Would you resign Edmunds or a tackle?

[78thealltimegreat]

11 minutes ago, BadboyBills said:

I hated Joe's argument, I found it was very disingenuous in that he didnt even factor in possible contract restructures that would create more cap space and fill the need of wr or guard or all 3. Having said that if we dont sign Tremaine and I hear people complain about our MLB sucking, I'm putting you on full blast.

The only replacement would be Simpson from Clemson and Im not sure he is there at 27.

They allowed 6 yards a carry to Joe Mixon and Perrine with him on the field much less what Miami did to the Bills with Raheem Mostart so our two defensive geniuses with a combined 40 years coaching defense will just have to make do with the Bills wanting to protect the guy who is the entire franchise. 

[nosejob]

50 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

It’s not even about money at this stage for me. I just flat out don’t even want him back. I want a new downhill physical LB that plays fast with instincts and tackling ability. Edmunds always looks like he’s thinking first, then moving. I want a guy that just plays fast football and just transforms our Defense into a physically imposing unit. Draft a guy in round 1 or 2 and just let Edmunds go learn somewhere else.

I thought they should have turned him into a couple of good picks last year and drafted Christian Harris. Not sure if they actually could have after picking up 5th yr. option, but unloading him on say Detroit could have got us a high 2nd and 4th.

[newcam2012]

It's time to go all in on the offense. Build that oline and get some dynamic WRs. 

 

Let the defense fall where it falls. Spend little to no money on it. Fraizer's system is a proven loser in the playoffs. Hope the current players stay healthy and step up. Let coach McD work his defensive brain. 

 

In essence, give Allen  weapons and protection. Let the offense roll. Win games in shootouts. No more relying on the defense to win games. 

[T master]

I think this is a no brainer Edmunds ! The Bills have their 2 starting tackles in Dion & Brown and i think if Brown wouldn't have had the back thing going on in OTA's & the pre season to put in all the reps he would have had a better season than he did .

 

Edmunds looks to be coming into his own & is still a very young man plus he knows this D probably as good as Frazier does plus the chemistry he & Millano have built up playing together it's kind of like Hyde & Poyer .

 

Plus the fact that they have Tommy Doyle coming back next season and if Edmunds goes then what & i'm not really sure the Bills will have the kind of capital that you think they will next year to afford a signing like that i feel Beane will let him test the market .

 

After Roquan Smith reset the market this last season i think Edmunds will be looking for something close to that . Edmunds said in his last interview that i saw he loves it here & loves playing for this team & the organization but it's all about the money any more there isn't many players anymore that are that committed to one team to give a home town discount they are after the big bucks .

 

That and the fact that there is any number of teams out there that have a lot more money than the Bills & would love to have someone like Edmunds on their team so i just think he's gone any way but i would choose Edmunds despite what some here think .

[John from Riverside]

We can walk and chew gum at the same time here

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Interesting discussion from Joe on WGR this morning where according to analysts a 4 year deal is about 44 million for Tremaine which the Bills can definitely afford…

Or would you be ok with going after someone like a Mike McGlinchey in San Francisco who is roughly the same contract over 4 years and with other decisions in San Fran likely to hit the open market he would definitely solidify RT…but LB being a priority in the draft.

I like Tremaine but man I’d sleep a little easier not playing a rookie or Brown on Josh’s other side. 

McGlinchey not lived up to his draft position I'd be reserved signing him or Edmunds for that matter, Instead I get a starting caliber OG, add depth at TE and WR and take a best available guy in Round 1. 

[Nextmanup]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Interesting discussion from Joe on WGR this morning where according to analysts a 4 year deal is about 44 million for Tremaine which the Bills can definitely afford…

Or would you be ok with going after someone like a Mike McGlinchey in San Francisco who is roughly the same contract over 4 years and with other decisions in San Fran likely to hit the open market he would definitely solidify RT…but LB being a priority in the draft.

I like Tremaine but man I’d sleep a little easier not playing a rookie or Brown on Josh’s other side. 

I have heard a bunch of talking head "experts" discuss Tremaine and they are saying he is likely to get more like $15 million + per season.

 

I hope we just let the guy go.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

23 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

It's time to go all in on the offense. Build that oline and get some dynamic WRs. 

 

Let the defense fall where it falls. Spend little to no money on it. Fraizer's system is a proven loser in the playoffs. Hope the current players stay healthy and step up. Let coach McD work his defensive brain. 

 

In essence, give Allen  weapons and protection. Let the offense roll. Win games in shootouts. No more relying on the defense to win games. 

I agree. I almost don't give a rats ass what the defense does next year. It should be 100% about flooding the offense with weapons and protection around your super asset. Stop dicking around wasting 65-70% of your cap space on under performing defense players. Milano and a healthy Von are the only ones worth their salt.  All Offense in 2023.

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Interesting discussion from Joe on WGR this morning where according to analysts a 4 year deal is about 44 million for Tremaine which the Bills can definitely afford…

Or would you be ok with going after someone like a Mike McGlinchey in San Francisco who is roughly the same contract over 4 years and with other decisions in San Fran likely to hit the open market he would definitely solidify RT…but LB being a priority in the draft.

I like Tremaine but man I’d sleep a little easier not playing a rookie or Brown on Josh’s other side. 

 

Earlier this season I would have said sign Edmunds.  He absolutely had his best year and would be worth that investment.  

 

HOWEVER...What is the point given Frazier's defensive showings the last 3 exits?

 

With both Poyer and Edmunds...our defense under Frazier has given up 107 points and 1403 yards (36 PPG, 470 yards PPG) in our last 3 playoff exits...not to mention, all the money and draft picks also invested over those 3 years in the defense.  It has NOT helped, and our D has been embarrassingly bad in back to back KC losses and now this Cincy loss.   If having these guys doesn't help come playoff time, then the money vested there is a waste.  Josh needs help, he is taking way too many hits in the pocket or under duress and is trying to score on every throw because of it.  

 

So now, I am all in on investing in Allen and the offense this year.  

 

DISCLAIMER:  If we do move on from Frazier (I doubt it though), then I might lean back to signing Edmunds and give the new DC the right tools to tweak this defense to be better.

[Brand J]

I have a very simplistic view of this. My question is “what has the player done or what plays did he make in all the Bills playoff losses?” If we lost the game but the player made ripples, you re-sign him. If we lost the game and you hardly heard anything about the player, you move on. I vote to allocate Tremaine’s salary to upgrading the OL.

[LABILLBACKER]

5 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I have heard a bunch of talking head "experts" discuss Tremaine and they are saying he is likely to get more like $15 million + per season.

 

I hope we just let the guy go.

 

 

It's highly doubtful Tremaine stays for 11M/yr.  He's going to want a minimum of 15 and probably even more. He's gone folks. Draft  a kid or sign a cheap short term vet to replace 49.

[newcam2012]

10 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I agree. I almost don't give a rats ass what the defense does next year. It should be 100% about flooding the offense with weapons and protection around your super asset. Stop dicking around wasting 65-70% of your cap space on under performing defense players. Milano and a healthy Von are the only ones worth their salt.  All Offense in 2023.

Thanks for confirming my thought process is somewhat realistic. 

[dhgold]

The Bills need to apply their limited cap resources towards the offensive line. 

[RyanC883]

tackle, draft a LB.  Edmunds does not make many impactful plays, he's good, not elite.  An OT could make the offense consistently elite and allow for the chance to establish a complementary running game and give Allen time to make deep throws, let WRs get open underneath, etc.  

[BigBuff423]

If it's the same money and there's a good OT available, I'm spending my money there....drafting LB to replace Edmunds and seeing what productivity is there in Bernard. 

[frostbitmic]

I'd re-sign him.

 

Then I'd wait a couple weeks after free agency starts and sign a couple of players on "show me" contracts.

 

Then go heavy on offense in the draft with at least 1 C/G and 1 OT, at least 1 WR early, at least 1 Safety.

Offensive line, WR and Safety are the teams biggest needs. Add LB to that list if you let Edmunds go.

[Billsman623]

Let Edmunds walk. The Bills need to start making tough decisions with the cap. Unless he is willing to come back a very team friendly deal with most of the cap hits back loaded they should walk away. Draft a replacement and use the little resources the Bills will have to bolster the offense. If McD and Frazier are the defensive geniuses, they are touted as than they can figure it out.

[nosejob]

1 hour ago, Aurelius said:

 

Get rid of the Frazier defense, keep Edmunds and move him to OLB where he belongs.  He’d be an excellent pass rusher and has great length and speed.  I’m not sure he’s been utilized to get the most out of him in this system.  
 

Trade some of our other higher value underperforming guys for draft picks.  It’s odd to be in a mini rebuild right now, but it seems to be the case.  Gonna need center/other o-line, safety, LB, maybe even another edge, WR amongst others.  
 

I like Edmunds. I think he’s young and would do better with a different DC who actually runs stunts and doesn’t expect their MLB’s to be the cushion until the defensive backfield picks up in the zone.  
 

I like Oliver but his production can be replicated for cheaper.   We grabbed Settle and DaQuan Jones this past offseason and we can grab others this year.  

Edmunds gets taken out of Blitzes by Backs and can only rush through openings and doesn't have the instincts for that.

Draft Jack Campbell from Iowa.

Edited January 31, 2023 by nosejob

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Protect Josh Allen over everything else.

[Goin Breakdown]

Oline all day. Informative opinion, I know. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

This is such a good discussion. 

 

This Bills team is stalled at the 3rd best team in the Conference now with back to back Divisional losses. 

 

I graded the Bills drafts since 2017 on the basis of simply did the pick work out on an A, B, C, D, F scale, with no weight on Round or Position.

 

This is just one way to look at how the roster has evolved the way it has and here are the results:

 

Offensive A - 3 (Dawkins, Allen, Diggs)
Offensive B - 2 (Knox, Davis)
Offensive C - 4 (Singletary, Brown, Cook, Shakir)
Offensive D - 1 (McCloud)
Offensive F - 13 (Zay Jones, Peterman, Teller, Proehl, Ford, Sweeney, Moss, Fromm, Hodgins, Doyle, Stevenson, Anderson, Tenuta)

 

Gaps: OL, WR
Total: 23
A's/B's: 22%

 

 

Defensive A - 3 (White, Milano, Edmunds)
Defensive B - 2 (Johnson, Jackson)
Defensive C - 7 (Phillips, Neal, Oliver, Rousseau, Hamlin, Elam, Benford)
Defensive D - 3 (Johnson, Epenesa, Basham)
Defensive F - 6 (Vallejo, Joseph, Johnson, Wildgoose, Bernard, Spector)

 

Gaps: DT, DE
Total: 21
A's/B's: 24%

 

The Bills average draft is balanced. Almost always the same number of players on Offense and Defense.

 

I think it's clear where this team has fallen short. We have no organically developed good offensive lineman except Dawkins. The Bills haven't drafted one great WR outside of the Diggs trade. 

 

On defense, despite the massive investment, not one good DT selected, and not one good (not even great) DE. 

 

 

 

Preliminarly, I agree with others, the focus need to be on Allen. He needs a better Offensive Line, and there has to be another great WR added to this team somehow. 

 

I look through the Bills Free Agents, and outside of Edmunds, I don't see where the Bills should go out of their way to extend any but 2 of these 4: Edmunds, Phillips, Jackson, Lawson. 

 

I'd pick Edmunds and Phillips (he'll be cheap) and he's the only DT with size on the team. 

 

With this coaching staff, I have no faith that Hines will see the field unless Singletary is forcibly removed from the equation. 

 

 

 

Conclusions:

 

Doing this means a significant overhaul on the offensive line: Quesenberry, Van Roten, Boettger, Safford, Hart. 

 

The defense looks like it is set to take a rather large step backwards, and that is okay, lean into Allen and the offense. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Round 1, Pick 27

Round 2, Pick 59

Round 3, Pick 91

Round 4, Pick 128

Round 5, Pick 135 (from Arizona)

Round 5, Pick 160

 

 

I think you could see something like:

 

1. Best available WR

2. Guard

3. Guard

4. Center/Tackle

5. Linebacker

6. Cornerback

 

In FA, get veteran minimum Safety. 

 

It's up to the Bills coaches to get anything out of Rousseau, Basham and Epensa, but I do not want to see more investment there. 

 

As Beane said, Von was the big-ticket. 

 

 

[BillyBilliams]

Edmunds needs to be signed.  Poyer can go.  There is a reason why other teams are BEGGING for Edmunds to go to FA.  He's a monster.

[colin]

the d needs pass rush, the rest can be filled in schematically (assuming we run the same one).  

 

we need WRs and OL.  not sure i'd pay for a RT, would rather pay up for solid interior guys (more than one) or a LT which would let us move dawkins to RG, bates to C and ditch morse, and then we some options on the right side, including the draft.  

 

i'd go ham and extend guys to sign another solid wr.  letting edmunds walk is part of that.

 

daquan jones (who didn't break the bank) being out kills our run d, miller being out killed our pass rush.  that tells me we need to pay guys like that, and not the back 7 guys we love over paying even tho our scheme protects the heck out of them.

[hondo in seattle]

I like Edmunds better than most but, man, we need OL help.

 

A better OL means a better running attack, which means a less predictable offense, which means a better passing attack too.

 

And a better OL means a healthier Allen.  They guys is getting beat up and we're asking him to do too much.  He needs capable bodyguards.

[BarleyNY]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

My only question to all of the "let Edmunds walk" people is this:

Middle linebacker is a pretty important position in the McDermott/Frazier defense. If they let Edmunds walk and, let's say, spend the money instead on the offensive line or a wide receiver...are you cool with them turning around and spending a 1st round pick on a linebacker? Because it sure seems like an important enough position to this coaching staff that they'd need to devote meaningful resources to finding a replacement.

While I can understand wanting to let Edmunds walk and to spend money elsewhere, it still leaves behind the question of: Who replaces Edmunds, and are you okay with the answer being "a premium draft pick"?

F no. It seems like every freaking position - including 4 backup defensive lineman - is of utmost importance in McDermott’s/Frazier’s defense. Yet that defense still falters every year in the playoffs. How about they spend some money and picks on the offense and make do with a modestly priced FA at MLB and see how that goes? Maybe even coach a guy up. It’s time to flip our resource allocation and help Allen and the offense out. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by BarleyNY

[nosejob]

The biggest problem is the coaching! Dorsey didn't pressure Josh to take the check downs and move the chains or concentrate on using his Oline to pull and run outside to help the run game.

 

On Defense, Frazier is stuck in his geriatric ways and can't stop a clock. He has no ability to come up with anything new or scheme specific game plans according to opponents.

 

I get it, we had Jags on the Oline, but I don't think Beane's contract planning was to bankrupt us. I think there are D.C.s in this league that could have done way more with what we have than what we got out of ours. That Cincy game was pathetic. The defense didn't win games, Josh did.

 

Blaming players( unless your name is Saffold), is the biggest load of crap when we've all seen the rush fo, soft zone B.S. right in front of us to view over and over.

Until the D.C. changes it ain't gonna matter who we draft because the idea of simply outscoring opponents is asinine.

 

McD is turning out to be a Mon. thru Sat. coach who doesn't seem to be able to put his foot up anybody's ass.

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by nosejob

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, nosejob said:

The biggest problem is the coaching! Dorsey didn't pressure Josh to take the check downs and move the chains or concentrate on using his Oline to pull and run outside to help the run game.

 

On Defense, Frazier is stuck in his geriatric ways and can't stop a clock. He has no ability to come up with anything new or scheme specific game plans according to opponents.

 

I get it, we had Jags on the Oline, but I don't think Beane's contract planning was to bankrupt us. I think there are D.C.s in this league that could have done way more with what we have than what we got out of ours. That Cincy game was pathetic. The defense didn't win games, Josh did.

 

Blaming players( unless your name is Saffold), is the biggest load of crap when we've all seen the rush fo, soft zone B.S. right in front of us to view over and over.

Until the D.C. changes it ain't gonna matter who we draft because the idea of simply outscoring opponents is asinine.

 

McD is turning out to be  Mon. thru Sat. coach who doesn't seem to be able to put his foot up anybody's ass.

 

 

Beane is a big part of this though. 

 

There has been a ton of investment - Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa with nothing to show for it. 

 

[nosejob]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Beane is a big part of this though. 

 

There has been a ton of investment - Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa with nothing to show for it. 

 

Then run some stunts and or put any one of them inside!. For Pete's sake blitz a little more! How about some press man instead of playing the receivers beyond first down markers? I'm not the smartest, but rushing four against 5 lineman, a TE and a back is  probably not gonna work week in and week out....let alone allow any of the guys you mentioned a chance to get home. The definition of insanity.

Edited January 31, 2023 by nosejob

[Jerome007]

2 hours ago, BigBuff423 said:

If it's the same money and there's a good OT available, I'm spending my money there....drafting LB to replace Edmund

Of coure for the same money, a top OL, be it a guard or tackle, is better.

 

But it seems year after year, most of this board value draft picks so much. Do you realize very few draftees make it a starters, let alone as backups?

 

A 3rd+ round LB pick is a crap shoot. For one Milano there must be 2-3-4 that are not even in  the league a short time later. So yeah, you draft one, but it's no guarantee.

 

Beane has not drafted well but I like his approach of signing backups stuck behind elite starters. At least they have proven they belong in the league. But yeah, time for an OLine signing on the level of the Diggs one! 

[Riverboat Ritchie]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Edmunds is likely gone...someone is going to pay WELL above $11 million a year for him and the franchise tag is $20.9 million, so that isn't a realistic option either. Only hope is if he pulls a Milano and takes less to stay...he openly said how much he loves it here, how he loves the team, the coaches and the locker room...I guess we will see just how much. Perhaps a 6 or 7 year deal that gives him more in guarantees but helps save some money? Trade longer term and more guarantees for less overall money?

Given how young he is, a longer deal where you can spread out hit makes sense. 

[transient]

Are we able to resign Saffold... fresh off his Pro Bowl appearance to recognize his worst in the league status... and then try to re-sign Edmunds and OL help?

[Matt_In_NH]

The 11M came from Spotrac which has a market value on some guys.   I watched that last year for a bunch of guys and they are way under what guys actually sign for in free agency.  If they can get him for that, you have to try and make it work, but I bet he gets way above that.

[BringBackFlutie]

I'd definitely resign the RT. He sucks.

[DrDawkinstein]

Here's what we are looking at for the Edmunds deal:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/roquan-smith-25103/

 

 

Not too bad if we could actually get something like this done. Get that hit down from $12M this year to $9M next year, have an out after 3 years.

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I can sign Taylor (RT) and Pocic (C) and still have money left over. This idea of keeping Tremaine is ridiculous. It's not happening. If this organization dumps 20M into Tremaine instead of helping Josh, that will divide the locker room.

 

 

Dude, the odds are good that they're re-signing Tremaine.

 

And that it will be for considerably less than $20M. 

 

It may be possible for him to get $20M, and if he does insist on that, he's likely gone. But he likes it here.

 

Those are likely. What is a sure thing is that if it did happen, it would absolutely not divide the locker room. And that it's not an either/or between Tremaine and the OL in the first place.

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Dopey]

9 hours ago, MarkyMannn said:

We got one last year, how did that work out.  There is no reason to believe another LB drafted won't end up the same way.  I'm assuming picks 1 and 2 are OL & WR.

It worked out the way we thought. He sat the bench as depth and someone we can coach up. You really think he was drafted to start as a rookie? Over Edmunds or Milano?
🤔

[Dopey]

8 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You need an entire coaching staff change to get what you laid out here. Which Im not necessarily against, but it takes way more than just signing a thumper., and that is a whole different thread.

 

Our scheme does not ask the MLB to play like that, nor is it designed that way. Edmunds is incredibly good at what the team/scheme rely on him to do.

 

 

Thank you. Edmunds does exactly what the coaches want from him. Some people actually sound pissed at Edmunds. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again to those people, you’re mad at the coaches not Edmunds. But then who would be their whipping boy? 
To answer the op question, Edmunds. 

[nikuman]

O-Line. Period. We can't consistently run the ball and that's not all on the RBs. Give Josh 1 extra second in the pocket before feeling pressure and we're putting up 40 points a game. I'll take a 45-32 victory every day of the week. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by nikuman

[Nitro]

Edmunds loss would open a huge hole on defense.  A FA RT is not a need.  Brown is growing and learning.  He had growing pains but I think he will be a solid RT.