NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[Sestak4ever]

So coach says only a concussion, nothing else. Wow! Say what they want but he has had two concussions in 4 days. That does not bode well for the long term. When he returns he will be subject to many more hits and any further head trauma will be cumulative. There is a possibility he will start bailing early on his throws. I wouldn’t blame him. That staff is unbelievable.

[BADOLBILZ]

39 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

However this investigation turns out, if I was a Dolphins fan I'd be really concerned about Tua's durability. Some players have a knack for avoiding injuries by positioning their bodies just right when getting hit. I think Allen is one of those players, he has a good feel for never taking a true knockout hit. Tua on the other hand gets injured all the time. Milano gave him a love tap and he managed to smack the back of his head on the ground. I don't mean any offense with that statement, it's just the reality of the sport that you have to be able to withstand violence. So you have a player that you can never rely on for a whole season and a ceiling of maybe 16th best QB in the league. What is the realistic path for a player like that to be a franchise QB?

 

Yep.   His desire to compete writes checks his body can't cash.   That play that he was concussed on last night he had all day to throw the ball away and move on to the next play.   The NFL put all sorts of protections in place for these QB's but you still have to throw the ball away sometimes.    A lot of these young QB's are pushing the envelope and taking too many hits but Tua really can't take them.   The guy entered the league handicapped with a half-fake hip after taking an absolute beating at Alabama..........a place where he played behind the best OL in football every week with the best receivers.      

 

[Mango]

15 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

I would be curious to see the notes from the hospital last night. 
 

I have to imagine it reads something like “patient was brought in via ambulance after possibly suffering his 2nd concussion in the last few days.”

[The Wiz]

14 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Players learn in high school how to game that system. All they have to do lie a bit and learn to mask the response to a bright light in their eyes. Players in the past have talked about purposefully doing poorly on the baseline testing so that they can fake their way through that initial assessment.  

Literally what they were just talking about on First Take.  Bart Scott said players did it all the time so they didn't have to worry about being taken out of the game when they know they were concussed.

[Simon]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep. That is exactly what he was saying. He was examined by he independent neurologist, not diagnosed as having suffered a concussion, and as such did not enter the formal part of "the protocol". 

 

Disgusting.

[LabattBlue]

Did I hear correctly this morning, that if you show any signs of “unsteadiness on feet/mobility issues”, you are out for the game no matter what the independent doctor sees afterwards?  If so, the protocol and whomever is supposed to enforce it, failed miserably.

[Low Positive]

I actually know high school athletes that have faked (or tried to fake) their way through concussion protocol. The key was faking the initial assessment with the trainer so that a doctor never got called in. I think that's what happened here with the team doctor.

• In a high school soccer playoff game, my son's team's leading scorer got knocked in the head. They pulled him, he faked his way through the examination by the athletic trainer (who's a professional employed by the State of Ohio), and went back into the game and scored the winning goal. On the bus ride home, he had to ask him teammates if they'd won the game. He didn't remember anything after that initial hit.
• My daughter is the GK for her HS team. This season she got kicked in the head trying to defend a corner. She kept playing but a while later in the game she grabbed her face and the ref stopped the game. She tried to game that exam and they would have put her back in the game if I hadn't stopped it. Later that night she got a splitting headache and didn't remember the second half of the game. She said she tried to get back in the game because they had no backup and she felt a responsibility to her teammates. I pulled her out of the game.

 

[nucci]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

I would be curious to see the notes from the hospital last night. 
 

I have to imagine it reads something like “patient was brought in via ambulance after possibly suffering his 2nd concussion in the last few days.”

No structural damage to his head?

[Low Positive]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

I would be curious to see the notes from the hospital last night. 
 

I have to imagine it reads something like “patient was brought in via ambulance after possibly suffering his 2nd concussion in the last few days.”

There has to be something involving his father and leaving AMA.

[RiotAct]

I mean, does anyone doubt he plays again in the next 2-3 weeks?

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I actually know high school athletes that have faked (or tried to fake) their way through concussion protocol. The key was faking the initial assessment with the trainer so that a doctor never got called in. I think that's what happened here with the team doctor.

• In a high school soccer playoff game, my son's team's leading scorer got knocked in the head. They pulled him, he faked his way through the examination by the athletic trainer (who's a professional employed by the State of Ohio), and went back into the game and scored the winning goal. On the bus ride home, he had to ask him teammates if they'd won the game. He didn't remember anything after that initial hit.
• My daughter is the GK for her HS team. This season she got kicked in the head trying to defend a corner. She kept playing but a while later in the game she grabbed her face and the ref stopped the game. She tried to game that exam and they would have put her back in the game if I hadn't stopped it. Later that night she got a splitting headache and didn't remember the second half of the game. She said she tried to get back in the game because they had no backup and she felt a responsibility to her teammates. I pulled her out of the game.

 

 

Most people don’t realize how frequent concussions are in soccer. It’s a big deal. Hope everyone is fine long term. 

[The Red King]

2 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

I mean, does anyone doubt he plays again in the next 2-3 weeks?

 

I don't think so.  I think it would have happened, but not now simply because of the attention it's gotten.

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

He's the head coach with medical info available to him for all his players....he's not a Dr. but he does have judgement.  You use your best judgement and err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of others.  He either chose to look the other way to continue the Phins hype train and re-enforce his ego or he just has poor judgement.  

 

If he did something not on the level with Tua regarding his health, he will lose the respect of the veterans on that team.

As far as I'm concerned, this falls TOTALLY on the head coach. He's watching what's going on the field every play. Ray Charles saw that the injury incurred by Tua in the Bills game was NOT a back/ankle injury. The HC has the capability to take that players helmet and tell him he's done for the day. The Dolphins organization is STILL doubling down on the prognosis from Sunday. On top of that, they allowed a player that has been concussed twice in 4 days to get on an airplane where cabin pressure scrambles a non concussed persons brain. This organization has to be the most inept professional group I've encountered. 

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Most people don’t realize how frequent concussions are in soccer. It’s a big deal. Hope everyone is fine long term. 

Two guys go up for a header, one gets the ball and the other gets the other guys head. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yes. League concussion protocol states no practice and 6 days in the protocol program. They wouldn’t have been able to play him on 4 days between games.

I’ve seen players miss 2-3 days and some 2-3 weeks. 

[Solomon Grundy]

16 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Disgusting.

Mike McDaniels sounds like a DAMN fool!! 

[Warcodered]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

No big deal, he just injured his brain, that's not important right?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Mike McDaniels sounds like a DAMN fool!! 

sounds???? 
 

 

[Wayne Cubed]

48 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Did I hear correctly this morning, that if you show any signs of “unsteadiness on feet/mobility issues”, you are out for the game no matter what the independent doctor sees afterwards?  If so, the protocol and whomever is supposed to enforce it, failed miserably.

 

Actually no that's not in the protocol, and that's maybe where there's a loophole.

 

If you exhibit what the NFL calls "gross motor instability" aka you get up from a hit and are a bit wobbly or unsteady, then you must be examined for a concusion. Here's where the loophole is, if the independent doctor and team doctor determine it's no neurological, then you can go back into the game. Both the Dolphins and independent neurologist determined Tuas wasn't neurological from the tests they do in the protocol. Now, that doesn't mean the protocol works or is perfect. He should have obvioulsy been to have further tests

 

The easiest way to close that loop is to just say, hey if you exhibit this gross motor instability, you are out of the game. If I had to guess, they put that in the protocal in case someone gets up from a big hit and trips or falls over another player. That could be viewed as unsteadiness by an independent spotter.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Wayne Cubed

[Low Positive]

9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

I’ve seen players miss 2-3 days and some 2-3 weeks. 

If it is anything like OHSAA concussion protocol, return to play can be as soon at 5 days after symptoms completely disappear. In the beginnign of the process, they pull them out of school to let their brain's rest.  

 

After symptoms, there are 5 steps (i'm summarizing this from the paper I got 3 weeks ago):

1. Light physical activity (light jogging, lightly riding an exercise bike, etc...)
2. Moderate activity (Sprinting, riding faster, etc...)
3. Heavy, non-contact activity (like practicing in a red jersey)
4. Full-contact practice
5. Return to game play.

Again, athletes can lie about mild symptoms because you can't see a headache so they mostly return before they should.

 

Here is a link to that sheet: https://odh.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/8d4a8d94-eaf0-4359-81d2-4fdd49e83b9c/ODH+Concussion+Information+Sheet+for+Youth+Sports+Organizations.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE.Z18_M1HGGIK0N0JO00QO9DDDDM3000-8d4a8d94-eaf0-4359-81d2-4fdd49e83b9c-mXrHfJA

Edited September 30, 2022 by FrenchConnection

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

[nucci]

5 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

Still amazing they called it a back injury.

[wjag]

I would imagine, giving the opportunity to say it over, McDaniels would not say "more serious".  I think we all know he meant paralysis.  Just an awful sound bite repeating over and over today though.

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

Still amazing they called it a back injury.

That's because Tua said it was his back. By the time he got to the locker room, he had knocked the cobwebs out and could pass the baseline testing. No doctor can look inside a patient's head on the spot and see a concussion. They have to have the cooperation of the patient.

3 minutes ago, wjag said:

I would imagine, giving the opportunity to say it over, McDaniels would not say "more serious".  I think we all know he meant paralysis.  Just an awful sound bite repeating over and over today though.

McDaniel is really awkward and tone deaf, but we all know what he meant.

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Just to be clear? if this isn’t on the league is it your ascertain that NHL players are just more honest than NFL players. Lindros, Crosby, Tim Connolly all missed an entire season or more with one concussion? Because other leagues are identifying more concussions with more extensive delays to return. 
 

Somebody posted an earlier a quote from the NFL about protocol along the lines of “we prefer a team approach to concussion evaluation with the independent neurologist and team physician because of familiarity”. I think it’s a liability fail safe to cover the neuro and play the player. 
 

In theory the team physician is there to tell the neurologist that symptoms that may be clinically insignificant should be taken into consideration. But what we see with Tua is the team physician is offering possibilities of alternative differentials. Given the replay of Tua’s first hit and his attempt to walk away there isn’t a neuro on the planet willing to clear him. Not without another clinician present providing alternatives. 
 

Given the embarrassingly low rate of games/weeks missed in the NFL compared to other sporting leagues, it’s reasonable to assume that this is happening regularly. 
 

I’d imagine that there are a lot of team docs similar to James E Woods’ character in “Any Given Sunday”

 

Crosby, Lindros, Connolly - all showed extensive symptoms of lingering concussion.  Connolly repeated talked about his severe headaches and how light bothered him for months.  Crosby and Lindros both suffered from extended headaches after the concussion.

 

You rarely hear about that with NFL players - why?  My belief is the helmets in the NFL absorb significantly more of the trauma than the helmets in Hockey.  In addition the field in the NFL - even in the worse cases - is significantly softer and more absorbent than the ice in the NHL.  In Hockey when a player gets a severe concussion (or several like the players mentioned) there is more obvious damage and less protection - so the injuries linger longer.  

 

In the NFL most players are exactly what you saw with Tua on Sunday - they get dinged - act funny, but are able to fairly quickly process cognitive questions and do not have severe headaches and light sensitivity.  Those symptoms are part of the concussion protocol and will prevent players from clearing if they are positive.

 

The idea of a team doctor and an independent doctor working together is exactly what was mentioned by the coach - sometimes you can hear that player sounds different - and an independent person that does not spend time with the player will not recognize that necessarily.

 

I also disagree that other leagues are identifying more concussions.  There have been several instances where hockey players are not diagnosed until days after a game because of symptoms, but they were allowed back out into the game.  My guess is we would find that Hockey actually misses more concussions than football, but when they have severe concussion they are caught more frequently due to symptoms that manifest themselves.

 

I think if hockey wanted to do something about concussions - they would invest in significantly better protection of the heads than the loose helmets with little padding that is currently worn.  Additionally Hockey players may play 3-4-5 games in a week and therefore a concussion that lasts 6 days may involve missing 4 games - where in the NFL that same concussion would result in not missing a game - you are comparing apples and oranges with games miss.  Based on a season - each NFL game missed would equal at minimum 5 NHL games and as I have said - many NHL players have had to retire due to concussions because the symptoms do not go away.

 

Now - I totally agree that I think Tua most likely had a concussion on Sunday against the Bills and as I have stated - I think the NFLPA/NFL should be pushing for if a person has the “wobbly knees” where they can’t walk or goes to the wrong huddle type of sign - then they should automatically be placed into the protocol and not cleared to return - period, but that is not the rule the NFL/NFLPA agreed to.  They agreed that the player would be evaluated independently and compared to a baseline test and if they can pass that and have no lingering symptoms- they can be cleared.

 

Finally, to your bolded - It makes sense that no one would clear him - except they did.  McDaniel has stated he was evaluated by the independent physician and he cleared the exam within reasonable expectations of his baseline and had no symptoms.  So did the independent physician not do his job?  Was the baseline testing that Tua did falsely low - to help him clear protocol quicker or avoid protocol altogether?  Was the slow walk enough time for Tua to clear his head and pass the cognitive testing - should that have been done quicker?  
 

There are many things to question about the NFL’s protocol and how much should the league and teams do to protect the players from themselves, but if you have a standard - agreed to protocol - and the Dolphins can show it was followed then there is little to do.  
 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[nucci]

5 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

That's because Tua said it was his back. By the time he got to the locker room, he had knocked the cobwebs out and could pass the baseline testing. No doctor can look inside a patient's head on the spot and see a concussion. They have to have the cooperation of the patient.

McDaniel is really awkward and tone deaf, but we all know what he meant.

No good Dr would look at that and agree it was a back injury. Sometimes common sense has to be applied

[Low Positive]

3 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Crosby, Lindros, Connolly - all showed extensive symptoms of lingering concussion.  Connolly repeated talked about his severe headaches and how light bothered him for months.  Crosby and Lindros both suffered from extended headaches after the concussion.

 

You rarely hear about that with NFL players - why?  My belief is the helmets in the NFL absorb significantly more of the trauma than the helmets in Hockey.  In addition the field in the NFL - even in the worse cases - is significantly softer and more absorbent than the ice in the NHL.  In Hockey when a player gets a severe concussion (or several like the players mentioned) there is more obvious damage and less protection - so the injuries linger longer.  

 

In the NFL most players are exactly what you saw with Tua on Sunday - they get dinged - act funny, but are able to fairly quickly process cognitive questions and do not have severe headaches and light sensitivity.  Those symptoms are part of the concussion protocol and will prevent players from clearing if they are positive.

 

The idea of a team doctor and an independent doctor working together is exactly what was mentioned by the coach - sometimes you can hear that player sounds different - and an independent person that does not spend time with the player will not recognize that necessarily.

 

I also disagree that other leagues are identifying more concussions.  There have been several instances where hockey players are not diagnosed until days after a game because of symptoms, but they were allowed back out into the game.  My guess is we would find that Hockey actually misses more concussions than football, but when they have concussion they are caught more frequently due to symptoms that manifest themselves.

 

I think if hockey wanted to do something about concussions - they would invest in significantly better protection of the heads than the loose helmets with little padding that is currently worn.  Additionally Hockey players may play 3-4-5 games in a week and therefore a concussion that lasts 6 days may involve missing 4 games - where in the NFL that same concussion would result in not missing a game - you are comparing apples and oranges with games miss.  Based on a season - each NFL game missed would equal at minimum 5 NHL games and as I have said - many NHL players have had to retire due to concussions because the symptoms do not go away.

 

Now - I totally agree that I think Tua most likely had a concussion on Sunday against the Bills and as I have stated - I think the NFLPA/NFL should be pushing for if a person has the “wobbly knees” where they can’t walk or goes to the wrong huddle type of sign - then they should automatically be placed into the protocol and not cleared to return - period, but that is not the rule the NFL/NFLPA agreed to.  They agreed that the player would be evaluated independently and compared to a baseline test and if they can pass that and have no lingering symptoms- they can be cleared.

 

Finally, to your bolded - It makes sense that no one would clear him - except they did.  McDaniel has stated he was evaluated by the independent physician and he cleared the exam within reasonable expectations of his baseline and had no symptoms.  So did the independent physician not do his job?  Was the baseline testing that Tua did falsely low - to help him clear protocol quicker or avoid protocol altogether?  Was the slow walk enough time for Tua to clear his head and pass the cognitive testing - should that have been done quicker?  
 

There are many things to question about the NFL’s protocol and how much should the league and teams do to protect the players from themselves, but if you have a standard - agreed to protocol - and the Dolphins can show it was followed then there is little to do.  
 

 

I think another factor is that in hockey, you don't see the hit coming a lot of the times. Also, a lot of the hits are a head bouncing off the glass.

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

No good Dr would look at that and agree it was a back injury. Sometimes common sense has to be applied

You'd like to think so. 

[Fan in Chicago]

50 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

Literally what they were just talking about on First Take.  Bart Scott said players did it all the time so they didn't have to worry about being taken out of the game when they know they were concussed.

This decision should be taken out of the players hands. 

[Warcodered]

23 minutes ago, nucci said:

Still amazing they called it a back injury.

It makes sense as an attempt to explain his inability to stand, at the same time it raises so many additional questions as to why he'd be let back in with that injury either.

[Wayne Cubed]

13 minutes ago, nucci said:

No good Dr would look at that and agree it was a back injury. Sometimes common sense has to be applied

 

But this is where the loophole is in the protocol.

 

The protocal states that if you exhibit gross motor instability, aka you are wobbly after a hit, then you have to go for a concussion test. Tua went for the concussion test and it was determind it wasn't neurological, based on the tests they preformed. According to the protocal, you can continue once that's determind. Is that right or wrong? They should probably just say if you exhibit gross motor instability, you are out of the game. I'm sure it's in the protocol because you could get up from a hit and trip over your own feet or a player or whatever and that too could look in instability.

[Low Positive]

My final thoughts on this are that in the end I don't really care. That Rinaldi piece from 3+ years ago has stuck with me. If Tua wants to put his future at risk so as not to appear weak in front of his father, that's his decision. The Dolphins and the NFL should have intervened, but they didn't.

 

I'm just happy that the Bills coaches, front office, and medical staff wouldn't do this. They treat injuries seriously. From all available evidence, if the Bills behaved like the Dolphins, Dane Jackson would have played in Miami on Sunday as would Ed Oliver and Mitch Morse. 

[Ta111]

16 minutes ago, nucci said:

No good Dr would look at that and agree it was a back injury. Sometimes common sense has to be applied

Agreed. As soon as he got up, held his head and wobbled to the ground anyone with half a brain knew he had some degree of concussion.

[Rochesterfan]

18 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

This decision should be taken out of the players hands. 

 

That is what the evaluation is all about - they take it out of the players hands.

 

If they fail the cognitive testing they enter the protocol and can not return.

 

Therefore as Bart Scott stated - many players cheat on the off season baseline testing to help if something happens during the season.

 

For the protocol to work it’s best - it takes the players being honest, both during the game and in baseline testing.

 

If players are going to lie and cheat - the protocols are going to fail and you get exactly what happened with Tua - a guy that should never had returned nor played Thursday, but was cleared for both and will probably be cleared by next Sunday so as not to miss a game.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[Malazan]

18 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

This decision should be taken out of the players hands. 

 

It's supposed to be that way.. 

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, chongli said:

 

 

From the article linked above:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/09/29/demaurice-smith-vows-to-pursue-every-legal-option-regarding-the-handling-of-tua-tagovailoa-on-sunday/

 

 

So, if the doctors are found to have violated protocol, it would be appropriate for all plays involving Tua after he went out just before halftime for the Buffalo game be disqualified. Hence, the Bills should be awarded a 19-14 win. It's never going to happen, but just saying.

 

 

 

So like 5 days later and they still havent answered those questions?  Sounds like the legal team is trying to come up with the perfectly worded response.

[stevewin]

2 hours ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

He's the head coach with medical info available to him for all his players....he's not a Dr. but he does have judgement.  You use your best judgement and err on the side of caution when it comes to the health and safety of others.  He either chose to look the other way to continue the Phins hype train and re-enforce his ego or he just has poor judgement.  

 

If he did something not on the level with Tua regarding his health, he will lose the respect of the veterans on that team.

This exactly.  He does have judgement - and is in a position to make decisions affecting player availability.  To say "but the doctors cleared him" is no excuse.  He saw what everyone else saw Sun - an obvious concussion. 

 

To hear him at the PC (after the "just a concussion" remark) talk about how he would never ever put a hurt player in harms way - so disingenuous - such a lie.  He literally did that Sun, and then again 4 days later.  I personally think McDaniel should be killed for this.  I never really cozied up to his goofy nerd schtick.  I always thought let's see how his schtick goes when things go bad - how will fans/media/players react when things aren't all rainbows.  To me this makes him look REALLY bad - and exposes the kind of guy he really is.  Interested how the media is going to react to him now after all the glowing ball washing that has been going on 

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, Beast said:

What would have stopped him from playing last night if he didn’t go back 8n to the Bills game?

 

If he was put into concussion protocol on Sunday he might not have gotten out of it in time to play Thursday.  Possible I guess but it would have been close. He definitely would not have had any practice time at all.

[Golden*Wheels]

Damn, good ol' Wade has no chill:

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/wade-phillips-ripped-for-insensitive-tua-tagovailoa-tweet/ar-AA12q0Eq?cvid=74800ab16eaf422b831dd854d5b9e0cd

 

"Very poor decision and ability to avoid the rush--no wonder he has been hurt"

Edited September 30, 2022 by Golden*Wheels

[Beast]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

That's because Tua said it was his back. By the time he got to the locker room, he had knocked the cobwebs out and could pass the baseline testing. No doctor can look inside a patient's head on the spot and see a concussion. They have to have the cooperation of the patient.

McDaniel is really awkward and tone deaf, but we all know what he meant.

I don’t disagree. However, a doctor should be able to see Tua stumble and fall, right after the back of his head smacking off the turf, and call BS.

[Mango]

45 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Finally, to your bolded - It makes sense that no one would clear him - except they did.  McDaniel has stated he was evaluated by the independent physician and he cleared the exam within reasonable expectations of his baseline and had no symptoms.  So did the independent physician not do his job?  Was the baseline testing that Tua did falsely low - to help him clear protocol quicker or avoid protocol altogether?  Was the slow walk enough time for Tua to clear his head and pass the cognitive testing - should that have been done quicker?  
 

 

I do not believe we have a copy of the report from the exam. This is likely part of what the NFLPA is reviewing. I suspect the reports reads with "(List of symptoms) Due to past medical history, symptoms can be explained by chronic spinal issues". Doctors never ever write anything concrete "The patient did not suffer a concussion." I would be floored if a report read "Patient shows no sign of a concussion". Doctors only report in terms of 1. facts and 2. to avoid liabilities when writing patient notes. 

The only possible way that Tua clears protocol is the presence of the team doctor to offer an alternate differential because you cannot have an island where he is "cognitive" with the neuro and the neuro see's that replay without another clinician providing an outside plausibility.