Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[MRW]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 
Even if he can prove that the Giants had actually hired Daboll before his interview (the Giants credibly assert he cannot), there is no basis for a lawsuit if you show up for a job you know has already been taken 

 

Flores should've just kept quiet and tried the George Costanza approach.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

I'm sorry, I'm 100% all in that the NFL has some hiring practices that need to change. 

 

But Flores just needs to cash a Reality Check.  He just jumped the Shark

 

1) Belichick gave information about Daboll's tenure as his employee...that's called a reference, Flores.  We all get them (good or bad) from our current and former employers, and yes, sometimes they influence whether or not we get the job.

2) Belichick undoubtedly did the same for Flores when he was a relatively inexperienced Safeties and LB coach for NE, with NO coordinator experience at any level....and yet got hired by Miami and received the opportunity to coach for 3 years

 

So when Belichick influenced the hiring decision on Flores behalf (which had to have been a strong factor, given his lack of coordinator experience), it's great....but if he does it for Daboll (where it was probably a slight factor, given that Daboll just worked 4 years as OC for another team and went to the playoffs 3 years in a row and contended for the AFCCG), now it's undue influence and it's bad?

 

SMDH.

 

 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Belichick on the ol’ texting machine be like…

[dave mcbride]

Flores is doing some really strange things now. Once you file a suit, don’t issue charges in the media that you know probably can’t proven (re Belichick *probably* advising the Giants to look favorably upon Daboll—which is not problematic anyway). Apparently he approached the law firm he’s using rather than the reverse, but that firm’s filing ain’t doing him any favors. That filing is a throw it all against the wall and see what sticks approach. 
 

 

3 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Belichick on the ol’ texting machine be like…

He took down Jersey/AFC in epic fashion in 2000, and now he’s taking out Jersey/NFC in epic fashion. Rabid Boston fans gotta love it. Who’s next? The Yankees? The Knicks?

[muppy]

7 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Belichick on the ol’ texting machine be like…

BOOOOO my voice FTB (for the bunny)

 

lol-m

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sorry, I'm 100% all in that the NFL has some hiring practices that need to change.

 

But Flores just needs to cash a Reality Check.

Hapless the courts will have their say I want to hear it in court. all this info is distracting from what truths are to be told...under the penalty of perjury.

 

 

[Warcodered]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm sorry, I'm 100% all in that the NFL has some hiring practices that need to change. 

 

But Flores just needs to cash a Reality Check.  He just jumped the Shark

 

1) Belichick gave information about Daboll's tenure as his employee...that's called a reference, Flores.  We all get them (good or bad) from our current and former employers, and yes, sometimes they influence whether or not we get the job.

2) Belichick undoubtedly did the same for Flores when he was a relatively inexperienced Safeties and LB coach for NE, with NO coordinator experience at any level....and yet got hired by Miami and received the opportunity to coach for 3 years

 

So when Belichick influenced the hiring decision on Flores behalf (which had to have been a strong factor, given his lack of coordinator experience), it's great....but if he does it for Daboll (where it was probably a slight factor, given that Daboll just worked 4 years as OC for another team and went to the playoffs 3 years in a row and contended for the AFCCG), now it's undue influence and it's bad?

 

SMDH.

 

 

It kind of feels like Florez has maybe a smoking gun on Ross and is using it to gloss over that he might not have much of a leg to stand for this Giants thing. I mean Belichick was probably a reference for both of them for this job. What's the idea that he told them if he was them he'd pick Daboll over Florez? Because I mean maybe he did, and he would have been completely within his rights to do so.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 Even if he can prove that the Giants had actually hired Daboll before his interview (the Giants credibly assert he cannot), there is no basis for a lawsuit if you show up for a job you know has already been taken 

 

By league rules, a minority not currently employed by the club had to be interviewed in person before a hiring decision is made.  That would be Flores and Frazier.

 

I think we're both in Dunning-Kruger land at understanding the legal picture here, but it seems like a good bet that employers have to follow the procedures they establish to promote fair hiring practices, or it's no bueno.

 

So hiring decision made after Thursday, when Flores (the first external minority candidate) interviewed = complies with NFL (employer) procedure

Hiring decision made Monday, before external minority interview = does not comply with NFL procedure

 

The thing is, the hiring decision isn't made when someone tells Belichick "Bill, thanks for your input...it sounds as though Daboll's our guy". 

 

The hiring decision is made when all the decision makers agree to actually extend an offer to Daboll.  And even then, the job is still open until Daboll says "yes" and signs the contract.

[Mr. WEO]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

By league rules, a minority not currently employed by the club had to be interviewed in person before a hiring decision is made.  That would be Flores and Frazier.

 

I think we're both in Dunning-Kruger land at understanding the legal picture here, but it seems like a good bet that employers have to follow the procedures they establish to promote fair hiring practices, or it's no bueno.

 

So hiring decision made after Thursday, when Flores (the first external minority candidate) interviewed = complies with NFL (employer) procedure

Hiring decision made Monday, before external minority interview = does not comply with NFL procedure

 

The thing is, the hiring decision isn't made when someone tells Belichick "Bill, thanks for your input...it sounds as though Daboll's our guy". 

 

The hiring decision is made when all the decision makers agree to actually extend an offer to Daboll.  And even then, the job is still open until Daboll says "yes" and signs the contract.

Giants seem confident they can be prove Daboll was decided upon after Flores interview.  How does team Flores overcome this?

[Doc]

Time to put the cards out on the table and see who's got what.  I'm just glad that the Bills aren't involved in this shitshow.

[hondo in seattle]

Flores is suggesting that Belichick influenced the Giants to choose Daboll over him.  

 

Why would BB do this?   PFT says it was to hurt a division rival.  

 

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/03/brian-flores-claims-giants-decision-to-hire-brian-daboll-was-made-with-bill-belichicks-influence/

[Doc]

Well the joke's on him.  The Bills influenced the Raiders to hire McDaniels.  So there.

[BillsFan4]

Watch our offense be even better with Dorsey and Brady... 

 

Karma’s a *****.  😂

[mikemac2001]

We have Josh Allen 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, HamSandwhich said:

So, the league is systemically racist then? Or at least owners maybe? That seems your argument from what you’re saying. “Baked into” are words used in that parlance. I don’t think so myself but am trying to understand your point. 

 

I have no idea what "that parlance" means in this context.

 

Let's start here, and maybe we can at least see where we disagree.

1)  57.5% of NFL players are African American, 9.4% identify as "two or more races, and 24.9% identify as white  (source: Statista)

2) According to this source, 35-40% of assistant coaches are black

3) Last year, only 3/32 head coaches were black (9%) and now 1/32 (3%)

 

So of the relevant population - those who know the most about playing and coaching American football - more than half of the players are black, more than 1/3 of the overall coaching population is black, but 3-9% of the top level HC are black.

 

I don't think you have to be a stats genius to realize that something non-random, something systematic, is probably at work there.

 

But what?  Is it that owners are sitting around saying "we don't want to hire black guys"?

 

I personally and strongly doubt that.  I could be wrong, but I think the overwhelming majority of folks aren't prejudiced in their thinking, and that would include NFL owners and execs (some are - we've seen some flashes of it here in these threads).  I think if you hooked them up to a lie detector test and asked them "do you believe a black coach can have all the qualities needed to coach an NFL team to a Superbowl win?" they would say "yes" and the needle wouldn't waver.  (Maybe 1 or 2 would).

 

The challenge is that unlike the athletic qualities and demonstrated in-game abilities that showcase a player's talent, the qualities that make a winning HC are a lot more subjective, and harder to measure.  A partial list could be made - inspires people to follow him, able to hold people accountable, very well organized, great football mind, able to lead and coordinate the activities of a group of people, great communicator, able to work well with peers (like the GM and FO), etcetera.  How important each of those qualities are, and how well a specific individual exemplifies them would probably be seen as variable. 

 

So it becomes a subjective process, and to some extent governed by "gut feeling" - Russ Brandon/Doug Whaley's "you'll just KNOW" advice to the Pegulas - rather than measurables.  The GM wants a guy he feels comfortable with.  The Owner doesn't want to look like a fool, so he doesn't want to hire someone who will crash-n-burn (unless he wants the team to tank).

 

So then you ask, who are these people who elicit the feeling of "he's right, I just KNOW" or "I can really work with this guy" (from the GM) or "I'm confident this won't be a mistake" (from the owner)?  They are typically going to be either people who have been head coaches with some success - the "coaching carousel" that gives fired head coaches like Gase or Rivera a fast track to a second chance - or people who have connections with and "click" with the hiring team so that they feel comfortable.

 

And who are those people?  Typically, they're people who we "click" with, or feel akin to - because they are "like us" in some way.

 

It's not that the hiring team is consciously prejudiced.  It's that when you have a subjective process, your unconscious beliefs and assumptions become part of the process - get "baked in".

 

OK, that's my best effort to reprise.  Not saying the owners are racists or making consciously racist decisions.  Saying that the results indicate some form of biased decision making is almost certainly at work.  Using my own experience as a hiring manager/interviewer and a bystander to higher-level decisions to give understanding of how bias gets into decisions without conscious intent.

[Doc]

Belicheat had the far greater loss.

[BruceVilanch]

Well we now have a Brady, not THE Brady, but A Brady.

[Mikey]

Hmmmmmmmmm........perhaps Bill Belichek just pro actively congratulated the person he as well as most other people took to be the most qualified candidate 🤷‍♂️

 

Perhaps the text was based on Bill probably knowing how Mara works 🤷‍♂️

 

Unless Bill Belichek states along the lines of "Mr. Mara told me directly who he was hiring before the process was done" or words to that effect than this will be. a non issue from Bill Belichek. 

What Bill Belichek should immediately do is never have anything to do with Brian Flores ever again. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

Flores is suggesting that Belichick influenced the Giants to choose Daboll over him.  

 

Why would BB do this?   PFT says it was to hurt a division rival.  

 

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/03/brian-flores-claims-giants-decision-to-hire-brian-daboll-was-made-with-bill-belichicks-influence/

 

Lol Flores is looking desperate now.

 

Billy is gonna find out that we are gonna roll his patriots from here on out because we have all and it wont matter who the OC is, just like Brady did for him.

 

 

[Bangarang]

The more Flores speaks the more his lawsuit sounds ridiculous

[billsbackto81]

5 minutes ago, mikemac2001 said:

We have Josh Allen 

Exactly. Last I checked Daboll doesn't throw the ball or run over defenders.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, FarrellsFinest said:

How can anyone say he was given a fair shot if the decion was made before he even walk into the building? I get it you cant tell people who to hire. But this rule was created to give people of color a shot because they didnt even get THAT before. The only time they get hired is when the team is tanking. 

 

If, in fact, a hiring decision was reached before he walked into the building, he was not given a fair shot.

 

But the Giants contest that.  And talking to former employers/seeking their input does not constitute undue influence.  Forming an impression of who the lead candidate is based on initial interviews/recommendations does not constitute a hiring decision either.

 

If the former employer gains an impression about the status of the process and procedes to share it around, that also does not constitute a hiring decision.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

The more Flores speaks the more his lawsuit sounds ridiculous

 

Thats the feeling im getting.

 

He got hired as a HC, guess what your team owner isnt racist, he fired you because you wouldn't follow orders. then says the Broncos interview was a sham, all the other guys who interviewed didn't get the job either, but by doing the interview you probably got good reviews that led to the dolphins job.

 

Bottom line Flores, if you tanked and tried to get Brady as your QB you'd still be the dolphins coach, period.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

Thats the feeling im getting.

 

He got hired as a HC, guess what your team owner isnt racist, he fired you because you wouldn't follow orders. then says the Broncos interview was a sham, all the other guys who interviewed didn't get the job either, but by doing the interview you probably got good reviews that led to the dolphins job.

 

Bottom line Flores, if you tanked and tried to get Brady as your QB you'd still be the dolphins coach, period.

 

@Nextmanup  😂😂

 

 

[QLBillsFan]

50 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

The more Flores speaks the more his lawsuit sounds ridiculous

He lost me at “Plantation” backstabbing BB per Florio that he had a hand in BD getting the Giants over him. He had both of them in his employ for many years. Flores was never a DC .. position coach. Perhaps Flores should be more appreciative with BB since I’m sure he supported his Phins hire.

 

Seems since he pushed for Judge last hire who knows. But Flores looking all about Flores.

[FarrellsFinest]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If, in fact, a hiring decision was reached before he walked into the building, he was not given a fair shot.

 

But the Giants contest that.  And talking to former employers/seeking their input does not constitute undue influence.  Forming an impression of who the lead candidate is based on initial interviews/recommendations does not constitute a hiring decision either.

 

If the former employer gains an impression about the status of the process and procedes to share it around, that also does not constitute a hiring decision.

Apparently the bills knew it too according to the text. At the end of the day there is no fixing it. You have the right to hire whoever you want. Reguardless of qualifacation. There needs to be more black owners. When jayz was trying to become a owner people called him a sellout!? So it is what it is. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, FarrellsFinest said:

Apparently the bills knew it too according to the text. At the end of the day there is no fixing it. You have the right to hire whoever you want. Reguardless of qualifacation. There needs to be more black owners. When jayz was trying to become a owner people called him a sellout!? So it is what it is. 

 

I think that's a very stretched interpretation of the texts in Flores lawsuit, and just because Belichick texts it doesn't make it true.

 

Black owners, great.  Flores hiring practices for his own coordinators might not have been transparent and included minorities, so there's that.

 

I think the NFL should be sponsoring graduate assistantships in college for Black players who want to start coaching and also raise the pay for the entry-tier of assistant coaches.  My understanding is the lowest rung don't pay enough to support a family but work them too hard to have a 2nd job.  Pay them so that anyone with an interest can take the job and make it, and you'll wind up with a more assistant coaches to choose from.

 

My second dumb idea would be work to create opportunities for the coaching assistants and management to interact off season when there's more time.  I believe like "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" said, "some people are apples...some are pears..underneath it all, we're all fruit!" and if people get together enough to find that commonality, then it's easier to evaluate them fairly.

[FarrellsFinest]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that's a very stretched interpretation of the texts in Flores lawsuit

I dont. Its plane as day. But who cares there is no way to change that. 

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

Flores is suggesting that Belichick influenced the Giants to choose Daboll over him.  

 

Why would BB do this?   PFT says it was to hurt a division rival.  

 

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/03/brian-flores-claims-giants-decision-to-hire-brian-daboll-was-made-with-bill-belichicks-influence/

Give me a break.  The writing was on the wall for Daboll as the front runner for head coach when the Giants hired Schoen as the GM.

[stuvian]

By filing this lawsuit while he is still a candidate he is effectively cancelling himself for jobs that are unfilled thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophecy

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If, in fact, a hiring decision was reached before he walked into the building, he was not given a fair shot.

 

But the Giants contest that.  And talking to former employers/seeking their input does not constitute undue influence.  Forming an impression of who the lead candidate is based on initial interviews/recommendations does not constitute a hiring decision either.

 

If the former employer gains an impression about the status of the process and procedes to share it around, that also does not constitute a hiring decision.

 

I hired (and fired) countless people over a couple decades. There were times where I knew who was available, and I knew who I wanted. I would interview others and go through the process, but I still wanted who I wanted. There is nothing wrong with that. 

 

I’m sure Daboll was close to a done deal when they were interviewing for the GM position. It was a package deal in some respects. Going through the process does not mean it was racist. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, FarrellsFinest said:

I dont. Its plane as day. But who cares there is no way to change that. 

 

OK, we disagree then.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, Augie said:

I hired (and fired) countless people over a couple decades. There were times where I knew who was available, and I knew who I wanted. I would interview others and go through the process, but I still wanted who I wanted. There is nothing wrong with that. 

 

I’m sure Daboll was close to a done deal when they were interviewing for the GM position. It was a package deal in some respects. Going through the process does not mean it was racist.

 

It doesn't mean the process is racist by intent.  But when there are reportedly ~40% black assistant coaches and only 3-9% black HC, something about the process is leading to a racially biased hiring result.   And the Rooney Rule, while well intentioned with the current changes, ain't doing ***** to create change.

 

My take. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It doesn't mean the process is racist by any intent.  But when there are reportedly ~40% black assistant coaches and only 3-9% black HC, something about the process is leading to a racially biased hiring result.   And the Rooney Rule, while well intentioned with the current changes, ain't doing ***** to create change.

 

My take. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

 

Please don’t get me wrong. Improvement is needed. I don’t have all the answers, but it should be better. Unfortunately, it’s not going to happen as quickly as we would like to see. That’s just how it works. 

 

I have to wonder, since college seems to lead the NFL in some strange ways, are they seeing any more progress there? I don’t follow college ball enough to have any idea, but it does make me curious. 

[BuffaloBills1998]

 

So in English he doesn’t have proof, wow if this is all Flores has then he’s screwed. 

[TheFunPolice]

If you haven't read Hue Jackson's latest contributions you really need to...

 

Is this for real? 

Edited February 4, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[BuffaloBills1998]

4 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

If you haven't read Hue Jackson's latest contributions you really need to...

 

Is this for real? 

Unless Jackson has concrete proof then hear say isn’t going to cut it. Any ####### can make up ***** and get a following and screen time

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

 

So in English he doesn’t have proof, wow if this is all Flores has then he’s screwed. 

 

In English, I don't think it means what you think it means.  I think the translation is more like "I'll see you in court with my proof, Beeyotches"

 

Although there's a lot of space in the word "aware"

5 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

If you haven't read Hue Jackson's latest contributions you really need to...

 

Is this for real? 

 

Linky?

[BuffaloBills1998]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In English, I don't think it means what you think it means.  I think the translation is more like "I'll see you in court with my proof, Beeyotches"

 

Although there's a lot of space in the word "aware"

 

Linky?

[TBBills]

Reading this thread be like...

 

 

 

[Billznut]

11 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

I wouldn’t mind Kraft offering him the chair under BB with the knowledge he will take over when he retires..  I liked Flores I think he is a good coach who went to a crap organization from owner on down.

With the way Flores threw Belichick under the bus in the last day or so with his additional comments, I’d be highly shocked if Flores is ever near Belichick or Patriotsland again.