Week 4: Texans at Bills

[LeGOATski]

52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Dude, if you look at the stats overall, the odds of drafting a guy who can play in the NFL - not a superstar, just a guy who can Do His Job - are roughly 50% in the top 3rd of the first round.  Falls to about 30% in the bottom 2/3 and top of the 2nd, then drops from there.

 

Lots of reasons for this.

 

What do you consider a “bust”, especially at DT?

 

 

Right.

 

I reserve the word "bust" for guys that fail out of the league after their first contract.

 

Oliver seems like a career starter. "Disappointing" I can agree with, but I wasn't a fan of the pick when it happened.

[BillsFan619]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

What? This is totally baseless. What other Bills do I think are busts? Also, even if I did think that (which I certainly don't), that shouldn't change the reaction to the fact that Oliver is a bust. People just don't want to hear it because it's negative.

So Ed Oliver is performing up to the standard of a top-10 pick, you think? I never said he had to be Donald, but being just a serviceable player isn't good enough.

The point of my post is the negativity.

 

I can’t speak for everyone, but it’s not that people can’t handle critique, it’s the consistent negativity and extremes. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I see from other posts, I’m not the only one pointing it out.

 

Just something to think about, bro.

Edited October 2, 2021 by BillsFan619

[JohninMinn.]

On the bubble:

1)Singletary

2)Oliver

3)Edmunds

[wjag]

5 hours ago, JohninMinn. said:

On the bubble:

1)Singletary

2)Oliver

3)Edmunds

I’d go with

 

1) Watson

2) Mills

3) Taylor

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

11 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

I'm not sure there is a way for him to appear any dumber. When you are the bottom, there is nowhere left to go.

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

[eball]

Ruh-roh, Shaggy.  When people start citing their IQ scores in defense of their posts, things have gone off the rails.  

 

[WotAGuy]

6 minutes ago, eball said:

Ruh-roh, Shaggy.  When people start citing their IQ scores in defense of their posts, things have gone off the rails.  

 

I scored a 69!  I’m not sure what my IQ is though. 

[SWATeam]

7 minutes ago, eball said:

Ruh-roh, Shaggy.  When people start citing their IQ scores in defense of their posts, things have gone off the rails.  

 

I'll withhold opinion until I find out what kind of car he drives

[WotAGuy]

7 hours ago, BillsFan619 said:

The point of my post is the negativity.

 

I can’t speak for everyone, but it’s not that people can’t handle critique, it’s the consistent negativity and extremes. Maybe I’m wrong, but from what I see from other posts, I’m not the only one pointing it out.

 

Just something to think about, bro.

I think it’s also the manner of posting. Making a negative pronouncement like “He’s a bust” is best backed up with some analysis of why that opinion is valid. Especially on a forum designed to celebrate the fandom of a team that many have close ties to, through family or otherwise. 
 

But attention-seeking is also at play. 

[WotAGuy]

9 hours ago, Logic said:

People are so easily offended sometimes.

I'm a relentlessly optimistic person when it comes to the Bills. Every now and then, I point out that the team made a personnel move that hurt them or that the QB played a subpar game, and you'd think I personally spat on the Queen of England. 

It's not as if I made a separate thread going on at length about the issue. I simply mentioned, in the midst of a conversation about guard depth, that it would be nice to have Teller or someone other than Cody Ford. Heaven forbid somebody be momentarily critical of our beloved Buffalo Bills! THE HORROR!

 

No one seems to be saying you can’t be critical, but your point about Teller is such MMQBing that it’s pointless. It’s like bemoaning the fact we didn’t draft Brady in the first five rounds of that draft. 
 

It’s like when you flip a coin and you pick heads and it comes up tails. “You shoulda picked heads”. Well, duh. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

16 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

I think it’s also the manner of posting. Making a negative pronouncement like “He’s a bust” is best backed up with some analysis of why that opinion is valid. Especially on a forum designed to celebrate the fandom of a team that many have close ties to, through family or otherwise. 
 

But attention-seeking is also at play. 

There's certainly no attention seeking. I often defend myself when criticized though.

 

On Oliver, it would seem obvious to the average fan that he's not a great player. You don't need complex analysis to determine that when it's right before your eyes. It's like someone being asked to prove that water is wet. As a top-10 pick, his impact should be self evident.

[SWATeam]

48 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

Everyone knows that the true sign of high intelligence is having to prove it to others!

 

I hope that Gifted Giuseppe continues to grace us with his very advanced football takes!

[JGMcD2]

55 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

Ahhh the misunderstood genius who is always so objective… so much so that they never use stats to back anything up… just their opinions! 
 

Staying on topic for this week… I can’t wait to watch McDermott’s defense struggle against Davis Mills this Sunday… because like you said a few weeks back… he’s not that great against rookie QBs! Good thing at least one of us uses objectivity! 😉

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

How much ya bench?

9 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

Everyone knows that the true sign of high intelligence is having to prove it to others!

 

I hope that Gifted Giuseppe continues to grace us with his very advanced football takes!

He once argued with me that McDermott struggles against rookie QB’s.  I then told him he’s won his last 5 against rookie QB’s and only gives up like 14 ppg.  But that fact wasn’t strong enough evidence.

[WotAGuy]

30 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

There's certainly no attention seeking. I often defend myself when criticized though.

 

On Oliver, it would seem obvious to the average fan that he's not a great player. You don't need complex analysis to determine that when it's right before your eyes. It's like someone being asked to prove that water is wet. As a top-10 pick, his impact should be self evident.

So he’s moved up from “bust” to “not a great player”?  

 

He’s getting better as we speak!

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

13 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

I’ve wanted Sanders for 3 years now, but I had no idea how cool he is, how much he truly brings to the team. Fantastic interview as well.

I was dead wrong about Sanders. I pinned him as a diva and sort of an anti-process guy. That view stemmed from him bad mouthing Ben R for no reason when he left Pittsburgh. 

[Behindenemylines]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How much ya bench?

He once argued with me that McDermott struggles against rookie QB’s.  I then told him he’s won his last 5 against rookie QB’s and only gives up like 14 ppg.  But that fact wasn’t strong enough evidence.

Fact and reason have no place here!  

[FTLBillsfan]

I remember a time a couple years ago when the Bills were on the other end of a huge point spread. It was when visiting the Vikings. We all, and the Vikings fans know what happened then. Big point spreads like this can be scary.

[Nineforty]

37 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I was dead wrong about Sanders. I pinned him as a diva and sort of an anti-process guy. That view stemmed from him bad mouthing Ben R for no reason when he left Pittsburgh. 

 

For no reason known to you, that is.

[nucci]

46 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I was dead wrong about Sanders. I pinned him as a diva and sort of an anti-process guy. That view stemmed from him bad mouthing Ben R for no reason when he left Pittsburgh. 

hate the word diva but there's no evidence he is one. Has played well everywhere he's been and doesn't cause problems

[clayboy54]

6 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

I’m quite sure you have a big d*** too, but why does such a smart guy find it necessary to tell us all about it?

Edited October 2, 2021 by Chandler#81
Moderator Edit for language

[Rochesterfan]

16 hours ago, FLFan said:

 

Correct.  The absolutely most useless type of analysis is hindsight analysis.  Literally anyone can pick the right answer after the question has already been answered.  

 

16 hours ago, syhuang said:

 

In the meantime, if Bills didn't draft Leif Larsen and drafted the QB picked 5 picks later .......

 

 

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

The other issue with hindsight analysis is it is all based upon a series of events that then does not happen with the change.

 

If the Bills (or anyone else) draft Brady - does he ever become the Tom Brady.  Probably not.  Most teams give very little look to a sixth round underdeveloped QB, but he got his chance and ran with it with the perfect team to allow him time to develop and become who he is.

 

Wyatt Teller on the Bills - never solves our guard problem.  He played 1/2 a season with us and was Ike or Cody level.  We traded him to Cleveland and that first season he was one of the worst starting guards in the league.  He was where everyone complains about Cody Ford being.  He couldn’t pass block at all and was barely passable as a run blocker.

 

Teller changed when the coaching staff changed and they went to a heavy run formation and run blocking scheme.  I doubt Wyatt Teller on the Bills ever develops in that same way because the technique and strength he had and built was in the run blocking game and as a pass first team - we would not have asked nor developed those characteristics.  
 

It is the dumbest thing ever to say can you image If we had never traded Teller - yes I can - he would have been cut if he hadn’t been traded because he was not better than the top 10 linemen here at the time.  Good for him to develop, but even better for him that he got on a team that happened to change staffs to his perfect fit.

 

🤦‍♂️

Edited October 2, 2021 by Rochesterfan

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

30 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

 

For no reason known to you, that is.

there is no reason to go to a new team and publicly bad mouth your prior QB, no matter how bad he is. I think E Sanders had since expressed remorse for making those public statements, and he is obviously an older and more mature player at this point. 

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

2 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

Time to make TBD a better place for myself... another genius (excuse me! NEAR GENIUS) goes on the ignore list. 

[Not at the table Karlos]

1 hour ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

I was dead wrong about Sanders. I pinned him as a diva and sort of an anti-process guy. That view stemmed from him bad mouthing Ben R for no reason when he left Pittsburgh. 

Bad mouthing big rapey is actually a sign of good character. 

[Nineforty]

34 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

there is no reason to go to a new team and publicly bad mouth your prior QB, no matter how bad he is. I think E Sanders had since expressed remorse for making those public statements, and he is obviously an older and more mature player at this point. 

that's fair if that is how you feel.

 

I just read this article, and I have no problem with E Sanders saying what he said. And neither does he. 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/27/emmanuel-sanders-on-ben-roethlisberger-that-bridge-was-burnt/

 

 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

How much ya bench?

He once argued with me that McDermott struggles against rookie QB’s.  I then told him he’s won his last 5 against rookie QB’s and only gives up like 14 ppg.  But that fact wasn’t strong enough evidence.

Did I say he struggled or that he just doesn't dominate them like you'd expect? I know I said he usually does win. At any rate, that wasn't my best argument.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

12 minutes ago, Nineforty said:

that's fair if that is how you feel.

 

I just read this article, and I have no problem with E Sanders saying what he said. And neither does he. 

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/27/emmanuel-sanders-on-ben-roethlisberger-that-bridge-was-burnt/

 

 

I think this proves my point a little. he wanted to go back to Pittsburgh but couldn’t because he publicly insulted the QB. No matter how you spin it, that comment was a dumb and gratuitous move.  I suspect he regrets it in hindsight. But I guess we can agree to disagree. 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

5 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

So he’s moved up from “bust” to “not a great player”?  

 

He’s getting better as we speak!

To be a top-10 pick and not a great player is, in my opinion, a bust. You certainly draft in that position expecting a cornerstone/building block piece.

4 hours ago, clayboy54 said:

I’m quite sure you have a big d*** too, but why does such a smart guy find it necessary to tell us all about it?

I didn't until people insulted my intelligence. Then I have a right to defend myself.

[teef]

3 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Thanks; I appreciate that.

 

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top. I believe the Stanford-Binet model was used for scoring (attached below).

 

What's really super interesting to me is that one can say exactly the same thing both here and on Twitter, and the two collective responses are completely different. This really is a tough crowd of unconditional fans who think their job is to support and defend the team and players without objectivity.

 

You didn’t.  You didn’t just do this!   

2 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

There's certainly no attention seeking. I often defend myself when criticized though.

 

On Oliver, it would seem obvious to the average fan that he's not a great player. You don't need complex analysis to determine that when it's right before your eyes. It's like someone being asked to prove that water is wet. As a top-10 pick, his impact should be self evident.

Dude, your attention seeking is now through the roof.  Do you really think people don’t see through it?   You wanted a response, posted an absurd post, and had to re-quote yourself because you didn’t get the reaction you wanted.  You’re like the girl who acts drunk at the party. 

[JGMcD2]

30 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Did I say he struggled or that he just doesn't dominate them like you'd expect? I know I said he usually does win. At any rate, that wasn't my best argument.

Because it wasn't rooted in any fact... it was something you made up off the top of your head. 

 

You are all upset and claim the majority of people on this board are incapable of being objective... yet there was zero objectivity in your claim. It was rooted in opinion. 

29 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

To be a top-10 pick and not a great player is, in my opinion, a bust. You certainly draft in that position expecting a cornerstone/building block piece.

Again... here is an opinion... that's not objective. Find a reputable source and their definition of what a bust is and then make your argument based on that. 

 

I personally don't have an issue with you having an opinion... nor do I have an issue with you striving for people to be objective.

 

The issue is you're taking your opinion, the word objective and conflating them. 

 

You're not a dumb guy, you have some great posts, just hold yourself to the same standard that you're trying to hold everyone else to. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by JGMcD2

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

 

Absolutely correct.

 

The other issue with hindsight analysis is it is all based upon a series of events that then does not happen with the change.

 

If the Bills (or anyone else) draft Brady - does he ever become the Tom Brady.  Probably not.  Most teams give very little look to a sixth round underdeveloped QB, but he got his chance and ran with it with the perfect team to allow him time to develop and become who he is.

 

Wyatt Teller on the Bills - never solves our guard problem.  He played 1/2 a season with us and was Ike or Cody level.  We traded him to Cleveland and that first season he was one of the worst starting guards in the league.  He was where everyone complains about Cody Ford being.  He couldn’t pass block at all and was barely passable as a run blocker.

 

Teller changed when the coaching staff changed and they went to a heavy run formation and run blocking scheme.  I doubt Wyatt Teller on the Bills ever develops in that same way because the technique and strength he had and built was in the run blocking game and as a pass first team - we would not have asked nor developed those characteristics.  
 

It is the dumbest thing ever to say can you image If we had never traded Teller - yes I can - he would have been cut if he hadn’t been traded because he was not better than the top 10 linemen here at the time.  Good for him to develop, but even better for him that he got on a team that happened to change staffs to his perfect fit.

 

🤦‍♂️

Sorry not buying this.  It cannot possibly be this difficult to find a professional guard who fits their “scheme.”  Teller is clearly good enough to play in any scheme; Ford is so bad he’d bomb out of any scheme.  The more likely scenario is that Beane has an issue with evaluating interior linemen.  Could also be an issue with the coaching staff and scouts not being on the same page but what should be the easiest position in the NFL to fill has been a constant weakness for this group.

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I subjected myself to a real IQ test once, and I scored in the first category down from the top

 

[Royale with Cheese]

51 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

Did I say he struggled or that he just doesn't dominate them like you'd expect? I know I said he usually does win. At any rate, that wasn't my best argument.

 

Your exact words were "he doesn't have a good history against rookie QB's".

 

Then I showed you the scores in the last 5 times he's faced rookies.  So basically you were 100% wrong but then tried to save face by saying "well he didn't dominate like you expect"....lol.

43 minutes ago, teef said:

You didn’t.  You didn’t just do this!   

Dude, your attention seeking is now through the roof.  Do you really think people don’t see through it?   You wanted a response, posted an absurd post, and had to re-quote yourself because you didn’t get the reaction you wanted.  You’re like the girl who acts drunk at the party. 

 

"Girls, this weed is so good, I'm so high!".

 

"Karen, you've been smoking oregano".  

 

Remember this thread?

 

 

[stevewin]

3 hours ago, SWATeam said:

I'll withhold opinion until I find out what kind of car he drives

And how many high level meetings

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sorry not buying this.  It cannot possibly be this difficult to find a professional guard who fits their “scheme.”  Teller is clearly good enough to play in any scheme; Ford is so bad he’d bomb out of any scheme.  The more likely scenario is that Beane has an issue with evaluating interior linemen.  Could also be an issue with the coaching staff and scouts not being on the same page but what should be the easiest position in the NFL to fill has been a constant weakness for this group.

 

NFL guard especially is hard to find now.  I watched a segment a few years ago how there's a crisis in offensive lineman, in particular the guard position.

This is why a good NFL guard now makes insane money....there's not a lot of them.

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ct-spt-nfl-guards-20180810-story.html

[clayboy54]

1 hour ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

I didn't until people insulted my intelligence. Then I have a right to defend myself.

C’mon, you know what it’s like on here as well as anybody. Every hot take has a bunch of morons calling the OP an idiot. That’s part of why this board is so enjoyable to read. If you don’t want expose yourself to that, you really ought not post such strong convictions. Nobody cares whether or not you, or I are geniuses or fools. We’re j’ust a bunch of passionate fans having fun.

Edited October 2, 2021 by clayboy54

[Rochesterfan]

10 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Sorry not buying this.  It cannot possibly be this difficult to find a professional guard who fits their “scheme.”  Teller is clearly good enough to play in any scheme; Ford is so bad he’d bomb out of any scheme.  The more likely scenario is that Beane has an issue with evaluating interior linemen.  Could also be an issue with the coaching staff and scouts not being on the same page but what should be the easiest position in the NFL to fill has been a constant weakness for this group.

 

Then explain this - why in his first year in Cleveland was he one of the Leagues worst guards?

 

If he was so great - why did the Cleveland fan base want to move on.

 

It is one thing to argue this if he had gone to Cleveland and immediately showed anything, but he didn’t.  It was not until they changed schemes and got a run first head coach that he excelled.

 

He started 1/2 a season in Buffalo and was adequate at run blocking, but was Cody Ford level pass blocking.  The team then brought in Long, Spain, and Mongo to fill the o-line and Teller was not better than them at the time.  It wasn’t an issue evaluating him - he just wasn’t a good pass blocker.

 

He gets traded to Cleveland in the final year of a regime and the start of the Mayfield era and that OL is a disaster.  Mayfield had no time to throw - they had terrible guard and tackle play.  Then in comes a new coach and a new philosophy and he thrives.  He needed both the playing time and the scheme to develop and in Buffalo he was not going to get that.  
 

Do you honestly think if the Bills don’t trade him and they mange to put him on the PS that he develops the same way?

 

Maybe you do believe it, but based upon the fact that year 1 in Cleveland showed little - I think it is more likely that with the playing time, a new scheme, and improved coaching to focus on what he does best - allowed him to become a better version of himself and being 10th on a depth chart here was not changing that.

 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Your exact words were "he doesn't have a good history against rookie QB's".

I can vouch for this... exact words that was posted. I attempted to engage in a conversation with him about it and didn't get a response if I remember right. I was there!!! Yay!! I was a part of something!!!