QB Shove Play Needs to Stop

[ArtVandalay]

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

[transient]

Or at least give a hard count as Gabe passes by once in a while to get a free 5 yds. 

[Augie]

Unless……you don’t.

 

Keeping all options open is always a good thing. You might draw encroachment in the last minute the playoffs with that. We’ll never know. 

 

Pushing is legal, pulling is not. Push when it makes sense. 

[Process]

Just now, transient said:

Or at least give a hard count as Gabe passes by once in a while to get a free 5 yds. 

Seems like it would have been a perfect opportunity to do that. 

[The Frankish Reich]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

Unless……you don’t.

 

Keeping all options open is always a good thing. You might draw encroachment in the last minute the playoffs with that. We’ll never know. 

 

Pushing is legal, pulling is not. Push when it makes sense. 

Why is pushing legal?

A long time ago, wasn't this flagged as Aiding the Runner?

I don't see any value in allowing it, and it seems to add to the potential for injury as increasingly big players are used as pushers. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, transient said:

Or at least give a hard count as Gabe passes by once in a while to get a free 5 yds. 

i wondered about a hard count there even taking the clock to :00, what’s a half the distance penalty there? 3 inches? 

[Simon]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

A long time ago, wasn't this flagged as Aiding the Runner?

 

Only if you're pulling him

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, Simon said:

 

Only if you're pulling him

Answering my own question (yep, google is indeed my friend): since 2005.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/11/04/teams-could-take-full-advantage-of-rule-that-permits-pushing-the-runner/

 

As I said, I liked the old rule just fine. How long until we see a Jordan Philips reporting as eligible and slamming into Josh? Is that a good idea for the NFL in general?

[Augie]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Why is pushing legal?

A long time ago, wasn't this flagged as Aiding the Runner?

I don't see any value in allowing it, and it seems to add to the potential for injury as increasingly big players are used as pushers. 

 

It’s been a thing for a while. You see it in every game where the RB is stopped, and the “pile” gets moved a few more yards. 

 

The “Bush Push” made it famous during the classic USC vs Notre Dame game. I was with my oldest, a 16 year old at The Anchor Bar to see that one. Classic moment of my life. 

[reddogblitz]

4 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Answering my own question (yep, google is indeed my friend): since 2005.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/11/04/teams-could-take-full-advantage-of-rule-that-permits-pushing-the-runner/

 

As I said, I liked the old rule just fine. How long until we see a Jordan Philips reporting as eligible and slamming into Josh? Is that a good idea for the NFL in general?

 

I agree. Seems like an odd rule for a league allegedly all in on player safety.  As is adding another regular season game and more playoff games, but I digress.

Edited November 15, 2022 by reddogblitz

[BillsFan130]

Has this play ever been stopped? (Not counting the fumbled snap as stopped as it was a self inflicted play that was an anomaly)

 

I actually love the play call.

 

The issue was the bobbled snap, had absolutely nothing to do with the shove

[CEN-CAL17]

21 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

What happens if they fake it and drop back off it??? Wait that’s too creative….

 

Gabe still goes in motion still goes for the push, Josh just drops back. For every run play we have as an OC I’d have a countermeasure to pass off the same action. But we don’t run much play action do there’s that.

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, BillsFan130 said:

Has this play ever been stopped? (Not counting the fumbled snap as stopped as it was a self inflicted play that was an anomaly)

 

I actually love the play call.

 

The issue was the bobbled snap, had absolutely nothing to do with the shove

 

It was stopped vs Tennessee last year.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

It’s been a thing for a while. You see it in every game where the RB is stopped, and the “pile” gets moved a few more yards. 

 

The “Bush Push” made it famous during the classic USC vs Notre Dame game. I was with my oldest, a 16 year old at The Anchor Bar to see that one. Classic moment of my life. 

Interesting. I don't remember it being a thing in the NFL until this year.

I still hate it. I realize there will be judgement calls - was that really pushing the runner forward or trying to come in on an angle and throw a block? - but the NFL lived with that rule until 2005. Given that the QB sneak is - let's face it - a pretty dull play (did he make it? I don't know, maybe his forward progress broke the plane with the ball, but I'm not sure there's clear and convincing evidence to overturn the call on the field" blah, blah blah), pushing the QB will sooner or later result in injury, and I'd rather incentivize offenses to run more exciting plays anyway ... the Florio article I linked above makes the same argument about injury and ultimately outlawing it.

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

It was stopped vs Tennessee last year.

The shove play?

 

I don’t recall that. I thought it was just as straight up QB sneak

[JoshAllin]

They have been announcing the play all year and with success no need to stop it because of a botched bobble

[reddogblitz]

17 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

The shove play?

 

I don’t recall that. I thought it was just as straight up QB sneak

 

OK.  Maybe no shove.  But do we really want to call a two handed push to Josh's backside a "shove"?

 

I have 2 problems with this play:

 

1. Its an injury waiting to happen with 300 pound guys shove into each other with the QB in between.  in our case, The (playing injured) Franchise.

 

2. If you're gonna run that play then run it. Line up someone or 2 or maybe even 3 big guys one step behind Josh and stove like hell like the Eagles do.  No need for motion and all that.  Don't have a WR two handed shoving the QBs backside.

 

As far as has it ever been stopped, not sure. Has it ever worked inside your own 1 yard line?

 

If the NFL wants to have this rule, then don't tell me how much you care about " player safety".

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by reddogblitz

[Ethan in Cleveland]

League should do an in-season rule change and stop this non-sense.  It's not even fair to the defense.  Hell you could call it QB safety/protection and say he is down at the spot he is pushed from behind.  

[LABILLBACKER]

Or just stick 4 wrs in pattern and spread the field. That play was doomed to fail considering Josh hates sneaks behind center. Stick him in shotgun and give him options to run or pass outside the c/d gap.

[AuntieEm]

29 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Has this play ever been stopped? (Not counting the fumbled snap as stopped as it was a self inflicted play that was an anomaly)

 

I actually love the play call.

 

The issue was the bobbled snap, had absolutely nothing to do with the shove

 

  No but if a qb feels the bobbled snap then is pushed he doesn't likel, get the ball secured whereas without the push he may make the save of botched handoff.

 

 

[Not at the table Karlos]

56 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said:

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

They've snapped the ball at different times in the motion. There was one snapped when Davis was outside the tackles. He ran up after the ball was snapped and pushed 

36 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

It was stopped vs Tennessee last year.

Did they use motion and the push that game?

[BillsFan130]

32 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

OK.  Maybe no shove.  But do we really want to call a two handed push to Josh's backside a "shove"?

 

I have 2 problems with this play:

 

1. Its an injury waiting to happen with 300 pound guys shove into each other with the QB in between.  in our case, The (playing injured) Franchise.

 

2. If you're gonna run that play then run it. Line up someone or 2 or maybe even 3 big guys one step behind Josh and stove like hell like the Eagles do.  No need for motion and all that.  Don't have a WR two handed shoving the QBs backside.

 

As far as has it ever been stopped, not sure. Has it ever worked inside your own 1 yard line?

 

If the NFL wants to have this rule, then don't tell me how much you care about " player safety".

 

It’s the teams decision to use that play or not that though 

What I’m trying to say is “player safety” has everything to do with if the team wants to put their own QB in that situation.

 

I personally don’t even think it’s dangerous and I think it’s a really good call and is almost automatic. (As long as you don’t fumble the snap🙄)
 

 

[reddogblitz]

19 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Did they use motion and the push that game?

 

No.  I addressed that 4 posts up from the bottom of page 1.

 

But it had the same result. Josh flubs up and doesn't get it.  "The Slip" vs Tennessee and "The Fumble" yesterday.   Aside from the 2 handed push to Josh's backside they were thge same.  Everyone bunched in on offense and defense and we telegraphed the play.  Something to think about?

4 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

It’s the teams decision to use that play or not that though 

What I’m trying to say is “player safety” has everything to do with if the team wants to put their own QB in that situation.

 

I personally don’t even think it’s dangerous and I think it’s a really good call and is almost automatic. (As long as you don’t fumble the snap🙄)
 

 

 

Good point.  Would it also be OK for a team to let their QB play without a helmet?

 

Maybe you right and it's not dangerous.  Not sure but I think it is.

[BillsFan130]

18 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

No.  I addressed that 4 posts up from the bottom of page 1.

 

But it had the same result. Josh flubs up and doesn't get it.  "The Slip" vs Tennessee and "The Fumble" yesterday.   Aside from the 2 handed push to Josh's backside they were thge same.  Everyone bunched in on offense and defense and we telegraphed the play.  Something to think about?

 

Good point.  Would it also be OK for a team to let their QB play without a helmet?

 

Maybe you right and it's not dangerous.  Not sure but I think it is.

That’s such an extreme example compared to getting a minor push in a QB sneak lol

 

But fair enough. We will agree to disagree 

[Big Turk]

3 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Why is pushing legal?

A long time ago, wasn't this flagged as Aiding the Runner?

I don't see any value in allowing it, and it seems to add to the potential for injury as increasingly big players are used as pushers. 

 

Because when football started way back in the early days, pushing the runner was a huge part of the game and many times the games became huge masses of bodies pushing the runner forward as the plays and it devolved into a giant scrum.

 

The game was very much boring and pints were common, many times kicked on 2nd or 3rd downs and were the "excitement" of the game that many times would end 0-0 or with a single team scoring one time to win.

 

It's a long way of saying because it's always been a part of the sport.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Big Turk

[Dr.Sack]

I honestly thought you were talking about QB Turnovers need to end. I mean Brady has 12 TDs 2 picks. Throwing checkdowns gets you to .500 ball. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

13 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

I’m sorry, but everyone and their grandma knew Bills were running a QB sneak well before anybody went in motion.

[ArtVandalay]

9 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I’m sorry, but everyone and their grandma knew Bills were running a QB sneak well before anybody went in motion.

That's right but we also have away the snap count, so not only did they know what we were running, but WHEN we were snapping it. Dead in the water. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

22 hours ago, transient said:

Or at least give a hard count as Gabe passes by once in a while to get a free 5 yds. 

Which would’ve likely worked wonders on Sunday. You’re hired! 

[NoSaint]

22 hours ago, transient said:

Or at least give a hard count as Gabe passes by once in a while to get a free 5 yds. 

I would’ve been totally fine with a delay of game or 3 before snapping it honestly 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

3 hours ago, ArtVandalay said:

That's right but we also have away the snap count, so not only did they know what we were running, but WHEN we were snapping it. Dead in the water. 

Good point

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, NoSaint said:

I would’ve been totally fine with a delay of game or 3 before snapping it honestly 

 

At first II thought this sounded like a great idea.  But how would it work? After the goal line stand On 1st down the clock is stopped.  And after a penalty the clock stops.  

[TheWeatherMan]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:07 AM, ArtVandalay said:

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

You’re right, we should do the shotgun handoff for -2 yards.  Much more efficient! 

[NoSaint]

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At first II thought this sounded like a great idea.  But how would it work? After the goal line stand On 1st down the clock is stopped.  And after a penalty the clock stops.  

Hard count and hope the vikes jump, 5 yards. They’d be real eager as the clock hits 1 second and Gabe gets behind. They don’t jump after a full round, hope you catch them frozen more worried about the penalty than giving up a yard on the sneak. 

[Dopey]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:31 PM, reddogblitz said:

 

It was stopped vs Tennessee last year.

Not quite the same thing,imo. Pretty that was just a straight qb sneak. Josh did blow both plays though. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At first II thought this sounded like a great idea.  But how would it work? After the goal line stand On 1st down the clock is stopped.  And after a penalty the clock stops.  

The game clock was already stopped. The play clock resets. 

As for a delay of game, the only reason to do that is to try and get them to jump Offside before the play clock hits zero. As others pointed out, half the distance at that point is 3 inches. 

[Thurman#1]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:07 AM, ArtVandalay said:

When I first saw this play I thought it was clever... then like the rest of the league I saw it again, and again, and again... we are half way through the year and they must have run this play a half dozen to a dozen times at least. 

 

The whole league knows they run it... and yesterday the Vikings jumped the snap and knew the Bills were running it.

 

The issue is by sending Gabe in motion, you are tipping your snap count. The defense is watching Gabe in motion and jumping when he's on position for the push.

 

Clever at first but now you are essentially announcing to the defense when you are going to snap the ball. And you told the Vikings yesterday when the snap was coming perhaps the most important part of getting a sneak to be successful, not letting the defense on to your cadence. 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't tell the defense when you are going to snap the ball. Gives them a general idea, but equally the receiver could settle, take off left or right in motion ... there are a million possible variations. Sometimes it tells, sometimes it's a fake, sometimes the crosser is going to catch a pass, it goes on and on. Defenses get some tendencies. Then you use the tendencies on them and do something else. It's not the same guy each time who pushes. Nor do they push every time. Nor do they push straight forward each time, sometimes Allen steps to either side. 

 

And again, the problem on that goal line play wasn't the play. It was the mishandled snap. Period. The middle of the line moved the pile pretty well, actually. I just watched the All-22 and Allen was going to have to get through a charging LB who had to leap into the air to reach the area. He does that with no problem if he actually had the ball.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Son of a K-Gun]

On 11/15/2022 at 1:09 AM, Big Turk said:

 

Because when football started way back in the early days, pushing the runner was a huge part of the game and many times the games became huge masses of bodies pushing the runner forward as the plays and it devolved into a giant scrum.

 

The game was very much boring and pints were common, many times kicked on 2nd or 3rd downs and were the "excitement" of the game that many times would end 0-0 or with a single team scoring one time to win.

 

It's a long way of saying because it's always been a part of the sport.

 

Hmm, sounds like baseball 😉

[The Frankish Reich]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:09 PM, Big Turk said:

Because when football started way back in the early days, pushing the runner was a huge part of the game and many times the games became huge masses of bodies pushing the runner forward as the plays and it devolved into a giant scrum.

Thanks … I get it now. 
But now that the “secret” is out (it only took 16 years since the rule change for offenses to exploit it), isn’t it likely that we’ll see short yardage offenses with a big guy lined up to take the snap (Florio suggests Taysom Hill) and two enormous Jordan Phillips type “pushers” lined up behind him to slam the QB forward? It’s a pure matter of Newtonian physics: F = MV. Is that really what we want to see in today’s game?

Edited November 16, 2022 by The Frankish Reich

[ArtVandalay]

11 hours ago, TheWeatherMan said:

You’re right, we should do the shotgun handoff for -2 yards.  Much more efficient! 

Sorry,  didn't know that was the only other option.  You're right, let's tell the other team when we are going to snap the ball on a sneak, because our only other option is a shotgun run for -2.

 

Thanks for the levity.