Sean McDermott vs Sean Payton

[BuffBills51]

As we all know Payton is a hot coaching candidate right now. I have even seen we should replace McDermott with him. I agree with many posters that McDermott needs to improve on some things to lead us to the next level we all want to see the team at, mainly replacing Dorsey with a play caller that has more play calling creativity. However, when you look at McDermott compared to Payton they are very comparable. We are all frustrated with how the season ended but McDermott is the top coach we have had since Levy and is a top level coach in this league.

 

 

                         Seasons            Wins               Losses                Win Pct          Yrs Playoffs        Playoff Pct               Playoff Wins          Playoff Loss         Playoff Win Pct

McDermott       6                        62                   35                       .639                  5                           .8333                       4                                5                          .444

Payton             15                       152                  89                       .631                   9                           .60                           9                                8                          .529

[RiotAct]

I heard we’d have to send the Saints a 1st to get him?  If so… no way Jose.

[No_Matter_What]

Grass is always greener on the other side for some...

[SoCal Deek]

The Bills are in a rare position. All that matters now is playoff performance. It’s sort of like the better NBA Teams. Our current Coaching Staff has crapped the bed now year after year. 

[Success]

I don't think they'll move on from McD, and I think McD is a solid & even above-average coach.

 

But I think Payton would give us a better shot at a Super Bowl. And if that's all that matters...

 

[LeviF]

Payton turned Brees into a HOFer. 

 

Sean McDermott is turning Josh Allen into Dan Marino 2.0.

 

Be honest, do you think Brees and Josh Allen are the same, talent-wise?

[Bruffalo]

I'm not happy with McD right now either but I don't realistically think you could get anyone to replace him that would be an upgrade. He's a top 10 coach in the NFL, arguably a top 5.  

 

The best course of action is to replace the defensive coordinator with somebody young and aggressive, which would balance nicely with McD's conservative nature. 

 

I don't know what you do with OC. Frankly, I'm not excited to see Dorsey again but I can understand that it's probably a long shot that he gets fired.  I'd love to see Reich in at OC, proven successful OC in big time situations. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

4 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I heard we’d have to send the Saints a 1st to get him?  If so… no way Jose.

 

Reports are a mid 1st++ so that's an absolute no-go for me. 

 

I think Payton is grossly overrated anyway. The Saints underperformed given their talent level while he was HC 

[GunnerBill]

I think Payton is an excellent coach, a great offensive playcaller - second only to Andy Reid IMO. But you can argue McDermott's playoff losses have all come to teams who are in the same bracket as the Bills:

 

2017 - Jags (everyone believed Jags and Bills were pretenders even though the Jags ended up in the AFCCG)

2019 - Houston (both Houston and Buffalo were solid playoff teams but not on the level of the Chiefs)

2020 - Chiefs (Kansas City were better than us)

2021 - Chiefs (Kansas City and Buffalo were the consensus top 2 in the AFC)

2022 - Bengals (on the same top end AFC tier as the Bills)

 

Payton lost an NFCCG to Rex Grossman. He lost a wildcard game as reigning champs to a 7-9 division winner. He lost a playoff game to Case Keenum. He lost a home playoff game to Kirk Cousins. ALL with Drew Brees a sure fire HOFer at QB. Yes, he won one. But his overall playoff record is very mixed.

 

I think if he was a free agent I'd put feelers out. But give up a 1st round pick for him? No way. 

[BuffaloBills1998]

16 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I heard we’d have to send the Saints a 1st to get him?  If so… no way Jose.

More than a first

How long did Payton go 7-9 with Brees?

[Billz4ever]

The only thing that realistically happens this year is we have a change in coordinators, and even then it may only be DC if we're lucky.

 

Dorsey did a decent job in his first year but seemed to be lacking in situational football play calling all season.  When it's 3rd and 2, you shouldn't be calling 40-yard throws.  I would love to see Reich return home. I think he has a good track record as OC and would be able to reel Josh back in if he gets into hero ball mode.  I think Dorsey's playcalling tends to feed Josh's bad habits at times. 

 

I think it's a no-brainer we need something different on the defensive side.  Frazier is waaaay too predictable and the bend but not break has been breaking.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

41 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

The only thing that realistically happens this year is we have a change in coordinators, and even then it may only be DC if we're lucky.

 

Dorsey did a decent job in his first year but seemed to be lacking in situational football play calling all season.  When it's 3rd and 2, you shouldn't be calling 40-yard throws.  I would love to see Reich return home. I think he has a good track record as OC and would be able to reel Josh back in if he gets into hero ball mode.  I think Dorsey's playcalling tends to feed Josh's bad habits at times. 

 

I think it's a no-brainer we need something different on the defensive side.  Frazier is waaaay too predictable and the bend but not break has been breaking.  

While I agree there is almost zero chance McD is gone, why do you think changing Frazier will change the defense? It's McDermott's defense. 

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

While I agree there is almost zero chance McD is gone, why do you think changing Frazier will change the defense? It's McDermott's defense. 

Frazier is still calling the D.  It's far too predictable and far too conservative. 

[Mango]

58 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

Reports are a mid 1st++ so that's an absolute no-go for me. 

 

I think Payton is grossly overrated anyway. The Saints underperformed given their talent level while he was HC 

I agree with this. 
 

My take has always been that Brees is an all time great QB or Payton is a HoF coach. Both cannot be true at the same time. 
 

Firing McD for Payton is putting all your chips on Brees being a system QB. That gives me pause.

3 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

Frazier is still calling the D.  It's far too predictable and far too conservative. 

I believe this is McD’s defense so I am tempted to side with people who say “it won’t change until McDermott is gone”.

 

But we’ve seen McDermott pull play calling away from Frazier in the past and the defense has gotten drastically better. 
 

Brandon Beane shouldn’t go without major blame. Arguably as much or more as anybody on the coaching staff. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Sean Payton only won 1 w/ all the talent he had. Not so sure he doesn't just turn into the second coming of the post-Giants Bill Parcells.

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Donuts and Doritos

[Chaos]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think Payton is an excellent coach, a great offensive playcaller - second only to Andy Reid IMO. But you can argue McDermott's playoff losses have all come to teams who are in the same bracket as the Bills:

 

2017 - Jags (everyone believed Jags and Bills were pretenders even though the Jags ended up in the AFCCG)

2019 - Houston (both Houston and Buffalo were solid playoff teams but not on the level of the Chiefs)

2020 - Chiefs (Kansas City were better than us)

2021 - Chiefs (Kansas City and Buffalo were the consensus top 2 in the AFC)

2022 - Bengals (on the same top end AFC tier as the Bills)

 

Payton lost an NFCCG to Rex Grossman. He lost a wildcard game as reigning champs to a 7-9 division winner. He lost a playoff game to Case Keenum. He lost a home playoff game to Kirk Cousins. ALL with Drew Brees a sure fire HOFer at QB. Yes, he won one. But his overall playoff record is very mixed.

 

I think if he was a free agent I'd put feelers out. But give up a 1st round pick for him? No way. 

Lets stipulate the Bills "were in the same bracket".  HOw do you explain choking or getting stomped in every single end of season game?

[US Egg]

McD beats Payton every time in arm wrestling.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 hours ago, LeviF said:

Payton turned Brees into a HOFer. 

 

Sean McDermott is turning Josh Allen into Dan Marino 2.0.

 

Be honest, do you think Brees and Josh Allen are the same, talent-wise?

Dan Marino not a HOFer?

 

Are you saying McDermott is Don Shula? Are these criticisms?

[LeviF]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Dan Marino not a HOFer?

 

Are you saying McDermott is Don Shula? Are these criticisms?

 

Dan Marino was destined to be a HOFer the minute he stepped on to the field. Unbelievable talent throwing the football.

 

But he has zero rings to show for it. Which, barring some significant strides in coaching and roster building, is Josh Allen's current trajectory under Sean McDermott.

[SWATeam]

5 hours ago, LeviF said:

Payton turned Brees into a HOFer. 

 

Sean McDermott is turning Josh Allen into Dan Marino 2.0.

 

Be honest, do you think Brees and Josh Allen are the same, talent-wise?

QB "talent" for me is always hard to quantify.  How would you compare Josh vs. Brady talent wise?

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, LeviF said:

Payton turned Brees into a HOFer. 

 

Sean McDermott is turning Josh Allen into Dan Marino 2.0.

 

Be honest, do you think Brees and Josh Allen are the same, talent-wise?

Dan Marino is a Hall of Famer and considered the best passer of all time lol

 

You’re acting like he was Brian Brohm lol

[LeviF]

49 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Dan Marino is a Hall of Famer and considered the best passer of all time lol

 

You’re acting like he was Brian Brohm lol

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, LeviF said:

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

The 90s bills teams were loaded and have none 

 

sometimes it takes as much luck as talent unfortunately 

[Nextmanup]

6 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Grass is always greener on the other side for some...

If/when we bow out of the playoffs another year or 2 leading to coaching changes, all the "you guys are nuts!" people will be the FIRST to say, "This was justified; good decision by the franchise; need a new voice in the locker room."

 

LOL

 

It's just that some of us are a bit ahead of the slower fans.

 

 

[LeviF]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

The 90s bills teams were loaded and have none 

 

sometimes it takes as much luck as talent unfortunately 

Yeah, maybe. But I have a forbidden take on Jim Kelly and Marino and a hypothetical where the Bills are a proper dynasty in the late 80s/early 90s. 
 

Of course the NFC was a buzzsaw back then. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

38 minutes ago, LeviF said:

this point is not hard to get. 
 

how many rings does Marino have despite the talent that I already said he had?

 

That is my point. Marino and josh so far = generational talents wasting away on inferior teams 

 

Yes it is hard to get as makes little sense.  First comparing QB's has little to do with how good the coach is or isn't. I guess Brian Billick must be the greatest coach of all time as he turned Trent Dillfer into SB winning QB.

 

So are you saying Miami didn't win any because Marino was no good or Shula was no good.  How exactly did Marino become this loser?   Was it his fault or coaching?  Either one of them, you're wrong on as both were excellent.  There was probably more questions on how good Allen would be coming out of college than Brees.  Allen was doing pretty well under Daboll, so maybe Dorsey is turning him into mush, but not McD.  OK so you can blame McD for hiring Dorsey but he was the consensus  favorite for the job.  He had very little if anything to do with Allen's development good or bad as he's a defensive coach.

 

If you want to compare coaches, compare their record which are pretty much the same.  You want a different coach and think McD isn't very good. OK can't argue with that, but don't try and show that Peyton is any better. 

 

What you could have said and would be true so far:  McDermott is Peyton 2.0  That would be a fair assessment.

[LeviF]

2 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Yes it is hard to get as makes little sense.  First comparing QB's has little to do with how good the coach is or isn't. I guess Brian Billick must be the greatest coach of all time as he turned Trent Dillfer into SB winning QB.

 

So are you saying Miami didn't win any because Marino was no good or Shula was no good.  How exactly did Marino become this loser?   Was it his fault or coaching?  Either one of them, you're wrong on as both were excellent.  There was probably more questions on how good Allen would be coming out of college than Brees.  Allen was doing pretty well under Daboll, so maybe Dorsey is turning him into mush, but not McD.  OK so you can blame McD for hiring Dorsey but he was the consensus  favorite for the job.  He had very little if anything to do with Allen's development good or bad as he's a defensive coach.

 

If you want to compare coaches, compare their record which are pretty much the same.  You want a different coach and think McD isn't very good. OK can't argue with that, but don't try and show that Peyton is any better. 

 

What you could have said and would be true so far:  McDermott is Peyton 2.0  That would be a fair assessment.

Maybe it’s the coaching. Maybe it’s not. But my point, as quoted by you above, is that Josh Allen is a generational talent wasted on an inferior team, much like Marino was. We can quibble whether Shula outlasted his usefulness in the league but it’s undeniable that Marino’s career did not pay off for the dolphins the way everyone expected it to, especially after the 1984 season. 
 

Miami had an inferior roster compared to other good teams of the 80s and 90s. So do the Bills now. I can lay two big playoff losses squarely at the feet of McDermott. These are not in dispute. 
 

If McD has nothing to do with Josh’s development, maybe it’s time the Bills actually hired someone who can take a little responsibility for the offense. 

[Victory Formation]

How many Super Bowls did he win with Brees? 

[JerseyBills]

McD is untouchable 

Just stop it. 

We need better coordinators 

Frazier gave up 40+ last year..

If it was competitive,would have gave up 30+ this year

 

Bring on some elite coordinators and call it a day

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

26 minutes ago, LeviF said:

Maybe it’s the coaching. Maybe it’s not. But my point, as quoted by you above, is that Josh Allen is a generational talent wasted on an inferior team, much like Marino was. We can quibble whether Shula outlasted his usefulness in the league but it’s undeniable that Marino’s career did not pay off for the dolphins the way everyone expected it to, especially after the 1984 season. 
 

Miami had an inferior roster compared to other good teams of the 80s and 90s. So do the Bills now. I can lay two big playoff losses squarely at the feet of McDermott. These are not in dispute. 
 

If McD has nothing to do with Josh’s development, maybe it’s time the Bills actually hired someone who can take a little responsibility for the offense. 

 

OK don't disagree with any of what you're saying, bu this thread was started to say Peyton isn't all that great of a choice which I agree with.  You want to make changes, find someone better than Peyton is my argument.

 

There's also a lot of these hot offensive minds who they made head coaches who are now on the unemployment line too, great as a coordinator, but failed as a HC.  A better option may be to keep McD as head coach, but get one of these offensive wizes to be the OC.

 

I also think your argument about Marino stems quite a bit on luck more than an inferior team, being at the right place at the right time avoiding injuries, getting the right match up in playoffs and all of a sudden you won the SB.  Meanwhile a deserving team never gets a crack at it.  Did Marino have an inferior team or just at the wrong place at the wrong time?  Excluding the one year the Bills went to the SB as the wild card, I think they won the division 6 out of 7 years straight so Marino was in a dog fight every year right in the prime of his career.  Was it really an inferior team or were they both great teams but just that the Bills were a little better?

 

Add to that when you have a generational talent who is paid top $$ in today's NFL it's hard to get a strong enough team around him. Manning, Rodgers, Brees all of them only won one SB (Elway twice) as is hard to build that team around them.  The team will win every year and potentially be in the running to win it all, but only one time they were at the right place at the right time and won it all.  How did Brady manage to win them all, who knows, maybe it was all on cheating??  Bengals also were helped a lot by being really terrible for a long time and having a number of top 10 draft picks, where the Bills were never quite that bad in the past 40 years.

[BLeonard]

Personally, I don't see what is so great about Payton.  Yes, he's won A (single) Super Bowl, but he's also lost in 2 NFC Championship games, lost in the Divisional round 4 times and lost in the Wild Card round twice.  On top of that, he's had 5 seasons finishing at .500 or below.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that no head coach in NFL history has won a Super Bowl with two different teams.  Could Payton be the first?  Sure.  But, I certainly wouldn't be giving up first round draft picks for the guy.

 

I can only speak for me, but I'm not ready to give up on McDermott yet.  That said, something has to change on defense.  The "bend but don't break" simply doesn't get it done in the postseason.  From what I understand, Frazier's contract expires, so you don't even have to "fire" him, just don't renew and get someone in here that attacks on defense.  If McDermott is unable or unwilling to make adjustments, then he may be the next one that needs to be shown the door.

[Victory Formation]

46 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

McD is untouchable 

Just stop it. 

We need better coordinators 

Frazier gave up 40+ last year..

If it was competitive,would have gave up 30+ this year

 

Bring on some elite coordinators and call it a day

I find it aggravating that Frazier gets all the heat but we quickly forget that defense is McD’s forte. The buck should stop with him. I understand it if McD doesn’t quite understand our offensive woes but defense? C’mon, that’s weak.

 

Btw, Payton is a terrible choice. If you want a coach from an offensive background you want either Brian Callahan or Frank Reich. Payton only won one ring with HOF QB Drew Brees and he had him for two decades.

[Chicken Boo]

Payton has a Super Bowl victory, no?

 

What are we talking about?  

 

A lot of Payton's shortcomings record-wise were Drew Brees and his turnovers, that everyone likes to gloss over.  

 

*On a side note, it would be nice to see Cook utilized in a Kamara role, like his talent warrants.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, Chaos said:

Lets stipulate the Bills "were in the same bracket".  HOw do you explain choking or getting stomped in every single end of season game?

 

Aren't they the only two ways to lose? They lose a close one you can call it choking they lose big you can call it a stomping? 

 

But my point is more that as good of a coach as Payton is he has lost playoff games to teams the Saints were definitely more talented than. McDermott's Bills have always lost to teams where you went in saying it was close to a 50/50 game. 

8 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

If/when we bow out of the playoffs another year or 2 leading to coaching changes, all the "you guys are nuts!" people will be the FIRST to say, "This was justified; good decision by the franchise; need a new voice in the locker room."

 

LOL

 

It's just that some of us are a bit ahead of the slower fans.

 

That may be true. I don't think this regime should be fired now. I can see a route to me being there in a year's time, but I can see a route to me still thinking in a year's time that they should remain. 

 

Everyone has a time. That doesn't mean I believe this regime's time is now. I also don't think anyone is crazy for thinking it is.... but I do think it is an overreaction.

[Chaos]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Aren't they the only two ways to lose? They lose a close one you can call it choking they lose big you can call it a stomping? 

 

But my point is more that as good of a coach as Payton is he has lost playoff games to teams the Saints were definitely more talented than. McDermott's Bills have always lost to teams where you went in saying it was close to a 50/50 game. 

 

That may be true. I don't think this regime should be fired now. I can see a route to me being there in a year's time, but I can see a route to me still thinking in a year's time that they should remain. 

 

Everyone has a time. That doesn't mean I believe this regime's time is now. I also don't think anyone is crazy for thinking it is.... but I do think it is an overreaction.

are you seriously suggesting 13 seconds was just a close lose, and not a choke? 

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

are you seriously suggesting 13 seconds was just a close lose, and not a choke? 

 

Nope. But good attempt to build a straw man. 

[nucci]

Payton is a bit overrrated. Remember he used to take Brees off the field on 3rd downs and put in Hill

[Dopey]

I’ll take the wrestler every time. 

[Mr. WEO]

As a HC, Payton is Mike McCarthy