report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[Rochesterfan]

14 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

We were told by the resident experts here that a downtown stadium will have ZERO economic impact. They even pointed to specific studies that said so... Ignore what you saw and heard in Tennessee.

 

 

 

I know - what I really hate about that argument is that a stadium is being built either way.  One gives economic impact (albeit most likely not enough to cover the cost). The second give no additional economic impact at all.

 

There are plenty of good arguments for and against a stadium anywhere - but no matter where it goes - things are going to change.  The owners are going to find ways to get more parking money and more in stadium food money - so my guess is for those that do not want downtown because of a lack of tailgating- just watch what you wish for - the tailgating experience in OP very well could change significantly with the new stadium versus what could be done in another location.

 

 

[BillStime]

1 minute ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I know - what I really hate about that argument is that a stadium is being built either way.  One gives economic impact (albeit most likely not enough to cover the cost). The second give no additional economic impact at all.

 

There are plenty of good arguments for and against a stadium anywhere - but no matter where it goes - things are going to change.  The owners are going to find ways to get more parking money and more in stadium food money - so my guess is for those that do not want downtown because of a lack of tailgating- just watch what you wish for - the tailgating experience in OP very well could change significantly with the new stadium versus what could be done in another location.

 

 

 

Exactly. The cost of admission is going to go up dramatically whether they build in OP or DT.

 

So, build it where it has the greatest economic impact for all.

 

I was listening to 98.5 the Sports Hub this morning (Boston based here) - they were bichin about the location of Gillette Stadium and how much better it is to attend a Sox, C's and B's game in the city - so much closer to everything and multiple ways to/from a game.

[Rochesterfan]

23 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

 

What do those bars and restaurants do during those some-355 days there arent Bills games?..... Fine, add in a monster truck rally and a Gunz and Roses concert.

 

The stadium downtown is cart before the horse.  We need true economic development downtown by the way of multiple fortune 500 companies anchoring there along with many residents within the city-proper.  

 

Nashville is a booming attractive city, with 6 fortune 500 companies and a lively entertainment culture.   It is already an attractive destination for travelers, with or without a football stadium.

 

Buffalo has 1 fortune 500 company in M&T.

 

Until Buffalo gets more commerce downtown... everything else is just window dressing to try to attract people from the suburbs sometimes.  Then they leave.

 

The downtown area already has a ton of Bars, restaurants, hotels, breweries, a casino built currently - they all survive right now without the stadium- just with the normal downtown workday crew.  
 

But if 8 times a year for long weekends - you had an additional 15,000+ people downtown using the hotels, breweries, restaurants, etc - to go with the 40 downtown Baseball games and the 40 downtown hockey games and the 15 summer concert series dates - you enhance what is there.

 

The new stadium wouldn’t require all of these things be built - they already exist - it would just give people a place to go.

 

In OP these things are very, very limited - so people come in - bring food and drink - tailgate and spend nothing extra - it is in and out.  
 

The area is anchored and has been in place long before and will survive whether the stadium is built or not.  The question becomes can a unique Nashville style experience be created downtown that could supplement the income of these locations and even bring in more to build something special.

 

Can you use the casino as an tenet to the stadium, can you build or use a brewery with outside access - that on game days also has an in stadium presence?

 

Can you have some of these local restaurants also provide a great game day meal at the stadium?  Can you cross promote to have a Bills/Sabres home weekend package at a hotel with tickets and accommodations?  You might even be able to cross promote if a Bills/Sabres opponent is in common - like when the Bills and Sabres both play in Florida and people travel for a weekend.

 

More companies would be nice, but they do not have to drive anything - everything already exists - the planning just needs to get done and the spacing put into place.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[LeGOATski]

8 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

But if 8 times a year for long weekends - you had an additional 15,000+ people downtown using the hotels, breweries, restaurants, etc - to go with the 40 downtown Baseball games and the 40 downtown hockey games and the 15 summer concert series dates - you enhance what is there.

 

What baseball team and concert series are you talking about? Honest question. If you're talking about low-level stuff, I'd think you're overestimating their impact.

 

I'm all for the Pegulas leaning into the entertainment side of things. They already own a small music label, but I think a new stadium that's built with concerts in mind could be good for their brand and bring more acts to the area.

 

However, it was pointed out to me in another thread that only 1 major concert currently goes through Buffalo each summer, if at all.

[purple haze]

57 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

It might be easier to get federal funds along with state funds if the project is seen as more than just a football stadium.

 

 

From my understanding, Federal funds would only be on the table for infrastructure not the actual stadium itself or other development surrounding it.  But if roads/bridges/tunnels are being expanded, created or adjusted that’s beneficial for thee tire community outside of a stadium.

[May Day 10]

11 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

What baseball team and concert series are you talking about? Honest question. If you're talking about low-level stuff, I'd think you're overestimating their impact.

 

 

I think probably the Canal Side/Thursday in the Square incarnation, plus some paid concerts held there in a non pandemic Summer.

 

 

I do think there is opportunity for a real amphitheater similar to the Molson Amphitheater.  Could corral a lot of Summer tours and also pretty much put Darien Lake out of business with what they have.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Remember this is long-term, 50 years possibly before another stadium would be built.

 

Do it right! 

[Fallsnative01]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:26 PM, Beast said:

What's the big facination with downtown? What does Buffalo have that will make the gameday experience better than what we already have in Orchard Park?

Beast, the local politicians don't want any local money invested unless the stadium can be placed downtown where it would attract people to other businesses such as restaurants, hotels, etc. The idea comes from other stadiums recently built who have placed them in areas where other businesses can catch side business from the stadium. And some new stadiums have built themed destination areas around it that include hotels, restaurants, etc. The politicians feel this way if money is invested these are businesses can make money off the stadium, and the stadium area becomes a destination not just for the stadium event itself. 

[Doc]

A combined UB/Bills stadium in downtown would be ideal.  Federal funds for infrastructure and state, local and Pegula funds for the stadium.

[Rochesterfan]

14 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

What baseball team and concert series are you talking about? Honest question. If you're talking about low-level stuff, I'd think you're overestimating their impact.

 

I'm all for the Pegulas leaning into the entertainment side of things. They already own a small music label, but I think a new stadium that's built with concerts in mind could be good for their brand and bring more acts to the area.

 

However, it was pointed out to me in another thread that only 1 major concert currently goes through Buffalo each summer, if at all.

 

The Bisons play downtown and draw 10,000 and and many go out before the games or after on mid day games.  

 

They have done tons of concerts in the parks and Canalside - nearly every Thursday and weekends - and people do the same thing - they ride downtown and then hit bars - hit the concerts and enjoy food and beverages all over downtown. 
 

They do other festivals in Canalside and they have local food and brew set up shop to get people eating and drinking local favorites.

 

The bars also draw tons of kids from the colleges.  There is a rocking nightlife that already exists in the downtown area. 
 

All of these events already support the local markets that are present.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Many on here are looking at this like it's a math problem. It isn't. Good design is about enhancing the very best of the many factors surrounding the development opportunity (budget, location, timing, etc.). Since I'm assuming nobody on here is an actual 'player' in these negotiations, it's really nothing more than jousting with windmills.  We're all just going to have to wait and see who comes to the table.

[BillStime]

13 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

I-495/ Rt. 25 is a nightmare of a traffic corridor. It is a horrible location, for Gillette Stadium. 

I was stoked when the Pats announced that they were moving to Hartford. Seeing the Bills play two hours from here, would've been a great, and easy road trip.

Alas, it was not to be...

 

The Kraft's originally wanted that the stadium built in South Boston but politics got in the way.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I know - what I really hate about that argument is that a stadium is being built either way.  One gives economic impact (albeit most likely not enough to cover the cost). The second give no additional economic impact at all.

 

There are plenty of good arguments for and against a stadium anywhere - but no matter where it goes - things are going to change.  The owners are going to find ways to get more parking money and more in stadium food money - so my guess is for those that do not want downtown because of a lack of tailgating- just watch what you wish for - the tailgating experience in OP very well could change significantly with the new stadium versus what could be done in another location.

 

 

This ^^^,  it’s not just The Pegulas either,  the entire league (owners) are trying to limit / control “tailgating” (liability) so as to profit from the very activity, Tennessee appears to be an excellent example of this outcome.  Go big or Go home…,  to me OP is just a really large parking lot, with zero amenities, if the stadium wasn’t there, no one would give a darn about OP, as it really isn’t a destination for anything outside of going to a football game, and that can be done in Buffalo with far more amenities than OP can ever hope to offer. 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, purple haze said:

The odds are on Orchard Park, but I think the state might actually shock us for once.  The fact downtown keeps coming up, Schumer talking about federal money, etc. is interesting. 
 

The state/county could have hopped on the 1.4 Billion request and called it a day.  Now the acting Governor is talking about a new state study being done when the state completed one years ago.  Seems they’re trying to find a way to go downtown if possible, but a lot of moving parts and money to that.
 

The old Buffalo mentality, i.e. resist change, why we can’t do it, do what’s easiest, live in the past, will see us with a really nice new joint in OP.  OP is cool.  I grew up going out there.  The rock pile was before my time.  A new mentality, i.e., swing big, make it work, on to the future, will see us with a really nice new joint downtown, along with new/expanded roads and rail service (most likely) which benefits the city outside football season.  Either way, I’ll make my yearly pilgrimage to be where the Bills are.
 

  

As others have said.. there's no guarantee that a stadium going downtown will be swinging big and moving on to the Future

 

I was at Heinz Field a few weeks ago and it's nothing special.. it's a heap of concrete downtown... Which was probably built by the lowest bidder

 

Which would happen in Buffalo.. contract is going to the lowest bidder guaranteed.. it's not going to be state of art

[Doc]

25 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Hartford, was simply a Pawn in the political arena. It was never going to happen.

 

Yup.  I was in residency there at the time and I was laughing at all the attendings who were geeked-up over the idea of it happening/looking to jockey for PSL's, etc.  I told them "they're not coming here."

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

The downtown area already has a ton of Bars, restaurants, hotels, breweries, a casino built currently - they all survive right now without the stadium- just with the normal downtown workday crew.  
 

But if 8 times a year for long weekends - you had an additional 15,000+ people downtown using the hotels, breweries, restaurants, etc - to go with the 40 downtown Baseball games and the 40 downtown hockey games and the 15 summer concert series dates - you enhance what is there.

 

The new stadium wouldn’t require all of these things be built - they already exist - it would just give people a place to go.

 

In OP these things are very, very limited - so people come in - bring food and drink - tailgate and spend nothing extra - it is in and out.  
 

The area is anchored and has been in place long before and will survive whether the stadium is built or not.  The question becomes can a unique Nashville style experience be created downtown that could supplement the income of these locations and even bring in more to build something special.

 

Can you use the casino as an tenet to the stadium, can you build or use a brewery with outside access - that on game days also has an in stadium presence?

 

Can you have some of these local restaurants also provide a great game day meal at the stadium?  Can you cross promote to have a Bills/Sabres home weekend package at a hotel with tickets and accommodations?  You might even be able to cross promote if a Bills/Sabres opponent is in common - like when the Bills and Sabres both play in Florida and people travel for a weekend.

 

More companies would be nice, but they do not have to drive anything - everything already exists - the planning just needs to get done and the spacing put into place.

 

I think it’s important to point out that it is not just on game days. I typically come in on Friday and leave Monday. That’s three nights for 8-9 home games, plus hopefully a playoff game or two (forget the lousy preseason games, but a few people hit those too). It might sound like a pittance, but you are now approaching 7-10% of the nights every year with additional traffic and people spending cash. That is NOT insignificant to downtown. Admittedly, I still go to WNY and spend money, mostly in Williamsville, but I do VERY little downtown. 

 

I know I’ll get “we are not Atlanta either”, but the Braves play at Truist Park at The Battery. The Battery surrounding the stadium consists of restaurants and bars and theaters and a couple hotels plus office and retail space. It’s very cool, and worth checking out if you are in town. It’s 65 acres of fun and we go regularly, but check to be sure the Braves aren’t playing because it’s more fun without the baseball crowds, IMO.  On game days people go many hours in advance and enjoy all the amenities. They also stay late to eat, drink and have fun post-game while the traffic thins out. People also come from out of town, even if just a long drive, and stay in the hotels to make a night of it rather than driving home after a big night. A much smaller version of The Battery (even if more informal) may or may not be feasible, but it would drive some traffic. 

 

AGAIN, I’m NOT pushing for downtown, but we get to do this once and I hope they get it right. I’d hate to close my eyes to any possibilities. 

[Einstein]

13 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I think it’s important to point out that it is not just on game days. I typically come in on Friday and leave Monday. That’s three nights for 8-9 home games, plus hopefully a playoff game or two (forget the lousy preseason games, but a few people hit those too). It might sound like a pittance, but you are now approaching 7-10% of the nights every year with additional traffic and people spending cash. That is NOT insignificant to downtown. Admittedly, I still go to WNY and spend money, mostly in Williamsville, but I do VERY little downtown. 

 

I know I’ll get “we are not Atlanta either”, but the Braves play at Truist Park at The Battery. The Battery surrounding the stadium consists of restaurants and bars and theaters and a couple hotels plus office and retail space. It’s very cool, and worth checking out if you are in town. It’s 65 acres of fun and we go regularly, but check to be sure the Braves aren’t playing because it’s more fun without the baseball crowds, IMO.  On game days people go many hours in advance and enjoy all the amenities. They also stay late to eat, drink and have fun post-game while the traffic thins out. People also come from out of town, even if just a long drive, and stay in the hotels to make a night of it rather than driving home after a big night. A much smaller version of The Battery (even if more informal) may or may not be feasible, but it would drive some traffic. 

 

AGAIN, I’m NOT pushing for downtown, but we get to do this once and I hope they get it right. I’d hate to close my eyes to any possibilities. 

 

If you come to the Buffalo area for 3 days regardless, what does it change that the location is downtown. Are downtown dollars more significant than suburban dollars?

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

If you come to the Buffalo area for 3 days regardless, what does it change that the location is downtown. Are downtown dollars more significant than suburban dollars?

 

I was not making an argument for one or the other, just pointing out some facts. My attending does nothing for downtown now. If  it was awesome downtown I just might opt for an extra game a year. If it were downtown, I also might extend a day or two so I can do Williamsville (my old stomping grounds) AND get the downtown experience. There is some discussion about downtown becoming more vital. That was why I mentioned it, and made the full disclosure. 

 

Where the money gets spent doesn’t matter much to me. I guarantee you, it’s not in OP, but it is in WNY. 

[purple haze]

7 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

As others have said.. there's no guarantee that a stadium going downtown will be swinging big and moving on to the Future

 

I was at Heinz Field a few weeks ago and it's nothing special.. it's a heap of concrete downtown... Which was probably built by the lowest bidder

 

Which would happen in Buffalo.. contract is going to the lowest bidder guaranteed.. it's not going to be state of art

You don’t know that.  

 

Swinging big is putting the stadium where other development can be done in the vicinity now or in the future.  That potential development ain’t happening in OP and even if it did makes no difference to the area at large.  Downtown, most likely, comes with  infrastructure improvements that benefit the community year around.

 

Jerry Jones came out advocating for OP. PSE prefers OP.  OP is the likely location and If so, fine.  But downtown could be fine too if the state wants to kick in that extra money.   I’m just beyond tired of hearing Buffalonians constantly talk about why something can’t or shouldn’t happen.   I’m not with that mindset.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, purple haze said:

You don’t know that.  

 

Swinging big is putting the stadium where other development can be done in the vicinity now or in the future.  That potential development ain’t happening in OP and even if it did makes no difference to the area at large.  Downtown, most likely, comes with  infrastructure improvements that benefit the community year around.

 

Jerry Jones came out advocating for OP. PSE prefers OP.  OP is the likely location and If so, fine.  But downtown could be fine too if the state wants to kick in that extra money.   I’m just beyond tired of hearing Buffalonians constantly talk about why something can’t or shouldn’t happen.   I’m not with that mindset.

Listen, I'm not anti-downtown stadium

 

I just lived in Buffalo long enough,to understand the local and state government mindset 

 

And there's just no way they're ponying up 2 billion dollars for a stadium and infrastructure changes to downtown 

 

If they did, that would be awesome

[BillStime]

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

 

This is a much better solution than the projects.

[Blank Stare]

26 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

Cool idea. 

[Patience]

30 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

 

The fact that Ciminelli is throwing his support behind this is significant.  

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

31 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

 

5 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

Cool idea. 

Yeah what's not to like here? Closer to downtown which has its advantages but has way more available land/parking than true downtown sites, meaning that the cost would surely be lower and all of the tailgating people love could still happen. As a bonus, it would help to revitalize the Central Terminal which is a really cool landmark and inject some life into that neighborhood. 

 

I think this might be my favorite idea yet and hope it at least gets considered. 

[That's No Moon]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

Not exactly a fan of this location but... the city keeps percolating.

 

The Buffalo Bills @ The Buffalo Central Terminal

 

That building was built in the wrong location in the first place. I get that it's a pretty building and people like train stations but it was an albatross when it was new and it's not any less of one now. The train station the city needed to keep was the one that was actually downtown, across from where the Aud was. That ship sailed a loooong time ago. 

[PromoTheRobot]

22 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

That building was built in the wrong location in the first place. I get that it's a pretty building and people like train stations but it was an albatross when it was new and it's not any less of one now. The train station the city needed to keep was the one that was actually downtown, across from where the Aud was. That ship sailed a loooong time ago. 

 

I grew up in that neighborhood. We used to play football in the grassy fields along Memorial Drive. It's even worse now. If you did build a stadium there hoping for redevelopment you'd have a very long wait. Then again, the foot of Main, now Canalside, was nothing for a long time too.

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I grew up in that neighborhood. We used to play football in the grassy fields along Memorial Drive. It's even worse now. If you did build a stadium there hoping for redevelopment you'd have a very long wait. Then again, the foot of Main, now Canalside, was nothing for a long time too.

I don't even care about what the neighborhood is like, the bigger issue is that it's an island away from everything and it was built that way on purpose. It's really hard to undo that

[Patience]

2 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

I grew up in that neighborhood. We used to play football in the grassy fields along Memorial Drive. It's even worse now. If you did build a stadium there hoping for redevelopment you'd have a very long wait. Then again, the foot of Main, now Canalside, was nothing for a long time too.

 

My family owned a number of businesses in that neighborhood.  Would love to see it come back. 

[PromoTheRobot]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:52 PM, Einstein said:

 

If you come to the Buffalo area for 3 days regardless, what does it change that the location is downtown. Are downtown dollars more significant than suburban dollars?

 

Well yes. Dollars to the city coffers as opposed to the county. But there is nothing to spend money on in OP other than Big Tree and Danny's.

[That's No Moon]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Well yes. Dollars to the city coffers as opposed to the county. But there is nothing to spend money on in OP other than Big Tree and Danny's.

The city, that really needs the money any way they can get it and yes, it moves some money from the suburbs back into the city.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, Patience said:

 

My family owned a number of businesses in that neighborhood.  Would love to see it come back. 

There was a really nice restaurant on Memorial Dr. near Sweet & Peckham.

[boater]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:01 PM, SoCal Deek said:

Many on here are looking at this like it's a math problem. It isn't. Good design is about enhancing the very best of the many factors surrounding the development opportunity (budget, location, timing, etc.). Since I'm assuming nobody on here is an actual 'player' in these negotiations, it's really nothing more than jousting with windmills.  We're all just going to have to wait and see who comes to the table.

Unfortunately, Erie County legislature has scheduled three public hearings. Can you say circus mode = On?

Edited October 27, 2021 by boater

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, boater said:

Unfortunately, Erie County legislature has scheduled public hearing. Can you say circus mode = On?

I present at these sort of meetings for a living. They’re worthless but they do allow the players to check a box before they do what they were going to do before the hearing….only now with cover.

[Patience]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

I present at these sort of meetings for a living. They’re worthless but they do allow the players to check a box before they do what they were going to do before the hearing….only now with cover.

 

This.  I've represented clients before in some of these.  They will have no impact whatsoever on the process.   

[RiotAct]

15 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Well yes. Dollars to the city coffers as opposed to the county. But there is nothing to spend money on in OP other than Big Tree and Danny's.

that's just not true.

 

What about Taffy’s?!?  900 different milkshake flavors!

[boater]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:38 PM, Augie said:

I typically come in on Friday and leave Monday. That’s three nights for 8-9 home games

You must be loaded. I want to be you. Seriously, I jest. You are the fan the Bills target.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, RiotAct said:

that's just not true.

 

What about Taffy’s?!?  900 different milkshake flavors!

 

And the 7-11.

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, boater said:

You must be loaded. I want to be you. Seriously, I jest. You are the fan the Bills target.

 

It’s my one trip “home” every year, even though I only know one of my friends growing up who still lives there. I enjoy going to all my old neighborhoods and eating at all my old places. It’s a serious treat to me, and I look forward to the opener and one road game a year.

 

It’s been easy with us being in Nashville four straight years, just 4 hours away. No flight or car rental to pay for. As much as I love games in Nashville, I want to see some new cities and venues. A GREAT poll /tread would be where have you been, what did you love or hate, and what cities are on your bucket list. I am far too lazy to make that happen, but I’d be curious to see what might come of that. 

 

 

[Einstein]

58 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Well yes. Dollars to the city coffers as opposed to the county. But there is nothing to spend money on in OP other than Big Tree and Danny's.

 

Why are the cities coffers more important than the counties?

 

More importantly, people do not stay where the Bills play. There is little lodging near the stadium. Many stay downtown, or elsewhere. And they still must eat.

 

Dollars are spent regardless of where the Bills physically move a pigskin about for 60 minutes.

 

.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Einstein