Training Camp 8/1 9:45

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

It isn't scary having a rookie starting on the offensive line.  It happens every season with a lot of teams.   For the linemen, some guys just have it.   That's why I'm excited about Torrence.   If he's good enough to start, he's going to do nothing but help.   Will he make an occasional mistake?  Sure, but everyone makes mistakes.  If he's good enough to start, he's better than Bates, and that's a good thing.  And as others have said, and I repeated yesterday, the problem with the pass protection has been the middle.   If the middle is solid, and if Dawkins is good enough, having a weak right tackle is a relatively small problem, because that's the easiest direction for Josh to handle the pass rush from. 

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

 

No, we didn't basically add one guy to our OL.  

 

Did the Chiefs not build an elite OL (in part) due to drafting two top tier IOL in Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith?

 

By all accounts, Torrence was the best pure Guard in the Draft.  He slid because teams (ours included) value position flex on the OL.  Given we have so much of that, we can take a swing on a guy who can only play Guard.  

 

McGovern is entering his prime years, and is an above average pass blocker / slightly below average run blocker up to this point.    In today's NFL, that's the DNA of a good Offensive Lineman with some further potential.  

 

Bates may start the season at RG, and if he does, ok.. fine.. he's solid.  However, we added two big pieces to the OL.  Two guys who can reasonably be expected to be upgrades to the OL.  

 

No guarantees, and maybe they flop, but two big additions were made.. not one.  

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by SCBills

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

If the Bills listened to every knee jerk reaction every time someone drops a pass there would be no one left on the roster to catch passes.  

Dawkins catches most the balls they throw to him.  

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think what's lost on the people who insist you are over-reacting to Shakir dropping passes is that he was a ball dropper last year and he needs to be a guy who drops maybe 1 pass in 20 targets.   He's getting just a handful of targets daily so it's notable when he's being noted for dropping some of those few targets.   He won't make it dropping 2 out of every 20 targets.......that's approaching a league worst kinda' drop rate.   

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

[Lost]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

Dawkins catches most the balls they throw to him.  

 

Tommy Doyle has 100% catch rate with the Bills

[Logic]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

ok but guessing defense would remove LBs and replace with DBs with only Allen being able to run the ball. 6 DB, 1 LB for Allen and you're covered. 

Fair.

The only thing I'd point out is that, based on camp reports, Allen has actually handed the ball off to Knox a time or two from this "two TE backfield" formation. Maybe that's the counter if the defense does goes dime formation.

You don't want to be handing it off to your TE too often, of course, but maybe it's something they'd employ occasionally to keep defenses honest.

[34-78-83]

 The thing I've noticed that gets left out of these flash reports is context. Very few of the reports are providing that. For example, one practice day, most of the action was in the red zone (ie. tight space and timing). On another day, the team worked almost exclusively on 1st/2nd down (ie. advantage offense), today it was mostly 3rd and long situations (ie. advantage defense). Context matters.

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Tweets cause you to feel this way.  You haven’t even seen him play this year and you’re done?   You’re better than that.

 

I agree that it’s frustrating to see tweets about him dropping passes-  but you can’t let social media dictate your feeling about a player. 

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

Yeah, it's too early, but Bado's point is correct.   A guy like Shakir doesn't create plays; he takes advantage of opportunities that are created by the guys who DO create, like Allen and Diggs and Cook and (we can hope, Kincaid).  If you're a player who takes advantage of opportunities then, well, you have to take advantage.  In other words, you have to catch it when it comes to you.   One drop in 20 may be too much to ask, but I'm concerned when it seems there's a daily drop or two.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

 The thing I've noticed that gets left out of these flash reports is context. Very few of the reports are providing that. For example, one practice day, most of the action was in the red zone (ie. tight space and timing). On another day, the team worked almost exclusively on 1st/2nd down (ie. advantage offense), today it was mostly 3rd and long situations (ie. advantage defense). Context matters.

Agree for the most part but parsing intent and tone has always been a reader's responsibility, be it long form reporting/tweets/what have you

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

He’s a 5th round pick in his 2nd training camp. Maybe people should manage their expectations better so they wouldn’t feel like they are relying on a player like that.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Bring a numbers guy, you should definitely understand that 20 targets isn't credible/far too few to pass judgment on a rookie.  1 fluke pass/drop, and there you go.  His Dolphins drop LY was a momentum killer and inexcusable at the time, but not his MO.

 

Agree a 10% drop rate isn't good at all, but if Shakir only sees 20 targets this year then that clearly means Kincaid/Harty/Sherfield are getting the targets...and nobody will be critiquing Shakirs 20, but the others who are getting looks.

 

Shakir MO has always been solid to great hands.  At Boise St, it was always a plus and his RAC ability.  He also showed well in camp LY, and earlier this May.  Beane has been praising him.

 

I think it's just way too early to pass judgment.  It's overreacting when someone says they're done with a player, especially someone coming into Year 2 who only had 20 targets....and especially when they're making that judgment on twitter reports (which have been inconsistent).  Perhaps the same conclusion will be reached at a later point, but not triggered based on inconsistent twitter reports

 

 

2 out of 20

3 out of 27(counting playoffs)

Being noted for drops in camp.

 

You NOT being a numbers guy........perhaps don't have perspective on how few passes NFL receivers really drop.  

[MasterStrategist]

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Yeah, it's too early, but Bado's point is correct.   A guy like Shakir doesn't create plays; he takes advantage of opportunities that are created by the guys who DO create, like Allen and Diggs and Cook and (we can hope, Kincaid).  If you're a player who takes advantage of opportunities then, well, you have to take advantage.  In other words, you have to catch it when it comes to you.   One drop in 20 may be too much to ask, but I'm concerned when it seems there's a daily drop or two.  

My comment was focused on people already being done with him, because of some twitter reports on drops.

 

Yes, he had drops in college...some were bad (like Miami game), some bc he has short arms.  But he has strong/50-50 type hands and a skill set we lack with RAC.

 

We will see what happens, but I think Shakir actually does create plays.  He's good RAC, catching in traffic, and creating separation in routes.  He struggled against reading zones and nuances of being a rookie.

 

I have higher expectations for Dalton, and he's a better player than Shakir.  But Shakir will likely turn out to be our primary slot guy, when Kincaid isn't out there, and used in a variety of ways.

[34-78-83]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Agree for the most part but parsing intent and tone has always been a reader's responsibility, be it long form reporting/tweets/what have you

For short form tweets etc, that's fair, but we both know that typical readers are going to go ahead and do what they do and think either the sky is falling or their guy is going to be the greatest ever. I'd suggest to the typical reader to consider the other variables like down and distance/ situational football before jumping off their bridges :), and find their content from those who provide that level of detail.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

He’s a 5th round pick in his 2nd training camp. Maybe people should manage their expectations better so they wouldn’t feel like they are relying on a player like that.

He's projected to get significant tick id say a little concern is warranted

[SCBills]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He had the same problem last year. It's also been a recurring issue at training camp this year and was one of the weaknesses on his scouting report coming out of Boise State. It might just be who he is. I have no patience left for trying to rely on unreliable players. If he had some other elite skill like explosiveness or route running you can live with below average hands, but his skill set overall is just "fine slot WR." Trust me I'm not overreacting to one training camp tweet. All the evidence we have points to the same thing.

 

This.  He was a 5th round pick..  It's not absurd to cut or trade him.   I think a lot of us were blinded by the overreaction of the draft community to us getting him where we did.  

 

 

[nucci]

13 minutes ago, Logic said:

Fair.

The only thing I'd point out is that, based on camp reports, Allen has actually handed the ball off to Knox a time or two from this "two TE backfield" formation. Maybe that's the counter if the defense does goes dime formation.

You don't want to be handing it off to your TE too often, of course, but maybe it's something they'd employ occasionally to keep defenses honest.

Good points but as a defense I wouldn't be scared of handing off to a TE on a running play out of the backfield

[MasterStrategist]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

2 out of 20

3 out of 27(counting playoffs)

Being noted for drops in camp.

 

You NOT being a numbers guy........perhaps don't have perspective on how few passes NFL receivers really drop.  

Ha, I'm more a numbers guy than you trust me on that (you can DM me if you're that interested).

 

Again, 20 targets...way too few to pass judgment.  Being noted for drops, by who? Did you see them? You believe everyone's twitter reporting?  Because just last night you said we shouldn't believe the Gabe Davis hype being reported by those same ppl.

 

If you have your mind made up on 21 targets and some random twitter reports, that's a you problem.

 

 

EDIT:  this is from just after the draft, but some Beane comments on Shakir and "1" sample video in there.  If we want to rip on his 1 drop, let's see his great catch too...that was clutch. 

 

Beane has spoken highly about Shakir, unprovoked, on several occasions.  Unless he has a horrible preseason, he's going to be a key player on offense.  Likely splitting time in the slot.

 

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/heavy.com/sports/buffalo-bills/bills-brandon-beane-khalil-shakir-bigger-role/amp/

Edited August 1, 2023 by MasterStrategist

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Hopefully that just means AJE has gotten better and not the other option.

Maybe being pushed by Shane Ray?

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

No, we didn't basically add one guy to our OL.  

 

Did the Chiefs not build an elite OL (in part) due to drafting two top tier IOL in Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith?

 

By all accounts, Torrence was the best pure Guard in the Draft.  He slid because teams (ours included) value position flex on the OL.  Given we have so much of that, we can take a swing on a guy who can only play Guard.  

 

McGovern is entering his prime years, and is an above average pass blocker / slightly below average run blocker up to this point.    In today's NFL, that's the DNA of a good Offensive Lineman with some further potential.  

 

Bates may start the season at RG, and if he does, ok.. fine.. he's solid.  However, we added two big pieces to the OL.  Two guys who can reasonably be expected to be upgrades to the OL.  

 

No guarantees, and maybe they flop, but two big additions were made.. not one.  

 

I would also argue that we really attacked the death, especially at guard with known veteran players like Edwards

[BananaB]

23 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Connor McGovern is not a DEpth player

He’s the one guy. No one knows where Torrence will be early September 

[wppete]

20 minutes ago, Lost said:

 

Tommy Doyle has 100% catch rate with the Bills

Is Tommy Doyle fully healthy? Haven’t heard anything about him this off-season. 

[balln]

36 minutes ago, BillsFanInRaleigh said:

apparently Dawkins was beat quite a bit yesterday as well

Go back and watch cincy playoff game. Dawkins was worse than saffold and Spencer all year. He looked f*cking awfuk. He’s gonna be out of here in 1-2 years 

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

This.  He was a 5th round pick..  It's not absurd to cut or trade him.   I think a lot of us were blinded by the overreaction of the draft community to us getting him where we did.  

 

 

I would be more upset, because he was actually getting targeted towards the end of the season and making the most of them
 

Can we please not act like this guy has not had any NFL time?

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, BananaB said:

We basically added one guy to our oline, other than that it’s just depth. Maybe Torrence will pan out but having a rookie next to Brown is very scary. All the depth players we sign don’t do anything to help the starting lineup, and that what we need. 

We added 2 guys to the IOL.  McGovern and Torrance can both be major upgrades.  They can also flop.  We don’t know what they are yet.  Let’s not pretend that we know.  
 

It’s just depth if they don’t pan out. If they do, we added 2 solid starters.  Wait and see before declaring them busts.  Because that’s what you’re doing when you say all we added was depth.  There’s a chance we added 2 solid starters. 
 

I would’ve loved to add a RT.  That was my #2 need this offseason behind an offensive playmaker.   They didn’t and we might pay the price for that.  I don’t trust Spencer Brown and I think his improvement or lack thereof may determine our fate this season.  

at this point all we can do is hope that Beane was right about Brown

[Don Otreply]

4 minutes ago, wppete said:

Is Tommy Doyle fully healthy? Haven’t heard anything about him this off-season. 

Knee injury last season, likely not ready to participate, 

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, Logic said:

This is training camp.

Some days the offense looks really good and we worry about the defense.

Other days the defense looks really good and we worry about the offense.

When things start to become a trend -- like if we start hearing that the offensive line struggles multiple days in a row or the corners can't cover anyone -- THEN it can become a concern.

 

Yeah and lets not forget both the offense and defense have essentially been amongst the best units in the NFL respectively the past 3 seasons too.  So they both should have their good days and bad days vs another top end unit.  

[wppete]

3 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Knee injury last season, likely not ready to participate, 

Back for the end of season playoff push? Hope so. 

[78thealltimegreat]

Shakur was a 5th round pick so I take his reports with a grain of salt. I think if Buffalo didn’t lead the league in drops and literally have the National Media now creating the narrative that Josh has no help outside 14 this wouldn’t be a big deal but this kinda stuff will now be magnified as it should. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I'm about done with Shakir at this point. You can't have below average physical gifts and below average hands and still be successful in this league. Allen has had too many incredible plays dropped by his pass catchers since he was a rookie. I'm so over it.

 

Way too much over reaction going on to some camp practices with unreliable reports where people don't have the luxury of NFL game coverage to see the angles of what really happened.  Like did the defender deflect the ball first, knock the ball away, etc.  

 

He still has to earn his role, but to write him off over some tweets by people who we have no idea if they can even see everything happening on each play is premature IMHO.  

[Bangarang]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He's projected to get significant tick id say a little concern is warranted

Significant tick? Where? He’s not an outside receiver and Kinkaid is going to be living in the slot. He’s a bottom of the depth chart guy so his snaps will likely reflect that.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Couldn’t get out there. So I missed my chance.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, MWK said:

Almost like we should have brought in some real competition for him.

 

 

 

Has anyone heard how Brandon Shell has been? 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Significant tick? Where? He’s not an outside receiver and Kinkaid is going to be living in the slot. He’s a bottom of the depth chart guy so his snaps will likely reflect that.

You really think he's going to be at the bottom of the depth chart, I don't

[NewEra]

5 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Shakur was a 5th round pick so I take his reports with a grain of salt. I think if Buffalo didn’t lead the league in drops and literally have the National Media now creating the narrative that Josh has no help outside 14 this wouldn’t be a big deal but this kinda stuff will now be magnified as it should. 

Kincaid and Cook will be enough as long as the OL holds up.  
 

I think Harty will make several big plays this season.  
 

I think Sherfields versatility and run blocking will get him some run.  
 

By all accounts Gabe Davis has looked better than ever so far this training camp.

 

 

 

 

 

If we stay healthy and Spencer Brown isn’t a detriment we have as good a shot as anyone imo
 

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

He dropped a big play late in the season... forgot who it was against.  

 

This was not an easy catch by any means and I have seen all of our WR's, including Diggs drop much easier ones.  Shakir gets way too much flack for this one drop everyone always brings up IMHO.

 

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

I'm just not sold on him.  Harty has elite speed and playmaking ability.  Sherfield is solid and an elite blocking WR.  Those two compliment Diggs and Davis, seemingly, very well.  

 

This is legit, I have been telling people all offseason that Sherfield and Harty and better than people think, although the injury concern with Harty is also significant.  But they will have roles on this team, and Kincaid is going to as well.  So even if Shakir is kind of the default slot guy like McKenzie was last year, he will still need to make plays to be involved with any consistency.  

 

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

 

Shakir, from what I remember, struggled heavily in blocking as a rookie and is kind of a tweener body type.  Talented player in space, but we have Diggs, Davis, Cook, Knox, Kincaid etc., to feed before we focus on getting the ball to Shakir on designed plays.  

 

Rookie contract may be his saving grace, but he seems to be struggling a bit more than I'd like to hear for a second year player in this system.  

 

Reports on him are conflicting...seems some think he has been solid others seem to think he has struggled.  I think the real evaluation will come with preseason because he will get a lot of opportunities to play given they are going to sit Diggs and Davis a lot of the preseason.  

 

I still think he is a promising player, I was high on him coming out of college, he was projected as high as the 2nd round, and multiple GM's did not like he slipped to us in the 5th round either.  But he had limited reps last year and involvement in the offense, so he still has to get comfortable and work his way in.  Its on him to earn his reps though, they won't be handed to him, there are a lot of mouths to feed on this offense now.  

[BADOLBILZ]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This was not an easy catch by any means and I have seen all of our WR's, including Diggs drop much easier ones.  Shakir gets way too much flack for this one drop everyone always brings up IMHO.

 

 

This is legit, I have been telling people all offseason that Sherfield and Harty and better than people think, although the injury concern with Harty is also significant.  But they will have roles on this team, and Kincaid is going to as well.  So even if Shakir is kind of the default slot guy like McKenzie was last year, he will still need to make plays to be involved with any consistency.  

 

 

Reports on him are conflicting...seems some think he has been solid others seem to think he has struggled.  I think the real evaluation will come with preseason because he will get a lot of opportunities to play given they are going to sit Diggs and Davis a lot of the preseason.  

 

I still think he is a promising player, I was high on him coming out of college, he was projected as high as the 2nd round, and multiple GM's did not like he slipped to us in the 5th round either.  But he had limited reps last year and involvement in the offense, so he still has to get comfortable and work his way in.  Its on him to earn his reps though, they won't be handed to him, there are a lot of mouths to feed on this offense now.  

 

 

The injury concern with Sharty is everything.  He's basically always been hurt.   Even the 1 year he had some measurable receiving yardage he missed games injured.   He's had like a dozen inury/re-injury situations with his hammies.   He was re-injuring them in the offseasons even.   Missing almost all of last season with turf toe was only the latest concern for a 5'6" guy who needs to be lightning quick/fast to be of any use in the NFL.    If he stays healthy he is a nice player to have.   It just seems unlikely.

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

38 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

He’s a 5th round pick in his 2nd training camp. Maybe people should manage their expectations better so they wouldn’t feel like they are relying on a player like that.

Well that's exactly what HappyDays and Badolbilz are doing for us, managing our expectations and helping us understand these guys are just not very good.

 

A LOT of people here have expressed a LOT of optimism about Kahlil Shakir this offseason.

[gonzo1105]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The injury concern with Sharty is everything.  He's basically always been hurt.   Even the 1 year he had some measurable receiving yardage he missed games injured.   He's had like a dozen inury/re-injury situations with his hammies.   He was re-injuring them in the offseasons even.   Missing almost all of last season with turf toe was only the latest concern for a 5'6" guy who needs to be lightning quick/fast to be of any use in the NFL.    If he stays healthy he is a nice player to have.   It just seems unlikely.

 

Haha you said Sharty 🤣

[78thealltimegreat]

14 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Kincaid and Cook will be enough as long as the OL holds up.  
 

I think Harty will make several big plays this season.  
 

I think Sherfields versatility and run blocking will get him some run.  
 

By all accounts Gabe Davis has looked better than ever so far this training camp.

 

 

 

 

 

If we stay healthy and Spencer Brown isn’t a detriment we have as good a shot as anyone imo
 

 

Oh I think they are as good as anyone but the receiver question is going to linger on till they finally win one