Over-reaction Three Weeks In.... Offense seems disjointed

[Warriorspikes51]

This team has the uncommon ability to win any given game with great defense or great offense...or both 
 

 

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

This team has the uncommon ability to win any given game with great defense or great offense...or both 
 

 

 

They have the ability to lose any given game with dreadful defense or dreadful offense... or both... too.

[Not at the table Karlos]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:18 AM, The Jokeman said:

We have the 2nd most points scored in the league. 

Is that because we're playing within the structure of the offense or is Josh making plays outside of the design of the play. 

 

A lot of the times it's Josh extending the play and not the play design or call. 

 

I ask this pretty much daily. Why do people act like only one thing can be true? Yes we may score points but that doesn't mean everything is perfect. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Not at the table Karlos

[Warriorspikes51]

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

They have the ability to lose any given game with dreadful defense or dreadful offense... or both... too.

Time for some fresh air and sunshine

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

They have the ability to lose any given game with dreadful defense or dreadful offense... or both... too.

 

Just like every team in the league.  Imagine that.

[The Jokeman]

54 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Is that because we're playing within the structure of the offense or is Josh making plays outside of the design of the play. 

 

A lot of the times it's Josh extending the play and not the play design or call. 

 

I ask this pretty much daily. Why do people act like only one thing can be true? Yes we may score points but that doesn't mean everything is perfect. 

what offense is perfect?  I'm sure KC doesn't draw up plays for Mahomes to run backwards and then sideways and throwing balls left handed etc. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

what offense is perfect? 

Miami pretty much against Denver, Bills vs. NE ?

[Not at the table Karlos]

4 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

what offense is perfect?  I'm sure KC doesn't draw up plays for Mahomes to run backwards and then sideways and throwing balls left handed etc. 

None. But the goal is to be as close to perfect as you can be. I’m sure the Chefs coaches still correct whatever failed on the play and not just say we scored points so there’s no reason to criticize. 

[streetkings01]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:00 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Great so McD has decided to take away their greatest strength Josh Allen and put a muzzle on him?  Maybe he can do the same thing with Mahomes?

Worked the last 2 weeks. Balanced offense and dominant defense…….both ended in blowout wins 🤷🏽‍♂️

[Billsfan1972]

Again the Bills played inferior opposition.  

 

As said you probably feel that Reid should put a muzzle on Mahomes?

 

Every time the Bills have a great game, especially on defense and the Offense really didn't need to score 35+, we hear the same about the genius McD controlling Josh and his "mistakes".

 

Let's  see what happens in tighter games.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again the Bills played inferior opposition.  

 

As said ypu probably feel that Reid should put a muzzle on Majomes?

 

Everything the Bills have a great game, especially on defense and the Offense really didn't need to score 35+, we hear the same about the genius McD controlling Josh and his "mistakes".

 

Let's  see what happens in tighter games.

 

Josh needs to be allowed to make mistakes. He just needs not to make them. I long for the 2020 and late 2021 / early 2022 consistency. If we get that this is a Superbowl team. Without it what the rest do won't really matter. It always comes back to Quarterback.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

They've made it hard on themselves at times... but they have the best 3rd down conversion % in the league.  They seem to stall in the red zone - but the 61.5% is better than a year ago, and is currently 11th in the league.  There's room for improvement here for sure.  

 

27th in offensive penalties

4th in offensive scoring percentage.  

12th in net passing yards, 7th in rushing yards.  

 

Yes- miami has the best passing and rushing offense in the NFL right now.  No they won't finish the year with a yards per attempt 2.5 yards more than any NFL team this year or last.  No they won't continue to average 6.1 yards per attempt.  They're humming right now, but injuries happen and teams start playing you differently, bad weather... etc. 

 

Buffalo has not played their best ball on offense to start the year.  They do lead the league in the average length of drive, 2nd in plays per drive, and 2nd in points per drive.  Those time of possession advantages give you more plays, more plays means more yards, more yards means more points (assuming you don't turn it over).  They ran 65 plays to 51 for wash - 74 to 39 for the raiders - and 68 to 53 for the jets.  

[JoPoy88]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:47 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep 75 points the last two weeks (7 by the defense) and a very scary Miami team this week.

 

Yesterday was never in doubt, but face it the Bills only had 16 points entering the 4th.

 

Been said in other threads and not ready to state this is a serious issue, but the Offense just seems a little off (and let's forget about the Jets game).

 

Week two I commented the red zone was somewhat of a slog and while the Bills moved up and down the field, it was primarily dinks and dunks and little over the middle.  No screens, TE's seem underutilized and none of those 20 yard lasers Allen is great at. 

 

Yesterday a great TD pass to Davis (his only catch of the day) and a few bb's to Diggs, three big scrambles by Josh and the last drive 64 yards rushing (with the game over), but again the offense I hope is a work in progress as I am not seeing a team firing on all cylinders. 

 

As said hope it is just an over-reaction.

 

  

Spoiler alert - They aren’t going to score 50 every week. The offense has been plenty good

[34-78-83]

This is what a balanced offense that "takes what they are giving" against mostly 2 high safety looks, looks like. It's what the Chiefs had to do last year to succeed against how they were being played, with a bit more success (so far) than KC in the running game.

[HappyDays]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:40 AM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

By the way, I sort of wonder if there would be less griping had Gabe Davis gotten both feet down on that beautiful throw into the endzone and we would have been up 20-0 going into half. 

 

But that sort of goes to the point. The offense is somewhat lackluster because an inconsistent guy like Gabe Davis is our #2. I'm more than happy with our pass protection and our run game so far. Dorsey has made a few too many goofy play calls for my liking but overall I am satisfied with the design of the offense and the balanced play calling. The concern for me, as it has been since January, is that we still don't have anybody behind Diggs that can consistently be relied on. I feel like I'm beating my own dead horse here but it is just so hard to have a consistent offense with that handicap. I hope at some point we make a trade for an established pass catcher.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

But that sort of goes to the point. The offense is somewhat lackluster because an inconsistent guy like Gabe Davis is our #2. I'm more than happy with our pass protection and our run game so far. Dorsey has made a few too many goofy play calls for my liking but overall I am satisfied with the design of the offense and the balanced play calling. The concern for me, as it has been since January, is that we still don't have anybody behind Diggs that can consistently be relied on. I feel like I'm beating my own dead horse here but it is just so hard to have a consistent offense with that handicap. I hope at some point we make a trade for an established pass catcher.

I’m happy with our pass protection too, but we’re also using our TEs and RBs to help our tackles more than most teams do imo.  That limits our passing concepts.  Spencer Brown is still a problem
 

I thought Kincaid would be used as a slot WR.  Instead, he’s a designated chip and leak target.  I think we have the pass catcher you’re looking for (albeit not “established”)…..but we don’t know how to use him.  Or maybe we know how, but aren’t showing all of our cards. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

this whole thing is confusing concerning his usage

Edited September 26, 2023 by NewEra

[Lost]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I’m happy with our pass protection too, but we’re also using our TEs and RBs to help our tackles more than most teams do imo.  That limits our passing concepts.  
 

I thought Kincaid would be used as a slot WR.  Instead, he’s a designated chip and leak target.  I think we have the pass catcher you’re looking for (albeit not “established”)…..but we don’t know how to use him.  Or maybe we know how, but aren’t showing all of our cards. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

this whole thing is confusing concerning his usage

 

I think Dorsey may have been trying to help Josh get more comfortable staying in the pocket so having the TE's stay in an chip might be slowly phased out as the OL continues to prove reliable.   At least that's my hope.   I'm growing tired of losing parlays because neither Knox or Kincaid can muster 15 receiving yards 😂

[NewEra]

21 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

I think Dorsey may have been trying to help Josh get more comfortable staying in the pocket so having the TE's stay in an chip might be slowly phased out as the OL continues to prove reliable.   At least that's my hope.   I'm growing tired of losing parlays because neither Knox or Kincaid can muster 15 receiving yards 😂

👍🏻 agreed.  Good point on getting Josh comfortable in the pocket again.  He looked she’ll shocked in preseason and Vs the jets.  No trust in pass pro
 

Waiting on Spencer brown to prove reliable has been a theme for 3 seasons.  He’s looked better this season, but he’s still been below average to poor imo.  He’s just not the worst RT in the league anymore, like he’s been in recent years.  If I had to wager, he’ll never be reliable enough to trust in pass protection on a regular basis. He’s going to require help all season.  Solid run blocker though.  

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I’m happy with our pass protection too, but we’re also using our TEs and RBs to help our tackles more than most teams do imo.  That limits our passing concepts.  Spencer Brown is still a problem
 

I thought Kincaid would be used as a slot WR.  Instead, he’s a designated chip and leak target.  I think we have the pass catcher you’re looking for (albeit not “established”)…..but we don’t know how to use him.  Or maybe we know how, but aren’t showing all of our cards. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

this whole thing is confusing concerning his usage

 

Finally, someone understands this. I was talking about Brown in the Collins thread. People telling me Brown is fine and I'm bashing him.  I try to point out that he isn't fine and that he is getting a lot of help. I'm then told every right tackle gets help. I said it's limiting our passing game. I was then told I am bashing and that Brown is playing very well.  Just smh.

[NewEra]

39 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Finally, someone understands this. I was talking about Brown in the Collins thread. People telling me Brown is fine and I'm bashing him.  I try to point out that he isn't fine and that he is getting a lot of help. I'm then told every right tackle gets help. I said it's limiting our passing game. I was then told I am bashing and that Brown is playing very well.  Just smh.

Life on TBD!!

 

Just watch the tape people.  He hasn’t been good in pass protection and keeping TEs in to help him as much as we do has definitely limited us.  He’s been solid as a run blocker

Edited September 26, 2023 by NewEra

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

I’m happy with our pass protection too, but we’re also using our TEs and RBs to help our tackles more than most teams do imo.  That limits our passing concepts.  Spencer Brown is still a problem
 

I thought Kincaid would be used as a slot WR.  Instead, he’s a designated chip and leak target.  I think we have the pass catcher you’re looking for (albeit not “established”)…..but we don’t know how to use him.  Or maybe we know how, but aren’t showing all of our cards. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

 

this whole thing is confusing concerning his usage

Paid attention to him a lot in last game. The times he didn't chip and leak his routes for the most part took a long time to develop. A few times as he was breaking open Josh ran out of time and had to go elsewhere. Same thing with Knox(noticed it last year in Bengals playoff game as well. He was getting open but his routes took forever) 

[Chandler#81]

On 9/25/2023 at 7:00 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Great so McD has decided to take away their greatest strength Josh Allen and put a muzzle on him?  Maybe he can do the same thing with Mahomes?

Lighten up, Francis.

7 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Time for some fresh air and sunshine

There is no fresh air and sunshine in the UK. EVER!

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

There is no fresh air and sunshine in the UK. EVER!

 

Wow. Wow. I am reporting you to someone. A mod. The President. The United Nations. God. How very DARE you?

[Chandler#81]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Wow. Wow. I am reporting you to someone. A mod. The President. The United Nations. God. How very DARE you?

You wear a bowler and carry an umbrella with you everywhere you go, right?

nuff said.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

You wear a bowler and carry an umbrella with you everywhere you go, right?

nuff said.

 

The only people who carry umbrellas in London are the tourists and every time one of them pokes me in the side of the head with them outside a tube station they get barged. It is a toss up between the Chinese and the Americans who are the worst. 

 

[HappyDays]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:56 PM, uninja said:

I'm just going to point out that I can't believe we're experiencing an era of Bills football that I'm alive for where the major topic of conversation on the board is that our offense looks 'clunky' or 'disjointed' despite literally being one of the top 5 scoring offenses the last few years.

 

Most NFL teams would KILL for our offensive production and all we can do is moan that it doesn't look pretty enough 🤣

 

Well we're past the point of rooting to be ranked in top 5 offensive statistics. We've been there since 2020. Now we want a Super Bowl. And when you look at offenses that have made it to and won the Super Bowl in recent years, it's fair to wonder if our personnel and/or coaching on that side of the ball are at that level. If all of the consternation sounds like nitpicking, maybe it is, but that's the level of detail needed to win a championship.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well we're past the point of rooting to be ranked in top 5 offensive statistics. We've been there since 2020. Now we want a Super Bowl. And when you look at offenses that have made it to and won the Super Bowl in recent years, it's fair to wonder if our personnel and/or coaching on that side of the ball are at that level. If all of the consternation sounds like nitpicking, maybe it is, but that's the level of detail needed to win a championship.

 

It's personnel imo

 

I actually give the scheme and playcalling credit for getting as much out of that side of the ball as they have thus far

[HappyDays]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

It's personnel imo

 

I actually give the scheme and playcalling credit for getting as much out of that side of the ball as they have thus far

 

For the most part I agree. Dorsey has some goofy play calls but overall I'm satisfied with how balanced his play calling has been.

 

We just don't have anyone consistent behind Diggs. It is a big concern. Our run game is better but isn't going to win us games. So once again we're stuck relying on Josh Allen superhero mode.

[GoBills808]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

For the most part I agree. Dorsey has some goofy play calls but overall I'm satisfied with how balanced his play calling has been.

 

We just don't have anyone consistent behind Diggs. It is a big concern. Our run game is better but isn't going to win us games. So once again we're stuck relying on Josh Allen superhero mode.

I mean that's been the story for the last couple years now

 

honestly kind of at a loss that they haven't addressed the WR position and are instead weirdly leaning into the run game...don't understand it tbh

[uninja]

35 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well we're past the point of rooting to be ranked in top 5 offensive statistics. We've been there since 2020. Now we want a Super Bowl. And when you look at offenses that have made it to and won the Super Bowl in recent years, it's fair to wonder if our personnel and/or coaching on that side of the ball are at that level. If all of the consternation sounds like nitpicking, maybe it is, but that's the level of detail needed to win a championship.

 

Eh, how many years did NE look messy in some games, dominant in others or just looked like a good but not great team that just made a play when it mattered?

 

I think the Bills are plenty good, good enough to win a championship for sure. They just need to be able to make a play when it really matters. 

[Freddie's Dead]

I disagree with the premise.  The Bills are making a concerted effort this year to be more balanced on offense.  While developing a running game, I expect to see growing pains, especially with two new guards on the OL.  Dorsey has also had some very strange playcalls which is not helping (what's with all the draws and 2nd and long?).  Even "disjointed", the offense is putting up good numbers, JA is taking what the defense gives him, and the three-headed monster at running back is working.  Now all we gotta do is figure out how to get Reuben more involved.....

[Billsfan1972]

12 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

I disagree with the premise.  The Bills are making a concerted effort this year to be more balanced on offense.  While developing a running game, I expect to see growing pains, especially with two new guards on the OL.  Dorsey has also had some very strange playcalls which is not helping (what's with all the draws and 2nd and long?).  Even "disjointed", the offense is putting up good numbers, JA is taking what the defense gives him, and the three-headed monster at running back is working.  Now all we gotta do is figure out how to get Reuben more involved.....

Perfectly fine when the game is never in doubt (i.e. the last two weeks).  Let's see what happens when the opposition is capable of 30+ points (i.e. Miami).   

[newcam2012]

9 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

They've made it hard on themselves at times... but they have the best 3rd down conversion % in the league.  They seem to stall in the red zone - but the 61.5% is better than a year ago, and is currently 11th in the league.  There's room for improvement here for sure.  

 

27th in offensive penalties

4th in offensive scoring percentage.  

12th in net passing yards, 7th in rushing yards.  

 

Yes- miami has the best passing and rushing offense in the NFL right now.  No they won't finish the year with a yards per attempt 2.5 yards more than any NFL team this year or last.  No they won't continue to average 6.1 yards per attempt.  They're humming right now, but injuries happen and teams start playing you differently, bad weather... etc. 

 

Buffalo has not played their best ball on offense to start the year.  They do lead the league in the average length of drive, 2nd in plays per drive, and 2nd in points per drive.  Those time of possession advantages give you more plays, more plays means more yards, more yards means more points (assuming you don't turn it over).  They ran 65 plays to 51 for wash - 74 to 39 for the raiders - and 68 to 53 for the jets.  

Great use of stats and analysis. 

 

It feel like it's difficult to win playing offense this way. The Bills seemingly struggle to move the ball in chunks. They seem to be a short passing team with a good running game.  Just seems like old school football rather than modern day football. Can they sustain winning like this? Is this the new offensive of the Bills? 

 

I want to see an explosive offense that can score quickly or on one play. I'm just not seeing that after a short 3 game sample. This offense seems nothing like the offense of a couple of years ago. 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Just rewatched the first half of offensive snaps….woof:

 

- Dorsey has to lose the RPO/Zone/Draw

 

- What kind of route concepts are these? On a few plays, it was just run off the LOS and turn around. One play in the RZ 3rd and long, Diggs in motion on the snap and he just loafs off the line a few yards and looks back. It’s bizarre. 

 

- guys still seem to be clogged up in their routes

 

- Allen is creating when nothing is there (what’s new) 

 

- Harty is JAG.

 

- Morse and Torrence seemed to have a tough go

 

- Disjointed for sure: as the OP stated, a few big Allen scrambles and off-script strikes kept those drives going…

 

- Shakir with a nice out route on a 3rd down to gain separation for the 1st

 

16 points in the first half, aided by multiple turnovers and a goal line stand on 4th down. This offense can be so much better and I hope Dorsey is ready to unleash something new. 
 

- quick screen game is awful: 1st okay to Kincaid and a 3rd and long to Diggs both lost yards. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by EmotionallyUnstable

[Billsfan1972]

7 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Just rewatched the first half of offensive snaps….woof:

 

- Dorsey has to lose the RPO/Zone/Draw

 

- What kind of route concepts are these? On a few plays, it was just run off the LOS and turn around. One play in the RZ 3rd and long, Diggs in motion on the snap and he just loafs off the line a few yards and looks back. It’s bizarre. 

 

- guys still seem to be clogged up in their routes

 

- Allen is creating when nothing is there (what’s new) 

 

- Harty is JAG.

 

- Morse and Torrence seemed to have a tough go

 

- Disjointed for sure: as the OP stated, a few big Allen scrambles and off-script strikes kept those drives going…

 

- Shakir with a nice out route on a 3rd down to gain separation for the 1st

 

16 points in the first half, aided by multiple turnovers and a goal line stand on 4th down. This offense can be so much better and I hope Dorsey is ready to unleash something new. 
 

- quick screen game is awful: 1st okay to Kincaid and a 3rd and long to Diggs both lost yards. 

And again, why do some people get so upset when one states what seems pretty obvious just watching the game?

 

As I said in the OP 75 points is great, and yes only 3 games in but there are issues to be addressed as the offense just seems off.  

 

Sunday will be a much better litmus test.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean that's been the story for the last couple years now

 

honestly kind of at a loss that they haven't addressed the WR position and are instead weirdly leaning into the run game...don't understand it tbh

 

Agreed on the wide receiver position. Dorsey didn't help on Sunday though. Think he called good games weeks 1 and 2. Less so this past week. 

 

I think they are leaning into the run game because James Cook has emerged as our 2nd most reliable way of getting yards after the Allen - Diggs connection. He is playing more consistently than any of the other receiving options. 

 

Kincaid is really having a tough time getting his route depths right. 

[RunTheBall]

I’ve been a big Dorsey critic but after re-watching each game, I think he’s called some pretty good games. Yeah there are questionable calls at times but how he’s attacked what has mostly been the 2-high shell has been sound.

 

Hate to say it but Josh is part of the problem. He whips through his progressions and sometimes comes off the #1 read too quick. I think I read somewhere we are last in the league in number of completions to our first read. I think putting him under center and using more play action will get him into a better rhythm. Still too much shotgun for my liking especially in short yardage situations. Some ball placement issues have lead to less YAC than was there also. Execution is another issue has others have mentioned - guys have a chance to make plays and they either drop the ball or don’t get separation.

 

Brown didn’t get nearly as much help against the Commanders as he did against the Raiders and held up pretty well. Baby steps.

 

Overall I think we are seeing and offense that is changing from what it was and finding a new identity. Finding what works. As long as we stack Ws I’m fine with them finding their way and hopefully start to ramp up by mid season.

 

I know Miami is playing lights out but IDK if that’s sustainable. They look like they are peaking in the first quarter of the season and will regress to the mean a bit but time will tell.

 

[BananaB]

I think we’re at a point like late in the season last year except we are really starting to work underneath instead mid to long range. It looks off because that’s not who Allen is and at this point he’s kind of forced to do it. The hype this off-season was how much better we were with Harty, Sherfield and Kincaid but none of them have made a big impact. Kincaid seems reliable but not getting the looks we expected after hearing Beane say he was Cole Beasley at TE. Harty looks worse the Lil Dirty out there. Sherfield is a ghost most of the time. 

[Billsfan1972]

32 minutes ago, BananaB said:

I think we’re at a point like late in the season last year except we are really starting to work underneath instead mid to long range. It looks off because that’s not who Allen is and at this point he’s kind of forced to do it. The hype this off-season was how much better we were with Harty, Sherfield and Kincaid but none of them have made a big impact. Kincaid seems reliable but not getting the looks we expected after hearing Beane say he was Cole Beasley at TE. Harty looks worse the Lil Dirty out there. Sherfield is a ghost most of the time. 

And that is my concern (bold red) and hope it is just short-term and based on two "laughers".  

 

However if this is McD again holding him back, which yes I think he does (and yes my opinion) this will be an issue and usually is when playing quality opponents.

[billsfan_34]

I like where our o line is headed. Once they fully gel we should see much better play on offense.