Allen is the Bills only short yardage option

[Inigo Montoya]

Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out.  I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield.  The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff.

 

It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday.  Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss.  Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down.  Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball.   Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two.   Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up.

 

These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year.  It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option.  

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

You are unfortunately correct sir.  A quick hitter to Gilliam is the only other running play I remember picking up a 4th down.

[FilthyBeast]

Agree but it's not sustainable because of the injury risk and predictability factor.

 

Still think Singletary can be a short yardage work horse if they give up this whole Zack Moss power back fantasy.

 

Also why not give Gilliam the ball on 3rd or 4th and short? He seems like he could be a viable option there as well.

[BuffBillsForLife]

And yet, failed runs up the gut by Zack Moss are still the go-to play on 3rd and 1.  The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook despite our QB being built like a greek god.

[Magox]

This is a real problem fand  is the only true weakness on this team but a potentially costly one.

 

I have very little confidence that on short yardage situations that the team can get the push that it needs to consistently get first downs running the ball with their RB's.   They either have to somehow get this fixed during the course of the year or look at alternative ways to get the yards needed.   Having Allen does afford a lot of other viable alternatives but having your meats and potatoes approach of smashing it ahead for a yard or two should be your #1 option and without that option it can create problems.

 

I'm certain in the offseason the Bills will draft a couple O-linemen in the early to early mid round picks but have to figure out a way around it for this year.

[BuffaloMatt]

I am uncertain why they don't sneak it more. Anybody know the answer? 

[Big Turk]

Bills are not great in power situations, but they aren't as bad as I would have expected...

 

They convert 56% of the time, league average is 63%.  Also, rank 21st in stuff percentage, at 21% of the time, based on the eye test would have expected us to be dead last with that as well.  Seems like the RBs are always having to make someone miss in the backfield when they get the ball.

 

 

[Bruffalo]

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

Agree but it's not sustainable because of the injury risk and predictability factor.

 

Still think Singletary can be a short yardage work horse if they give up this whole Zack Moss power back fantasy.

 

Also why not give Gilliam the ball on 3rd or 4th and short? He seems like he could be a viable option there as well.

They don't even try Singletary on 4th and short and I don't really understand why. 

 

Moss, who is just worse than Singletary in pretty much everything, still has the coaching staff's trust in those situations.  It doesn't make any sense, because he's the reason they're in that situation in the first place. 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 minute ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook

Since the Tenn game last year this has been an issue, maybe longer.  This used to be automatic and now they can't get a push.  Brady still does it at 450 years old.  The OL need to man up.

[FilthyBeast]

1 minute ago, Bruffalo said:

They don't even try Singletary on 4th and short and I don't really understand why. 

 

Moss, who is just worse than Singletary in pretty much everything, still has the coaching staff's trust in those situations.  It doesn't make any sense, because he's the reason they're in that situation in the first place. 

 

When you think about it Singletary would be perfect for short yardage because he's a smallish back that can slip through the oline, and has more than enough power to his game.

 

This is why I still don't trust McD, horrendous personel decisions and yes your are right about Zack Moss being terrible at everything. It's simply time to move on and make him inactive or just release him.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

9 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

When you think about it Singletary would be perfect for short yardage because he's a smallish back that can slip through the oline, and has more than enough power to his game.

 

This is why I still don't trust McD, horrendous personel decisions and yes your are right about Zack Moss being terrible at everything. It's simply time to move on and make him inactive or just release him.

 

It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back.  

14 minutes ago, BuffaloMatt said:

I am uncertain why they don't sneak it more. Anybody know the answer? 

 

Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak?  

15 minutes ago, Magox said:

This is a real problem fand  is the only true weakness on this team but a potentially costly one.

 

I have very little confidence that on short yardage situations that the team can get the push that it needs to consistently get first downs running the ball with their RB's.   They either have to somehow get this fixed during the course of the year or look at alternative ways to get the yards needed.   Having Allen does afford a lot of other viable alternatives but having your meats and potatoes approach of smashing it ahead for a yard or two should be your #1 option and without that option it can create problems.

 

I'm certain in the offseason the Bills will draft a couple O-linemen in the early to early mid round picks but have to figure out a way around it for this year.

 

The problem on 4th and 1 is a drop is a turnover.  So passing is always a bit riskier.  I don't have faith in the offensive lines ability to run block literally any type of run call.  Seems like crack tosses have worked, and some pin and pull type of stuff.  But thats not usualy what you want to do when you need a yard.  Add jet motion, hand some balls to mckenzie going laterally and get them questioning it so they aren't just pushing our guys back. Add a hard count.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Inigo Montoya]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back.  

 

Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak?  

 

You're right, it was, but the Ravens were trying to let Allen score so they could get the ball back with enough time on the clock to do something.  Allen just fell forward past the line of gain and got a fresh set of downs to run the clock out with.

[Magox]

7 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

It does not matter who the back is - teams stack the line and they push our linemen back.  

 

Wasn't our last offensive play this week a QB sneak?  

 

The problem on 4th and 1 is a drop is a turnover.  So passing is always a bit riskier.  I don't have faith in the offensive lines ability to run block literally any type of run call.  Seems like crack tosses have worked, and some pin and pull type of stuff.  But thats not usualy what you want to do when you need a yard.  Add jet motion, hand some balls to mckenzie going laterally and get them questioning it so they aren't just pushing our guys back. Add a hard count.  

 

I agree, they are going to have to mix it up and disguise looks and formations, switch up snap counts all sorts of things but at the end of the day they have to to be able to run the ball some with their RB's with some sort of level of success.

 

Have to find a way to get the opposing teams linemen to not just fire off and push the O line back into the backfield.

[Lost]

26 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out.  I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield.  The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff.

 

It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday.  Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss.  Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down.  Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball.   Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two.   Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up.

 

These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year.  It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option.  

 

 

 

I was yelling at the tv all game on Sunday to get Allen out of the pocket on more plays.  The RPO is their bread and butter and they seemed reluctant to go with it for a while.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Here’s the thing. Allen is better scrambling then designed runs IMO. I don’t like when we run Allen on short yards.

 

Forget short yardage runs. Run a normal pass play on short yardage and if it’s not there let Allen make a play.

[Motorin']

23 minutes ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

And yet, failed runs up the gut by Zack Moss are still the go-to play on 3rd and 1.  The QB sneak is no longer in the playbook despite our QB being built like a greek god.

 

In fairness, Josh converted the game sealing 1st down with a QB sneak. Maybe they had the yips calling it after losing the Titans game last year on it? 

 

I'm still shocked we didn't use it to win the Miami game. Even with the #3 center in the game...

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Here’s the thing. Allen is better scrambling then designed runs IMO. I don’t like when we run Allen on short yards.

 

Forget short yardage runs. Run a normal pass play on short yardage and if it’s not there let Allen make a play.

 

Accept QB Power from shotgun with pulling Olineman leading the way. 

 

I don't really want to see that play until the playoffs, but that is his best called running play imo. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

In fairness, Josh converted the game sealing 1st down with a QB sneak. Maybe they had the yips calling it after losing the Titans game last year on it? 

 

I'm still shocked we didn't use it to win the Miami game. Even with the #3 center in the game...

 

Accept QB Power from shotgun with pulling Olineman leading the way. 

 

I don't really want to see that play until the playoffs, but that is his best called running play imo. 

QB power is good. I would still rather just run a normal pass play. Take my chances with Josh making a completion or getting a yard on a scramble. 
 

 

[Bangarang]

Ideally, one of our first two picks in the draft is a massive mauler for the OL. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Bangarang

[The Jokeman]

Groot was a WR in high school, give him a handoff and let's see if he can plow forward for a 1st down. 

[ChevyVanMiller]

Here's a great article on the probability of picking up a first down on 3rd or 4th and 1 yard situations. A QB sneak is far and away the best option. A FB quick hitter is the only other option that has a good success rate. Handing the ball off to Zach Moss did not chart. 

https://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by ChevyVanMiller

[BuffaloBills1998]

This is why we need a big power back to help take some of the pressure off of Josh. 

[Royale with Cheese]

Give Josh the option of running or throwing like the TD to Knox in the WC playoff game in 2020.  We can't run up the middle...no sense in going to the jumbo package.

[TheBrownBear]

41 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

When you think about it Singletary would be perfect for short yardage because he's a smallish back that can slip through the oline, and has more than enough power to his game.

 

This is why I still don't trust McD, horrendous personel decisions and yes your are right about Zack Moss being terrible at everything. It's simply time to move on and make him inactive or just release him.

Part of the problem is that Moss runs too upright.  Singletary is better in those situations since he can get low and really drive forward with his legs.

[97bills]

Oline has to be fixed next year. It happens way to often give the rb the ball and immediately he’s met in the backfield by more then one guy. it sad this has been going on for years now. 

[FilthyBeast]

18 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Part of the problem is that Moss runs too upright.  Singletary is better in those situations since he can get low and really drive forward with his legs.

 

That's my point, he's actually the better short yardage option for that reason alone which makes Moss usage even more puzzling. Hopefully we don't have to talk about Zack Moss much longer.

[HoofHearted]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Allen is almost impossible to stop on short yardage when he rolls out.  I think Dorsey has been trying to get the backs involved in short yardage, and Moss seemed to do well with it in the preseason, but during the regular season the backs are getting stoned in the backfield.  The O-line is just not getting any push at all and we are more likely to lose a yard than gain one when the backs get the handoff.

 

It was 4th and 1 at the Ravens 26 yard line yesterday.  Josh rolled out to his left and there were defenders there prepared for the roll out and it looked like he might get tackled for a loss.  Josh did some of his shifty Elvis hips stuff and managed to cut the ball up avoiding the defenders and got 4 yards and the 1st down.  Josh is way to big to be as slippery as he is running the ball.   Even if a defender gets his hands on Josh he can usually bull forward and drag the defender for a yard or two.   Allen's speed, agility, and strength make him very hard to bring down when he gets a head of steam moving along the line of scrimmage and then decides to cut it up.

 

These Allen roll outs were the most successful method for the team to convert short yardage last season, and despite Dorsey's best efforts, were in the same boat again this year.  It's not optimal to have our QB be the short yardage back too, but when the Bills really need to move the ball a yard, rolling Allen out is the best option.  

 

 

If you're talking about the Naked Bootleg in the redzone it was actually a designed pass.

[Big Turk]

Watching the John Fina Podcast called Off Tackle again today and his breakdowns are very interesting...

 

Basically from what he is saying, we currently suck at inside zone blocking that we are trying to do because the players are making technical mistakes in the play in terms of who they are supposed to be blocking or not fully executing their assignments properly(ie, Saffold is supposed to help chip the player lined up across from him before he pulls because Dawkins has no prayer of reaching him to block him otherwise and he doesn't, leading to Singletary being tackled for a loss instead of having a huge lane to run through if it was executed properly).

 

To be honest, this isn't overly surprising with us changing the running scheme this year coupled with us not running very often for them to get real reps.

 

I would expect them to get better as the year goes on.

 

Would highly recommend if you want to get breakdowns by Fina of technical aspects of the run game and why things aren't working as well as they could be,

Edited October 4, 2022 by Big Turk

[HoofHearted]

17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

Watching the John Fina Podcast called Off Tackle again today and his breakdowns are very interesting...

 

Basically from what he is saying, we currently suck at inside zone blocking that we are trying to do because the players are making technical mistakes in the play in terms of who they are supposed to be blocking or not fully executing their assignments properly(ie, Saffold is supposed to help chip the player lined up across from him before he pulls because Dawkins has no prayer of reaching him to block him otherwise and he doesn't, leading to Singletary being tackled for a loss instead of having a huge lane to run through if it was executed properly).

 

To be honest, this isn't overly surprising with us changing the running scheme this year coupled with us not running very often for them to get real reps.

 

I would expect them to get better as the year goes on.

 

Would highly recommend if you want to get breakdowns by Fina of technical aspects of the run game and why things aren't working as well as they could be,

 

To be fair we ran a bunch of zone scheme stuff early on last year too and sucked at it. Once we switched over to more gap scheme stuff we started being able to run the ball more effectively.

[Big Turk]

18 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

 

To be fair we ran a bunch of zone scheme stuff early on last year too and sucked at it. Once we switched over to more gap scheme stuff we started being able to run the ball more effectively.

 

Yeah I remember that...what do you think the issue is?  I remember Kromer ran the zone blocking scheme when he was here last time and there were plays where it looked like the RB had 4 holes to pick from that would all be big gains. That was back when TD Mike Gillislee seemingly would come in the game and rip off a huge run once a game and wouldn't even be touched until he was like 30 yards downfield.   Believe the Bills led the league in rushing once and maybe twice during those years.

 

I find it hard to believe he just forgot how to run the scheme or coach the players how to run it properly.  It seems to me the players jus aren't very good at executing the fundamentals of it or there are a few responsibilities on a play(ie, Saffold chipping a blocker first to allow Dawkins to get to make a reach block) and they either forget the first part of what they are having to do or they are just making fundamental errors when executing it.  If I not mistaken Zone Blocking kinda requires the entire OL to block in unison or it doesn't work right, correct?  Much more so than a man on man scheme where a player can miss a block but the play can be successful because they are running away from that side.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Big Turk

[HoofHearted]

32 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Yeah I remember that...what do you think the issue is?  I remember Kromer ran the zone blocking scheme when he was here last time and there were plays where it looked like the RB had 4 holes to pick from that would all be big gains. That was back when TD Mike Gillislee seemingly would come in the game and rip off a huge run once a game and wouldn't even be touched until he was like 30 yards downfield.   Believe the Bills led the league in rushing once and maybe twice during those years.

 

I find it hard to believe he just forgot how to run the scheme or coach the players how to run it properly.  It seems to me the players jus aren't very good at executing the fundamentals of it or there are a few responsibilities on a play(ie, Saffold chipping a blocker first to allow Dawkins to get to make a reach block) and they either forget the first part of what they are having to do or they are just making fundamental errors when executing it.  If I not mistaken Zone Blocking kinda requires the entire OL to block in unison or it doesn't work right, correct?  Much more so than a man on man scheme where a player can miss a block but the play can be successful because they are running away from that side.

 

 

Yeah, everyone is essentially on 45 degree angle tracks to the play side. They all have to work in unison in order to work through their covered, to uncovered, to backside backer rules. Since I'm in season right now I haven't been able to really look all that closely into it, but just based on our personnel we're undersized for what we're trying to do. There's been a few times I've seen us not hold the double long enough for the other OL to overtake the block as well.

[Ralonzo]

That Raven who jumped on the pump fake to Singletary, you could see on his face while he was still ascending "Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

[Billz4ever]

23 hours ago, BuffaloMatt said:

I am uncertain why they don't sneak it more. Anybody know the answer? 

They did it for the 1st down that led to the FG for the win in Bal, so I don't know why they don't.  Josh is a big, tall guy.  I don't know why they don't think he can pick up a yard in goal line situations.  Run it back to back to back plays if you have to.  Stopping that play from getting a yard multiple times is a tall order for any defense.

[Ralonzo]

22 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Give Josh the option of running or throwing like the TD to Knox in the WC playoff game in 2020.  We can't run up the middle...no sense in going to the jumbo package.

 

The jumbo package late last year with Doyle at TE was very effective. Of course, that's no longer an option, at least as far as Doyle is concerned.

[GunnerBill]

19 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

 

To be fair we ran a bunch of zone scheme stuff early on last year too and sucked at it. Once we switched over to more gap scheme stuff we started being able to run the ball more effectively.

 

Which is why it is slightly odd that they have hire Kromer to come back and run the zone scheme again. It is like they are obsessed with it and even though the gap scheme worked better for us they immediately binned that in the offseason to go back to zone blocking. 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Which is why it is slightly odd that they have hire Kromer to come back and run the zone scheme again. It is like they are obsessed with it and even though the gap scheme worked better for us they immediately binned that in the offseason to go back to zone blocking. 

It is confusing. You wish there was a Bills' reporter smart enough to explicitly ask them about their thinking in that respect.

[Billz4ever]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

It is confusing. You wish there was a Bills' reporter smart enough to explicitly ask them about their thinking in that respect.

So, at what point are you McD here and finally come to the realization that what they're currently doing is just not going to cut it?

 

Is it something he would be scared to do midseason because of all the potential ramifications?

 

Do you think he thinks it's just a matter of time before this OL gels and believes it will come together?  

 

Or is McD just stubborn and will not change his ways no matter if it's abundantly clear the current gameplan isn't working?

[Nextmanup]

I've said this 100 times here and I'll write it again: Josh running the ball is the most dangerous thing we do.

 

 

[Don Otreply]

23 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Groot was a WR in high school, give him a handoff and let's see if he can plow forward for a 1st down. 

Justin Zimmer, our new short yardage RB, 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Billz4ever said:

So, at what point are you McD here and finally come to the realization that what they're currently doing is just not going to cut it?

 

Is it something he would be scared to do midseason because of all the potential ramifications?

 

Do you think he thinks it's just a matter of time before this OL gels and believes it will come together?  

 

Or is McD just stubborn and will not change his ways no matter if it's abundantly clear the current gameplan isn't working?

I don't really know, obviously, but it seems to me they changed personnel and method late in the season last year. Oline play demonstrably improved and so did the run game. So, I take from that McD is willing to make a midseason change. Maybe they think the current strategy will improve with reps, though I am skeptical. Of course, what would really help is more talent on the oline. I hope it is a priority next year, though probably they'll be looking at safety in the first round knowing their proclivities.

[mjt328]

23 hours ago, Magox said:

This is a real problem fand  is the only true weakness on this team but a potentially costly one.

 

I have very little confidence that on short yardage situations that the team can get the push that it needs to consistently get first downs running the ball with their RB's.   They either have to somehow get this fixed during the course of the year or look at alternative ways to get the yards needed.   Having Allen does afford a lot of other viable alternatives but having your meats and potatoes approach of smashing it ahead for a yard or two should be your #1 option and without that option it can create problems.

 

I'm certain in the offseason the Bills will draft a couple O-linemen in the early to early mid round picks but have to figure out a way around it for this year.

 

This is exactly where I'm at on the running game.

 

I'm OK with us not being a run-heavy team, or even a somewhat balanced team.  I think we can continue to be a successful offense with the current run/pass ratio.  My only worry is that our O-Line's lack of consistent push kills us on a short-yardage situation at some point in the future.  At some point, we may be lined up in a crucial 4th-1 or 4th-2 (like the Titans last season).  I'm not confident we can pick it up.

 

Last year, we struggled to run in all situations... even when teams showed very light boxes and dared us.  We've done a slightly better job with that so far this year, and broken off a couple nice plays with Devin Singletary.  I was optimistic after the Rams game.  But it's gotten more troublesome with each ensuing game, and our inability to get anything going on short-yardage without Josh Allen running the ball.