Evaluation of Guards at OBD

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Morse is actually playing pretty well for us.....totally agree on Norwell

 

Norwell is making too much. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by The Jokeman

[Augie]

3 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Y’all remember Vlad?!  😬

 “Vlad the Get The QB Impaled”?  That guy? I try not to remember him. Thanks…….  😢 

 

 

.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Augie

[TFBillsfan]

While I believe Spencer Brown has potential, let’s slow our roll. Spencer was a huge liability against the Titans and will need to significantly improve if the Bills are going to reach their ultimate goal. Hopefully the OL stays healthy and continues to get better as the season progresses.

 

Teller would have been solid at OG but Spain was a liability at the time. Sometimes players just need a new start.

 

[Big Blitz]

3 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

 

 

Why would they trade a key piece to protecting the franchise?

9 minutes ago, TFBillsfan said:

While I believe Spencer Brown has potential, let’s slow our roll. Spencer was a huge liability against the Titans and will need to significantly improve if the Bills are going to reach their ultimate goal. Hopefully the OL stays healthy and continues to get better as the season progresses.

 

Teller would have been solid at OG but Spain was a liability at the time. Sometimes players just need a new start.

 

 

 

Or play for the best oline coach in history on a team who's offense runs an offense fit to your skill set - moving people in the run game. 

 

And I still think he's just OK made to look better being surrounded by all pros.  

[The Wiz]

4 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Y’all remember Vlad?!  😬

I was waiting for that name to show up. 

[That's No Moon]

4 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

From what I observe and read around the league, there is somewhat of a widespread shortage of good guard play out there, even amongst starting lineups. Lots of teams have zero good guards and very few have 2 that are above replacement level.

 

 Teller hurts but those things do happen.

Teams devalue guards in the drafting process and take tackles thinking they can make them into guards if necessary which is not always the case. Then they almost always prioritize position flexibility in that position as well. Guards need to be able to play both sides, center, and a tackle position if possible. Oh and they also need to be dirt cheap, cuz we'll they ain't tackles are they. This leads to what the league has in abundance. Guards who are mediocre at many things and not really good at any.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

10 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

I was waiting for that name to show up. 

i have never gotten so many “vomit emoji” responses to any other post I have done. 

[The Jokeman]

12 hours ago, TFBillsfan said:

While I believe Spencer Brown has potential, let’s slow our roll. Spencer was a huge liability against the Titans and will need to significantly improve if the Bills are going to reach their ultimate goal. Hopefully the OL stays healthy and continues to get better as the season progresses.

 

Teller would have been solid at OG but Spain was a liability at the time. Sometimes players just need a new start.

 

Spain had a new start coming here from Tennessee yet after he got a longer contract his play regressed. Teller was in a numbers battle and we kept the wrong one.

Edited October 27, 2021 by The Jokeman

[oldmanfan]

Historically we have two guards in the HOF, Joe D and Billy Shaw.  Not too bad a history.  But I digress; let me address today’s question:

 

1.  In the bye week it is common for teams to scout themselves.  I suspect we’ve noticed our interior can get pushed around a bit.  So either some scheme changes or perhaps moving Ike in may be in the offing.

 

2.  There is not a crystal ball bright enough or clear enough to have foreseen what Teller would become.  We missed that one. It won’t be the last time because all teams do.  Like Ford, I think they’re trying to light a fire under him by sitting him but his time may be limited.

 

3.  Bates is the backup because he can legitimately fill in at C, G, or T if need be.  Better to keep him in reserve for now.  His time might come if or when Morse leaves (perhaps as a cap casualty). 

4.  Spain was a part of culture establishment.  McD and Beane want their culture, Spain I suspect did not buy in the way they wanted.  So bye-bye.  And it’s not like we haven’t done well without him (see also Eichel, Jack).  
 

5.  Our run blocking could stand improvement.  The usual excuse, an excuse with merit, is that guys don’t learn to run block anymore in college.  But given most of our guys are vets, and that Brown might be our best run blocker, that excuse holds little if any water.  Our guys up front simply have to be more physical.  
 

6.  Dawkins is to me showing effects of his Covid infection.  He may not get back to his preCovid level this season, if ever.

[Freddie's Dead]

My brother in law is a guard at the stadium....

[boater]

Quote

Evaluation of Guards at OBD

I tried to break-in to express my displeasure at the depth of cornerback. But they slammed me down at the front door. Exceptional guards.

[JohnNord]

5 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Talk to me about how we have missed horribly on guards.  First Wyatt Teller and now Q. Spain.   He is playing unbelievably well and there is talk of extending him.  Meanwhile our guards are ass.  What exactly is the deal?  Not trying to come off so negative,  but I think it's a good discussion topic.

Your typical Bills message board lamet about a former player playing well.  
 

Spain was playing terrible for the Bills in 2019.  They released him and he didn’t do the much better for Cincy.  The odds of him playing this we’ll probably were not great.  
 

As far as Teller, he wasn’t going to crack the starting lineup and finding a spot for him was going to be tough.  You can argue the Bills should’ve waited another year.  In fact, maybe they should’ve kept Teller over Spain.  But he was a 5th round draft pick, and again, the odds for his success weren’t great.  
 

Both of these examples are players that found themselves in a better situation/system than it is an indictment of evaluation.  

[First Round Bust]

5 hours ago, H2o said:

Spain was alright for us as well........and then he signed a contract extension. Do you not remember what led up to his release last year? Him getting mauled on the interior and almost getting Josh killed? Then his falling out with our coaching staff behind the scenes? Teller? Yeah, we should have held onto him. Spain? Fool's gold. FWIW the OL has been better since moving Williams inside and Brown to RT.  

Spain was re-signed and cut in the same season, but in between didnt Spain beat-out Teller, leading to Teller trade..so we missed twice on the same position and ended-up with dead cap space in addition to the needed replacement

[hondo in seattle]

I can't remember the last time I thought the Bills had a good OLine.  

 

Maybe the 90s?

[klos63]

6 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

Morse is playing very well, why would you think Bates/Mongo would be an improvement?

[Thurman#1]

Brad Butler was really getting good, and then he retired as a young guy to go into politics. Which didn't work out for him.

 

Urbik was decent for a while, a tough guy but not really athletic. Ross Tucker was solid too. Ostroski was OK.

 

But I'm starting to run dry after that.

 

Two or three have been mentioned before. Levitre was good and big Ruben Brown is still underrated, an absolute road grader.

 

The Super Bowl guys of course, Davis and Ritcher. But since those two not a ton.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Thurman#1

[billsfan89]

31 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

Brad Butler was really getting good, and then he retired as a young guy to go into politics. Which didn't work out for him.

 

Urbik was decent for a while, a tough guy but not really athletic. Ross Tucker was solid too. Ostroski was OK.

 

But I'm starting to run dry after that.

 

Two or three have been mentioned before. Levitre was good and big Ruben Brown is still underrated, an absolute road grader.

 

The Super Bowl guys of course, Davis and Ritcher. But since those two not a ton.

 

Richie Incognito was a Pro-Bowl guard every year when he was here and for a three-year stretch (2015 to 2017) he was one of the high-end guards in the league during that three-year run. He wasn't a "homegrown" player but he was a complete reclamation project in 2015. He was suspended by the Dolphins in 2013 after a bullying scandal and then out of the league. In fact InCog was really a key cog in breaking the drought in 2017 and his absence in 2018 really hurt the team. 

 

I wouldn't say he was better than Ruben Brown who was a complete monster for several seasons. But I would say that InCog was definitely the best guard in the drought era surpassing Levitre who was also good but not great.

[billsfan89]

3 hours ago, klos63 said:

Morse is playing very well, why would you think Bates/Mongo would be an improvement?

 

Not sure why people want to push Morse out the door. He is one of the top pass blocking centers in the league and does all the communication and leadership aspects that a center needs to do. I know he is not the best in the running game but he isn't tragic there either. I think some people don't realize the value he brings. 

[WideNine]

21 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

i have never gotten so many “vomit emoji” responses to any other post I have done. 

 

TBD has always been a tough crowd after a loss.

 

You can say the sky is blue and the earth is round and folks will disagree, eye roll, and vomit emoji your posts.

 

We win and it is all 🌈  and 🦄  and folks singing around the campfire... 

 

We take care of business with Miami (in convincing fashion) and the natives will be less restless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by WideNine

[TheBeaneBandit]

15 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I think the interior OL needs another tweak now, not next season. Feliciano needs competition or a move to the bench if we are going to beat teams like Tampa  and win this year. He has proven to not be the answer, my only hope is we can get a replacement now.

 

Couldn't agree more.

To be clear im not for dumping Morse. But if we brought in a high paid guard the cap whiners would get all worked up. Bring in a great guard and make it work. 

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, TFBillsfan said:

While I believe Spencer Brown has potential, let’s slow our roll. Spencer was a huge liability against the Titans and will need to significantly improve if the Bills are going to reach their ultimate goal. Hopefully the OL stays healthy and continues to get better as the season progresses.

 

Teller would have been solid at OG but Spain was a liability at the time. Sometimes players just need a new start.

 

 

I mean his one full season as a Bills starter Spain gave up zero sacks. Then they paid him and whatever happened happened. Whether he lost focus or came back overweight (he has had issues with that in his career) or fell out with coaches.... but it was pretty clear very early last year that something was off even before the Tennessee game where he no showed. When he is focussed and in shape Quinton Spain is a really solid NFL guard. 

 

EDIT: I agree with you on Brown. I thought he played really poorly at Tennessee having been really good against Houston and KC. The potential is obviously there but there is "a lot of meat left on the bone" as McDermott would say. 

Edited October 27, 2021 by GunnerBill

[colin]

we clearly need an upgrade on the interior line, Ford being trash is a big problem.  I think our most correctable issue on OL and DL is schematic.  Our OL just can't handle stunts at all, like zero.  on the DL, i think depending on who is on the pitch the opponents know where they can double and just an quick win and use that to reduce the impact of our pass rush.

 

hope they figure it out during the bye week.

[Stevie Ray]

Well, it can never get any worse than the play of the human turnstile, Joe Panos. 🤢

[BillsShredder83]

10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Brad Butler was really getting good, and then he retired as a young guy to go into politics. Which didn't work out for him.

 

Urbik was decent for a while, a tough guy but not really athletic. Ross Tucker was solid too. Ostroski was OK.

 

But I'm starting to run dry after that.

 

Two or three have been mentioned before. Levitre was good and big Ruben Brown is still underrated, an absolute road grader.

 

The Super Bowl guys of course, Davis and Ritcher. But since those two not a ton.

Damn forgot about Butler. I remember that one stinging. I dont think he was great, but being good on those teams, felt like great lol do not miss that!

[vincec]

To paraphrase Rick Pitino, Ruben Brown isn't walking out the tunnel. If the Bills OL is going to improve this season and give the team a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, then they are going to need improvement from the players they currently have.

 

Brown will need to avoid the rookie wall and improve over the course of the season, Williams will need to settle in at guard and show that his problems at Carolina were injury related, and Dawkins will need to get back to his pre-COVID form. I think Morse and Feliciano are what they are at this point but if the other three can pick up their games then I think the line will be much stronger as a whole.

[billsfan89]

1 hour ago, vincec said:

To paraphrase Rick Pitino, Ruben Brown isn't walking out the tunnel. If the Bills OL is going to improve this season and give the team a chance to compete for a Super Bowl, then they are going to need improvement from the players they currently have.

 

Brown will need to avoid the rookie wall and improve over the course of the season, Williams will need to settle in at guard and show that his problems at Carolina were injury related, and Dawkins will need to get back to his pre-COVID form. I think Morse and Feliciano are what they are at this point but if the other three can pick up their games then I think the line will be much stronger as a whole.

 

The O-line in my opinion isn't a problem especially since Brown has taken over at RT and D.Williams has kicked inside. Dawkins and Brown are a very good tackle combo thus far, Mitch is a high-end pass blocking center who does the little things and brings leadership to the center position, D.Williams has played well at guard thus far and even Mongo is decent at LG.

 

I think the roster is so strong that having a player like Mongo looking OK appears like it is a weak link. Whereas in the past when the team would be rolling out 5-6 subpar starters having a guy being OK was viewed as not being an issue. 

 

Whereas when you are very strong and deep across the board a player being "OK" can look like a weakness and an area in need of an upgrade. IF The Bills had the cap space to bring in Norwell I would be all for it. But the Bills just don't have the cap space nor is there any other good O-line talent that would make sense to be out on the market.

 

Going with the current line isn't an issue in my opinion. The worst player on the line (Mongo) is still a respectable starting caliber player. 

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The O-line in my opinion isn't a problem especially since Brown has taken over at RT and D.Williams has kicked inside. Dawkins and Brown are a very good tackle combo thus far, Mitch is a high-end pass blocking center who does the little things and brings leadership to the center position, D.Williams has played well at guard thus far and even Mongo is decent at LG.

 

I think the roster is so strong that having a player like Mongo looking OK appears like it is a weak link. Whereas in the past when the team would be rolling out 5-6 subpar starters having a guy being OK was viewed as not being an issue. 

 

Whereas when you are very strong and deep across the board a player being "OK" can look like a weakness and an area in need of an upgrade. IF The Bills had the cap space to bring in Norwell I would be all for it. But the Bills just don't have the cap space nor is there any other good O-line talent that would make sense to be out on the market.

 

Going with the current line isn't an issue in my opinion. The worst player on the line (Mongo) is still a respectable starting caliber player. 

 

Brown was a problem at Tennessee. The line did not play well. It can be put down to the normal growing pains of a rookie but he has to play better than that for us to start crowning him.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

This guy needs to go ⬇️

 

Props to Freddie's Dead for being first.

[billsfan89]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brown was a problem at Tennessee. The line did not play well. It can be put down to the normal growing pains of a rookie but he has to play better than that for us to start crowning him.

I would have to watch the game again but I thought Brown did OK against a tough matchup in the Titans game. Overall I didn’t think the Oline was the issue in that game, could it have been better? Of course but I think the bad QB sneak is making people blame the Oline more than needed.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Imma put this here:  Good analysis of interior OL play by Skarekrow on Buffalo Rumblings. 

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2021/10/27/22747737/all-22-analysis-buffalo-bills-interior-offensive-line

 

Even if you don't agree with him on all points, he puts a bunch of film up there and you can roll your own conclusion.  For example, his play 3 is also a play analyzed by Cover1 who point out that essentially it's a "pick" on Morse - the Titans understand that the Bills blocking scheme calls for Feliciano to pass his man to Morse, and in the process the defender uses the pass to knock Morse off balance and give him a rushing lane.  I don't think it's a "chemistry" issue?

 

He puts his bottom line up front: while the IOL may be a "weak link" at times, it's a weak link in a fairly strong chain:

 

Quote

Let’s start with a disclaimer. This is coming from a place of self-scouting and embracing the idea of “growth mindset” that head coach Sean McDermott preaches. While a lot of the below focuses on “problem areas” with the interior offensive line, let me be very clear on a few things. The Buffalo Bills:

score on 52.9 percent of their drives. That’s number one in the league

average 2.88 points per drive, tied with Dallas for best in the league

have the fourth-best turnover rate per drive

have the third-best sack rate in the NFL

run game averages 4.4 yards per carry (this is pretty much average)

Even assuming the interior offensive line is a “weak link” for the Bills, that’s still an impressive chain so far this year. Let’s peep some film.

 

Good points all, but I suspect that if you looked at OL performance in the two games the Bills lost, you would find that the overall percentages are deceptive - a sort of "on average the duck is dead" where there's a cluster of shots to the L and a cluster of shots to the R.

 

Quote

Based on those two games, I can say that the KC performance seemed a lot stronger overall. A common issue against Tennessee was the lack of push. Remember my use of the phrase “not a mauler” over the summer? Still applies. Also, all three interior lineman had some struggles picking up lateral blocks.

 

My $0.02 is that when these guys are getting beat, it's somewhat by design, meaning it seems as though the pass rush is well-schemed to take advantage of weak points in a zone blocking scheme - for example, the scheme calls for one defender to be passed to the next OLman, but that OLman is already engaged and can't readily pass his guy off to the next OL.   Then instead of two properly balanced OLmen engaged with good technique, they wind up with one OLman with nothing to do and two guys who are off balance and "behind the defender".  What I know about OL protection schemes could be written on a nickle and lost, but that can't be the best way to function with guys who aren't "maulers".

 

Hopefully this is something the Bills looked at in some depth during the bye.

[GunnerBill]

59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

My $0.02 is that when these guys are getting beat, it's somewhat by design, meaning it seems as though the pass rush is well-schemed to take advantage of weak points in a zone blocking scheme - for example, the scheme calls for one defender to be passed to the next OLman, but that OLman is already engaged and can't readily pass his guy off to the next OL.   Then instead of two properly balanced OLmen engaged with good technique, they wind up with one OLman with nothing to do and two guys who are off balance and "behind the defender".  What I know about OL protection schemes could be written on a nickle and lost, but that can't be the best way to function with guys who aren't "maulers".

 

Hopefully this is something the Bills looked at in some depth during the bye.

 

We have definitely struggled with well designed and called stunts. I just think we are pretty average talent wise up front. Dion hasn't been at his best. Morse has played fine but he isn't a star. Brown is a rookie and then the guard positions have been much talked about.