report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[Beast]

10 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Pretty big statement top make with no data to back it up!   Sure not everyone wants to go to a restaurant, but a good number may if they had the choice especially in December when snowing or raining real hard.  Today they don't have the option so no way of knowing.

 

Actually one could argue, do people tailgate at Sabres games?  Or do they go to restaurants?  If so that proves that's what people really want.  Does this really prove anything, no!  But is a nice way to use some data to back a preconceived conclusion. 

 

Back it up? Bring your own beer/booze while being surrounded by people you want to be surrounded by before the game vs. 7 to 10 dollar drinks and who knows what on the menu in a crowded restaurant?

 

I know what I'm taking.

 

And bringing up tailgating at a Sabres game is funny. Tell me when people start showing up 4 to 5 hours before a Sabres game like they do a Bills game.

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Beast

[billsfanmiamioh]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

So how do you build on what we have now? More parking lots for tailgating? Table jumping? Actual vomitoriums? I could suggest some things but judging by your "lame" reference you probably wouldn't like them. Even with a downtown stadium there will be plenty of places to tailgate.

How about a permanent tailgate structure you “rent” for the season with grill, basic utensils trash can, port a John,etc. Make different “levels” of that at different price points. Expand the food trucks, stage for a band, etc. There’s lots of creative things that can be done to not only build on what we have in OP but also eliminate some of the crap by pricing out the 20 year olds. And yeah I probably wouldn’t like the rest of your lame responses. Even the “good” downtown stadium experiences like NOLA and Nashville are fun for a game or two a year but would get old over the course of a season. 

[Back2Buff]

To me it's downtown stadium, or move the team.

 

Investing 1.4 billion into OP is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.  

 

You want to have PSLs and higher ticket prices, the stadium better be near hotels and restaurants. 

[QCity]

8 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

To me it's downtown stadium, or move the team.

 

Investing 1.4 billion into OP is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.  

 

You want to have PSLs and higher ticket prices, the stadium better be near hotels and restaurants. 

 

Your post is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

 

"downtown or move the team"   Can we be anymore melodramatic?

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

To me it's downtown stadium, or move the team.

 

Investing 1.4 billion into OP is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.  

 

You want to have PSLs and higher ticket prices, the stadium better be near hotels and restaurants. 

 

What do PSL's have to do with hotels being nearby?

 

And who is going to the game to eat at a restaurant?  "If I'm going to pay more for a Bills ticket then I sure as hell better be able to overpay for crappy food at some new stadium-side restaurant before or after the game, before I retire to my junior suite at the Hilton Garden Inn----or move the team!!!"

 

Excellent points..

 

 

[Doc]

If you want the downtown experience so bad, go there after the game.  There is nothing stopping you from doing that even now. 

[Back2Buff]

57 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

What do PSL's have to do with hotels being nearby?

 

And who is going to the game to eat at a restaurant?  "If I'm going to pay more for a Bills ticket then I sure as hell better be able to overpay for crappy food at some new stadium-side restaurant before or after the game, before I retire to my junior suite at the Hilton Garden Inn----or move the team!!!"

 

Excellent points..

 

 

 

You realize that higher ticket prices and PSLs would bring in a different type of fan (probably not a guy like yourself).  The fans that are willingly to pay more for a ticket and PSL, will be the people that want to go to restaurants and have clients fly in for the game.

 

The Bills catering to the current type of fan, but with higher prices, will result in a lot of empty seats.  

[clayboy54]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

2014: Same study by same company looking at exactly the same site.

Classic double-dipping. Dust off the old report, change the dates and invoice the State.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Beast said:

 

Back it up? Bring your own beer/booze while being surrounded by people you want to be surrounded by before the game vs. 7 to 10 dollar drinks and who knows what on the menu in a crowded restaurant?

 

I know what I'm taking.

 

And bringing up tailgating at a Sabres game is funny. Tell me when people start showing up 4 to 5 hours before a Sabres game like they do a Bills game.

 

 

All based on what you see around you only with people who have no other options but to tailgate outside.  So they are crowded restaurants, hmmm.....  must mean people are interested in going there!  I assume you never go out to eat as you don't know what's on the menu.

 

As far as people not there 4 to 5 hours prior to a Sabres game, do you go door to door in every restaurant and check to see if empty?  Are they going to go 4 to 5 hours early to restaurant, not likely, but nothing wrong with that either.  But they may be there one to two hours early eating someplace.

 

Sure people like to tailgate and many probably more than half would continue, but maybe not for every game and some may like the options and some may prefer it too.  For someone going to game maybe just with one other person, they may prefer the restaurant options.

 

But you're just dismissing it based on nothing to compare against.  I'm sure there are some other cities with bars and restaurants within walking distance of stadiums that do very well but also tailgating nearby too.

 

Your logic here is as sound as flipping a one sided coin and every time it comes up heads and then making the statement: "See heads always wins!:  You're comparing against nothing.

[34-78-83]

14 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

People spending money at the stadium and local businesses? Ever been to a Ravens game? You have tailgating but you also have restaurants hosting pregame parties. Not everyone wants to grill and chug beer.

While that's true (I don't tailgate at all but am a season ticket holder) we enjoy the multitude of parking options (we park at ECC) and the variety of exit options that OP offers. I don't feel like that would be the case down town, would it? I foresee tons of traffic congestion. I realize other cities deal with it but I haven't been to NFL games in other cities.

[PromoTheRobot]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Those sound like things an out-of-towner would want to do. Who wants to throw a football around inside Pearl Street Brewing? Or watch Kenny get blasted with ketchup outside Southern Tier?

 

Just my opinion.

 

I don’t know how tailgating would work at all downtown. There’s no space.

Downtown Buffalo isn't midtown Manhattan. They're are plenty of pockets where tailgating could happen. Ganson St. across the Buffalo River, by Riverworks comes to mind. They're are lots of empty lots in the First Ward. If you want to tailgate there are spots, even downtown.

[CountDorkula]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

If you want the downtown experience so bad, go there after the game.  There is nothing stopping you from doing that even now. 

The 1-2 hours it would take to get out of the lots and drive down the stadium would probably be a deterrent to many. 

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Downtown Buffalo isn't midtown Manhattan. They're are plenty of pockets where tailgating could happen. Ganson St. across the Buffalo River, by Riverworks comes to mind. They're are lots of empty lots in the First Ward. If you want to tailgate there are spots, even downtown.

Yea but how am I supposed to get so drunk I pass out.

We cant lose that.

 

Also you want me to spend money at local breweries and restaurants when I can just buy a 30 of keystone for 18 bucks. Get real brah

29 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

While that's true (I don't tailgate at all but am a season ticket holder) we enjoy the multitude of parking options (we park at ECC) and the variety of exit options that OP offers. I don't feel like that would be the case down town, would it? I foresee tons of traffic congestion. I realize other cities deal with it but I haven't been to NFL games in other cities.

Lets not act like you are in and out of the stadium in 5 minutes. It takes upwards of an hour+ to get out of a lot of these lots around the stadium.

 

Downtown would be no different. 

[ColoradoBills]

11 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

So how do you build on what we have now? More parking lots for tailgating? Table jumping? Actual vomitoriums? I could suggest some things but judging by your "lame" reference you probably wouldn't like them. Even with a downtown stadium there will be plenty of places to tailgate.

 

That is funny.  The pictures this conjured up in my mind are great!

 

General comment:

As to the downtown stadium site let's all wait to see what the proposal looks like and what type of parking/tailgating will be available?

 

I still think the stadium being located by Conway Park and the parking being in the old Perry Projects is a good option.

More than enough for those who want to still tailgate. 

[34-78-83]

16 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

The 1-2 hours it would take to get out of the lots and drive down the stadium would probably be a deterrent to many. 

Yea but how am I supposed to get so drunk I pass out.

We cant lose that.

 

Also you want me to spend money at local breweries and restaurants when I can just buy a 30 of keystone for 18 bucks. Get real brah

Lets not act like you are in and out of the stadium in 5 minutes. It takes upwards of an hour+ to get out of a lot of these lots around the stadium.

 

Downtown would be no different. 

Pretend? We're talking about stadium parking here. What kind of tool would I have to be to hide facts to make a point about stadium parking? Take my comment with the given that it takes some time to get out of there no matter where the stadium is, that better? Generally we are out and on the 90 in 20 min from ECC.

[Einstein]

31 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Downtown Buffalo isn't midtown Manhattan. They're are plenty of pockets where tailgating could happen. Ganson St. across the Buffalo River, by Riverworks comes to mind. They're are lots of empty lots in the First Ward. If you want to tailgate there are spots, even downtown.

Ok, so you’re talking about tailgating in random pockets - some of which are not all that close to the stadium, including crossing a river. That’s even more ridiculous in my opinion.

 

.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Einstein

[SCBills]

I've gone to college games in the south where people are tailgating over a mile from the stadium.  How close do some of you need to be?

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I've gone to college games in the south where people are tailgating over a mile from the stadium.  How close do some of you need to be?

 

Preferably, right outside the stadium. 

 

I’ve never liked the “other programs do it THIS way, so that means it’s good” line of thinking.

 

Im sure if you asked fans of that college team whether they’d park a mile away, or right next to the stadium, they’d pick right next to the stadium.

 

Seahawk fans still complain about not having space next to their stadium.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

Preferably, right outside the stadium. 

 

I’ve never liked the “other programs do it THIS way, so that means it’s good” line of thinking.

 

Im sure if you asked fans of that college team whether they’d park a mile away, or right next to the stadium, they’d pick right next to the stadium.

 

Seahawk fans still complain about not having space next to their stadium.

 

I don't think it's "good".  Of course most people would love to tailgate right outside the stadium, but it's not abnormal.  

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Those sound like things an out-of-towner would want to do. Who wants to throw a football around inside Pearl Street Brewing? Or watch Kenny get blasted with ketchup outside Southern Tier?

 

Just my opinion.

 

I don’t know how tailgating would work at all downtown. There’s no space.

 Have you ever been to the first ward neighborhood? Oh there’ll be tailgating. They tailgate for the annual 5k run. 

[PromoTheRobot]

50 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Ok, so you’re talking about tailgating in random pockets - some of which are not all that close to the stadium, including crossing a river. That’s even more ridiculous in my opinion.

 

.

 

So walking over a bridge is unacceptable? How do people who park on California survive the death march to Southwestern Blvd, with the creek in the way?

[Inigo Montoya]

This stadium is going to be the single biggest infrastructure development in WNY since the Niagara Falls power plant was built.  It will easily be the single biggest expenditure for the next fifty years.  Everyone is going to want to get a piece of the action.  

 

Every power player in WNY is on the phone with the governor's office right now extolling the virtue of a downtown stadium and arranging "donations" to various campaigns and political action committees.  Back channels between labor unions and the politicians they own are wide open right now.  Downtown real estate owners and developers are on the phone with the politicians they own too.  Not one of them is going to be arguing for a stand alone OP stadium that gets used a handful of times a year.  

 

I'd be shocked if this stadium doesn't end up built down town significantly overbudget and a year late.  Everyone is going to want to get a bite out of this once in a lifetime apple and that apple is much bigger in downtown Buffalo that it could ever be in OP.  Dunkirk is right, follow the money, and that trail leads to downtown Buffalo.

[RiotAct]

29 minutes ago, Inigo Montoya said:

This stadium is going to be the single biggest infrastructure development in WNY since the Niagara Falls power plant was built.  It will easily be the single biggest expenditure for the next fifty years.  Everyone is going to want to get a piece of the action.  

 

Every power player in WNY is on the phone with the governor's office right now extolling the virtue of a downtown stadium and arranging "donations" to various campaigns and political action committees.  Back channels between labor unions and the politicians they own are wide open right now.  Downtown real estate owners and developers are on the phone with the politicians they own too.  Not one of them is going to be arguing for a stand alone OP stadium that gets used a handful of times a year.  

 

I'd be shocked if this stadium doesn't end up built down town significantly overbudget and a year late.  Everyone is going to want to get a bite out of this once in a lifetime apple and that apple is much bigger in downtown Buffalo that it could ever be in OP.  Dunkirk is right, follow the money, and that trail leads to downtown Buffalo.

and they’ll tout it as some grand “community revitalization effort” or some s***.

[Gen2]

18 hours ago, Beast said:

What's the big facination with downtown? What does Buffalo have that will make the gameday experience better than what we already have in Orchard Park?

 That's exactly the point, local gov't desires a downtown stadium with the hope that the surrounding area then becomes desirable to be developed to "enhance the gameday experience". Restaurants, sports bars, condos etc etc etc.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Inigo Montoya said:

This stadium is going to be the single biggest infrastructure development in WNY since the Niagara Falls power plant was built.  It will easily be the single biggest expenditure for the next fifty years.  Everyone is going to want to get a piece of the action.  

 

Every power player in WNY is on the phone with the governor's office right now extolling the virtue of a downtown stadium and arranging "donations" to various campaigns and political action committees.  Back channels between labor unions and the politicians they own are wide open right now.  Downtown real estate owners and developers are on the phone with the politicians they own too.  Not one of them is going to be arguing for a stand alone OP stadium that gets used a handful of times a year.  

 

I'd be shocked if this stadium doesn't end up built down town significantly overbudget and a year late.  Everyone is going to want to get a bite out of this once in a lifetime apple and that apple is much bigger in downtown Buffalo that it could ever be in OP.  Dunkirk is right, follow the money, and that trail leads to downtown Buffalo.

 

There's a lot to it tho - i assume the stadium would probably end up where conway park is.  Extend rail along the river to the stadium - then on gamedays you can run this back and forth from harbor center/sabres lots to the stadium.  Probably rip down as much of the project housing as possible for parking or re-development.  Riverworks would need to figure out a way to ferry people across to the stadium.  

 

Then beyond all of this you need to figure out how to get people in and out of downtown for a game.  Access to route 5 or a skyway replacement.  Then updated 190 entrances north and south so that its easier to get in and out.  Where the 190 hits 90 is also a terribly designed exit so thats another bag of issues.

[Inigo Montoya]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

There's a lot to it tho - i assume the stadium would probably end up where conway park is.  Extend rail along the river to the stadium - then on gamedays you can run this back and forth from harbor center/sabres lots to the stadium.  Probably rip down as much of the project housing as possible for parking or re-development.  Riverworks would need to figure out a way to ferry people across to the stadium.  

 

Then beyond all of this you need to figure out how to get people in and out of downtown for a game.  Access to route 5 or a skyway replacement.  Then updated 190 entrances north and south so that its easier to get in and out.  Where the 190 hits 90 is also a terribly designed exit so thats another bag of issues.

 

 

You're right, those will all end up being expensive fixes.  Even more money for the grifters at the trough getting fat on government pork.

 

 

[Buffalo716]

36 minutes ago, Gen2 said:

 That's exactly the point, local gov't desires a downtown stadium with the hope that the surrounding area then becomes desirable to be developed to "enhance the gameday experience". Restaurants, sports bars, condos etc etc etc.

Downtown Buffalo is already developed and being developed.. it's not the east side

 

There are already tons of mom and pop shops and Bodegas downtown .. I was in downtown Pittsburgh yesterday.. downtown Buffalo has way more going on

 

And new stadiums have already been shown to not help the local economy... You never get back what you put in

Edited October 8, 2021 by Buffalo716

[PromoTheRobot]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Downtown Buffalo is already developed and being developed.. it's not the east side

 

There are already tons of mom and pop shops and Bodegas downtown .. I was in downtown Pittsburgh yesterday.. downtown Buffalo has way more going on

 

And new stadiums have already been shown to not help the local economy... You never get back what you put in

 

It's a given something OP will get you nothing back.

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

It's a given something OP will get you nothing back.

I hear ya

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

So walking over a bridge is unacceptable? How do people who park on California survive the death march to Southwestern Blvd, with the creek in the way?

 

Im not saying it’s like the end of the world or anything, but it’s definitely not preferable. Especially when you have a perfectly suitable spot in OP. Does the Michigan Ave bridge even have a sidewalk? Or are you envisioning people walking in the road? Maybe it does, I can’t remember.

 

The downtown idea seems like something out-of-towners would love but many local season ticket holders would not think is ideal. I’d love to see a poll to see if my theory is correct or just nonsense. 

 

If it must be moved, I’d much prefer Niagara Falls than downtown. I don’t want NF either though.

 

.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Einstein

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Back2Buff said:

 

You realize that higher ticket prices and PSLs would bring in a different type of fan (probably not a guy like yourself).  The fans that are willingly to pay more for a ticket and PSL, will be the people that want to go to restaurants and have clients fly in for the game.

 

The Bills catering to the current type of fan, but with higher prices, will result in a lot of empty seats.  

Nonsense.  There is not a huge group of more well off fans out there who are just waiting for the opportunity for a more exclusive Bills stadium experience followed by a nice dinner at some downtown restaurant.  There’s a mix of income groups at any game currently.  No matter where the new stadiums are built there will be PSLs and increased tickets across the board.  None of this has anything to do with its proximity or distance from hotels and restaurants. 

[Buffalo716]

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Im not saying it’s like the end of the world or anything, but it’s definitely not preferable. Especially when you have a perfectly suitable spot in OP. Does the Michigan Ave bridge even have a sidewalk? Or are you envisioning people walking in the road? Maybe it does, I can’t remember.

 

The downtown idea seems like something out-of-towners would love but many local season ticket holders would not think is ideal. I’d love to see a poll to see if my theory is correct or just nonsense. 

 

If it must be moved, I’d much prefer Niagara Falls than downtown. I don’t want NF either though.

 

.

Niagara falls ny, no offense 

 

Is a dump compared to Buffalo.. if they're building in a city it has to be Buffalo

 

 

[boater]

Okie dokey. If NY wants to dictate the location, then NY foots the majority of the stadium cost. It works no other way.

 

The major financier gets their choice of location.

 

I guarantee: The Bills are not financing a stadium in a location against their wishes. They want Orchard Park.

 

I'm sure the Bills would accept a downtown stadium, as long as they aren't the wallet being pick-pocketed.

[SirAndrew]

57 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Downtown Buffalo is already developed and being developed.. it's not the east side

 

There are already tons of mom and pop shops and Bodegas downtown .. I was in downtown Pittsburgh yesterday.. downtown Buffalo has way more going on

 

And new stadiums have already been shown to not help the local economy... You never get back what you put in

People always say this, and it may be true. However, I think it misses a key point. There are many political connected people who own businesses and land downtown. It’s fair to argue that a downtown stadium doesn’t revitalize a city, but the owners of bars and parking lots/garages will certainly see an increase in revenues. Revenue from Sunday gameday would change hands, going to political connected people who have the power to push for a downtown site. Think of the private parking lots in OP, most of those people are local landowners and small businesses. The parking lots in the city are often owned by some relatively important people. Those people play a huge role in where a stadium goes when they want public funding. 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

Okie dokey. If NY wants to dictate the location, then NY foots the majority of the stadium cost. It works no other way.

 

The major financier gets their choice of location.

 

I guarantee: The Bills are not financing a stadium in a location against their wishes. They want Orchard Park.

 

I'm sure the Bills would accept a downtown stadium, as long as they aren't the wallet being pick-pocketed.

 

I don't believe the Bills want OP. They'll settle for it.

[SirAndrew]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

Okie dokey. If NY wants to dictate the location, then NY foots the majority of the stadium cost. It works no other way.

 

The major financier gets their choice of location.

 

I guarantee: The Bills are not financing a stadium in a location against their wishes. They want Orchard Park.

 

I'm sure the Bills would accept a downtown stadium, as long as they aren't the wallet being pick-pocketed.

If the state pitches in enough money to make a downtown location the same cost as OP, do you think the team really cares that it’s not in OP? Is there one reason other than cost why the team cares if they stay in OP? 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, SirAndrew said:

People always say this, and it may be true. However, I think it misses a key point. There are many political connected people who own businesses and land downtown. It’s fair to argue that a downtown stadium doesn’t revitalize a city, but the owners of bars and parking lots/garages will certainly see an increase in revenues. Revenue from Sunday gameday would change hands, going to political connected people who have the power to push for a downtown site. Think of the private parking lots in OP, most of those people are local landowners and small businesses. The parking lots in the city are often owned by some relatively important people. Those people play a huge role in where a stadium goes when they want public funding. 

I'm not against the downtown stadium.. people think it's going to add all this business to the city.. it's not

 

Eight Sundays a year is going to do nothing for all the mom and pop shops downtown that operate 365 days a year, drop in the bucket

 

If They build it downtown because they think it's the best spot for a football stadium perfectly fine... But it's hardly going to move the needle on the local economy

[SirAndrew]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I'm not against the downtown stadium.. people think it's going to add all this business to the city.. it's not

 

Eight Sundays a year is going to do nothing for all the mom and pop shops downtown that operate 365 days a year, drop in the bucket

 

If They build it downtown because they think it's the best spot for a football stadium perfectly fine... But it's hardly going to move the needle on the local economy

I don’t necessarily disagree, but that’s why I said downtown provides cash for some political connected people. You can say it doesn’t help the local economy all you want, but it certainly puts money in the pockets of bar owners and those who own private lots etc. Many of those downtown businesses are owned by corporations who have some political clout. It’s not about the mom and pop shops you mention, it’s about the big time businessmen of WNY. 

[boater]

1 minute ago, SirAndrew said:

If the state pitches in enough money to make a downtown location the same cost as OP, do you think the team really cares that it’s not in OP? Is there one reason other than cost why the team cares if they stay in OP? 

The team would gladly move downtown if NY contributed enough to make it cost neutral to staying in OP.

 

I'll eat my shorts if Albany contributed the billion+ needed to make a downtown stadium feasible. We aren't the Yankees or the Mets.

[PromoTheRobot]

48 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Im not saying it’s like the end of the world or anything, but it’s definitely not preferable. Especially when you have a perfectly suitable spot in OP. Does the Michigan Ave bridge even have a sidewalk? Or are you envisioning people walking in the road? Maybe it does, I can’t remember.

 

The downtown idea seems like something out-of-towners would love but many local season ticket holders would not think is ideal. I’d love to see a poll to see if my theory is correct or just nonsense. 

 

If it must be moved, I’d much prefer Niagara Falls than downtown. I don’t want NF either though.

 

.

 

Yes the bridge has sidewalks, on both sides. And I can see them making the bridge pedestrian-only on game days if it helps move people. Don't forget there's a bridge at Ohio Street too. I could see Ganson Street becoming Tailgate Central downtown.

 

Look at this photo and tell me there's no place to tailgate.

Edited October 8, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, SirAndrew said:

I don’t necessarily disagree, but that’s why I said downtown provides cash for some political connected people. You can say it doesn’t help the local economy all you want, but it certainly puts money in the pockets of bar owners and those who own private lots etc. Many of those downtown businesses are owned by corporations who have some political clout. It’s not about the mom and pop shops you mention, it’s about the big time businessmen of WNY. 

So the rich get richer? It should absolutely be about the small business owners which are getting devastated during covid 

 

Fat cats don't need their wallets lined any bigger

 

Also Buffalo's a savvy drinking town.. we tailgate hard so we don't have to pay $10 beer at the Ralph... They'll be a select crowd that will bar hop downtown 

 

But the vast majority will be buying 12 packs from Wegmans pounding them at home or in their cars, and going to the stadium ... Not spending $12 a drink at a Downtown bar