Worst "win" I've ever seen

[PBF81]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I really don’t know if I’m taking crazy pills or something but it seems as simple as…pass blocking bad offense bad.  Pass blocking good offense good to me for years now lol 

 

if we hold up up front we destroy teams typically.  Idk if people don’t want to believe this or they want to blame the qb/skill position players/ play design or what but the OL was a massive issue last night to the point where who even knows what the play design is?  Everything broke down pretty much instantly.  And you’ve got skill position players in chipping to help the OL out and they’re still getting smoked so that’s limiting the route tree of one/multiple pass catchers just to not quite hold up in pass protection.

 

people are like ohhh Ben Johnson in Detroit what a genius…one of the best offensive lines.  Oh Andy Reid another genius….perennially one of the best offensive lines. Games where their olines don’t hold up they look just as bad as anyone else. 

 

Fair

 

At the same time, you can always adjust to assist yourself, that's hardly a forte of ours, ... attributable to coaching.  

 

Secondly, did the team seem prepared to play yesterday?  It didn't to me, and many others, which again, would be attributable to coaching.  

 

 

[Low Positive]

3 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

I am curious.  What is your "best" loss you can remember?

Best loss of the current Bills run? TB in 2021. That loss led to the Bills winning out and taking the division from rookie phenom Mac Jones. It was the second-half comeback that sparked the run that ended in 13 seconds.

Edited October 16, 2023 by FrenchConnection
Wrong year

[QCity]

 

[blacklabel]

Meh. I really don't know what to tell this "awful win" crowd. There aren't any easy outs in the NFL, a win is a win. 

 

I know half of youse expected 63-0 but even though they're 1-4 going into that game, the Giants weren't just gonna roll over. Teams in those positions usually always knuckle up to play contenders. They wanna make a statement. They're not just gonna roll over and that DL is legit.

 

And I don't think it can be understated how much of an effect Daboll had. He knows exactly what makes Josh tick and what throws him off. 

 

The two drives that ended in turnovers, the offense was moving and in a groove. Giants make a good play to punch the ball out on Gabe, and then later they get the tip drill INT. That's the game sometimes. 

 

A win is a win. I'm sure they aren't fully satisfied with their performance but I'm not gonna sit here and whine about a victory. 

 

And let's kinda hear it for McDermott and the defense. Down four major starters and they hold them to nine points. Can't ask for much more. 

 

Also, the refs really tried to steal the show. Guess we were due for that kinda game. 

 

My only real gripe is, I wasn't exactly thrilled seeing a shotgun formation on 2nd and goal inside the one. C'mon man. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Ken will give you a head scratcher like that then he'll scheme up and call that great play to Harty for the TD. 

 

One mo' time, a win is a win. 

[BuffaloMatt]

I hate winning hat feels like losing. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

22 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Fair

 

At the same time, you can always adjust to assist yourself, that's hardly a forte of ours, ... attributable to coaching.  

 

Secondly, did the team seem prepared to play yesterday?  It didn't to me, and many others, which again, would be attributable to coaching.  

 

 

I think this is happening because we are adjusting for a bad offensive line though that’s the interesting part…this is a very damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.  You’re giving up the route tree of one/two skill position players to shore up the oline.

 

We probably could’ve run the ball under center more too I think that’s a valid criticism but that would’ve brought up more third and mediums likely that I’m not sure we would convert.  
 

I’ve watched the giants play all year being in downstate ny lol and their defense is honestly pretty good and a lot of their strengths are up front.  Theyve got a great DT which always gives us problems.  They’ve probably had the toughest starting schedule in the league and the giants miserable offense has been putting them in absolutely terrible situations.  if their offense played a little better last week they would’ve absolutely been in the game vs Miami who had two huge turnovers.
 

our defense has gone blameless because they’re fighting an uphill battle due to injuries but they gave up some long drives which kept our offense off the field…we only had 9 total drives.  if you’re gonna miss all your fg attempts 14 points on 9 total drives when your offensive line is getting smoked sounds about right.  If we had the typical 11-12 total drives we probably score 20 

 

I think at least a portion of this outrage is the result of fans not really understanding the opponent. To me it was just as much about our defense not being able to prevent long drives limiting our offense as our offense limiting our offense.  Some of that was due to unintentionally benching absolute clown Daniel jones for a qb with more mobility and some was saquon returning…hard to say how good/bad this current iteration of the giants offense is though 
 

Also when we started to get them on the ropes to begin the cycle of gassin out their defense the giants conveniently started a big fight that bought them like 10 minutes to catch their breath I thought that was pretty bush league from Daboll but it was pretty clever lol 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

Lol at the hit him in the hands crowd.  After he dove, sure.  How about hitting him somewhere in the vicinity of the numbers?  He was wide open.

He also didn’t come up with a crucial catch in OT against NYJ.  Just not a reliable player.

16 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

 

The two drives that ended in turnovers, the offense was moving and in a groove. Giants make a good play to punch the ball out on Gabe, and then later they get the tip drill INT. That's the game sometimes. 

That was poor ball security by Davis.  Why did he have the ball In his left (inside) arm?

[davspo]

Never apologize for a win.  This is a week to week league.  Was it inspiring- no.  Was it good football- no.  But its a win.  Remember, the undefeated Eagles lost to the Jets.  The PJ (whatever his name is) led Browns beat the 49ers.  Take the win and move on.   Are there issues, yes.  But it's a win. 

[jethro_tull]

9 hours ago, Herb said:

Dorsey has clearly been overthinking things to a detrimental point the past two weeks. When you have a generational talent like Josh, you owe it to the fans to be your absolute best every game. The Giants were the biggest underdog all season and it took an uncalled pass interference on the last play of the game to win with a healthy and dominant offense.

overthinking or just plain not very good at coordinating the offense. 

Mike Kafka did a very good job working with with what he had and outright embarrassed KD considering his offensive roster.  

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, jethro_tull said:

overthinking or just plain not very good at coordinating the offense. 

Mike Kafka did a very good job working with with what he had and outright embarrassed KD considering his offensive roster.  

Kafka wasn't playing against Dorsey. Martindale was, and he embarrassed Dorsey and Josh. I never think that teams lose by being "outcoached," because the players on the field have to execute. But if the Bills had lost that game, it would have been due to Martindale's game plan which probably had a lot of input from Daboll and his knowledge of the Bills playbook and tendencies. 

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

The TE should have caught it, period. Not a perfect throw but hit him in the hands and a catch NFL players make routinely. 

Right.  And this hit Ozzie in the hands too:

 

 

For Pete’s sake Josh blamed himself for that throw.  Try to look at reality on occasion.

[BaaadThingsMan]

That is why you play the game.

 

That is why you play the game.

 

That is why you play the game.

 

 

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, Malazan said:

Whos' feeling better about their team right now, Jets fans or Bills fans?

Hard to compare, we're a fanbase worried about everything coming a part hoping they can hold things together and find an identity as a contender. Jets fans are like a dead man thinking who cares lets see what happens.

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, PayDaBill$ said:

With Knox it doesn’t matter he’s a mediocre talent with mediocre hands. File under overpaid.

If you acknowledge that Josh made a bad throw do you think your fingers will burn off as you type the words?

[Success]

I'll take a worst win over a worst loss, any ol' day.

 

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, QCity said:

 

This is the most perfect summary of that game ever.

[BaaadThingsMan]

Every team wins ugly, i won't apologize for it.

 

I expected a blowout honestly. 

 

I hated the way the game played out but I understand the circumstances.

 

ie> Daboll, some former defensive coaches on NYs staff contributed to the slowing of the offense.

 

I'm happy today because they won.

 

Thats the bottom line and the only thing that matters. Bills won!!

 

 

[Offside Number 76]

10 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Thurman did say the K-Gun consisted of 12 plays. It’s the speed and relentless tempo that wore teams out. Right now it seems we are snapping the ball with seconds to go on the play clock. That’s not uptempo and I think we could use that intermittently to keep defenses gassed. 

It was 12 formations, not 12 plays.  

 

And I generally agree that they could take a little less time to get plays off--even at the expense of time of possession.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Offside Number 76

[CodeMonkey]

10 hours ago, Herb said:

In my entire history of watching our Bills, this was the most unsatisfying win I can ever remember. I'm 44 years old and have been a lifelong fan. If Bills management aren't 100% behind letting Josh call the plays after these last two weeks, we're in a lot of unnecessary trouble.

What makes you think that would be better?

[SF Bills Fan]

In the late 70’s I was at a Bills game where we beat the Bengals 5-0. That was pretty not a spectacular win either. 

[Herb]

5 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

What makes you think that would be better?

Just a hunch. Seems like he reads the field well enough and it has worked in the past with other great qbs.

[UKBillFan]

1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said:

If you acknowledge that Josh made a bad throw do you think your fingers will burn off as you type the words?

 

The throw wasn't great but Knox should have still caught it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[4merper4mer]

41 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

The throw wasn't great but Knox should have still caught it. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 No they aren’t but 95% of the fault on the play was Josh.  No one is touching the 17th rail.  Let’s kick everyone else off the team.  That’ll fix it.

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I think this is happening because we are adjusting for a bad offensive line though that’s the interesting part…this is a very damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.  You’re giving up the route tree of one/two skill position players to shore up the oline.

 

We probably could’ve run the ball under center more too I think that’s a valid criticism but that would’ve brought up more third and mediums likely that I’m not sure we would convert.  
 

I’ve watched the giants play all year being in downstate ny lol and their defense is honestly pretty good and a lot of their strengths are up front.  Theyve got a great DT which always gives us problems.  They’ve probably had the toughest starting schedule in the league and the giants miserable offense has been putting them in absolutely terrible situations.  if their offense played a little better last week they would’ve absolutely been in the game vs Miami who had two huge turnovers.
 

our defense has gone blameless because they’re fighting an uphill battle due to injuries but they gave up some long drives which kept our offense off the field…we only had 9 total drives.  if you’re gonna miss all your fg attempts 14 points on 9 total drives when your offensive line is getting smoked sounds about right.  If we had the typical 11-12 total drives we probably score 20 

 

I think at least a portion of this outrage is the result of fans not really understanding the opponent. To me it was just as much about our defense not being able to prevent long drives limiting our offense as our offense limiting our offense.  Some of that was due to unintentionally benching absolute clown Daniel jones for a qb with more mobility and some was saquon returning…hard to say how good/bad this current iteration of the giants offense is though 
 

Also when we started to get them on the ropes to begin the cycle of gassin out their defense the giants conveniently started a big fight that bought them like 10 minutes to catch their breath I thought that was pretty bush league from Daboll but it was pretty clever lol 

 

Maybe it was, but from what I saw I thought that the fight was naturally spawned.  Dawkins and whomever it was got into a tussle in a seemingly normal manner and it escalated from there.  Maybe it was contrived.  I'll acquiesce, file under who cares.  LOL  

 

You also ignore some things going the other way too.  Like the Giants' decision-making at the end of both halves.  They easily could have scored 14 more to your 6 more theory.  Just sayin'.  

 

At the end of the day they had more total yards, more passing yards, more rushing yards, a comparable number of 1st-Downs, ran more plays, converted nearly twice as many 3rd-downs, despite having more penalties and penalty yards. 

 

Either way, they came into this game ranking either 31st or 32nd in offense, now they're 32nd, DFL.  They haven't even averaged a dozen points-per-game, so holding them to 9 while watching them screw themselves out of one or possibly two TDs doesn't support notions that our D played well either.  Also consider, we allowed them their second most 1st-Downs, second most passing and total yards, and most rushing yards that they've logged all season.  

 

Our OL seems to have been playing quite well prior to this week.  Why the downturn, at home, in a game that was very important given last week, but against a defense and passing defense in particular that doesn't rank above average in any significant category and which ranks DFL in both sacks and QBHits, and fourth from the bottom in TFL.  They have 5 sacks, 4 of which are by Thibideax.  Not one other player has a full sack.  LOL  

 

Either way, back to my original point, we're not a team that's good at adjusting to what the opponents are giving us.  

 

And again, we didn't enter this game looking prepared. 

 

My concern is that over the past several seasons we've come out of the gates swinging, as if the early part of our season decided whether or not we were going to make the playoffs, then leveled off, which appears to be what is occurring again, ... as we approach the gauntlet of our schedule.  What's far more important is continuity over the course of a 17-game season now.  At this point I'm seeing a 10-7 wild-card team.  

 

Also concerning is that Dorsey's had 22 games now to prove some competence in regularly adjusting, not calling boneheaded plays that even the national media is all over, and for ensuring that we get the most out of this offense.  0 points through 3 Qs simply doesn't cut it, the fact that it was against the Giants only pours lemon juice into the cut.  

 

It raises serious questions, very serious ones in fact since his peers have done quite a bit better generally speaking at the top levels where he is, in that amount of games, as to whether he's suited for this role.  The only questions in my mind are who's really in charge offensively?  It sounds like Dorsey, but does McD have his undeducated hand in it?  To what extent does Allen impact things at the coaching level?  We don't know.  But the notion that Allen's the reason why Dorsey's here, and given Dorsey's blatant issues, that's a problem.  

 

I'm also critical of McD's role in it.  Does he have one?  If not, why not?  He's gotten quite a bit of lattitude on the issues of the offense, unearned IMO, when he's the head coach.  At what point is McD held accountable for Dorsey's inabilities or incompetencies?  Dorsey is ultimately McD's choice for OC, no one else's.  

 

McD's gotten quite a bit of mileage out of having been the one to "bring the Bills back," but the standard needs to be raised now, and questions need to start being asked whether he's the one to take this team across the Jordan.  And now with Allen's shoulder potentially injured.  They need solutions now, while Allen's here, not after another five seasons trying to see whether McD is the one to take us there despite his miserable ability to coach come playoff time.  

 

 

[UKBillFan]

Just now, 4merper4mer said:

 No they aren’t but 95% of the fault on the play was Josh.  No one is touching the 17th rail.  Let’s kick everyone else off the team.  That’ll fix it.

 

I'd say 60/40 to Josh. The throw should have been better, but Knox should have caught it. He had it in his stomach.

 

Perhaps just me, but I thought Diggs' drop in the first quarter was worse than Knox's in the fourth. Josh had to position that throw to avoid the defensive player (unlike Knox, who was wide open) and did quite well. I've seen receivers come down with those.

[Dr.Sack]

1 hour ago, Offside Number 76 said:

It was 12 formations, not 12 plays.  

 

And I generally agree that they could take a little less time to get plays off--even at the expense of time of possession.

The K-Gun was certainly not 12 formations. 11 personnel. I remember Thurman saying 12 plays. It wasn’t that multiple formation wise. It was  beauty in simplicity and execution. 

[blacklabel]

4 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

He also didn’t come up with a crucial catch in OT against NYJ.  Just not a reliable player.

That was poor ball security by Davis.  Why did he have the ball In his left (inside) arm?

 

I dunno. Track him down, start an investigation. 

 

Orr...sometimes the other team just makes a good play and that's that. Ball looked pretty secure to me. Giants defender just landed a solid punch right on it and out it came. It was also a foot away from rolling out of bounds. Them's just the breaks sometimes.

 

It's just kind of... peculiar how so many fans believe any negative play that happens to the Bills is somehow their own fault and their own doing...instead of just realizing that sometimes the other team makes a good play and has a bounce go their way. That's the game. 

[Offside Number 76]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:48 PM, Dr.Sack said:

The K-Gun was certainly not 12 formations. 11 personnel. I remember Thurman saying 12 plays. It wasn’t that multiple formation wise. It was  beauty in simplicity and execution. 

 

I posted a link to the actual playbook.  Not sure what would be more authoritative than that.

[1ManRaid]

Q - What do you call the person with the lowest grade from medical school?

A - Doctor.

 

Good teams find a way to win, sometimes even when at their worst.  Fortunately the refs weren't completely against us like they have been in recent years to tip the scales to an L.  We were in the same kind of "bad but should have won" game a couple years ago against the Jags where the refs blatantly tipped the favor towards the then-bad Jags, resulting in a loss that "didn't deserve to win anyways".  Would you be happier if we lost vs the Giants?  Some people clearly would be...

[Dr.Sack]

51 minutes ago, Offside Number 76 said:

 

I posted a link to the actual playbook.  Not sure what would be more authoritative than that.

Post link in response below. Don’t have time to search. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 10/16/2023 at 6:40 AM, ExiledInIllinois said:

I have seen the Bills lose on last play from scrimmage TD... At stadium, in person... Was that the worst lost.  It was against JAX. Back when the rule was "catch but pushed out."  Didn't even get feet in. I forget what year, but it was during "TheDrought."

 

 

The Ernest Wilford game.

[Offside Number 76]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Post link in response below. Don’t have time to search. 

Not my problem, Leon.  Either look at the post or shut up.  No wonder you name yourself after Seals instead of Smith, you lazy man.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Offside Number 76

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

The Ernest Wilford game.

I am still traumatized. 

 

That's where they ruled catch, but the rule at time was he was pushed out of bounds, but still counted even though both feet didn't make it in... Right?

 

 

Boy have we've got the old screw-gee through the years! 😕 

[MJS]

Cry me a river...

[Beast]

OK, Herbivore.

[juno999]

On 10/16/2023 at 10:09 AM, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Idk why everyone is hung up on ‘it was the giants’…I don’t care who it was…their front 7 absolutely obliterated us to levels no other team that is supposedly way better on paper has this year.  You plug any other qb in there not named mahomes and they have absolutely no shot at making any of those drive extending plays last night.  Not sure it’s even debatable.  I mean, y’all can continue with the ‘you don’t think anyone else can score on the giants’ shtick but that is very clearly not what I meant 😂.
 

Idk if it was Daboll knowing our OL tendencies or the giants defense finally not being on the field for 45 minutes or what but they absolutely roasted us up front. Dexter Lawrence has unquestionably been a beast all season though so idk how ridiculously surprising it is 

 

there were also quite a few loooong drives for both teams in this one.  Normally the giants go instantly three and out lol we got 9 total drives in this one 

people sayin geno scored on the giants why couldn’t the bills should probably review the stat line from that game…pretty much the entire Seahawks offensive output came on one busted coverage with lock at qb…Seahawks had even less total yardage than us on two more drives.  Cowboys had less total yardage than us also in their 40-0 win if you can believe that 🤣. Dak was 13/24 for 143 yards.  They did a decent job against tua…he just cracked 300 yards but he turned it over twice.
 

The giants offense has been what is losing them games..  they have been historically awful up until

this game.  Everything snowballs for them because they are a blitz heavy team and their guys gas out when their offense goes three and out ten times in a row.  I think the Daniel jones injury really helped them out,  tyrod is the kind of qb they need.  He will not make a mistake leading to a sudden change for his defense and he’s got more mobility than jones 

 

 

 

 

The Giants played a very inspired game the other night.  Giants fans said it was their best effort this season.  The Giants D line caused all kinds of pressure on the Bills oline and on Allen.  Allen did a nice job of not getting sacked.  I'll be curious to see Giants play going forward.  Are they getting it together or was that a one off.  FWIW, Dawkins, McGovern, and Brown had bad PFF grades for this game.

[PromoTheRobot]

I saw the 1987 strike team beat the Giants. Nothing will beat that.

Edited October 22, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[dgrochester55]

21 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

I saw the 1987 strike team beat the Giants. Nothing will beat that.

 

I was ten years old, barely understood football and still realized how ugly of a game that it was.    The scenario was a picket line crossing Lawrence Taylor against an offense full of taxi-drivers, car salesman and gym teachers yet somehow we won because the Giants were even more inept in offense.  One of the very few games in the modern era where a 0-0 game was a real possibility.

[Unforgiven]

Really isn't a 'bad win' like 'jumbo shrimp'?

[Doc]

It was an ugly win.  Wasn't "worst" and an ugly win is better than a pretty (or ugly) loss.