Was that Zach Moss run actually impressive?

[bobobonators]

18 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

If completely healthy, and it looks like he is, he's making the team. 

 

The Motor/Moss/Cook combo is a pretty nice young trio that each bring a specific skill set to the table. 

Its a fantasy nightmare but good thing to have in reality. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

Cover1 did this going into the 2021 season.  There is much evidence that Zack is an asset to the Bills pass offense.

 

Moss and Singletary Comparison

[Success]

There are no style points in football.

 

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

I also don't see Motor in the same like as if a Chubb, Henry or Taylor were FA's but if he puts out close to 1k rushing as you said some team will pay more than Buffalo is willing. I do think Cook can be a lead back in a 70/30 split with a RB2 but he has to prove he's more the a pass catching RB. 

Yes, Cook could surprise us and rise to that kind of role.  That's his true upside.   I don't think that will happen.   What I think is more likely is that he could end up in a role sort of like Darren Sproles in his prime.  Not exactly like Sproles, but a similar role, a guy who isn't the primary guy, but he's a third-down back+.   I think he could be a guy who sees 30-40% of offensive snaps, a guy who in some ways is more dangerous than the actual starter.   Being as impactful as Sproles is his other true upside.  

 

 

[Dr.Sack]

We are going to need a lot of these types of runs from guys not #17. 

[Richard Noggin]

I like Moss as a compliment to the other two RBs. Good contact balance, runs behind his pads, solid in the passing game, and has always been well suited to a zone running scheme. He makes perfect sense as the 3rd RB here this year, and possibly #2 next year (behind Cook). 

[Turk71]

I think a lot of people are underestimating Moss' potential when healthy.

This is from before the 2020 draft.

 

Utah's Zack Moss forced a missed tackle on 38% of rushes in 2019. Most among any RB with 150+ carries in a season since 2014.

  On top of over 1,400 rushing yards and 15 tds in his final collegiate season, Moss also had 28 receptions for 388 receiving yards and two touchdowns. 

He also led his draft class in yards after contact. 

 

I won't be surprised if he breaks out.

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

He's fringe-NFL, sticking around because of his Draft stock. 

 

McDermott loves these guys because of their "physicality" - Tolbert, Ivory, Gore, but they're slow as molasses. 

[transplantbillsfan]

On 8/17/2022 at 4:02 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He went where the play was supposed to go until the LB blew up the lead blocker.

 

Blame the lead blocker for not getting out fast enough. Blame the LB for making a good play. But Moss was doing exactly what he was supposed to do, and then made a good, very quick change.

 

What else is he supposed to do? Assume before the snap that his lead blocker is going to get blown up and run the wrong direction from the snap?

 

Guess I'm in the severe minority.

 

I don't have a problem with Moss's speed or power... well... actually I think his power is overrated. As I type this I would say Moss is faster than I thought he'd be coming out of college but with less power.

 

Ya know who he actually reminds me of? Devin Singletary with poorer vision... which was basically what I was getting at on that play. I don't think Singletary runs into the back of Morris like that and he makes the same play. And this isn't me touting Singletary as Barry Sanders... if anything for me it's just more of an indictment of Moss considering Singletary is, at best, an average RB.

On 8/17/2022 at 4:11 AM, The Jokeman said:

Are we sure Moss makes it? As Raheem Blackshear showed he can pound it from inside the 20 and also can be a return man on ST so brings more to the table. I wouldn't be shocked if we see Moss traded for a draft pick to a RB needy team. 

 

I would prefer Blackshear as RB3 myself

[transplantbillsfan]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:29 AM, Son of a K-Gun said:

More Moss power running from early last year…this is the player that needs to show up.

 

 

 

I've seen Singletary do similar things in the running game.

Again... I guess he's fine as RB3, but I just think he's a poor man's Devin Singletary. And if he has any value in the trade market, why not exploit it?

[hemma]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

I would prefer Blackshear as RB3 myself

 

One injury and he’s there.  

3 uninjured RBs for a full year would be a surprise.  If at that point he proves his worth, he may stick.

[Warriorspikes51]

I thought he looked fairly slow in the open field? 

Hopefully James Cook is 90% of his brother 

I'd trade Moss for a 4th if any team is desperate for an RB

Something to ponder.....the Bills supposedly offered a trade for Christian McCaffrey and Panthers said no.

If Carolina is tanking by the deadline.....we'd have to get creative but this team adding OBJ and McCaffrey for the stretch run would be quite something

Moss, a 2nd and a 5th should be enough.  your RB's next year would be 

McCaffrey
Cook

Blackshear

Edited August 19, 2022 by Warriorspikes51

[Straight Hucklebuck]

31 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I thought he looked fairly slow in the open field? 

Hopefully James Cook is 90% of his brother 

I'd trade Moss for a 4th if any team is desperate for an RB

Something to ponder.....the Bills supposedly offered a trade for Christian McCaffrey and Panthers said no.

If Carolina is tanking by the deadline.....we'd have to get creative but this team adding OBJ and McCaffrey for the stretch run would be quite something

Moss, a 2nd and a 5th should be enough.  your RB's next year would be 

McCaffrey
Cook

Blackshear

I'm interested to see what the Bills envision Cook as. 

 

They've tried to cheaply address a pass-catching running back with veterans - TJ Yeldon, Matt Breida, signing JD McKissic. 

 

But there is no evidence that pass-catching RB's are a big part of the Bills offense. And why would I want that? Josh Allen dumping down more? 

 

I don't want the 2019 Carolina Panthers, where Christian McCaffery was their offense. Catching 116 passes, running the ball 287 times. It's the Saints dilemma now with Alvin Kamara dominating touches. It's 2007-2008 Buffalo Bills pop-gun football. 

 

The Bills got better immediately last year when they benched Moss, and picked the correct RB (Singletary) and fed him the ball when the chose to run. 

[CountDorkula]

17 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'm interested to see what the Bills envision Cook as. 

 

They've tried to cheaply address a pass-catching running back with veterans - TJ Yeldon, Matt Breida, signing JD McKissic. 

 

But there is no evidence that pass-catching RB's are a big part of the Bills offense. And why would I want that? Josh Allen dumping down more? 

 

I don't want the 2019 Carolina Panthers, where Christian McCaffery was their offense. Catching 116 passes, running the ball 287 times. It's the Saints dilemma now with Alvin Kamara dominating touches. It's 2007-2008 Buffalo Bills pop-gun football. 

 

The Bills got better immediately last year when they benched Moss, and picked the correct RB (Singletary) and fed him the ball when the chose to run. 

 

I don't care whos getting the ball. If Cook turns into McCaffery the Bills are in the Superbowl. 

[T master]

He's allowed 2 per year 1 in the preseason & 1 in the real season .

 

I think i would rather have Blackshear over Moss since seeing what he did in that last game . If he has another game like that i would really rather him than Moss !! 

Edited August 19, 2022 by T master

[ddaryl]

42 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'm interested to see what the Bills envision Cook as. 

 

They've tried to cheaply address a pass-catching running back with veterans - TJ Yeldon, Matt Breida, signing JD McKissic. 

 

But there is no evidence that pass-catching RB's are a big part of the Bills offense. And why would I want that? Josh Allen dumping down more? 

 

I don't want the 2019 Carolina Panthers, where Christian McCaffery was their offense. Catching 116 passes, running the ball 287 times. It's the Saints dilemma now with Alvin Kamara dominating touches. It's 2007-2008 Buffalo Bills pop-gun football. 

 

The Bills got better immediately last year when they benched Moss, and picked the correct RB (Singletary) and fed him the ball when the chose to run. 

With our WRs running intermendiate and deep routes the underneath stuff is ripe for YAC from the RB position and the slot. 

That means teams will quickly try to cheat up to stop that if its working well which means the intermediate/deep routes should have more room.

Its a balance and I don't think with Josh we ever have to worry about relying on the underneath stuff, its just a real nice safety valve. With the dynamics of JA and the offence I see it creating more trouble for opposing Ds

Edited August 19, 2022 by ddaryl

[Warriorspikes51]

36 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'm interested to see what the Bills envision Cook as. 

 

They've tried to cheaply address a pass-catching running back with veterans - TJ Yeldon, Matt Breida, signing JD McKissic. 

 

But there is no evidence that pass-catching RB's are a big part of the Bills offense. And why would I want that? Josh Allen dumping down more? 

 

I don't want the 2019 Carolina Panthers, where Christian McCaffery was their offense. Catching 116 passes, running the ball 287 times. It's the Saints dilemma now with Alvin Kamara dominating touches. It's 2007-2008 Buffalo Bills pop-gun football. 

 

The Bills got better immediately last year when they benched Moss, and picked the correct RB (Singletary) and fed him the ball when the chose to run. 

 

I certainly don't either (although adding him via trade would be quite interesting)

There are a lot of advantageous matchups if Cook can be motioned out wide/run routes like he did in college.  Also Allen dumping off to Cook on screens could really add to our YAC and it also eliminates Josh taking extra punishment while running. 

I know Josh's legs are a huge asset....but ideally we could limit that at least somewhat and then catch opposing defenses in the playoffs by UNLEASHING him to run 15 times per game 

[muppy]

2 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

I certainly don't either (although adding him via trade would be quite interesting)

There are a lot of advantageous matchups if Cook can be motioned out wide/run routes like he did in college.  Also Allen dumping off to Cook on screens could really add to our YAC and it also eliminates Josh taking extra punishment while running. 

I know Josh's legs are a huge asset....but ideally we could limit that at least somewhat and then catch opposing defenses in the playoffs by UNLEASHING him to run 15 times per game 

I think that Josh Allen is the ultimate football player. Not just QB. Do you remember when #12 was said to have the arm of an NFL QB but the mentality of a linebacker? Josh Allen to me is a Complete football player who will do whatever he can to WIN. Period. He has the competitiveness and both physical and mental gifts to make things happen with his legs and especially his arm and choosing which play will work best. He has benefit of all the weapons present on this team. It gives me goosebumps

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

29 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

 

I don't care whos getting the ball. If Cook turns into McCaffery the Bills are in the Superbowl. 

Not if he's touching the ball 400 times a year. 

[Warriorspikes51]

Moss is a good pass blocker, I do think his power/toughness is overrated. He just doesn't excite me.  I guess he was decent as a receiving back.  Hopefully he proves me wrong when given the chance

Singletary was good down the stretch last year he was playing like a top 10 back for half a dozen games. 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Warriorspikes51

[ddaryl]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Not if he's touching the ball 400 times a year. 

that's not the Bills M.O. with JA as QB... So no worries there. The Ball will be well distibuted. To many weapons on O.

[clayboy54]

1 hour ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I'd trade Moss for a 4th if any team is desperate for an RB

Desperate and RB do not belong in any sentence in today's NFL.

[CountDorkula]

10 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Moss is a good pass blocker, I do think his power/toughness is overrated. He just doesn't excite me.  I guess he was decent as a receiving back.  Hopefully he proves me wrong when given the chance

Singletary was good down the stretch last year he was playing like a top 10 back for half a dozen games. 

 

Agree on Moss. he's a slow average dime a dozen back.

 

Singletary is okay, like his elusiveness, wish he had more speed/acceleration to his game.

 

Good runs turn into great runs with speed.

 

I'm hoping Cook takes the starting job over.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Christian Wade!!!

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I'm interested to see what the Bills envision Cook as. 

 

They've tried to cheaply address a pass-catching running back with veterans - TJ Yeldon, Matt Breida, signing JD McKissic. 

 

But there is no evidence that pass-catching RB's are a big part of the Bills offense. And why would I want that? Josh Allen dumping down more? 

 

I don't want the 2019 Carolina Panthers, where Christian McCaffery was their offense. Catching 116 passes, running the ball 287 times. It's the Saints dilemma now with Alvin Kamara dominating touches. It's 2007-2008 Buffalo Bills pop-gun football. 

 

The Bills got better immediately last year when they benched Moss, and picked the correct RB (Singletary) and fed him the ball when the chose to run. 

Under Daboll, I think Dorsey is tweaking the offense so that we could see more two TE sets and running backs will get more passes seen their way too. Just a feeling, I could be completely wrong. 

[Ramza86]

To me the only thing that matters is that we do not continue to do this committee stuff.

 

We were at our best when Singletary took the lions share of the snaps.

 

Learn from the mistakes of last year. We were switching guys in and out way too often and the run game looked terrible.

[ColoradoBills]

26 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

To me the only thing that matters is that we do not continue to do this committee stuff.

 

We were at our best when Singletary took the lions share of the snaps.

 

Learn from the mistakes of last year. We were switching guys in and out way too often and the run game looked terrible.

 

A lot of RBs need enough runs to get in the groove.

I do think Moss makes the team again, but he will be RB3.  With Gilliam and Jones dressing every week and if history is any indication,

Moss will not be dressing for a lot of games.

I have no idea what if any his role will be next season.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 hours ago, T master said:

He's allowed 2 per year 1 in the preseason & 1 in the real season .

 

I think i would rather have Blackshear over Moss since seeing what he did in that last game . If he has another game like that i would really rather him than Moss !! 

 

6 carries for 11 yards?  He seems to be more of a cook type than power back like Moss.  He'll make the PS as well.   

 

Can he block?  

 

2 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Moss is a good pass blocker, I do think his power/toughness is overrated. He just doesn't excite me.  I guess he was decent as a receiving back.  Hopefully he proves me wrong when given the chance

Singletary was good down the stretch last year he was playing like a top 10 back for half a dozen games. 

 

 

Moss doesn't seem to use his power for extra yards - its just... punishment.  He runs right at you with the ball secure against his chest. He can block, and he sort of seems to enjoy inflicting punishment.

 

Singletary got a bunch of TDs and a single 100 yard game.  He also fumbles considerably more than Moss.  

[TBBills]

2 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Under Daboll, I think Dorsey is tweaking the offense so that we could see more two TE sets and running backs will get more passes seen their way too. Just a feeling, I could be completely wrong. 

Seems like they gave up the 2 TE set pretty quick when Howard showed he isn't ever getting back to his normal self... but I don't know maybe it's already in and practiced. I just haven't heard much of anything about them running 2 TE sets since week 1 of TC.

 

Does anyone know if they did it in the Red vs Blue practice game?

Edited August 19, 2022 by TBBills

[ColoradoBills]

14 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

6 carries for 11 yards?  He seems to be more of a cook type than power back like Moss.  He'll make the PS as well.   

 

Can he block?  

 

Well to be fair he was rushing behind a pretty bad OL.

He showed what he could do in the passing game with 4 receptions and 60 yards.

Taking 2 KRs and 1 PR (16 years) wasn't bad either.

I want to see more.  He is no doubt PS bound but may have a chance to make the main roster next year.

[SCBills]

3 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Under Daboll, I think Dorsey is tweaking the offense so that we could see more two TE sets and running backs will get more passes seen their way too. Just a feeling, I could be completely wrong. 

People say that, but we need two legit TE’s to do that. 

We have one. 
 

Howard is probably fine as a TE2 as depth, but I’m not seeing him convincing anyone - yet - that we need to be forcing 12 personnel just because Dorsey did it 100 years ago at the U. 

[ColoradoBills]

13 minutes ago, SCBills said:

People say that, but we need two legit TE’s to do that. 

We have one. 
 

Howard is probably fine as a TE2 as depth, but I’m not seeing him convincing anyone - yet - that we need to be forcing 12 personnel just because Dorsey did it 100 years ago at the U. 

 

All true.  One thing I haven't heard anything about is how is Howard doing in blocking.  Something I will keep an eye on tomorrow.

If he is used in that role, he won't run out a pass pattern at the snap.  He will stay in and block and then leak out sometimes for a catch.

I can live with that this year as long as he is blocking well and Knox keeps his current role.

 

The negative of all this is if Knox is out for any length of time Howard will not be effective in Dawson's role.

[1ManRaid]

I'm amazed he gained 5 yards behind a 2nd/3rd string O-line against starters, nevermind 27 yards.  Give him a break.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Singletary is a much better football player. I don’t need to see Moss taking snaps from Singletary. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 hours ago, Ramza86 said:

To me the only thing that matters is that we do not continue to do this committee stuff.

 

We were at our best when Singletary took the lions share of the snaps.

 

Learn from the mistakes of last year. We were switching guys in and out way too often and the run game looked terrible.

 

Causation does not mean Correlation.  I feel as though the offensive line is at the crux of a lot of the run game issues.  

 

We started the year with 

Dawkins (missed camp with bad covid)

Feliciano (lost weight, but somehow looked more out of shape than ever before)

Morse 

Ford (don't need to get into it)

Williams 

 

Williams is too slow to get outside on outside zone rushes to the right, and too sloppy to prevent backside backers from cleaning up the play.  Brown was put in because they felt like he could open up the running game. 

 

Williams shifted to RG because Ford is bad.  Brown missed some time at T so they shifted Boettger in at Guard.  Ford shuffled back in when Feliciano got hurt (that lovely Jax game).  There was some covid related shifting for another week, and then Boettger was injured and they inserted Bates.  Feliciano returned from IR and didn't have a spot as bates had out performed him, and Williams is a much better pass blocker.

 

That's a lot of shuffling.  You also have to look at how many snaps Ford and Feliciano got - for how insanely inept both played.

 

With Boettger on the PUP to start the year, the starting 5 is pretty set.  Quessenberry and Doyle appear to be the next men up after that, but Boettger returning rounds out the depth a lot better.  Hopefully the Saffold/Kromer additions, healthy dawkins, and healthy Brown will make this unit improved.

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Well to be fair he was rushing behind a pretty bad OL.

He showed what he could do in the passing game with 4 receptions and 60 yards.

Taking 2 KRs and 1 PR (16 years) wasn't bad either.

I want to see more.  He is no doubt PS bound but may have a chance to make the main roster next year.

 

The only issue i see is that is pretty similar to Cooks skillset.  Moss brings a different skillset as a plus blocker, wrecking ball style runner, with good ball security.  

 

Cook is the shifty pass catcher type who will likely grow into other roles over the course of the year.  Singletary is a pretty well rounded back, lacks some top end speed but hes quicker and tougher than any combine would say.  Taiwan jones is the special teams guy who can play in a pinch.  

 

I don't think Moss would be active every week unless there are injuries, but on certain weeks i would think it'd make sense to carry him.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

The only issue i see is that is pretty similar to Cooks skillset.  Moss brings a different skillset as a plus blocker, wrecking ball style runner, with good ball security.

 

True but I see no problem if it works out that way.  Moss is on the team this year and maybe next.

Cook is hopefully taking over Singletary's role next season so having Cook, Moss and Blackshear would not be a problem with me.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

10 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

True but I see no problem if it works out that way.  Moss is on the team this year and maybe next.

Cook is hopefully taking over Singletary's role next season so having Cook, Moss and Blackshear would not be a problem with me.

 

Its a tough market for running backs out there, DS will probably make less than he thinks.  

 

Barkley

Hunt

Jacobs

Montgomery

Sanders

Williams

Harris

Pollard

Plus the draft. Plus a bunch of guys i didn't list.  

 

This past year 4 guys got more than 5M AAV - Patterson, Edmonds, Fournette, Penny.  6 players got more than 1 year - Fournette, Edmonds, Patterson, Mckissic, Bolden, Ogunbowale.  

 

Obviously dependent on Cook's development and skills, but if you could bring DS back for something like 4-6M then I don't think it'd be bad.  Still keeps the total RB cap number in the middle of the pack, keeps continuity and draft picks.  Obviously depends how he performs this year too (do we want him back?)

[ColoradoBills]

14 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

Its a tough market for running backs out there, DS will probably make less than he thinks.  

 

Barkley

Hunt

Jacobs

Montgomery

Sanders

Williams

Harris

Pollard

Plus the draft. Plus a bunch of guys i didn't list.  

 

This past year 4 guys got more than 5M AAV - Patterson, Edmonds, Fournette, Penny.  6 players got more than 1 year - Fournette, Edmonds, Patterson, Mckissic, Bolden, Ogunbowale.  

 

Obviously dependent on Cook's development and skills, but if you could bring DS back for something like 4-6M then I don't think it'd be bad.  Still keeps the total RB cap number in the middle of the pack, keeps continuity and draft picks.  Obviously depends how he performs this year too (do we want him back?)

 

All true.  What seems a little weird about the typical "above average" RB is they move on from the team they had a lot of success with to

another team and generally their play goes down.   Often times they get cut and don't make the big money due at the end of their 2nd contract.

Then they are out there signing with a third team often for way less.

 

I get the elite guys going for the huge paydays, but I often wonder if the better than average guys would do better in the long run (money/performance wise)

just staying with their drafted teams for longer periods of time.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

8 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

All true.  What seems a little weird about the typical "above average" RB is they move on from the team they had a lot of success with to

another team and generally their play goes down.   Often times they get cut and don't make the big money due at the end of their 2nd contract.

Then they are out there signing with a third team often for way less.

 

I get the elite guys going for the huge paydays, but I often wonder if the better than average guys would do better in the long run (money/performance wise)

just staying with their drafted teams for longer periods of time.

 

 

 

If only the entire system wasn't stacked against this kind of thinking...

 

Then again, it's nearly impossible to argue against players absolutely maximizing their money as soon as possible, without exception. In such a dangerous, short-lived career, especially for RBs who are devalued and prone to even shorter careers, it's just smart to get the most lucrative possible 2nd NFL contract.