #1 or #2 D three times in the past four seasons prior to this one, two of those times the best in the AFC as well, and we're 2-3 in the playoffs with wins only over the Skylar Thompson led Fins and the Pats two seasons ago.  

 

He seems to have reached his pinnacle.  

 

 

The initial quote I did not like but def agree with your post lol. Only real disagreement I have is those playoff games were losing the defense is not playing like the #1 or #2 defense.  they had a great game against baltimore in the divisional a few years ago but that was pretty much it. 
 

josh rescued them from a loss to Indy the week before that, he darned near pulled that chiefs divisional game out the next year and the defense collapsed, vs cincy everyone was bad, vs NE everyone was good.  There hasn’t really been a time where the defense has stepped up and bailed us out in the playoffs outside of that taron Johnson pick six.  
 

the bills defense has kind of reminded me of the dolphins offense, they do a ton of damage against bad/mediocre teams and then don’t really show up when you need a couple plays/stops out of them in the playoffs they can’t get them.  Then you’ve got someone like kc on the flip side who’s defense doesn’t get the accolades during the regular season but they are always making those big stops in the playoffs 

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

R-E-L-A-X !

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 hours ago, SD_Dog said:

Allen’s first quarter careless stare said it all and his play shows the results. The Second half come backs of the last three games he is a wide eyed focused QB. Keep the low positive BS on the sidelines.  

If Josh comes out with the 100 mile stare and starts with a couple 3 and out drives then put his ass on the bench for the rest of the quarter to get his attention.  That might get his full focus on the game and not this Jedi Mind Trick stuff. 

Nothing should be taken for granted and if you're not producing you're not playing.  Same as applies to every teammate.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Buffalo Ballin]

The article makes it appear that Josh is overthinking.

 

Simple solution: stop overthinking. Overthinking is harmful anyway.

 

Just play. Just do it. Let his arm do the talking.

[SoonerBillsFan]

21 hours ago, Last Guy on the Bench said:

Idiotic take (not you, the article). Clearly Josh is working on the mental side of his game and always has been. But the idea that reflection, experimentation, trying to grow and evolve (which of course will come with ups and downs) is somehow weak or confused or unhelpful is absurd. Sure overthinking things can be a problem in any area of life, but if that's happening, continued reflection will help him see that too. The article could have been interesting; the topic is interesting. But it's such a knee-jerk and/or clickbait angle. 

 Here is what concerns me, year 6 and he still hasn't figured it out.

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Only real disagreement I have is those playoff games were losing the defense is not playing like the #1 or #2 defense.

 

Great and accurate post.  You nailed it right there.  That's the point.  

 

If the primary thing that someone, McD in this particular case, brings, isn't apparent when it matters most, what's the point.  Everyone gets giddy about our #1/2 ranking unit that plays like the 32nd ranked unit at the most critical point.  

 

One has to at least begin questioning the wisdom of having someone that "specializes" in that area when it ultimately and regularly fails to assist the team in achieving it's ultimate goal.  

 

Which raises another point.  Some here have sincerely stated that they're quite content with simply having an "entertaining" regular season.  So it stands to reason when they say that they don't care about playoffs or a Lombardi.  I don't get it, but if that's their level of satisfaction, who are we to argue.  

 

No one cares about "culture" come playoff time.  Every team deep in the playoffs has a winning culture.  Nor every team has the coaching required to win it all.  We're one of 'em.  

 

But for the team, that is the goal, as they say so every year.  Getting back to the above, it should be obvious that McD is holding them back in that regard, not providing that "extra" that Super Bowl winning coaches typically bring.  

 

After seven seasons, waiting around to see whether a leopard is going to change it's spots doesn't seem like an odds-on strategy to me.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

R-E-L-A-X !

 

Oh, we're relaxed.  

 

A little too relaxed now.  

 

😁

 

 

[Aimee75]

19 hours ago, Roundybout said:

 
we get it, you hate Allen for some reason. you don’t have to keep posting the exact same thing over and over.

It's a weird hate too, not the usual "hate" like "I was wrong about him and now I look silly", but more like a hate breeding from jealousy(not something I usually think when I see people hating). It makes it even more uncomfortable.

[BuffaloRebound]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

If Josh comes out with the 100 mile stare and starts with a couple 3 and out drives then put his ass on the bench for the rest of the quarter to get his attention.  That might get his full focus on the game and not this Jedi Mind Trick stuff. 

Nothing should be taken for granted and if you're not producing you're not playing.  Same as applies to every teammate.

 

Seriously.  Jimbo wasn’t the brightest bulb either but he won on grit and toughness. Watching Josh talk in press conferences and after games has become cringeworthy.  Your game ain’t out-thinking the opponent. Do what you do best.  Sling it and run it when it’s there.  

[HappyDays]

It's really hilarious the weird narratives that form because of what the broadcast footage doesn't show.

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

It's really hilarious the weird narratives that form because of what the broadcast footage doesn't show.

 

I used to be ceaselessly amused by the nonsense people came up with from 4 seconds of video but it's reached the point of being stupidly annoying. 

[muppy]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:39 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

Interesting. And confirms some suspicions/issues I've been having.

 

For the first few years of his career, Josh was a dedicated, laser-focused work horse during each offseason. It seemed every year he would come back having worked on one specific area (footwork, upper body mechanics, etc) that really helped him dial in and show up with at least a 33% improvement in his game (which is huge).

 

By the end of 2021, he had his mechanics figured out and imo really only had one last hole in his game to address: his mindset.

 

After the 13s KC game, I thought he had enough inspiration to figure it out. He needs to be the fierce, almost angry competitor that we saw that the end of that KC game. It reminded me very much of how Brady plays every game. I was hoping he'd come into 2022 with a focused, killer mindset. And in the Rams opener, it kinda looked like he might have figured it out.

 

Unfortunately, by the Packers game it was apparent that mindset wouldnt stick, or was never really there to begin with.

 

And now, this new "low positive" sounds like the opposite of where I want him to be.

 

I love that Josh is a lovable goofball at heart, but I need a cold-blooded killer and fierce competitor.

I think he wants to obey McDermott. Who does not want to take undue chances of injury to Josh Allen. We all know this team is toast without him.  SO where is the balance between preserving your most valuable asset vs allowing he to play as his instincts tell him. Which is the OMG he is a BEAST Josh Allen.

 

For me it becomes a risk reward ratio. There are clearly pros and cons to each side of that "freeing Josh" vs a more conservative approach

 

What he needs to find is the perfect balance. And get time to do what he does best, make plays and great decisions.

 

easy right? lol

 

WE WISH 

[Big Turk]

Allen starting to sound like...waiting for a Yoda reference after tonight's game...

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Big Turk

[Jerome007]

Josh seems to be the incarnation of "momentum QB". When he is in rhythm, everything clicks, he plays loose, has fun, seems to see everything. If he and  the offense are not clicking, everything is a drag, he overthinks, blablabla. Now, of course ALL QBs are like this, but the so-called  "momentum QBs" a tad more. As usual with QBs, pressure them, make them uncomfortable in the pocket, and you beat them.

 

The thing is, Josh is good on the move. So first, they need to pick the blitzes better. They have been weak against it so far this year. Move the pocket on purpose, and have designed Josh "running to his right but passing" plays. With the usual misdirection plays, play action, sweeps, short passes mixed in. They were doing a great job of this weeks 2-3-4. 

[zow2]

Obviously the over-thinking and low key vibe is not helping in the first half, when things are more calm and scripted.  When Josh enters crisis mode in the 4th Qtr, when there is no time to think....he just plays the game on instincts and makes some great plays.

 

Remember when Allen participated in The Match, made for TV golf event?  I'll never forget this.  While watching Mahomes and Allen putt out, Brady was telling Rodgers that they need to plant some doubt into Josh Allen's head.  Rodgers made a little snide remark and told Brady, "don't worry about it, Josh will get into Josh's own head".  or something like that.  Rodgers knows.

[HappyDays]

 

[Carmel Corn]

7 hours ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

The article makes it appear that Josh is overthinking.

 

Simple solution: stop overthinking. Overthinking is harmful anyway.

 

Just play. Just do it. Let his arm do the talking.

AND his LEGS!!!  There’s a risk, but I feel the more he runs, better things happen.

[All_Pro_Bills]

After reading all the comments here and listening to the WGR morning show today where they discussed Josh and took some listener comments, I kind of feel like we're experiencing a football version of Talladega Nights.  Ricky Bobby, NASCAR driver, through a series of unique circumstances is transitioned from top professional driver to pizza delivery guy. 

 

In the case of the Bills, Josh Allen, highly effective and intense gunslinger QB running one of the league highest scoring and exciting offenses is transitioned by the HQ's timid ball control strategy into a boring and disinterested game manager.  Josh needs the football version of the speech the character Susan (played by Amy Adams) gave Ricky near the end of the movie.  Ricky needs to drive fast on the edge.  Josh needs to play QB fast on the edge.  Enough of this milking the clock stuff.  If you're going down, the go down swinging, not covering up and cowering in the corner pissing your pants afraid to make a mistake.

 

Part of the problem is the HC is under a delusion that if he plays ball control offense he can protect his defense.  But let's face the reality that if this defense is facing a QB that has a pulse and is still breathing and he gets the ball with a couple time outs and a few minutes on the clock you're defense isn't going to stop them anyway.  With 2 minutes left and the opponent with the ball the Bills need at least a 9 point lead.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Mickey from Rocky : Well, Rock, let's put it this way. Now, three years ago you was supernatural. You was hard and you was nasty and you had this cast-iron jaw but then the worst thing happened to you, that could happen to any fighter. You got civilized.