Evaluation of Guards at OBD

[Dablitzkrieg]

Talk to me about how we have missed horribly on guards.  First Wyatt Teller and now Q. Spain.   He is playing unbelievably well and there is talk of extending him.  Meanwhile our guards are ass.  What exactly is the deal?  Not trying to come off so negative,  but I think it's a good discussion topic.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Dablitzkrieg

[H2o]

Spain was alright for us as well........and then he signed a contract extension. Do you not remember what led up to his release last year? Him getting mauled on the interior and almost getting Josh killed? Then his falling out with our coaching staff behind the scenes? Teller? Yeah, we should have held onto him. Spain? Fool's gold. FWIW the OL has been better since moving Williams inside and Brown to RT.  

[TheBeaneBandit]

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

[Pags24]

I do like Williams at RG and Brown at RT a lot!  Letting Teller go was a big mistake and was unfortunate but what I really can't grasp is this..... one of the reasons we traded Teller was we had added some new pieces one of them being Ryan Bates, I recall reading how much our coaching staff was impressed with Bates right away.  So my question has been for the last couple of years.  Why doesn't Ryan Bates get more reps?  Let him play! 

[Coach Tuesday]

Seems like one of those areas where the scouts, GM and coaches are not on the same page.  

[billsbackto81]

Front offices try to avoid interior OL with quality draft picks unless they're seen as a "generational" talent and even then don't get picked until later.  So many quality Guards are had in the later rounds and some even undrafted like the much talked about Andrew Norwell. Sadly this front office doesn't evaluate and draft OL very well. Brown is raw but might turn out good.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

Y’all remember Vlad?!  😬

[John from Riverside]

13 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

Morse is actually playing pretty well for us.....totally agree on Norwell

 

[BuffaloRebound]

Seems like it’s a scheme/play-calling thing.  Goal last 3+ years has been to tailor the offense to make sure Josh developed.  And rightfully so.  
Now I think they need to pivot to a little more power running.  

[John from Riverside]

10 minutes ago, Pags24 said:

I do like Williams at RG and Brown at RT a lot!  Letting Teller go was a big mistake and was unfortunate but what I really can't grasp is this..... one of the reasons we traded Teller was we had added some new pieces one of them being Ryan Bates, I recall reading how much our coaching staff was impressed with Bates right away.  So my question has been for the last couple of years.  Why doesn't Ryan Bates get more reps?  Let him play! 

The problem is if our ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl we are going to have to go through teams like the Titans......DL that are big physical and nasty and were throwing our OL around like rag dolls.....Williams was on his ass a LOT last game....Jon F. gets worked against quality DL.....Ford got benched....

 

 

[TheBeaneBandit]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Morse is actually playing pretty well for us.....totally agree on Norwell

 

I agree John, but next year it could be a money issue. I would make it fit because I'm cool like that 😎

[John from Riverside]

Process

 

Some to be desired on the OL I admit....but DL?   They are the reason why this was the number 1 defense this last week.....the picks of AJE, Oliver, Groot all look to be very good picks

[Mat68]

Lets see how Williams develops at RG.  Imo, they have been playing as the left side of the line the strength of the run game.  Imo they might be better off running right.  Brown looks to me as the teams best run blocker.  Finishes his blocks and gets to the second level with ease.  I like the current 5.  I think Felicano is on notice and Dawkins needs to play better. 

[Pags24]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

The problem is if our ultimate goal is to win a Super Bowl we are going to have to go through teams like the Titans......DL that are big physical and nasty and were throwing our OL around like rag dolls.....Williams was on his ass a LOT last game....Jon F. gets worked against quality DL.....Ford got benched....

 

 

I agree our O-line hasn't been great.  My point though was Brown/Williams on the right side are at least an improvement from Williams/Ford.... also, give Bates a shot at LG.

[RoyBatty is alive]

28 minutes ago, H2o said:

Spain was alright for us as well........and then he signed a contract extension. Do you not remember what led up to his release last year? Him getting mauled on the interior and almost getting Josh killed? Then his falling out with our coaching staff behind the scenes? Teller? Yeah, we should have held onto him. Spain? Fool's gold. FWIW the OL has been better since moving Williams inside and Brown to RT.  

The move of Williams and Brown has been an incredible improvement.  Spencer Brown has fixed a massive issue on the O Line thus far. It may end up being one of the Bills best draft picks.  A 3rd rounder playing like a 1st rounder.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Pags24 said:

I agree our O-line hasn't been great.  My point though was Brown/Williams on the right side are at least an improvement from Williams/Ford.... also, give Bates a shot at LG.

Every year I wait for the bills to make the mistake of not bringing back Bates and he ends up being a quality starter on another team.

[Mango]

28 minutes ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

 

With Dawkins not playing well post covid Morse is our best OL. I am also not comfortable cutting our best OL to have maybe our worst OL take over his role. 

"Our guards suck, cut our best player/center, have one if the poop guards take over. Still need to fix the interior OL, but worse now"

[34-78-83]

From what I observe and read around the league, there is somewhat of a widespread shortage of good guard play out there, even amongst starting lineups. Lots of teams have zero good guards and very few have 2 that are above replacement level.

 

 Teller hurts but those things do happen.

Edited October 26, 2021 by 34-78-83

[Mango]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Process

 

Some to be desired on the OL I admit....but DL?   They are the reason why this was the number 1 defense this last week.....the picks of AJE, Oliver, Groot all look to be very good picks

 

 

I reaaaallllly want to agree here. But he as also a second round pick that was a healthy scratch in an important conference match up.

 

He may very well turn out to be a very solid pick. But it is hard for me to swallow that in year two, a second round DE is still hanging out in sweats during important games.

[Pags24]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Every year I wait for the bills to make the mistake of not bringing back Bates and he ends up being a quality starter on another team.

Exactly, whenever he gets in I feel like he plays really well.  I'd like to see Dawkins, Bates, Morse, Williams, Brown.  I'm not saying we're going to dominate with that lineup but I think it's the best option we got for now.

[BearNorth]

Once upon a time, The Bills signed an UDFA named Jason Peters.  Guy is still playing at age 40, and still ranked among the top 10 tackles in the league. Also Ali Marpet played in college in the Bills back yard, and we drafted Ronald Darby instead of Marpet, who has a ring.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BearNorth

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

 

I reaaaallllly want to agree here. But he as also a second round pick that was a healthy scratch in an important conference match up.

 

He may very well turn out to be a very solid pick. But it is hard for me to swallow that in year two, a second round DE is still hanging out in sweats during important games.

Mango I honestly dont think he is healthy

[Mango]

The Bills do have some flexibility at the interior next year. In theory Dawkins can kick inside if needed, he originally played G. His LT play has been very good but not stellar over his career. His salary/cap hit is closer to a top guard than a top LT next year. 

So if the Bills see a LT they really like more than the OG position, the could in theory move that direction. Unsure if Brown can play LT, but that could open some things up as well. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I think the interior OL needs another tweak now, not next season. Feliciano needs competition or a move to the bench if we are going to beat teams like Tampa  and win this year. He has proven to not be the answer, my only hope is we can get a replacement now.

 

[TheBeaneBandit]

12 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I think the interior OL needs another tweak now, not next season. Feliciano needs competition or a move to the bench if we are going to beat teams like Tampa  and win this year. He has proven to not be the answer, my only hope is we can get a replacement now.

 

Couldn't agree more.

[Pete]

24 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Once upon a time, The Bills signed an UDFA named Jason Peters.  Guy is still playing at age 40, and still ranked among the top 10 tackles in the league. Also Ali Marpet played in college in the Bills back yard, and we drafted Ronald Darby instead of Marpet, who has a ring.

 

 

tBD also had Marpets college coach posting here- saying how talented Marpet was, and what a good kid.  He said Marpet would be All Pro in NFL, and any team would be lucky to have him.  We still blew it

Guard might be our biggest draft need.  Two please

[billsfan89]

Spain was great year one, Mongo was signed on an affordable contract and in my opinion has played at a starting caliber level. Ike has been developed into a high end backup and Bates can play guard in a pinch at an effective level. 
 

They made a massive whiff on letting Teller go and resigned Spain to a deal they aborted quickly. So while it hasn’t been great I would say the evaluation and development of guards is decent. Not the best but not tragic either.

[Bob in STL]

I don’t think all of our interior OL sucks.   That said, I wanted them to use the 2nd pick to address a stud OG. That will have to happen next year.  
 

We have our team in place and the coaches  need to coach up the OL that we have and put the offense in a position to succeed.  We have brought our team to the party.  

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Talk to me about how we have missed horribly on guards.  First Wyatt Teller and now Q. Spain.   He is playing unbelievably well and there is talk of extending him.  Meanwhile our guards are ass.  What exactly is the deal?  Not trying to come off so negative,  but I think it's a good discussion topic.

 

It was not performance related with Spain for me. There was something else going on.

[John from Riverside]

Hey Solomon Grundy.....do you ever do anything except thumbs down posts and not add your own insight into the conversation?

 

Just curios

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

It was not performance related with Spain for me. There was something else going on.

I absolutely believe this to be true

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Talk to me about how we have missed horribly on guards.  First Wyatt Teller and now Q. Spain.   He is playing unbelievably well and there is talk of extending him.  Meanwhile our guards are ass.  What exactly is the deal?  Not trying to come off so negative,  but I think it's a good discussion topic.

I am assuming that you are young. God bless you!!!!!

 

If our current guards bother you, you should have seen the guards on this football team for more than 2 decades before McBeane. Ruben Brown was good. Aside from him it is hard to even remember 1 other good guard for at least 20 years.  During this time we had a hand full of good OTs. One (Jason Peters) was GREAT and we promptly traded him away. 

 

If my suspicion about your age is true, I am truly glad that you didn't have to suffer through this. 👍

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I am assuming that you are young. God bless you!!!!!

 

If our current guards bother you, you should have seen the guards on this football team for more than 2 decades before McBeane. Ruben Brown was good. Aside from him it is hard to even remember 1 other good guard for at least 20 years.  During this time we had a hand full of good OTs. One (Jason Peters) was GREAT and we promptly traded him away. 

 

If my suspicion about your age is true, I am truly glad that you didn't have to suffer through this. 👍

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Levitre was good 

 

And Incognito for a year 

Edited October 26, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, BearNorth said:

Once upon a time, The Bills signed an UDFA named Jason Peters.  Guy is still playing at age 40, and still ranked among the top 10 tackles in the league. Also Ali Marpet played in college in the Bills back yard, and we drafted Ronald Darby instead of Marpet, who has a ring.

 

 

In 2003, the Bills OL was a complete mess. We had pick #23. A  guard named Eric Steinbach was sitting there. We passed him right up and selected Willis Magahee, a severely injured RB who sat out 1 year and 4 games before ever seeing the field. Steinbach had a long, very good career and was even able to play some LT when needed.

Oh, and in 2008, we passed on some great blockers to draft McKelvin. It was an utter disgrace.

Having lived through this, you will not hear many complaints from me about McBeane.

 

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Levitre was good 

He sure was!!! I was praising him week after week on this board GB. I had seen a couple of his college games and wanted the Bills to draft him.

Too bad he got hurt. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

52 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I am assuming that you are young. God bless you!!!!!

 

If our current guards bother you, you should have seen the guards on this football team for more than 2 decades before McBeane. Ruben Brown was good. Aside from him it is hard to even remember 1 other good guard for at least 20 years.  During this time we had a hand full of good OTs. One (Jason Peters) was GREAT and we promptly traded him away. 

 

If my suspicion about your age is true, I am truly glad that you didn't have to suffer through this. 👍

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm 40, I feel young.  With your "wisdom" I would have thought you would not have read this and assumed an age.

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was not performance related with Spain for me. There was something else 

That makes sense

[Bill from NYC]

12 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

I'm 40, I feel young.  With your "wisdom" I would have thought you would not have read this and assumed an age.

 

Sorry Bro. I'm not all that wise and nobody is perfect.  

[CSBill]

2 hours ago, Pags24 said:

I do like Williams at RG and Brown at RT a lot!  Letting Teller go was a big mistake and was unfortunate but what I really can't grasp is this..... one of the reasons we traded Teller was we had added some new pieces one of them being Ryan Bates, I recall reading how much our coaching staff was impressed with Bates right away.  So my question has been for the last couple of years.  Why doesn't Ryan Bates get more reps?  Let him play! 

Agree. I guess his role as a super sub is valuable. But if he is better than a starter, start him! Maybe he is not???

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Trade for Norwell and fix this ****. Next year cut Morse and let Bates/Mongo/draft pick fight for center.

 

People keep saying this, but no one can demonstrate why they believe:

1) Morse is the problem or the biggest problem on the OL

2) either Bates or Mongo are anywhere near him as a pass-protecting center

 

He isn't, and they aren't.

 

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

I am assuming that you are young. God bless you!!!!!

 

If our current guards bother you, you should have seen the guards on this football team for more than 2 decades before McBeane. Ruben Brown was good. Aside from him it is hard to even remember 1 other good guard for at least 20 years.  During this time we had a hand full of good OTs. One (Jason Peters) was GREAT and we promptly traded him away. 

 

If my suspicion about your age is true, I am truly glad that you didn't have to suffer through this. 👍

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Incognito was good for a while.

Wood was good as a guard but moved to center after a year

Andy Levitre was pretty good but didn't fit the "mauler" mold Marrone was looking for

 

2 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

I think the interior OL needs another tweak now, not next season. Feliciano needs competition or a move to the bench if we are going to beat teams like Tampa  and win this year. He has proven to not be the answer, my only hope is we can get a replacement now.

 

That would be great, but at this time of the year starting-calibre OGs are not usually wandering the streets looking to be signed - nor are teams generally willing to trade them.

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Talk to me about how we have missed horribly on guards.  First Wyatt Teller and now Q. Spain.   He is playing unbelievably well and there is talk of extending him.  Meanwhile our guards are ass.  What exactly is the deal?  Not trying to come off so negative,  but I think it's a good discussion topic.

Yikes, Wake up Krieg !!!! Q Spain quit on the team two years ago, everyone knows this, oh well on Teller, ya miss sometimes, it’s s topic that’s been beaten to death several times over the last two years, nothing to be done about either player now,

 

Go Bills!!!

[Bill from NYC]

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Incognito was good for a while.

Wood was good as a guard but moved to center after a year

Andy Levitre was pretty good but didn't fit the "mauler" mold Marrone was looking for

 

Agreed wrt Incog. I don't count Wood as a guard. Levitre was excellent imo. He was not a mauler, but he got great angles on his blocks and was a LT in college which really helped him in pass protection, but remember; I was talking about 2 decades of guards lol! I know that @BADOLBILZ will remember how much I praised Levitre. Btw when the Bills refused to sign him as a ufa, his career seemed to fall apart. I suspect that he was hurt. Either way, it wound up being the right move.

 

Those were tough times to be a Bills fan but we really stayed with them on this board. Going off topic a bit, do you remember Jairus Byrd? At one point he was intercepting passes seemingly at will. @BADOLBILZ posted that most of his interceptions were the result of lucky bounces and the board went NUTS defending Byrd. Nobody believed Badol. Well, the bounces stopped going his way, combined with some odd sounding injury and that was the end of him. This as I recall was when Levitre was here.

 

Things like the above are the reason I don't complain so much these days. I remember all too well about bad guard play. I could probably list 20 guards we had that ranged from below average to flat out terrible.  I am enjoying Bills games now!  

 

Super Bowl Bound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Hey Solomon Grundy.....do you ever do anything except thumbs down posts and not add your own insight into the conversation?

 

Just curios

I absolutely believe this to be true

Spain got Benched for his play not being up to snuff, They were sending a message to him, Spain then had a temper tantrum and quit while on a flight to an away game, mystery “ foot injury”  never played again for us,  this all happened within months of a new contract, it was all over this board for months,