Raiders vs Chargers MNF Game thread

[CapeBreton]

Pretty easy to say this now but what was Miami thinking drafting Tua? Obviously the fans were dying for Tua so they gave them what they wanted but Tua has a weak arm and serious durability issues but they still took him over Herbert who has amazing traits but wasn’t labeled as a leader. Anyways I’m just glad Herbert is not in our division. 

[QCity]

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

[Big Blitz]

17 minutes ago, QCity said:

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

 

 

 

Trying to think of a rookie QB that walked into a better situation that started essentially day 1.

 

Can't.  

[billsbackto81]

27 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

By all means, feel free to compare them this year. 

 

I'll also state again as I already have....im completely happy with Allen thus far, I just think Herbert is better. 

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

[QCity]

6 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Trying to think of a rookie QB that walked into a better situation that started essentially day 1.

 

Can't.  

 

Yeah, that's just a ridiculous statement. Again, he wasn't even supposed to start. Anthony Lynn was his coach and you wouldn't even know who his OC was without Goolging it (the great Shane Steichen). 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, QCity said:

As of today Herbert is not at Allen's level, that seems like a silly argument.

 

But I'm trying to think of rookie QB in the last 7-8 years that's looked better at this stage and I'm coming up blank. Mahomes had a year to sit on the bench and learn. It didn't truly click for Allen until year 3. Murray is just starting to come into his own in year 3 also. The rookie QB class this year is getting absolutely wrecked. And to top it off, he wasn't even supposed to start his rookie year (Tyrod did, lol), so he didn't even get the benefit of running with the 1's in practice. It's just so difficult for a rookie QB to come in and play right away in this era. Impressive stuff, and when Herbert get more experience he's going to be scary.

What makes you say Herbert isn't at Allen's level? Josh's legs are better but other than that I think it's pretty close. Both are outstanding young qbs.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

I think you are confusing and mudding the arguments. Yes, Herbert went into a better situation than Josh and others. Still that doesn't mitigant his talent or performance. It's not far to use the talent around him as an excuse that lessens his talent. I see Herbert as very close to Allen's level. He was very good against the Chiefs and the Raiders. Make some great reads and throws, stayed cool in the pocket, make some big 4th down conversions, and looked like a leader with great confidence. 

[billsbackto81]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think you are confusing and mudding the arguments. Yes, Herbert went into a better situation than Josh and others. Still that doesn't mitigant his talent or performance. It's not far to use the talent around him as an excuse that lessens his talent. I see Herbert as very close to Allen's level. He was very good against the Chiefs and the Raiders. Make some great reads and throws, stayed cool in the pocket, make some big 4th down conversions, and looked like a leader with great confidence. 

You're right in the sense that if the individual has talent it will be evident regardless of the presence of talent or lack thereof. But I do feel you're mistaken if you think that not having quality players around you won't accelerate your development as a QB. How's Sam Darnold doing now that he's on a squad with good skill players on both sides of the ball? He looks like a totally different player now that he's off that dumpster fire of a team in New Jersey. How do think Herbert would be doing on the Jets? I'm sure he'd show glimpses of promise, but success? Doubt it.

 

Herbert is very good and at this stage and it's fair to say he's farther along than Allen was in his 2nd year. He also has the benefit the Bills had last year as an under the radar team that no one took seriously until they snuck up on everybody. I'm not stamping "Elite" status upon him until he makes the post season and wins a couple games. His arrow is definitely pointing up though. 👍 Glad he's not in the AFCE.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

You're right in the sense that if the individual has talent it will be evident regardless of the presence of talent or lack thereof. But I do feel you're mistaken if you think that not having quality players around you won't accelerate your development as a QB. How's Sam Darnold doing now that he's on a squad with good skill players on both sides of the ball? He looks like a totally different player now that he's off that dumpster fire of a team in New Jersey. How do think Herbert would be doing on the Jets? I'm sure he'd show glimpses of promise, but success? Doubt it.

 

Herbert is very good and at this stage and it's fair to say he's farther along than Allen was in his 2nd year. He also has the benefit the Bills had last year as an under the radar team that no one took seriously until they snuck up on everybody. I'm not stamping "Elite" status upon him until he makes the post season and wins a couple games. His arrow is definitely pointing up though. 👍 Glad he's not in the AFCE.

Good response. 👍

[newcam2012]

No doubt team talent can help or hurt a Qbs development. You have cited valid examples. However, a mediocre QB with a very talented team will never be elite or a franchise QB. I think that's the distinction I'm trying to make. Herbert looks elite but its too early for me to declare it. 

[gobills404]

 

[cd1]

4 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

You can't compare QB's like Mahomes, Mayfield, Jackson, and yes Herbert to someone like Josh Allen. They all were drafted and stepped into already established quality rosters ready to contend from the jump. Imagine if Allen had Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Jarvis Landry, OBJ to throw to as a rookie. How about being able to hand it off to Nick Chubb, Hunt, Ekeler, Ingram, Edwards? Or having a Bosa, Garrett, Derwin James or any Ravens top defender?

Allen had Kelvin Benjamin, Robert Foster and Zay Jones at WR. Frank Gore, Chris Ivory and an older McCoy at RB. Charles Clay and Jason Croom at TE.🤣

 

This is what sets Allen apart from the others. You felt and kinda knew he was going to be special even before there was any real talent on the team. Imagine how much farther along he would be if he stepped into a quality roster as a rookie like Herbert, Jackson and Mayfield?

 

This is why I liken Allen to Tarzan. As the saying goes, No Man Started Off With Less. FTR: I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

Also -  How many of the above started college ball at the Community College level ( ie an extreme deficit in quality team and COACHING )?

 

All of these players did not start the race at the same starting line.

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, QCity said:

 

Yeah, that's just a ridiculous statement. Again, he wasn't even supposed to start. Anthony Lynn was his coach and you wouldn't even know who his OC was without Goolging it (the great Shane Steichen). 

 

And last year they had zero, and I mean zero, offensive line. Indeed my concern with Herbert last year was that he would learn bad mechanical habits in an effort to overcome the total lack of protection he was being offered. 

[GunnerBill]

Tuesday morning reflections:

 

- I have been pretty sure that the AFC Superbowl contenders came down to Kansas City, Buffalo and Cleveland, but I am really close to adding the Chargers to that list. And it is not just because of Justin Herbert. It is because of that defense. Man they are fast and aggressive. Brandon Staley is one of the best young defensive minds in the game;

 

- Herbert is a really talented Quarterback and he was efficient last night but some of the hype I have read this morning is a bit over top. He dinked and dunked efficiently, he made good reads and he had three touchdown tosses - the one to Cook particularly impressive, but he had some misses on plays that were there down the field too. He has had more impressive games than this one for sure;

 

- You know where you win football games? In the trenches. LAC knew their offensive line was a problem in 2020. The upgrades are paying dividends in both the passing game and the running game;

 

- I think it is mainly on play calling, but it might also be a bit of Carr's reads at the line, but why, oh why do the Raiders only ever throw down the field when it becomes an absolute necessity? I raised this after the Ravens game too when they didn't get Ruggs or Edwards involved until the final 2 minutes of regulation. The first half everything was short and it allowed the Chargers to creep up. I know the protection wasn't great but you still have to occasionally threaten over the top otherwise you become so simple to defend against. Why draft Henry Ruggs and then fail to use him? Once they started to get him involved they came into the game and some underneath stuff opened up for Waller and Jacobs;

 

- Jon Gruden's reign with the Raiders has not been the tire fire some predicted. They are one game over .500 since the start of 2019 but these clunkers that they throw in where the whole team just looks overmatched for a half or even a full game are killers. Yesterday reminded me of their beatdown in Atlanta last year and there are just too many of these days. I have to believe some of that is on coaching. Too often they just look unprepared to play.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by GunnerBill

[dollars 2 donuts]

5 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

… I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

 

Tua

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by dollars 2 donuts

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Lol, you people are hilarious. 

 

God forbid you acknowledge the quality Qb play from the team in the thread specifically designed to talk about it. 

 

You must hate Allen if you think another Qb is better...lmao. 

 

Not enough to love our quarterback. We must run every other quarterback in the league down. No idea where the desire to do this comes from. 

 

I disagree with you about Herbert being better than Allen by the way, but I agree this board has an obsession with tearing other quarterbacks down even when they are good. 

[GunnerBill]

5 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I think Herbert is an outstanding young QB and easily the best QB from his draft class.    

 

Easily the best? I dunno. Joe Burrow is pretty darn good. And the situation he walked into was definitely comparable with Allen's if not worse. And because the Bengals are idiots they still can't protect him. Herbert is the #1 from that class so far, but when you consider the context around them (which I agree you have to when comparing Allen and Burrow to guys who got drafted in better spots) I think Burrow is a pretty close second. I just fear for Burrow because Cincy is Cincy. But had he been drafted by the Chargers I think he could be matching Herbert right now. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by GunnerBill

[BananaB]

8 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (2020)

PFWA All-Rookie Team (2020)

William V. Campbell Trophy (2019)

2020 Senior Bowl MVP

2020 Rose Bowl Offensive MVP

3x Academic All-American (2017–2019)[1]

NFL records

Most total TDs by a rookie quarterback: 36

Most passing TDs by a rookie quarterback: 31

Most completions by a rookie quarterback: 396

Most 300-yard games by a rookie quarterback: 8

 

 

Yea, he is. 

Two different situations. Not saying Allen would match those stats if he had the luxury of going to a similar situation, he wouldn’t he was by far way more raw coming out of college. 
Throwing to Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin behind a terrible oline is a bit different then Kennan Allen, Mike Williams and Hunter Henry. 
 

To be honest I haven’t  seen much improvement from Hebert first game to his last. Which could be a factor down the line when players start changing. When he signs a big contract and they gotta make cuts and manage the budget better. 
 

I’ll take Allen, despite the talent around him he has proven to make the players around better. Jay Jones, John Brown, Robert foster, Beasley and Diggs all have had the best year of their career with him throwing them the ball. We have also seen major improvements from year to year in his play. Pocket presence, accuracy and decisions. Sky is still the limit for this guy.

 

You drool about all the rookie records though, Cleveland did the same a few years ago

Edited October 5, 2021 by BananaB

[JMF2006]

Not to take anything away from this fine young QB...But.....

 

I think Herbert has had a way better supporting cast for his first two years than Josh had.

 

 In year three the Bills finally got Josh a true #1 receiver and a half decent line.

 

Its nice that the league is getting a good influx of young talented QB's it was much needed with Both Mannings gone along with Brees and sooner rather than later Brady ,Ryan and Rodgers.

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Easily the best? I dunno. Joe Burrow is pretty darn good. And the situation he walked into was definitely comparable with Allen's if not worse. And because the Bengals are idiots they still can't protect him. Herbert is the #1 from that class so far, but when you consider the context around them (which I agree you have to when comparing Allen and Burrow to guys who got drafted in better spots) I think Burrow is a pretty close second. I just fear for Burrow because Cincy is Cincy. But had he been drafted by the Chargers I think he could be matching Herbert right now. 

Fair point GB. Burrow may end up like David Carr if Cincy doesn't step up and get him protected. Herbert just looks the part granted surrounded with more skill. Herbert like Josh just look built for the long haul. Durability is critical for today's QB and though Burrow isn't slight by any measure but he'll be up against it,  kinda like Tua and Miami's O line. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by billsbackto81

[YoloinOhio]

11 hours ago, buffalo2218 said:

Was a bit surprised Baldy didn't throw in Allen's bounce to the outside on that 4th down conversion

 

8 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I told some friends this a few weeks ago… but Herbert could end up being the best QB of this “generation” of QB’s— better than even Mahomes. 

 

Great blend of poise, accuracy, smarts, release, etc.

Kyler Murray is playing better then either one IMO 

[starrymessenger]

To me there are many similarities between Allen and Herbert, each a monster QB, but probably as their careers progress we will begin to better see the differences.

Although Herbert is said to go through his progressions with great speed, as a quick and dirty preliminary comment I get the impression that Allen has shown more ability to anticipate the likely development of live action as its happening. Its winds up being a timing and ball placement issue, both important components of accuracy, which is ironic given that accuracy was supposed to be Allen's achilles heal.

Herbert of course is very accurate but I think he relies more on his and his receivers height/length to throw over smaller DBs from the pocket. I've never seen Herbert make a TD throw like Allen did to Diggs to the left corner of the end zone last year or the exact same throw he made to Sanders in the right corner of the end zone this year (at least I haven't seen it yet). This ability is most evident when Allen has to improvise off a broken play but its also a factor when throwing from the pocket or RPOs. So I think that Allen has shown more arm talent than Herbert so far but its early days and there isn't much to go on. I wouldn't be surprised if both of them surpass PM in time. 

[BananaB]

1 hour ago, JMF2006 said:

Not to take anything away from this fine young QB...But.....

 

I think Herbert has had a way better supporting cast for his first two years than Josh had.

 

 In year three the Bills finally got Josh a true #1 receiver and a half decent line.

 

Its nice that the league is getting a good influx of young talented QB's it was much needed with Both Mannings gone along with Brees and sooner rather than later Brady ,Ryan and Rodgers.

Bills drafted Josh then gutted the O completely and he was forced to learn while they built around him. Big difference between Hebert and the Chargers

Edited October 5, 2021 by BananaB

[JMF2006]

Just now, BananaB said:

Bills drafted Josh then gutted the O completely and he was forced to learn while they built around him. Big difference between Hebert and the Chargers

 

There really wasn't much to gut  

 

A LT who missed more games than he started and WR the Bills reached for.

[muppy]

9 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Chargers are for real.  Super balanced team.  Great defense and a balanced offense.  Staley was a great hire too.  Glad we avoid them during the regular season.

all this is true. But...as a player for the chargers, how deflating to be playing at HOME and the stands be 70% silver and black.? SMH

 

I dunno. No home field advantage would suck bad. Its hard to even think that way as a bills fan. I mean we ARE the 12th man! Raider fans and we have that in common.  Both fanbases huge and rabid.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Muppy

[TwistofFate]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Kyler Murray is playing better then either one IMO 

That was a great play. 

[jkeerie]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not enough to love our quarterback. We must run every other quarterback in the league down. No idea where the desire to do this comes from. 

 

I disagree with you about Herbert being better than Allen by the way, but I agree this board has an obsession with tearing other quarterbacks down even when they are good. 

Actually...no one was running Herbert down.  Everyone agrees that Herbert is an outstanding young QB and is playing really well.  This whole narrative started because of Schefter's comment putting Herbert in the Hall of Fame and the dismissal of Josh Allen as not being in the same conversation as Herbert or Mahomes.  So folks were defending Josh.  I think everyone of us can agree that the AFC especially has its share of outstanding young QBs that are collectively raising the bar for QB play.  And then there is Kyler Murray in the NFC who is playing lights out right now.

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

3 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Actually...no one was running Herbert down.  Everyone agrees that Herbert is an outstanding young QB and is playing really well.  This whole narrative started because of Schefter's comment putting Herbert in the Hall of Fame and the dismissal of Josh Allen as not being in the same conversation as Herbert or Mahomes.  So folks were defending Josh.  I think everyone of us can agree that the AFC especially has its share of outstanding young QBs that are collectively raising the bar for QB play.  And then there is Kyler Murray in the NFC who is playing lights out right now.

 

Well said!

 

[dollars 2 donuts]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not enough to love our quarterback. We must run every other quarterback in the league down. No idea where the desire to do this comes from. 

 

I disagree with you about Herbert being better than Allen by the way, but I agree this board has an obsession with tearing other quarterbacks down even when they are good. 

 

 

You know what the weird thing is, Gunner?  I generally love the QBs in this League right now, and especially the AFC.

 

Don't get me wrong, I HATE that there are so many good QBs in the AFC, but man o man, come on!  When you are eagerly awaiting a Thursday night game between the Bengals and Jags because it is Burrows vs Lawrence and you walk away not disappointed you know things are good, QB wise, in this League.

Edited October 5, 2021 by dollars 2 donuts

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

Actually...no one was running Herbert down.  Everyone agrees that Herbert is an outstanding young QB and is playing really well.  This whole narrative started because of Schefter's comment putting Herbert in the Hall of Fame and the dismissal of Josh Allen as not being in the same conversation as Herbert or Mahomes.  So folks were defending Josh.  I think everyone of us can agree that the AFC especially has its share of outstanding young QBs that are collectively raising the bar for QB play.  And then there is Kyler Murray in the NFC who is playing lights out right now.

 

Herbert looks solid to me - but not a first ballot hall of famer (Really Adam Schefter... really!).  Keenan allen is a safety valve, and they do a ton of designed passes to him and ekeler/jackson.  Almost half of his passing yards are YAC.

 

This is the right way to do it with a younger QB though, ball out quick and take shots when you need to.  He's looked good when he needed to drive the ball, but that style of offense will tend to punt if they get behind the sticks.  

 

His air yards per pass attempt are actually lower this year than last, and it probably has to do with the healthy ekeler for this entire stretch while he missed time a year ago.  He also has a average pocket time of like 1.7 seconds, so he is getting rid of the ball quickly.  

 

All in all, the offense is designed for him to get it out quick and avoid some of the pitfalls younger QBs tend to run into.  He has the size and athleticism still, and a live arm.  He just tends to use it more for tight windows and scrambles than the highlight reel plays like wilson, allen, mahomes, murray, etc.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

After tonight a second year guy who's not even being talked about as an MVP, will be better than or equal to Allen in nearly every single passing Stat. 

Ive given plenty of praise to Allen, you can search my post history. 

The bottom line is Herbert in year two looks phenomenal. 

 

Herbert looked very good last year and looks better this year. 

Herbert is a fine young QB. 

The Dolphins are looking dumber by the day to draft Tua over Herbert.

 

As far as your posting history, let's check it out. 

 

I searched on your screenname and "Allen".  Should bring up that "plenty of praise", Right?

Stand and Deliver. 

 

OH WAIT!  IT DOESN'T!

 

You were "ecstatic" we drafted Jake Fromm last May because you thought Allen was a bust and expected Fromm to replace him.  Let's have a look:

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6520011

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6519720

Quote

...in depth analytics on franchise Qbs says Allen is a bust. Im just happy that if that data is accurate we have another prospect waiting in the wings. Chicago wasted no time moving on from Trubisky.  They declined his 5th year, brought in a solid vet, and will have a competition this year.   I see a similar fate here next year with Allen and Fromm.

Quote

I hoped Allen would succeed and end this Qb drought.  But I'd be willing to bet anything Allen will look terrible this year.  By terrible I mean, more of the same.  Wild throws, missing wide open recievers, glued to his first to second reads, terrible foot work and drops, holding the ball too long, and bad ball placement on his receivers.  (.....) Enter Fromm.   A proven winning quarterback and three-year starter in the toughest division in college football. A quarterback who has thrown more passes against top defenses then any other quarterback in the draft....

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-6518295

Quote

I can show TONS of highlights of Josh Allen not even able to hit the broad side of a barn, so who cares about his arm strength?  How many deep passes and outs did Allen wiff on this past year?  TONS.  He was one of the worst passers in the NFL, that is a fact. 

I'm not even close to sold on Allen, as every single in depth, meaningful statistic shows he is going to fail.

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6519720

Again predicting Fromm >Allen:

Quote

[Fromm] He's definitely a more polished passer than Allen and i don't even think it's close.

 

You're clearly not just citing stats.  You're repeatedly stating your personal belief that Allen will look terrible, is going to fail, is not as good of a passer by Fromm, etc etc. 

 

It had nothing whatsoever to do with his surrounding cast his rookie season and even in 2019 where we had no #1 WR and a TE who dropped 1 of 5 passes thrown at him.

 

Now let's look for that "plenty of praise" during and after Allen had a phenomenal, MVP-like season last year.  After the Bills win over Las Vegas we learned that the outcome of a team game is actually not all on the QB but involves the quality of the cast around him (may we discuss Allen's cast his rookie season and that in 2019 he had a rookie TE who dropped 20% ,no #1 WR, and a "meh" run game?):

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227379-qb-derek-carr-sick-of-losing-after-bills-loss/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767009

Quote

It takes more than a Qb my man. I'm extremely surprised and happy with what we are doing, we are clicking everywhere on offense, but as you can see this year, it's the whole package that's needed to succeed.  From Qb play, WR play, right down to the oline. 

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227379-qb-derek-carr-sick-of-losing-after-bills-loss/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767032

Quote

One team [the Raiders] has a superior supporting cast, one doesn't. 

 

No one is knocking Allen, but it isn't all him.  There are 10 other guys out there executing out there...as a team. Until this year, Allen was the weakest link.  Now that he's hitting on all cylinders, we look like a freaking juggernaut. 

 

Or it could be the coach.

I guess Losman, Manuel, and Darnold would look just like Allen if they had better coaching.

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227393-what-happens-if-you-flip-flop-darnold-and-allen/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767086

Quote

Darnold and Allen are pretty solid proof of how important great coaching and a solid front office are in Qb development.  Makes me wonder how many Qbs our

staff has destroyed over the years...Losman, Manuel, etc. 

 

Allen wasn't looking good, it was all on him, he was a bust, gonna fail, be replaced by Fromm.

Allen looking good, now the supporting cast and coaching matter (they do, point is you weren't considering that when assessing his rookie and sophomore play)

 

And that's it.  Not cherry picking here.  Searching on your name, and Allen, that's ALL I can find between May 2020 and now.  Just those two quotes above.

 

So....the Verdict is In after searching your posting history. 

1) As "plenty of praise" that's total Weak Sauce.  The praise is nowhere near as loud and reiterated as the disrespect was.

2) If you've been giving Allen "plenty of praise", you ain't done it using his name (Allen) and here

3) Your ability to compare QB is called into question by your assessment that Fromm would replace bust Allen

 

 

@Lieutenant Aldo Raine, would you kindly provide Mr Twist with that Apology form?  Or don't bother...I think we've addressed his claim adequately.

[CincyBillsFan]

I think Herbert has received more praise on a Bills message board then Allen gets on other teams message boards.  The push back comes when people talk about Herbert being better then Allen.  And then when posters on 2BD push back folks yell "homers".  It's kind of funny.

 

Right now Kyler Murry is probably playing best at QB and is in the early lead for MVP.  But last year at this time Allen & Wilson were at the top of the heap competing for MVP.  Allen went into a 4 game slump (likely injury related) and then rebounded strongly to have a great season and finished 2nd in the MVP voting.  Wilson faded away.  Bottom line is there's a long season ahead of us and a lot can happen.

 

 

[BaaadThingsMan]

Herbert is the real deal. He'll be in the conversation with Allen, Mahomes, Murray, Burrows etc as top QBs for years IMO

Edited October 5, 2021 by BaaadThingsMan

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, jkeerie said:

Actually...no one was running Herbert down.  Everyone agrees that Herbert is an outstanding young QB and is playing really well.  This whole narrative started because of Schefter's comment putting Herbert in the Hall of Fame and the dismissal of Josh Allen as not being in the same conversation as Herbert or Mahomes.  So folks were defending Josh.  I think everyone of us can agree that the AFC especially has its share of outstanding young QBs that are collectively raising the bar for QB play.  And then there is Kyler Murray in the NFC who is playing lights out right now.

 

What about the posts listing all the things he hasn't done? I call that running down. 

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

You know what the weird thing is, Gunner?  I generally love the QBs in this League right now, and especially the AFC.

 

Don't get me wrong, I HATE that there are so many good QBs in the AFC, but man o man, come on!  When you are eagerly awaiting a Thursday night game between the Bengals and Jags because it is Burrows vs Lawrence and you walk away not disappointed you know things are good, QB wise, in this League.

 

The QB play in the league for the most part is pretty good and what is fascinating compared to 15 years ago is the different styles too. 

[Pokebball]

11 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year (2020)

PFWA All-Rookie Team (2020)

William V. Campbell Trophy (2019)

2020 Senior Bowl MVP

2020 Rose Bowl Offensive MVP

3x Academic All-American (2017–2019)[1]

NFL records

Most total TDs by a rookie quarterback: 36

Most passing TDs by a rookie quarterback: 31

Most completions by a rookie quarterback: 396

Most 300-yard games by a rookie quarterback: 8

 

 

Yea, he is. 

I think you're looking for the Miami board

10 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Trying to think of a rookie QB that walked into a better situation that started essentially day 1.

 

Can't.  

The supporting cast around Herbert is dang good.  Comparing to other young QBs, Mahomes landed in a good spot too.  The rest not so much. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2021-nfl-predictions/quarterbacks/

 

A reasonably objective view point shared above:

 

Basically, you can read their ELO QB system (kinda like the chess system of ranking players) which takes much into consideration or read below:

 

Mahomes 269

Allen 253

Murray 250

Prescott 244

Brady 236

Rodgers 234

 

Big Drop off

 

Cousins 214

Jackson 206

Herbert 204

R. Wilson 199

Stafford 199

Carr 193

 

Drop Off

 

Burrow 159

 

Of course we can project some of these guys, but where everyone is coming from and how they'd played recently, it's a pretty reasonable list. Reminder: (System is NOT just based on this season only)

[Pokebball]

8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I think you are confusing and mudding the arguments. Yes, Herbert went into a better situation than Josh and others. Still that doesn't mitigant his talent or performance. It's not far to use the talent around him as an excuse that lessens his talent. I see Herbert as very close to Allen's level. He was very good against the Chiefs and the Raiders. Make some great reads and throws, stayed cool in the pocket, make some big 4th down conversions, and looked like a leader with great confidence. 

Not sure I agree with this take.  OK, I know I don't agree with this take.  Execution is a team game and the execution around any player certainly allows that player to execute in a better way.  Additionally, what do they say, steel sharpens steel.  Having good coaches and good players in the program supports much better and deeper growth of all of them.

[TwistofFate]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Herbert looked very good last year and looks better this year. 

Herbert is a fine young QB. 

The Dolphins are looking dumber by the day to draft Tua over Herbert.

 

As far as your posting history, let's check it out. 

 

I searched on your screenname and "Allen".  Should bring up that "plenty of praise", Right?

Stand and Deliver. 

 

OH WAIT!  IT DOESN'T!

 

You were "ecstatic" we drafted Jake Fromm last May because you thought Allen was a bust and expected Fromm to replace him.  Let's have a look:

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6520011

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6519720

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-6518295

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/224668-senior-bowl-executive-director-jim-nagy-on-jake-fromm/page/6/?tab=comments#comment-6519720

Again predicting Fromm >Allen:

 

You're clearly not just citing stats.  You're repeatedly stating your personal belief that Allen will look terrible, is going to fail, is not as good of a passer by Fromm, etc etc. 

 

It had nothing whatsoever to do with his surrounding cast his rookie season and even in 2019 where we had no #1 WR and a TE who dropped 1 of 5 passes thrown at him.

 

Now let's look for that "plenty of praise" during and after Allen had a phenomenal, MVP-like season last year.  After the Bills win over Las Vegas we learned that the outcome of a team game is actually not all on the QB but involves the quality of the cast around him (may we discuss Allen's cast his rookie season and that in 2019 he had a rookie TE who dropped 20% ,no #1 WR, and a "meh" run game?):

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227379-qb-derek-carr-sick-of-losing-after-bills-loss/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767009

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227379-qb-derek-carr-sick-of-losing-after-bills-loss/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767032

 

Or it could be the coach.

I guess Losman, Manuel, and Darnold would look just like Allen if they had better coaching.

https://www.twobillsdrive.com/community/topic/227393-what-happens-if-you-flip-flop-darnold-and-allen/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-6767086

 

Allen wasn't looking good, it was all on him, he was a bust, gonna fail, be replaced by Fromm.

Allen looking good, now the supporting cast and coaching matter (they do, point is you weren't considering that when assessing his rookie and sophomore play)

 

And that's it.  Not cherry picking here.  Searching on your name, and Allen, that's ALL I can find between May 2020 and now.  Just those two quotes above.

 

So....the Verdict is In after searching your posting history. 

1) As "plenty of praise" that's total Weak Sauce.  The praise is nowhere near as loud and reiterated as the disrespect was.

2) If you've been giving Allen "plenty of praise", you ain't done it using his name (Allen) and here

3) Your ability to compare QB is called into question by your assessment that Fromm would replace bust Allen

 

 

@Lieutenant Aldo Raine, would you kindly provide Mr Twist with that Apology form?  Or don't bother...I think we've addressed his claim adequately.

Try searching harder.  Like using the word....Josh.

 

I've been critical of him, but I had every right to. He was terrible his first two years and it's not even arguable. 

 

He lit it up last year and I shot him the praises, accepted his growth and even ponied up money to a board member because he exceeded all expectations and I lost a bet. 

 

This year Josh was weak in his first two games and steadily increased play to resemble his former year. I'm happy and excited for this team and glad Josh is performing the way he should as a first rounder with a big contract, however...I do believe Herbert is better and will end up better overall in terms of performance. 

 

I've made the Marino / Kelly comparison, would I rather have the better Qb or the Super Bowls...Super Bowls obviously. 

 

If you want to cherry pick, at least be honest. 

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2021-nfl-predictions/quarterbacks/

 

A reasonably objective view point shared above:

 

Basically, you can read their ELO QB system (kinda like the chess system of ranking players) which takes much into consideration or read below:

 

Mahomes 269

Allen 253

Murray 250

Prescott 244

Brady 236

Rodgers 234

 

Big Drop off

 

Cousins 214

Jackson 206

Herbert 204

R. Wilson 199

Stafford 199

Carr 193

 

Drop Off

 

Burrow 159

 

Of course we can project some of these guys, but where everyone is coming from and how they'd played recently, it's a pretty reasonable list. Reminder: (System is NOT just based on this season only)

 

If Big Ben is better than Burrow it must be taking into account play from 2018 when Joe Burrow was starting for the first time and LSU and Ben was last a serviceable starter in the NFL. Ben was hurt in 2019, played 6 decent games and then sucked in 2020 and has sucked in 2021. The system must have a gremlin in it. Or a Steeler fan. 

[billybob71]

comparing Allen to other QBs is futile and just a grass is greener waste of time in my opinion, Allen is perfect QB for Buffalo and Buffalo a perfect spot for Allen, I dont want any other QB and really dont give a rats a** if some other QB has slightly better stats etc. Allen is a baller, hard worker, extremely talented, exciting as hell to watch, and a great kid. After all the QB purgatory we have been through as a fan base why the hell would some of you want to spend your time trying to prove your old negative takes on him and always nit pick him and compare him to everyone else? ENJOY IT we got a great QB and this narrative that he was awful his first 2 years is complete BS dont know what some people were watching, the kid was exciting to watch from the get go and his potential was glaringly obvious.