report- Empire State Development downtown stadium proposal

[BillStime]

2 hours ago, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

 

Yeah what's not to like here? Closer to downtown which has its advantages but has way more available land/parking than true downtown sites, meaning that the cost would surely be lower and all of the tailgating people love could still happen. As a bonus, it would help to revitalize the Central Terminal which is a really cool landmark and inject some life into that neighborhood. 

 

I think this might be my favorite idea yet and hope it at least gets considered. 

 

I agree with everything you wrote - Central Terminal > OP.  However, when I think of a downtown stadium (and the incredible game day experiences I have had in Nashville, Seattle, Indy, Baltimore and Pittsburgh, etc.) - I'd prefer it be closer to amenities and hotels.

 

Central Terminal is 3 miles from Canal Side. Perry Projects (assuming that is where the City/State is eyeing) is .7 miles away.

 

Terry's investment is in Canal Side; not CT.

 

 

 

[BillStime]

Roger Goodell says NFL wants Bills 'secure in WNY for generations'

 

Quote

 

The NFL does not have a preference about the location of a new stadium, Goodell said.

 

“I don’t know if the league has a preference,” Goodell said. “My understanding of it is there’s a pretty strong recognition that the current location, or in that area, is the right location. But a lot of that, with my experience with this all over the country, because I’ve been involved in many of them, is that those are decisions that should be made locally, that they should be considered as what the cost of different projects would be, how they’re going to fund those projects, collectively, in a private-public partnership, and also more important, what’s best for that community.

 

“Because ultimately, we look for solutions that are good for the community, as well as the NFL. And that’s what the great public/private partnerships achieve.”

 

 

It's going in OP...

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Why are the cities coffers more important than the counties?

 

More importantly, people do not stay where the Bills play. There is little lodging near the stadium. Many stay downtown, or elsewhere. And they still must eat.

 

Dollars are spent regardless of where the Bills physically move a pigskin about for 60 minutes.

 

.

So why make them drive to OP when they are staying downtown?

49 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

I agree with everything you wrote - Central Terminal > OP.  However, when I think of a downtown stadium (and the incredible game day experiences I have had in Nashville, Seattle, Indy, Baltimore and Pittsburgh, etc.) - I'd prefer it be closer to amenities and hotels.

 

Central Terminal is 3 miles from Canal Side. Perry Projects (assuming that is where the City/State is eyeing) is .7 miles away.

 

Terry's investment is in Canal Side; not CT.

 

 

 

How about parking tailgating fans at Central Terminal and shuttling them downtown by train?

[Einstein]

13 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

So why make them drive to OP when they are staying downtown?

 

Cost, tailgating, infrastructure, parking, etc

[PromoTheRobot]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Cost, tailgating, infrastructure, parking, etc

Ever hear the expression "Penny wise and pound foolish?" That applies here.

[Doc]

10 hours ago, BillStime said:

Roger Goodell says NFL wants Bills 'secure in WNY for generations'

 

 

It's going in OP...

 

I thought so initially.  With the state seemingly wanting to get involved, I'm not so sure anymore.

[SoCal Deek]

Having grown up in WNY but now living in California, I never thought I’d read so much chatter about the need to locate the Bills stadium near hotels. I’d be very interested to see a study of just how many additional hotel rooms are booked on home weekends. Is it really that many? 

[May Day 10]

Im just really hoping that the final product/design goes well above that 60,000 capacity amount.  Id like to see between 65K and 75K

[billsfanmiamioh]

I love how the downtown stadium crowd always dismisses the additional cost and logistics of infrastructure upgrades as something that’s just so easy to overcome. It’s THE reason why a new stadium will be in Orchard Park (unless the state kicks in a boatload of dollars which I doubt). 
 

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Having grown up in WNY but now living in California, I never thought I’d read so much chatter about the need to locate the Bills stadium near hotels. I’d be very interested to see a study of just how many additional hotel rooms are booked on home weekends. Is it really that many? 

 

Theres definitely a significant bump but it’s not like you can’t get a room. I recently changed my hotel from one in Hamburg to the Residence Inn downtown for this weeks game and there was still availability at other downtown hotels for the weekend. 

4 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

Im just really hoping that the final product/design goes well above that 60,000 capacity amount.  Id like to see between 65K and 75K

We don’t need more than 65. Check the secondary market ticket prices for the remaining games. And this is for one of the best teams in the league with a “rabid” fan base. 

[BillStime]

19 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I thought so initially.  With the state seemingly wanting to get involved, I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I hope you're right. You just don't spend a billion plus dollars in Orchard Park with zero amenities and limited transportation options.

[Doc]

26 minutes ago, billsfanmiamioh said:

I love how the downtown stadium crowd always dismisses the additional cost and logistics of infrastructure upgrades as something that’s just so easy to overcome. It’s THE reason why a new stadium will be in Orchard Park (unless the state kicks in a boatload of dollars which I doubt). 

 

I thought the same thing.  Then I heard Schumer say that federal funds could be used for infrastructure (whether true or not, the point is there's talk).  Then potentially having a combined UB stadium would allow for state funds to be used instead of spending double the amount on 2 separate stadiums.  

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Having grown up in WNY but now living in California, I never thought I’d read so much chatter about the need to locate the Bills stadium near hotels. I’d be very interested to see a study of just how many additional hotel rooms are booked on home weekends. Is it really that many? 

 

People have a dream that a downtown stadium will bring in a sudden influx of visitors.

 

Its a similar dream to the fast ferry in Rochester.

[LabattBlue]

I don’t think the stadium is going downtown, but consider how many locals would make a long weekend out of staying downtown if the stadium was within walking distance or a short Uber ride away?

[PromoTheRobot]

43 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

People have a dream that a downtown stadium will bring in a sudden influx of visitors.

 

Its a similar dream to the fast ferry in Rochester.

 

Sure, except the Bills are a proven draw. Fast ferries not so much.

Edited October 27, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Einstein]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Sure, except the Bills are a proven draw. Fast ferries not so much.

 

They’re a proven draw for locals. They are not a proven draw for tourists or out-of-towners. Locals don’t often spend money on hotels. And the bars may make some more cash but it’s only 10 days per year.

[TheFunPolice]

If the Bills built a downtown stadium I wonder if they would try to do a Harbor Center type complex, where they could capitalize on the venue a bit more the rest of the days of the week.

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

They’re a proven draw for locals. They are not a proven draw for tourists or out-of-towners. Locals don’t often spend money on hotels. And the bars may make some more cash but it’s only 10 days per year.

 

Strongly disagree. thousands of fans come from out of town every week. You forget #BillsMafia is worldwide. Just look at this forum.

[BuffaloRebound]

Would Orchard Park even be in consideration for a new stadium if Wilson didn’t decide to put one there 50+ years ago?  As much as we owe to Ralph, I’m sure it was put in Orchard Park because it was the cheapest and easiest option for him to get a new stadium.  

[Einstein]

32 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Strongly disagree. thousands of fans come from out of town every week. You forget #BillsMafia is worldwide. Just look at this forum.

 

Unless someone can point me to a study that indicates otherwise, I believe that the majority of worldwide bills mafia fans choose away games in warm cities and nice areas such as Nashville and Miami and LA in Las Vegas as their game spots.

 

And the ones that do come home a few times per year or even once per year, still need a hotel to stay in. Still need food to put in their belly. They’re still spending dollars in the area. Regardless of where the stadium is physically located.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Strongly disagree. thousands of fans come from out of town every week. You forget #BillsMafia is worldwide. Just look at this forum.

 

Our flight from Chicago to Buffalo for the opener was AT LEAST 60% in Bills gear. Somewhere in the Nashville thread there was a clip of a guy boarding a flight and it looked like maybe 80% of the people had on Bills gear. I’m always surprised by how many people at the tailgate traveled more than an hour or two to be there. Of the few people I know at a tailgate, none are “local”.

 

Good point on the forum. How may people on this board live outside of WNY? The answer would be LOTS! 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

People have a dream that a downtown stadium will bring in a sudden influx of visitors.

 

Its a similar dream to the fast ferry in Rochester.

The fast ferry was doomed from the beginning, it was altogether to large a vessel for the task it was used for, if they had purchased a vehicle and passenger ferry instead of a casino boat it might have had a chance, or not…😁

 

A combined UB and Bills stadium would see more usage on a site than two stand alone stadiums individually, and at much reduced cost compared to potentially building two   Separate stadiums, it would be a cog in the wheel so to speak, not the whole picture, that and the Pegulas have a portfolio of business ventures currently in Buffalo, so it would fall in place nicely from that perspective. I don’t think the Pegulas care which location is picked as long as state local and potentially federal dollars pay for the majority of it.

 

Lets be clear here, the Pegulas can write a check for a new stadium, and still be multi billionaires, they absolutely do not need public monies to build a new stadium, the public money side is a scam through and through. 

[BillStime]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Unless someone can point me to a study that indicates otherwise, I believe that the majority of worldwide bills mafia fans choose away games in warm cities and nice areas such as Nashville and Miami and LA in Las Vegas as their game spots.

 

And the ones that do come home a few times per year or even once per year, still need a hotel to stay in. Still need food to put in their belly. They’re still spending dollars in the area. Regardless of where the stadium is physically located.

 

As you mentioned - worldwide Bills mafia - reinforces that the Bills and its brand is significantly larger than Buffalo and have the potential to be an even larger draw if done right.

 

Build in the city - capitalize on the amenities - let the state partner with the Pegula's on the stadium and the federal government, state/local, and (the cash cow) NY Power Authority partner on the necessary infrastructure (mass transit, on/off ramps/parking) needs to help connect and make the entire region a bigger destination than it already is. Give those with big bucks in Canada to come down - buy those suites and club seats - and spend more dollars in our hotels and restaurants, etc. Things that will never happen in OP.

 

Do it right BUF.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by BillStime

[zonabb]

Not going downtown, period. Everyone here who thinks it is probably thinks other silver bullet ideas work, like a convention center, giving away $750 million to Musk for a factory that under-delivers on jobs and pays zero property tax, tearing down the skyway.... 

 

Nearly with unanimity, researchers and economists routinely slam stupid ideas like publicly-financed stadiums. People hear act like it changes things. It doesn't. Contort yourself into whatever corner you want to... the "it'll boost downtown" or "there's no amenities in OP" or "there's limited transportation options to OP" but the facts remain.... a downtown stadium would cost more to taxpayers and the Pegulas and the amount of money in the region that can and will support the Bills doesn't change the more you spend on a stadium. Meaning...profit doesn't increase. Further, there's no space downtown that doesn't require massive outlays of funds for land acquisition AND likely require eminent domain. Any ED proceeding drags this out, costing more time and way more money. Infrastructure costs skyrocket for a downtown stadium as existing sewer, water, and transportation systems lack the capacity. The idea of a stadium wedged in between I-190 and the Buffalo River is classic Buffalo dystopian thinking that falls in line with decades of bad planning and development schemes. 

 

It won't boost downtown outside of the 8-10 days its used. No one cares about amenities that goes to games...tailgating is the amenity and the culture. And transportation options? For who? Tickets are outrageously expensive, how many low or moderate income households attend games that suggest we need to link the stadium to public transportation? That's not a slam no low income households, it's actually a slam on the outrageous and exclusive costs to attend a game.

 

Book it: Pegulas don't want to fleece the region more than that have to. They know they're getting money, they actually seek to minimize that costs, reduce the debt they care, without having a major negative impact on their revenue, i.e., profit. So the outcome here is crystal clear. 

[TFBillsfan]

I don’t live in Buffalo so my input means less. As a fan that comes regularly to Buffalo to see the Bills, I would love the stadium in downtown Buffalo. It just seems right IMO. I honestly don’t see how traffic will be any worse than trying to leave Orchard Park.  Regardless of your political affiliation I can only wonder if some of the Infrastructure Bill would be allocated to this project. I read the Transportation Secretary has $100 Billion he has personal discretion over to allocate out. 
 

If you’re going to build it downtown now is the time.

[Buffalo716]

8 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

I hope you're right. You just don't spend a billion plus dollars in Orchard Park with zero amenities and limited transportation options.

Buffalo isn't like New York City

 

You can get from downtown Buffalo to any suburb within 20 25 minutes ...  Buffalonians by in large don't care about amenities around the stadium... They want a football stadium

 

Like if you're planning a weekend around the Bills game.. you can hang out downtown and then go 25 minutes to orchard Park to watch the game.. like people have done for 40 years

 

Then you can get the best of the city and the best fan experience in the NFL.. which we will lose if they leave orchard Park

 

 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Buffalo isn't like New York City

 

You can get from downtown Buffalo to any suburb within 20 25 minutes ...  Buffalonians by in large don't care about amenities around the stadium... They want a football stadium

 

Like if you're planning a weekend around the Bills game.. you can hang out downtown and then go 25 minutes to orchard Park to watch the game.. like people have done for 40 years

 

Then you can get the best of the city and the best fan experience in the NFL.. which we will lose if they leave orchard Park

 

 

I hear ya man - I just think a new stadium with smaller occupancy coupled with the anticipated increase in cost per ticket will adversely impact the number of tailgaters = which is all by design.

[LeGOATski]

5 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Would Orchard Park even be in consideration for a new stadium if Wilson didn’t decide to put one there 50+ years ago?  As much as we owe to Ralph, I’m sure it was put in Orchard Park because it was the cheapest and easiest option for him to get a new stadium.  

Whadaya know...it's STILL the cheapest and easiest option.

[Augie]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I thought the same thing.  Then I heard Schumer say that federal funds could be used for infrastructure (whether true or not, the point is there's talk).  Then potentially having a combined UB stadium would allow for state funds to be used instead of spending double the amount on 2 separate stadiums.  

Partnering with UB makes so much sense I hope they can find a way to make it happen. I get UB wanting an on-campus stadium, but it would be such a shame to build TWO stadiums. Might a first class stadium help recruiting? I have no idea what the local or political sentiment is, but for something that gets used so infrequently, I hope a decent compromise can be found to build one and do it right. I don’t know enough about the area to really have an informed opinion, but to a relative outsider like myself it just makes so much sense. Maybe that’s why it does NOT happen?  

12 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Whadaya know...it's STILL the cheapest and easiest option.

 

This is STILL true, no doubt. 

 

I won’t complain either way. Just staying in WNY is all I ever seriously cared about. 

 

 

.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Augie

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

I hear ya man - I just think a new stadium with smaller occupancy coupled with the anticipated increase in cost per ticket will adversely impact the number of tailgaters = which is all by design.

Yeah I just want a new stadium man

 

That'll keep the bills in Buffalo for my children's children

[BuffaloRebound]

13 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Whadaya know...it's STILL the cheapest and easiest option.

Yep.  And it’s a great negotiating tactic for Pegula and the NFL.  If the state, county, and city want it somewhere else Pegula and NFL can say we ain’t paying more than what we would’ve contributed for Orchard Park stadium.  Really quite brilliant.  Pegula and NFL have effectively capped their contribution.  And will be happy with any new stadium.  

[LeGOATski]

 

The Pegulas should just forget about it and pay for their own. I'm sure they can secure other private funding as well.

 

They know how to make money.

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, BillStime said:

 

As you mentioned - worldwide Bills mafia - reinforces that the Bills and its brand is significantly larger than Buffalo and have the potential to be an even larger draw if done right.

 

Build in the city - capitalize on the amenities - let the state partner with the Pegula's on the stadium and the federal government, state/local, and (the cash cow) NY Power Authority partner on the necessary infrastructure (mass transit, on/off ramps/parking) needs to help connect and make the entire region a bigger destination than it already is. Give those with big bucks in Canada to come down - buy those suites and club seats - and spend more dollars in our hotels and restaurants, etc. Things that will never happen in OP.

 

Do it right BUF.

 

 

 

People that come to see the Bills play (out-of-towners) need a place to sleep (hotel) whether the stadium is downtown or OP.

 

They need food (restaurants) whether the stadium is downtown or OP.

 

I can’t think of a single business that would purchase a suite downtown but wouldn’t purchase one 20 minutes away in OP. And even if there was, suites are sold out regardless. You can’t more sell-out an already sold-out.

 

All the “positives” of a downtown stadium exist whether the stadium is downtown or in OP.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

All the “positives” of a downtown stadium exist whether the stadium is downtown or in OP.

 

You may not have been paying attention. There is no great experience to be had in OP other than drinking and eating in a parking lot. Often a very cold, wet parking lot late in the season.  Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the tailgates, but beyond that there’s basically zippo. The Big Tree Inn isn’t going to accommodate us all. 

 

You are being stubborn. Any rational person would admit a downtown stadium DOES have certain advantages or “positives”. Because you don’t want or appreciate them does NOT mean they are not real and would appeal to many others. If you can’t see that, it’s not worth discussing with you. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

 

You may not have been paying attention. There is no great experience to be had in OP other than drinking and eating in a parking lot. Often a very cold, wet parking lot late in the season.  Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE the tailgates, but beyond that there’s basically zippo. The Big Tree Inn isn’t going to accommodate us all. 

 

You are being stubborn. Any rational person would admit a downtown stadium DOES have certain advantages or “positives”. Because you don’t want or appreciate them does NOT mean they are not real and would appeal to many others. If you can’t see that, it’s not worth discussing with you. 

 

“There is no great experience to be had in OP other than drinking and eating…”

 

What great experience do you expect to have in a downtown stadium outside of drinking or eating?

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

“There is no great experience to be had in OP other than drinking and eating…”

 

What great experience do you expect to have in a downtown stadium outside of drinking or eating?

Doing it somewhere nicer than a parking lot with iffy weather. Duh!  That can be good for a few hours, NOT a long weekend. Walking to a game from a nice hotel and NOT fighting traffic trying to get out is also appealing. 

 

You are stuck on your one sided view and getting tiring. Try to be at least a little open minded, you might find it refreshing. Have a nice night. 

 

EDIT: Because I am willing to be out in the iffy weather for 3+ hours to see my Bills play does NOT mean I want to hang out in lousy weather for 2-5 hours to tailgate. I can do that in better conditions and avoid subjecting myself to freezing rain if better options are available nearby. I was mostly on the fence, but the more people argue for OP, the more I question myself. I’m still good either way, but how some people can’t see pros and cons of both sides concerns me greatly. What is wrong with us? It’s really pretty simple. Get your head out of the sand, or stop trolling.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by Augie

[Einstein]

10 minutes ago, Augie said:

Doing it somewhere nicer than a parking lot with iffy weather. Duh!  That can be good for a few hours, NOT a long weekend. Walking to a game from a nice hotel and NOT fighting traffic trying to get out is also appealing. 

 

You are stuck on your one sided view and getting tiring. Try to be at least a little open minded, you might find it refreshing. Have a nice night. 

 

 

The problem is eating and drinking in a parking lot with iffy weather.

 

Therefore you would rather eat and drink in a packed-to-the-gills bar before walking (in the iffy weather) to the outdoor stadium (where there is also iffy weather).

 

I’m open to alternative viewpoints when a good argument is made for one.

[Augie]

Where is @DC Tom when you need him? 

[cba fan]

13 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Having grown up in WNY but now living in California, I never thought I’d read so much chatter about the need to locate the Bills stadium near hotels. I’d be very interested to see a study of just how many additional hotel rooms are booked on home weekends. Is it really that many? 

they are always full well in advance and with prices much much higher. I paid 270 for a "Motel" a few miles from Highmark that was jacked from it's usual $47 a night.

Go on any hotel booking site and punch in Buffalo on Bills weekends then compare pricing on non Bills weekends. It is startling.

 

They do it because demand is there and people pay it.

13 hours ago, billsfanmiamioh said:

I love how the downtown stadium crowd always dismisses the additional cost and logistics of infrastructure upgrades as something that’s just so easy to overcome. It’s THE reason why a new stadium will be in Orchard Park (unless the state kicks in a boatload of dollars which I doubt). 
 

 

Theres definitely a significant bump but it’s not like you can’t get a room. I recently changed my hotel from one in Hamburg to the Residence Inn downtown for this weeks game and there was still availability at other downtown hotels for the weekend. 

We don’t need more than 65. Check the secondary market ticket prices for the remaining games. And this is for one of the best teams in the league with a “rabid” fan base. 

you lose home field advantage if you go 60k. Must maintain 70k at least.

Check Soldier Field mistake on the lake sad deal. Smallest in league at 61k = no crowd effect. Sad because Bears fans would fill a 100k stadium.

[purple haze]

10 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Unless someone can point me to a study that indicates otherwise, I believe that the majority of worldwide bills mafia fans choose away games in warm cities and nice areas such as Nashville and Miami and LA in Las Vegas as their game spots.

 

And the ones that do come home a few times per year or even once per year, still need a hotel to stay in. Still need food to put in their belly. They’re still spending dollars in the area. Regardless of where the stadium is physically located.

Why do you believe that?  Where’s your study?   I would bet it’s the opposite If they’re actually from WNY. Fans who are from other places, I could see choosing a road game.  But most of the Bills fans I meet are from the region or have family ties to the region and want to go home.

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Why do you believe that?  Where’s your study?   I would bet it’s the opposite If they’re actually from WNY. Fans who are from other places, I could see choosing a road game.  But most of the Bills fans I meet are from the region or have family ties to the region and want to go home.

 

Just my experience when talking to people. YMMV.